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Posted: 9/5/2013 5:28:15 AM EST
in case anyone has never seen one. This is off an old GM Electromotive "EMD" This is an electric motor that drives a set of wheels. CSB and all that

Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:31:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2013 5:31:16 AM EST by Kalahnikid]
Sweet! All you need now is a generator and a home made ice cream making machine and youre all set to be the most popular guy in the neighborhood.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:32:49 AM EST
It is surprising how many people do not realize that diesel train engines are actually electric train engines that carry around their own electrical power plant with them.

Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:33:03 AM EST
Golf cart named Bigfoot?
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:35:23 AM EST
Interesting.

I saw several of these on a flatbed yesterday on the way home from work. Yes I knew what they were when I saw them.

3 traction drives, plus 3 sets of wheels made that truck blow some black smoke.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:35:29 AM EST
Looks very familiar.............I used to work as a switchman/sampler at the local power plant, and we had an electromotive engine that hauled the coal cars out of the yard


Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
in case anyone has never seen one. This is off an old GM Electromotive "EMD" This is an electric motor that drives a set of wheels. CSB and all that

http://i41.tinypic.com/2s6vsdd.jpg
View Quote

Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:35:34 AM EST
Here is another locomotive traction motor, but we use them for draw works and mud pumps.

Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:36:50 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NightFAL:
It is surprising how many people do not realize that diesel train engines are actually electric train engines that carry around their own electrical power plant with them.

View Quote

Yep. This happens to be a DC motor, but there are AC gensets also. I'll have to see if I can get a pic of one of the air compressors off one of these things (giant 3 cylinders, IIRC)
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:38:28 AM EST
Nice, I expected it to be a lot larger. (Insert joke here!)

Is there just one, or one per axle? What is the ratio of motor RPM to wheel RPM?
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:41:50 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Nice, I expected it to be a lot larger. (Insert joke here!)

Is there just one, or one per axle? What is the ratio of motor RPM to wheel RPM?
View Quote

I believe it's one motor per axle. As far as the reduction, hopefully somebody that works on these things will chime in. I work on the signals.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:42:01 AM EST
That looks very heavy.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:45:35 AM EST
What does that weigh?

How many does a typical locomotive have?
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:50:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2013 5:52:12 AM EST by Frank_B]
Awesome amount of horsepower in a small package. We used them for variable speed induced draft blowers on a co-generation system. Because of mass production they were also economical.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:51:05 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:

I believe it's one motor per axle. As far as the reduction, hopefully somebody that works on these things will chime in. I work on the signals.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Nice, I expected it to be a lot larger. (Insert joke here!)
Is there just one, or one per axle? What is the ratio of motor RPM to wheel RPM?

I believe it's one motor per axle. As far as the reduction, hopefully somebody that works on these things will chime in. I work on the signals.


That's what she said!
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:51:50 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By California_Kid:
That looks very heavy.
View Quote



4,000 to 8,000 lbs depending on the model. I am not overly knowledgeable in the field, but I would guess that one at around 5,900 lbs.

Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:56:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2013 5:57:42 AM EST by WilliamGray]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tcrpe:
What does that weigh?

How many does a typical locomotive have?
View Quote


The one I posted is 1150HP continuous with a 1400HP peak. It weighs ~ 6500 lbs.
It is fed by 6 runs of 646 MCM Dlo cable. We run them off of yaskawa VFDs.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:58:39 AM EST
Some of the industrial stuff I've seen boggled my mind. Our GE crew was at a cement plant testing and cleaning panel instruments. On the other side of the glass were the rotary mills where they pound rocks into smaller rocks. I noticed all the motor ammeters hovering around 100 amps, and asked someone what the motor voltage was.

4,160 volts

4160 x 100 = 416,000 watts = 416 kw per motor x 4 motors = 1,664 kw = 1.664 megawatts just for this one part of the whole plant

At another plant, a steel mill, I was eyeballing a big stack of carbon electrodes that were fed into the arc under a steel pot. The electrodes were about a foot in diameter and several feet long. Asked my contact there how much electricity they used and he said they were the power company's biggest customer and their bill was a million bucks a month. That was 30+ years ago.

Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:00:30 AM EST
Why are they called traction motors?
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:03:26 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WilliamGray:


The one I posted is 1150HP continuous with a 1400HP peak. It weighs ~ 6500 lbs.
It is fed by 6 runs of 646 MCM Dlo cable. We run them off of yaskawa VFDs.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WilliamGray:
Originally Posted By tcrpe:
What does that weigh?

How many does a typical locomotive have?


The one I posted is 1150HP continuous with a 1400HP peak. It weighs ~ 6500 lbs.
It is fed by 6 runs of 646 MCM Dlo cable. We run them off of yaskawa VFDs.



VFDs must be costly. Very costly.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:04:45 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dumpster_Baby:

At another plant, a steel mill, I was eyeballing a big stack of carbon electrodes that were fed into the arc under a steel pot. The electrodes were about a foot in diameter and several feet long. Asked my contact there how much electricity they used and he said they were the power company's biggest customer and their bill was a million bucks a month. That was 30+ years ago.

View Quote



I worked on the elevators at Atlantic Steel in GA, and Plant Bowen power plant about 15 miles up the road.

In the control room at Bowen, it showed the feeds to the towns around the areas, and Atlantic steel. They used over $1M a month also, and that was in the early 80s.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:04:58 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By xmission:
Why are they called traction motors?
View Quote


Because they generate tractive force. Either by applying voltage to the motor to propel the locomotive, or running the motor as a generator coupled to a regenerative braking system during braking operations. Locomotives use regenerative braking to charge batteries, we feed it to a giant resistor grid and the extra energy is burned off as heat.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:05:41 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By xmission:
Why are they called traction motors?
View Quote

They feed power to the wheels (as opposed to pumps, compressors, etc...).

Same with a Prius.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:05:46 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tcrpe:



VFDs must be costly. Very costly.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tcrpe:
Originally Posted By WilliamGray:
Originally Posted By tcrpe:
What does that weigh?

How many does a typical locomotive have?


The one I posted is 1150HP continuous with a 1400HP peak. It weighs ~ 6500 lbs.
It is fed by 6 runs of 646 MCM Dlo cable. We run them off of yaskawa VFDs.



VFDs must be costly. Very costly.


I think I heard 15k per drive. Each motor takes 3.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:06:24 AM EST
Thanks
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:06:44 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WilliamGray:


The one I posted is 1150HP continuous with a 1400HP peak. It weighs ~ 6500 lbs.
It is fed by 6 runs of 646 MCM Dlo cable. We run them off of yaskawa VFDs.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WilliamGray:
Originally Posted By tcrpe:
What does that weigh?

How many does a typical locomotive have?


The one I posted is 1150HP continuous with a 1400HP peak. It weighs ~ 6500 lbs.
It is fed by 6 runs of 646 MCM Dlo cable. We run them off of yaskawa VFDs.



I would love to see the IGBT and capacitor banks on that sucker!

Is it liquid cooled and the size of a double freezer?
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:10:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2013 6:11:49 AM EST by WilliamGray]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PugglePod9000:



I would love to see the IGBT and capacitor banks on that sucker!

Is it liquid cooled and the size of a double freezer?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PugglePod9000:
Originally Posted By WilliamGray:
Originally Posted By tcrpe:
What does that weigh?

How many does a typical locomotive have?


The one I posted is 1150HP continuous with a 1400HP peak. It weighs ~ 6500 lbs.
It is fed by 6 runs of 646 MCM Dlo cable. We run them off of yaskawa VFDs.



I would love to see the IGBT and capacitor banks on that sucker!

Is it liquid cooled and the size of a double freezer?


Not liquid cooled, but two very large ac units keep the temp around 70F.

Each rig has 14 VFDs. They each weigh about 250-300 lbs.



Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:16:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2013 6:19:14 AM EST by BlammO]
WANT!

But couldn't afford to do anything with it.


Since it's DC, I propose the First Annual Arfcom Locomotive Traction Motor AA-Battery Challenge! <FAALTMAABC> Let the game begin . . .
Can we get sponsorship from Duracell or Eveready? Can the motor power an upscaled skateboard piloted by an adventurous possum?
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:22:04 AM EST
I've hauled more then a few of those when I was driving truck
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:24:43 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NightFAL:
It is surprising how many people do not realize that diesel train engines are actually electric train engines that carry around their own electrical power plant with them.

View Quote

Proving your point: I had no idea. And I consider myself above-average mechanical and 43 years old.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:24:56 AM EST
Nice!

I myself have been around some big motors. 2,000 HP boiler feed pumps and 6,000 HP MVR compressor motors.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:30:21 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JCKnife:

Proving your point: I had no idea. And I consider myself above-average mechanical and 43 years old.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JCKnife:
Originally Posted By NightFAL:
It is surprising how many people do not realize that diesel train engines are actually electric train engines that carry around their own electrical power plant with them.


Proving your point: I had no idea. And I consider myself above-average mechanical and 43 years old.

Yup. They run large diesel gensets that provide power to the motors and also battery banks. The motors can be run off of just the battery banks, and also recharge the batteries during breaking. Think of a diesel electric locomotive as a very large hybrid car.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:31:43 AM EST
Ah, Plant Bowen.............my old stomping grounds


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By xmission:



I worked on the elevators at Atlantic Steel in GA, and Plant Bowen power plant about 15 miles up the road.

In the control room at Bowen, it showed the feeds to the towns around the areas, and Atlantic steel. They used over $1M a month also, and that was in the early 80s.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By xmission:
Originally Posted By Dumpster_Baby:

At another plant, a steel mill, I was eyeballing a big stack of carbon electrodes that were fed into the arc under a steel pot. The electrodes were about a foot in diameter and several feet long. Asked my contact there how much electricity they used and he said they were the power company's biggest customer and their bill was a million bucks a month. That was 30+ years ago.




I worked on the elevators at Atlantic Steel in GA, and Plant Bowen power plant about 15 miles up the road.

In the control room at Bowen, it showed the feeds to the towns around the areas, and Atlantic steel. They used over $1M a month also, and that was in the early 80s.

Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:33:28 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dumpster_Baby:
Some of the industrial stuff I've seen boggled my mind. Our GE crew was at a cement plant testing and cleaning panel instruments. On the other side of the glass were the rotary mills where they pound rocks into smaller rocks. I noticed all the motor ammeters hovering around 100 amps, and asked someone what the motor voltage was.
View Quote


One cement plant I worked had three ball mills ( 1 for raw grinding and 2 for finish grinding) that each had a 5MW motor. Another plant I worked at has 1 mill with a 6MW motor and 2 with around 4 MW motors. That second plant could pull more than 40MW off the grid with everything running.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:38:36 AM EST
We make those at work.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:40:54 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By soncorn:


One cement plant I worked had three ball mills ( 1 for raw grinding and 2 for finish grinding) that each had a 5MW motor. Another plant I worked at has 1 mill with a 6MW motor and 2 with around 4 MW motors. That second plant could pull more than 40MW off the grid with everything running.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By soncorn:
Originally Posted By Dumpster_Baby:
Some of the industrial stuff I've seen boggled my mind. Our GE crew was at a cement plant testing and cleaning panel instruments. On the other side of the glass were the rotary mills where they pound rocks into smaller rocks. I noticed all the motor ammeters hovering around 100 amps, and asked someone what the motor voltage was.


One cement plant I worked had three ball mills ( 1 for raw grinding and 2 for finish grinding) that each had a 5MW motor. Another plant I worked at has 1 mill with a 6MW motor and 2 with around 4 MW motors. That second plant could pull more than 40MW off the grid with everything running.


