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Posted: 4/25/2014 8:45:17 PM EDT
Thoughts?
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 8:52:54 PM EDT
Whats wrong with training with 9mm and carrying 9mm?
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 8:54:15 PM EDT
Makes sense. To save even more money, why not just train with a .22?
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 8:55:27 PM EDT
BB's are where it's at. No shortage of BB's at my Walmart. You can put an eye out with one, too.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 8:55:42 PM EDT
Can't be much worse than training with cheap stuff and carrying +P.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 8:58:20 PM EDT
There's a little bit of difference in muzzle flash and recoil impulse. Muzzle flash. wow.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 9:01:36 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By csrevenant:
Whats wrong with training with 9mm and carrying 9mm?
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Originally Posted By csrevenant:
Whats wrong with training with 9mm and carrying 9mm?


Don't ask me, I'm here to learn.

Originally Posted By RDP:
Makes sense. To save even more money, why not just train with a .22?

Can't find .22 anymore. At least not at reasonable prices.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 9:08:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2014 9:10:49 PM EDT by hiyaboa]
.40 and .357 sig feel pretty similar and .40 is almost as cheap as 9mm.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 9:12:35 PM EDT
I can't see how shooting more would be a bad thing.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 9:15:25 PM EDT
Watch Hickok45's recent video on the .357 Sig / .40.

Why the hell would anyone train with one caliber and then carry another?
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 9:16:45 PM EDT
My soon to be brother in law does this. He trains with 9mm because it's cheap and carries a .357 sig! Because of the foot pounds of energy it produces. Just curious if anyone here does this?

I shot his .357 sig for the first time last weekend, and it was quite snappy compared to 9mm. Nothing I thought that would change the way you shot with practice.

Of course, if you ever had to draw in a real situation, the last thing you will be thinking of is recoil (I'm assuming, because when I have harvested deer and elk, I never notice recoil or the noise).
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 9:17:58 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By hiyaboa:
.40 and .357 sig feel pretty similar and .40 is almost as cheap as 9mm.
View Quote


.40 doesn't feel much like 9mm
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 9:19:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
Watch Hickok45's recent video on the .357 Sig / .40.

Why the hell would anyone train with one caliber and then carry another?
View Quote

I did watch that video, I was doing paperwork though, so I was a bit distracted. I'll have to watch it again.

Link Posted: 4/25/2014 9:23:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By benw8887:
My soon to be brother in law does this. He trains with 9mm because it's cheap and carries a .357 sig! Because of the foot pounds of energy it produces. Just curious if anyone here does this?

I shot his .357 sig for the first time last weekend, and it was quite snappy compared to 9mm. Nothing I thought that would change the way you shot with practice.

Of course, if you ever had to draw in a real situation, the last thing you will be thinking of is recoil (I'm assuming, because when I have harvested deer and elk, I never notice recoil or the noise).
View Quote


Yeah sounds like your bro got some bad advice bro, 9mm and .357 sig have a very different feel. .40 is closest in power and size to the .357 sig (basically a .40 cartridge necked to 9mm) but I guarantee if cheapness is your objective, you can find .22 rounds much cheaper than .40 or 9mm, might just have to order online sometimes and buy in bulk when you find it
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 9:24:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Skibane:


.40 doesn't feel much like 9mm
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Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By hiyaboa:
.40 and .357 sig feel pretty similar and .40 is almost as cheap as 9mm.


.40 doesn't feel much like 9mm


Exactly.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 10:07:37 PM EDT
I guess some people are more picky than me... I shoot everything from 22lr to 44 mag and all pistol shooting benefits pistol shooting. In other words, I don't care what caliber I shoot, the fundamentals are the same. Go shoot.

On a side note, the 9mm with modern bullets is just fine as defensive round; you really don't need another caliber.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 10:12:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2014 10:13:31 PM EDT by helogene]
WHY are you shooting .357 SIG??

Do you have more money than sense???

I understand that you're "TRAINING" with a 9mm, and carrying a .357 Sig....

AGAIN.....

WHY???

What gun are you running in .357 Sig?

Most guns you can do a barrel swap, and drop in a .40 cal barrel. GLOCK is really easy to do. Mag's are the same....

WHY ARE YOU USING .357 SIG?

What advantage do you "THINK" you're getting over 9mm, 9mm+, 9mm+P+????

What advantage do you "THINK" you're getting over .40 S&W???
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 10:42:21 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By RDP:
Makes sense. To save even more money, why not just train with a .22?
View Quote


I think the idea is to save money not spend more.
Link Posted: 4/25/2014 10:56:50 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By helogene:
WHY are you shooting .357 SIG??

