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Posted: 1/17/2015 4:24:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 4:26:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 4:40:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 5:16:46 PM EST by Sirveaux]
Based on the link, looks like it's been reprinted a bunch:

To Connie Papurt, AR’s niece, a daughter of Frank’s sister, Agnes Papurt
May 22, 1949

Dear Connie:

You are very young, so I don’t know whether you realize the seriousness of your action in writing to me for money. Since I don’t know you at all, I am going to put you to a test.

If you really want to borrow $25 from me, I will take a chance on finding out what kind of person you are. You want to borrow the money until your graduation. I will do better than that. I will make it easier for you to repay the debt, but on condition that you understand and accept it as a strict and serious business deal. Before you borrow it, I want you to think it over very carefully.

Here are my conditions: If I send you the $25, I will give you a year to repay it. I will give you six months after your graduation to get settled in a job. Then, you will start repaying the money in installments: you will send me $5 on January 15, 1950, and $4 on the 15th of every month after that; the last installment will be on June 15, 1950—and that will repay the total.

Are you willing to do it?

Here is what I want you to think over: Once you get a job, there will always be many things which you will need and on which you might prefer to spend your money, rather than repay a debt. I want you to decide now, in advance, as an honest and responsible person, whether you will be willing and able to repay this money, no matter what happens, as an obligation above and ahead of any other expense.

I want you to understand right now that I will not accept any excuse—except a serious illness. If you become ill, then I will give you an extension of time—but for no other reason. If, when the debt becomes due, you tell me that you can’t pay me because you needed a new pair of shoes or a new coat or you gave the money to somebody in the family who needed it more than I do—then I will consider you as an embezzler. No, I won’t send a policeman after you, but I will write you off as a rotten person and I will never speak or write to you again.

Now I will tell you why I am so serious and severe about this. I despise irresponsible people. I don’t want to deal with them or help them in any way. An irresponsible person is a person who makes vague promises, then breaks his word, blames it on circumstances and expects other people to forgive it. A responsible person does not make a promise without thinking of all the consequences and being prepared to meet them.

You want $25 for the purpose of buying a dress; you tell me that you will get a job and be able to repay me. That’s fine and I am willing to help you, if that is exactly what you mean. But if what you mean is: give me the money now and I will repay it if I don’t change my mind about it—then the deal is off. If I keep my part of the deal, you must keep yours, just exactly as agreed, no matter what happens.

I was very badly disappointed in Mimi and Marna [Docky]. When I first met Mimi, she asked me to give her money for the purpose of taking an art course. I gave her the money, but she did not take the art course. I supported Marna for a year—for the purpose of helping her to finish high school. She did not finish high school. I will take a chance on you, because I don’t want to blame you for the actions of your sisters. But I want you to show me that you are a better kind of person.

I will tell you the reasons for the conditions I make: I think that the person who asks and expects other people to give him money, instead of earning it, is the most rotten person on earth. I would like to teach you, if I can, very early in life, the idea of a self-respecting, self-supporting, responsible, capitalistic person. If you borrow money and repay it, it is the best training in responsibility that you can ever have.

I want you to drop—if you have it in your mind—the idea that you are entitled to take money or support from me, just because we happen to be relatives. I want you to understand very clearly, right now, when you are young, that no honest person believes that he is obliged to support his relatives. I don’t believe it and will not do it. I cannot like you or want to help you without reason, just because you need the help. That is not a good reason. But you can earn my liking, my interest and my help by showing me that you are a good person.

Now think this over and let me know whether you want to borrow the money on my conditions and whether you give me your word of honor to observe the conditions. If you do, I will send you the money. If you don’t understand me, if you think that I am a hard, cruel, rich old woman and you don’t approve of my ideas—well, you don’t have to approve, but then you must not ask me for help.

I will wait to hear from you, and if I find out that you are my kind of person, then I hope that this will be the beginning of a real friendship between us, which would please me very much.