We can produce 4.5 MW off of our 3 gensets. (Cat 3512C)
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:48:51 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tcrpe:

VFDs must be costly. Very costly.
View Quote


But worth it. AC locomotives produce much higher tractive effort than their DC cousins.

20 years ago, it was somewhere around a half million more for the AC versions (on a $2 million locomotive)

Gear ratios vary, depending on whether the locos are optimized for high speed or low speed service.

Typical is around 80:20 to 80:15 or thereabouts (GE), GM's were 62:15 more or less.


Regenerative braking is only on gensets and electrified RR's - puts power into batteries or the overhead wires. Regular locos have big dynamic brake resistors with fans to cool them.


RR's have been having issues with people stealing traction motor cables for the copper.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 7:11:17 AM EST
This is a very tragic video (no gore, but some teenage kids died over sheer foolishness). You can hear the dynamic brake a few seconds after the car is hit. The train stops very quickly (for a train)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOPtw5ZLX_c
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 7:23:20 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
This is a very tragic video (no gore, but some teenage kids died over sheer foolishness). You can hear the dynamic brake a few seconds after the car is hit. The train stops very quickly (for a train)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOPtw5ZLX_c
View Quote


Play stupid games. Win stupid prizes.
They won.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 7:24:23 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
This is a very tragic video (no gore, but some teenage kids died over sheer foolishness). You can hear the dynamic brake a few seconds after the car is hit. The train stops very quickly (for a train)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOPtw5ZLX_c
View Quote


Amtraks run light relative to freights.

Sucks for the engineer and crew to have to see it and everyone else to be inconvenienced by the stop, cleanup, and paperwork
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 7:26:52 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Agilt:


Amtraks run light relative to freights.

Sucks for the engineer and crew to have to see it and everyone else to be inconvenienced by the stop, cleanup, and paperwork
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Agilt:
Originally Posted By SuperJanitor:
This is a very tragic video (no gore, but some teenage kids died over sheer foolishness). You can hear the dynamic brake a few seconds after the car is hit. The train stops very quickly (for a train)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOPtw5ZLX_c


Amtraks run light relative to freights.

Sucks for the engineer and crew to have to see it and everyone else to be inconvenienced by the stop, cleanup, and paperwork

That is true and they also use disc brakes, IIRC. Having said that, the dynamic brake probably cut the stopping distance in half of what it would have been otherwise.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 7:27:04 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By xmission:
Why are they called traction motors?
View Quote


They generate full torque when stalled, and as they increase speed, torque drops until the motor's generating effect equals the supply line voltage. If the motor overruns this speed, the generator effect of the motor feeds power back into the supply line.

The most important feature is the full torque at stall, which is needed for starting a heavy train.

Traction motors can be series wound DC motors, or rotating field AC motors.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 7:27:14 AM EST
Buy a used Tahoe Hybrid, yank out the back seats, hook up one of these and head for the dragstrip!
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 7:36:37 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JCKnife:

Proving your point: I had no idea. And I consider myself above-average mechanical and 43 years old.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JCKnife:
Originally Posted By NightFAL:
It is surprising how many people do not realize that diesel train engines are actually electric train engines that carry around their own electrical power plant with them.


Proving your point: I had no idea. And I consider myself above-average mechanical and 43 years old.


I think I knew that, but only because I probably learned it here
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 7:39:57 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WilliamGray:

Yup. They run large diesel gensets that provide power to the motors and also battery banks. The motors can be run off of just the battery banks, and also recharge the batteries during breaking. Think of a diesel electric locomotive as a very large hybrid car.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WilliamGray:
Originally Posted By JCKnife:
Originally Posted By NightFAL:
It is surprising how many people do not realize that diesel train engines are actually electric train engines that carry around their own electrical power plant with them.


Proving your point: I had no idea. And I consider myself above-average mechanical and 43 years old.

Yup. They run large diesel gensets that provide power to the motors and also battery banks. The motors can be run off of just the battery banks, and also recharge the batteries during breaking. Think of a diesel electric locomotive as a very large hybrid car.