Do you have more money than sense???

I understand that you're "TRAINING" with a 9mm, and carrying a .357 Sig....

AGAIN.....

WHY???

What gun are you running in .357 Sig?

Most guns you can do a barrel swap, and drop in a .40 cal barrel. GLOCK is really easy to do. Mag's are the same....

WHY ARE YOU USING .357 SIG?

What advantage do you "THINK" you're getting over 9mm, 9mm+, 9mm+P+????

What advantage do you "THINK" you're getting over .40 S&W???
View Quote

This..
My Sig P2340 came with a .40 barrel. I picked up a 9mm, and .357sig barrel.
I mainly shoot around with the .40 barrel, and carry with the .357sig, but having the option of 9mm is nice as well if and when you can find the ammo. its been scarce around here, almost as bad as .22lr
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 12:52:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2014 12:53:06 AM EDT by Jeff93]
Stick with 9mm, .40, and .45 for carry and practice IMO. Practicing with .22LR is okay. If you can afford it, you should really shoot what you carry though.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 1:11:30 AM EDT
I would be pretty cautious about taking advice from anyone who says sub caliber practice is not helpful.

Many of the higher level shooters all over the world train with 22's and even airsoft. 9mm is much cheaper than 357 sig so as long as it is in the same platform it makes great sense to me.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 1:18:36 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
I would be pretty cautious about taking advice from anyone who says sub caliber practice is not helpful.

Many of the higher level shooters all over the world train with 22's and even airsoft. 9mm is much cheaper than 357 sig so as long as it is in the same platform it makes great sense to me.
View Quote

It absolutely is helpful, but if you're just being cheap, you're cheating yourself out of good practice. I personally don't see a use for .357 Sig, but if it is what OP wants, more power to him.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 1:28:32 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Jeff93:

It absolutely is helpful, but if you're just being cheap, you're cheating yourself out of good practice. I personally don't see a use for .357 Sig, but if it is what OP wants, more power to him.
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Originally Posted By Jeff93:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
I would be pretty cautious about taking advice from anyone who says sub caliber practice is not helpful.

Many of the higher level shooters all over the world train with 22's and even airsoft. 9mm is much cheaper than 357 sig so as long as it is in the same platform it makes great sense to me.

It absolutely is helpful, but if you're just being cheap, you're cheating yourself out of good practice. I personally don't see a use for .357 Sig, but if it is what OP wants, more power to him.


What do you mean cheating yourself out of good practice???
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 1:32:38 AM EDT
No, I don't think we've talked about this yet.


Because it is stupid and makes no sense.


Why would anyone do this? WTF??


^^The above are my thoughts on the issue.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 1:49:22 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By sizzler:
No, I don't think we've talked about this yet.


Because it is stupid and makes no sense.


Why would anyone do this? WTF??


^^The above are my thoughts on the issue.
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Makes no sense to save money
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 2:40:48 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:


Makes no sense to save money
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By sizzler:
No, I don't think we've talked about this yet.


Because it is stupid and makes no sense.


Why would anyone do this? WTF??


^^The above are my thoughts on the issue.


Makes no sense to save money


I just don't understand the .357 sig I guess. This constant chasing of the magic autopistol round seems ridiculous. It fills a niche that doesn't really exist, IMO, and it's just MO. As if someday, some combination of lead mass + velocity is going to be an instant deathray out of a self defense oriented handgun.

Train with 9mm, carry a 9mm. Nothing wrong with 9mm. Or don't. I don't really care.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 2:47:17 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:


What do you mean cheating yourself out of good practice???
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By Jeff93:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
I would be pretty cautious about taking advice from anyone who says sub caliber practice is not helpful.

Many of the higher level shooters all over the world train with 22's and even airsoft. 9mm is much cheaper than 357 sig so as long as it is in the same platform it makes great sense to me.

It absolutely is helpful, but if you're just being cheap, you're cheating yourself out of good practice. I personally don't see a use for .357 Sig, but if it is what OP wants, more power to him.


What do you mean cheating yourself out of good practice???

I'm saying, shoot what you carry, if you can afford it. If you took a carbine or handgun course, why would you use a lesser caliber than what you would use in a real situation? The only excuse for this would be, if you can't afford it.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 2:50:39 AM EDT
imo 9mm can give so close to the same terminal performance that the increased recoil, flash, and noise are not worth even the slight decrease in capacity.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 3:31:47 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By leatherface_y2k:
Watch Hickok45's recent video on the .357 Sig / .40.

Why the hell would anyone train with one caliber and then carry another?
View Quote


9mm and .357 Sig are the same caliber.