Your aunt,
View Quote


I'm actually kind of impressed by Rand in this letter. She must've had a herculean task trying to make this as concise as she did. And she didn't use the word "insolent".

ETA: To put some of this in perspective, this letter was written in 1949. According to the CPI gov inflation calculator, $25 in 1949 would be $248.67 in 2014.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 4:45:01 PM EST
Tight ass bitch. If you can't help out family then what good is being rich.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 4:47:25 PM EST
I'll go ask for $25 elsewhere ya seaword.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 4:50:56 PM EST
Arfcom hates Ayn Rand.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 4:52:19 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Tight ass bitch. If you can't help out family then what good is being rich.
View Quote


She could help. And she offered to.


Some people need actual help, and not just money.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 4:53:37 PM EST
Sounds like Ayn has had experience loaning money to family.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 4:58:06 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Tight ass bitch. If you can't help out family then what good is being rich.
View Quote


Giving money to family, especially younger family members, is NOT helping them.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 4:59:34 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Tight ass bitch. If you can't help out family then what good is being rich.
View Quote


Can I borrow $25?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:00:35 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Demosthenes99:


Giving money to family, especially younger family members, is NOT helping them.
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Originally Posted By Demosthenes99:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Tight ass bitch. If you can't help out family then what good is being rich.


Giving money to family, especially younger family members, is NOT helping them.



I agree to a certain point. But asking for a dress doesn't seem out of line in my world.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:02:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 5:03:49 PM EST by hotbiggun42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jmmoney:


Can I borrow $25?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jmmoney:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Tight ass bitch. If you can't help out family then what good is being rich.


Can I borrow $25?


Someone bought me a membership once. So I will keep you in mind when your membership is up for renewal
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:02:50 PM EST
If you are going to give money to family or friends, just gift it. Expect nothing in return and you may keep your relationship intact.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:03:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 5:07:01 PM EST by 10mmFan]
That's nothing. Warren Buffet refused to loan his OWN daughter $30k when she was preggers to add an extra room to her small house. Loan! Buffet!! POS.










<------look, 3 posts away from 4 bullets!
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:03:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 5:06:17 PM EST by Locke556]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SemperFo:
Arfcom hates Ayn Rand.
View Quote

She attacked and criticized a lot of sacred cows, and wasn't particularly nice about it, so most people find it easy to hate her for one reason or another.

The two biggest being theology (or as she called it "mysticism") and socialism. Most people believe in one or both and Rand adamantly believed in neither.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:05:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 5:07:19 PM EST by hotbiggun42]
BTW I really appreciate the free Dillo Larue used to send out at Christmas time and for the replacing a broken mount I bought used.
Larue is generous people.

But I understand the message AR is making here and it's a damn good one.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:08:05 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Staggunner:
If you are going to give money to family or friends, just gift it. Expect nothing in return and you may keep your relationship intact.
View Quote

That's the point, she didn't want a relationship with a lying embezzler, it's a cheap test of character.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:10:55 PM EST
Can I borrow some .300 BLK barrels?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:12:32 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fattyfat:
Can I borrow some .300 BLK barrels?
View Quote



No
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:14:23 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
-
I agree to a certain point. But asking for a dress doesn't seem out of line in my world.
View Quote


$25 in 1949 money - when the letter was written, is now $248.67 in 2014 money, according to the CPI inflation calculator.

Would you loan $250 to someone who's a potential credit risk just so they can buy a dress?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:15:47 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sirveaux:


$25 in 1949 money - when the letter was written, is now $248.67 in 2014 money, according to the CPI inflation calculator.

Would you loan $250 to someone who's a potential credit risk just so they can buy a dress?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By Sirveaux:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
-
I agree to a certain point. But asking for a dress doesn't seem out of line in my world.


$25 in 1949 money - when the letter was written, is now $248.67 in 2014 money, according to the CPI inflation calculator.

Would you loan $250 to someone who's a potential credit risk just so they can buy a dress?