Not really. The only diesel-electric in any use here that does that is the GE ES44AH. That may never happen though.

During regenerative or dynamic breaking, the power is put to a grid as heat. Lder EMDs had blisters, newer ones don't, but if the locomotive is DB equipped, there is atleast one fan to col the DBs off.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 7:40:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 7:45:25 AM EST
Don't confuse GenSet locomotives with Green Goat locomotives. Green Goats have the massive battery banks with a small diesel generator to keep them charged. They can use regen braking for help. Green Goats suck.

GenSets locomotives are merely 1-3 small diesel engines paired with their own generators on its own skid. Some have DBs others don't. GenSets also suck.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 8:04:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2013 8:05:13 AM EST by Merlin]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dumpster_Baby:
Some of the industrial stuff I've seen boggled my mind. Our GE crew was at a cement plant testing and cleaning panel instruments. On the other side of the glass were the rotary mills where they pound rocks into smaller rocks. I noticed all the motor ammeters hovering around 100 amps, and asked someone what the motor voltage was.

4,160 volts

4160 x 100 = 416,000 watts = 416 kw per motor x 4 motors = 1,664 kw = 1.664 megawatts just for this one part of the whole plant

At another plant, a steel mill, I was eyeballing a big stack of carbon electrodes that were fed into the arc under a steel pot. The electrodes were about a foot in diameter and several feet long. Asked my contact there how much electricity they used and he said they were the power company's biggest customer and their bill was a million bucks a month. That was 30+ years ago.

View Quote


I watched the same type of ammeters one time, also pegging out at +400 amps as they went through their cycle. Won't mention the voltage since they were powering a phased array radar at an AFS in Alaska. I can tell you that the 6 diesel generators at that site came from the old Stanley R. Mickelson Safeguard Missile Defense site 2 miles NE of Nekoma, ND back in the mid 70's. They were rebuilding one of the generators when I was there in late 2004 - the piston was the size of a large dinner plate, it was huge.

Anyway, back to the electric RR genset thread....


Link Posted: 9/5/2013 8:08:09 AM EST
I build these every day..

Joilet Equipment Corp.

Take the guts out of the old Railroad units and swap them into our new frames.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 8:29:13 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Danner130:


They generate full torque when stalled, and as they increase speed, torque drops until the motor's generating effect equals the supply line voltage. If the motor overruns this speed, the generator effect of the motor feeds power back into the supply line.

The most important feature is the full torque at stall, which is needed for starting a heavy train.

Traction motors can be series wound DC motors, or rotating field AC motors.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Danner130:
Originally Posted By xmission:
Why are they called traction motors?


They generate full torque when stalled, and as they increase speed, torque drops until the motor's generating effect equals the supply line voltage. If the motor overruns this speed, the generator effect of the motor feeds power back into the supply line.

The most important feature is the full torque at stall, which is needed for starting a heavy train.

Traction motors can be series wound DC motors, or rotating field AC motors.

Cool, I always thought the name 'traction' was just to specify the application.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 12:05:54 PM EST
Here is a locomotive compressor. Its about the size of a picnic table. You know when they are making air. You'll hear a "whooop" followed by a boo-dah boo-dah boo-dah type noise. On a clear night, that noise can carry for miles.


Link Posted: 9/5/2013 12:18:28 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


I watched the same type of ammeters one time, also pegging out at +400 amps as they went through their cycle. Won't mention the voltage since they were powering a phased array radar at an AFS in Alaska. I can tell you that the 6 diesel generators at that site came from the old Stanley R. Mickelson Safeguard Missile Defense site 2 miles NE of Nekoma, ND back in the mid 70's. They were rebuilding one of the generators when I was there in late 2004 - the piston was the size of a large dinner plate, it was huge.

View Quote


Aha! HAARP! AHA!



Btw the current EMD locos are called 710's.

That's the cubic inches per cylinder.

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