I train with 9mm and carry .357 Sig. I like the Sig round but can't afford to train with it.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 3:36:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2014 3:37:39 AM EDT by fla556guy]
Just carry the 9. Get rid of the extra case diameter, get more bullets, get the same penetration (pretty much), have less recoil, easier to find ammo.

Link Posted: 4/26/2014 3:41:45 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Just carry the 9. Get rid of the extra case diameter, get more bullets, get the same penetration (pretty much), have less recoil, easier to find ammo.

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/handgun_gel_comparison1.jpg
View Quote
sigh....


I wish people would not post that anymore. :(
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 3:51:26 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Madcap72:
sigh....


I wish people would not post that anymore. :(
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Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Just carry the 9. Get rid of the extra case diameter, get more bullets, get the same penetration (pretty much), have less recoil, easier to find ammo.

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/handgun_gel_comparison1.jpg
sigh....


I wish people would not post that anymore. :(



Why not?
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 3:57:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2014 4:00:04 AM EDT by fla556guy]
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Originally Posted By Bones45:



Why not?
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Originally Posted By Bones45:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Just carry the 9. Get rid of the extra case diameter, get more bullets, get the same penetration (pretty much), have less recoil, easier to find ammo.

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/handgun_gel_comparison1.jpg
sigh....


I wish people would not post that anymore. :(



Why not?


It evinces the equality in performance of the various pistol calibers more than the end-user wants it to.......

ETA: ends the 9mm v. .45 debate.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 3:59:52 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Bones45:



Why not?
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Originally Posted By Bones45:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Just carry the 9. Get rid of the extra case diameter, get more bullets, get the same penetration (pretty much), have less recoil, easier to find ammo.

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/handgun_gel_comparison1.jpg
sigh....


I wish people would not post that anymore. :(



Why not?

All it shows is that a number of bullets can go an undefined distance past a minimum standard.

The image contains no pertinent data, and discounts the entire envelope of penetration that can be accomplished by all the calibers shown with modern ammo.


Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:02:26 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By csrevenant:
Whats wrong with training with 9mm and carrying 9mm?
View Quote


That's what I'm wondering.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:02:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2014 4:07:34 AM EDT by fla556guy]
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Originally Posted By Madcap72:

All it shows is that a number of bullets can go an undefined distance past a minimum standard.

The image contains no pertinent data, and discounts the entire envelope of penetration that can be accomplished by all the calibers shown with modern ammo.


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Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By Bones45:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Just carry the 9. Get rid of the extra case diameter, get more bullets, get the same penetration (pretty much), have less recoil, easier to find ammo.

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/handgun_gel_comparison1.jpg
sigh....


I wish people would not post that anymore. :(



Why not?

All it shows is that a number of bullets can go an undefined distance past a minimum standard.

The image contains no pertinent data, and discounts the entire envelope of penetration that can be accomplished by all the calibers shown with modern ammo.




I'd be willing to bet that new defensive ammo is still put up to the FBI penetration test. I'd also be willing to say that all of the popular calibers have had the same improvements to bullet design and loading, providing approximately equal improvements across the board.

Sure, it's not the "best" test.....but what do you have that shows any gain of .357sig over 9mm in application?

Also, if you are looking for "wound channel" to help with a defensive action with a pistol.....remember that pistols suck unless you get a CNS hit. That's why I care about 12" of penetration. I don't really give a hoot about the temp. cavity. I care that I can strike things that will prevent further attack.

Also, if you think about why hollow points are used in defensive ammo, it's because they don't OVERPENETRATE as bad. This thought could lead one to surmise that they are loaded on purpose to achieve approximately the same penetration.....leading to the similarities seen.

Still supports that there is little difference in performance of pistol calibers from 9mm-.45acp
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:03:00 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By fla556guy:


It evinces the equality in performance of the various pistol calibers more than the end-user wants it to.......

ETA: ends the 9mm v. .45 debate.
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Originally Posted By fla556guy:
snip


It evinces the equality in performance of the various pistol calibers more than the end-user wants it to.......

ETA: ends the 9mm v. .45 debate.
Bull


What brand rounds were fired?

What year was that conducted?

Was the gel calibrated correctly?

So on and so forth.

Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:03:37 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Madcap72:

All it shows is that a number of bullets can go an undefined distance past a minimum standard.

The image contains no pertinent data, and discounts the entire envelope of penetration that can be accomplished by all the calibers shown with modern ammo.
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Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By Bones45:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Just carry the 9. Get rid of the extra case diameter, get more bullets, get the same penetration (pretty much), have less recoil, easier to find ammo.

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/handgun_gel_comparison1.jpg
sigh....


I wish people would not post that anymore. :(



Why not?