Fuck no that's a case of 556.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:19:39 PM EST
well...?

did the kid come back to borrow the money?






ps please don't post pics of AR
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:21:25 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jmmoney:


Can I borrow $25?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jmmoney:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Tight ass bitch. If you can't help out family then what good is being rich.


Can I borrow $25?

Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:23:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 5:25:46 PM EST by justsayin]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Tight ass bitch. If you can't help out family then what good is being rich.
View Quote





Apparently every POS family member who doesn't make as much as "Uncle Bob" feels the exact same way as you do these days.

Quite a few in my "family", leeches all.

I guess personal responsibility just isn't cool anymore.

Apparently feeling entitled to the well deserved profits of another just because you they are successful, and you're related, is.

I don't deserve a penny earned by someone else, and I'm good with it.

Every time I have tried to help "family" I've taken it in the shorts, without so much as a thank you or apology.

The people that will come and beg from another, by and large feel entitled to the help, and rarely show gratitude, or appreciation.

Most end up begging for "just a little more, please".
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:24:42 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
-
Fuck no that's a case of 556.
View Quote


Perspective, huh?

I just added the values to the post with the letter.

$25 in today's money taken back to 1949 would be $2.51, by the same CPI calculator.

Principle remains.

I expect that if someone gets money from me, I'm not getting it back - so it's either a gift, or there's collateral involved - I know that's how a lot of people look at loaning money. Rand was trying to explain loans and credit to someone who clearly could use it, based on the family. Seems a lot kinder for Rand to give the girl something to live up to than just expecting people to fail and work a system around the expectation. Seems Rand was an optimist to some degree.

For the niece, having paid off a loan to Ayn Rand would probably be a pretty cool thing to add to your credit back in the days when you could provide a personal reference for credit to a bank.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:25:43 PM EST
She didn't turn down Social Security and Medicaid.


I did visit her grave,as it's in the same cemetery as Rachmaninoff.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:27:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By outofbattery:
She didn't turn down Social Security and Medicaid.
View Quote


Pretty sure the IRS makes that a program you can't refuse.

If she was forced by the govt to pay in, why should she turn it down?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:28:52 PM EST
I agree with a lot of the premise that she goes on and on about.

However, anything I've read from her/about her just gives me the impression that her matter of fact grandstanding attitude that she had to be miserable to deal with let alone be related to.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:29:26 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Staggunner:
If you are going to give money to family or friends, just gift it. Expect nothing in return and you may keep your relationship intact.
View Quote


If you are going to ask for money from a friend or relative, expect they may say no.
If you this sours the relationship between the two of you, it might not be their fault for saying no.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:32:03 PM EST
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Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:



Fuck no that's a case of 556.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By Sirveaux:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
-
I agree to a certain point. But asking for a dress doesn't seem out of line in my world.


$25 in 1949 money - when the letter was written, is now $248.67 in 2014 money, according to the CPI inflation calculator.

Would you loan $250 to someone who's a potential credit risk just so they can buy a dress?



Fuck no that's a case of 556.



Tightass, dickhead. You have more than a lot of other people.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:32:30 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sirveaux:


Pretty sure the IRS makes that a program you can't refuse.

If she was forced by the govt to pay in, why should she turn it down?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sirveaux:
Originally Posted By outofbattery:
She didn't turn down Social Security and Medicaid.


Pretty sure the IRS makes that a program you can't refuse.

If she was forced by the govt to pay in, why should she turn it down?

Wouldn't it be awesome if you could choose not to pay into SS, with the understanding that you would not receive payments when you reached the age at which others are able to draw it?

I bet the majority of people would opt out, too bad there's a gun to everyone's head demanding the money, or else.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:33:06 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sirveaux:


Pretty sure the IRS makes that a program you can't refuse.

If she was forced by the govt to pay in, why should she turn it down?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sirveaux:
Originally Posted By outofbattery:
She didn't turn down Social Security and Medicaid.


Pretty sure the IRS makes that a program you can't refuse.