All it shows is that a number of bullets can go an undefined distance past a minimum standard.

The image contains no pertinent data, and discounts the entire envelope of penetration that can be accomplished by all the calibers shown with modern ammo.


That, and it is old as fuck.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:03:40 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Skibane:


.40 doesn't feel much like 9mm
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Originally Posted By Skibane:
Originally Posted By hiyaboa:
.40 and .357 sig feel pretty similar and .40 is almost as cheap as 9mm.


.40 doesn't feel much like 9mm


I must really suck at pistols because I shoot my 19 next to my 23 and I can't tell them apart.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:04:11 AM EDT
It is suicide, obviously he has a death wish.

During his next gunfight against multiple attackers he is going to be distracted by the flash and recoil, then the guys who are behind him will be able to get him instead of him taking them out.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:11:06 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Jeff93:


That, and it is old as fuck.
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Originally Posted By Jeff93:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By Bones45:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Just carry the 9. Get rid of the extra case diameter, get more bullets, get the same penetration (pretty much), have less recoil, easier to find ammo.

http://www.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/handgun_gel_comparison1.jpg
sigh....


I wish people would not post that anymore. :(



Why not?

All it shows is that a number of bullets can go an undefined distance past a minimum standard.

The image contains no pertinent data, and discounts the entire envelope of penetration that can be accomplished by all the calibers shown with modern ammo.


That, and it is old as fuck.
That it is.



IIRC and I'm digging deep to remember the specifics late 80's early 90's. There was a big tech thread that a lot of info came out about it a few years back.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:14:41 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
I would be pretty cautious about taking advice from anyone who says sub caliber practice is not helpful.

Many of the higher level shooters all over the world train with 22's and even airsoft. 9mm is much cheaper than 357 sig so as long as it is in the same platform it makes great sense to me.
View Quote


I came here to post that.

Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:15:07 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By csrevenant:
Whats wrong with training with 9mm and carrying 9mm?
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Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:15:09 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Madcap72:
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So, 9mm bullet design advancement stagnated while every other caliber improved?

Ha.

It's more logical to say that they all improved ~ the same amount because I doubt that speer is going to advance .45, .40, and 9mm .357sig rounds, but leave 9mm alone. I just don't see it.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:18:26 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By fla556guy:


So, 9mm bullet design advancement stagnated while every other caliber improved?

Ha.

It's more logical to say that they all improved ~ the same amount because I doubt that speer is going to advance .45, .40, and 9mm .357sig rounds, but leave 9mm alone. I just don't see it.
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Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:


So, 9mm bullet design advancement stagnated while every other caliber improved?

Ha.

It's more logical to say that they all improved ~ the same amount because I doubt that speer is going to advance .45, .40, and 9mm .357sig rounds, but leave 9mm alone. I just don't see it.



Try not to read so far into things.



That chart is old and out of date...


Not going to get roped into a side debate about what's going on now.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:27:53 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Madcap72:



Try not to read so far into things.



That chart is old and out of date...


Not going to get roped into a side debate about what's going on now.
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Originally Posted By Madcap72:
Originally Posted By fla556guy:
Originally Posted By Madcap72:


So, 9mm bullet design advancement stagnated while every other caliber improved?

Ha.

It's more logical to say that they all improved ~ the same amount because I doubt that speer is going to advance .45, .40, and 9mm .357sig rounds, but leave 9mm alone. I just don't see it.



Try not to read so far into things.



That chart is old and out of date...


Not going to get roped into a side debate about what's going on now.


OK, you can keep your opinion, and I'll keep mine.

Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:31:16 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By RDP:
Makes sense. To save even more money, why not just train with a .22?
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Or a BB gun.

BTW, back in the early '90s I had an article published by IALEFI on the merits of training with a 22.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:35:14 AM EDT
Shoot what you can afford. If you can afford to shoot 357 alot then do so, otherwise shoot me. I've shot hot 9mm like Corbon HPs that has felt like 40, but not hot 40. There has been a significant difference in feel between practice 9 and regular 40 though.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:35:41 AM EDT
9mm GDHP data

.357 GDHP data


You're talking about a difference of 100fps.

How many rounds are you giving up for that velocity increase, and how much more are you paying for it?
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:42:11 AM EDT
Practicing with a lighter load or with a more lightly recoiling caliber is not optimum, but it beats the hell out of the likely alternative - which is not practicing.
Link Posted: 4/26/2014 4:42:27 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By haydendavid380:
9mm GDHP data

.357 GDHP data


You're talking about a difference of 100fps.

How many rounds are you giving up for that velocity increase, and how much more are you paying for it?
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Don't bother. They want to believe.
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