If she was forced by the govt to pay in, why should she turn it down?


Because other people are now expected to pay in, silly.

We just need to cut the old farts off at the knees so "we" don't get screwed, too.

It's the only fair thing, expecting them to "take one for the team", so "we" don't have to.

Right?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:34:26 PM EST
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Originally Posted By SimonPhoto:

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Originally Posted By SimonPhoto:
Originally Posted By Jmmoney:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Tight ass bitch. If you can't help out family then what good is being rich.


Can I borrow $25?




The guy must be in dire straight to ask a stranger for $25. More than likely I would give it to him.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:35:18 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Grunteled:



Tightass, dickhead. You have more than a lot of other people.
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Originally Posted By Grunteled:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By Sirveaux:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
-
I agree to a certain point. But asking for a dress doesn't seem out of line in my world.


$25 in 1949 money - when the letter was written, is now $248.67 in 2014 money, according to the CPI inflation calculator.

Would you loan $250 to someone who's a potential credit risk just so they can buy a dress?



Fuck no that's a case of 556.



Tightass, dickhead. You have more than a lot of other people.


Whoa this is all in good fun right?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:35:26 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:

The guy must be in dire straight to ask a stranger for $25. More than likely I would give it to him.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By SimonPhoto:
Originally Posted By Jmmoney:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Tight ass bitch. If you can't help out family then what good is being rich.


Can I borrow $25?


The guy must be in dire straight to ask a stranger for $25. More than likely I would give it to him.

Do you give money to every pan handler that you encounter?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:37:00 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Locke556:

Do you give money to every pan handler that you encounter?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Locke556:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By SimonPhoto:
Originally Posted By Jmmoney:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Tight ass bitch. If you can't help out family then what good is being rich.


Can I borrow $25?


The guy must be in dire straight to ask a stranger for $25. More than likely I would give it to him.

Do you give money to every pan handler that you encounter?



Usually
Not a whole lot of them in these parts though.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:41:39 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Locke556:

Do you give money to every pan handler that you encounter?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Locke556:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Originally Posted By SimonPhoto:
Originally Posted By Jmmoney:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Tight ass bitch. If you can't help out family then what good is being rich.


Can I borrow $25?


The guy must be in dire straight to ask a stranger for $25. More than likely I would give it to him.

Do you give money to every pan handler that you encounter?


aaahhh.... so the line forms here then? (handout.jpg)
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 5:56:02 PM EST
"Since I don’t know you at all,"

No one picked up on this?
This looks like a relation that she has never met and now had her hand out.

At least she was willing to lend it to her. And she was sticking to her beliefs.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 6:01:11 PM EST
Its funny because if you know anything about her history you know that when she first moved to America she was a leach on her own relatives for quite a while. She is not a self made woman. She is a hypocrite, as we all are.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 6:05:44 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 6:12:33 PM EST
ts;dr
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 6:14:44 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
Its funny because if you know anything about her history you know that when she first moved to America she was a leach on her own relatives for quite a while. She is not a self made woman. She is a hypocrite, as we all are.
View Quote

Alinksy's Rules for Radicals.

#4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules.
#5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
#12. “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions.

Do you disagree with her ideas themselves, and if so, why?
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 6:24:38 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Locke556:

Alinksy's Rules for Radicals.

#4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules.
#5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
#12. “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions.

Do you disagree with her ideas themselves, and if so, why?
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Originally Posted By Locke556:
Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
Its funny because if you know anything about her history you know that when she first moved to America she was a leach on her own relatives for quite a while. She is not a self made woman. She is a hypocrite, as we all are.

Alinksy's Rules for Radicals.

#4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules.
#5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
#12. “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions.

Do you disagree with her ideas themselves, and if so, why?


Yes, I disagree with her ideas. I'm not an Objectivist. I think her political ideas were simplistic and her moral ideas, when carried out, were atrocious. She said herself that her life was a postscript to her novels that read "and I mean it". She expected to be judged on her own character. By all accounts she was an insufferable shrew who ruined peoples lives.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 6:26:31 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By brass:


The richest guys I know (7-8 digit net worth) skimp on every penny possible, when something like tires are $25 delivered, one will actually drive the 30 mile one way trip to not pay that delivery fee. Spread that into everything else, and that's how they got to be worth 100 mil.

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Originally Posted By brass:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
Tight ass bitch. If you can't help out family then what good is being rich.


The richest guys I know (7-8 digit net worth) skimp on every penny possible, when something like tires are $25 delivered, one will actually drive the 30 mile one way trip to not pay that delivery fee. Spread that into everything else, and that's how they got to be worth 100 mil.




He sounds like a fun guy. Maybe they can bury him with his money.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 6:58:42 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:


Yes, I disagree with her ideas. I'm not an Objectivist. I think her political ideas were simplistic and her moral ideas, when carried out, were atrocious. She said herself that her life was a postscript to her novels that read "and I mean it". She expected to be judged on her own character. By all accounts she was an insufferable shrew who ruined peoples lives.
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Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
Originally Posted By Locke556:
Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
Its funny because if you know anything about her history you know that when she first moved to America she was a leach on her own relatives for quite a while. She is not a self made woman. She is a hypocrite, as we all are.

Alinksy's Rules for Radicals.

#4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules.
#5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
#12. “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions.

Do you disagree with her ideas themselves, and if so, why?


Yes, I disagree with her ideas. I'm not an Objectivist. I think her political ideas were simplistic and her moral ideas, when carried out, were atrocious. She said herself that her life was a postscript to her novels that read "and I mean it". She expected to be judged on her own character. By all accounts she was an insufferable shrew who ruined peoples lives.

Fair enough, but I think it's pretty foolish to essentially imply that because she was imperfect in the practice of her beliefs, that it means her beliefs are wholly impracticable. I also doubt she was the same person when she was young as she was when she got older, most people change quite a bit as they grow older and gain life experience and insight.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 7:06:50 PM EST
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Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
Its funny because if you know anything about her history you know that when she first moved to America she was a leach on her own relatives for quite a while. She is not a self made woman.
View Quote
She didn't build that, in other words.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 7:13:02 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Locke556:

Fair enough, but I think it's pretty foolish to essentially imply that because she was imperfect in the practice of her beliefs, that it means her beliefs are wholly impracticable. I also doubt she was the same person when she was young as she was when she got older, most people change quite a bit as they grow older and gain life experience and insight.
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Originally Posted By Locke556:
Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
Originally Posted By Locke556:
Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
Its funny because if you know anything about her history you know that when she first moved to America she was a leach on her own relatives for quite a while. She is not a self made woman. She is a hypocrite, as we all are.

Alinksy's Rules for Radicals.

#4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules.
#5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
#12. “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions.

Do you disagree with her ideas themselves, and if so, why?


Yes, I disagree with her ideas. I'm not an Objectivist. I think her political ideas were simplistic and her moral ideas, when carried out, were atrocious. She said herself that her life was a postscript to her novels that read "and I mean it". She expected to be judged on her own character. By all accounts she was an insufferable shrew who ruined peoples lives.

Fair enough, but I think it's pretty foolish to essentially imply that because she was imperfect in the practice of her beliefs, that it means her beliefs are wholly impracticable. I also doubt she was the same person when she was young as she was when she got older, most people change quite a bit as they grow older and gain life experience and insight.



true--when she got older, she was in favor of taking medicaid.

tu quoque is not always a fallacy, but it is pretty indicative of someone's character. long story short, when the chips were down, rand decided that her stated principles were wrong, and that redistribution was a good thing.

none of us are perfect, but when someone flatly abandons the ethic that they have so vociferously advocated, it is reasonable to question their principles.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 7:18:25 PM EST
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Originally Posted By sirensong:

true--when she got older, she was in favor of taking medicaid.

tu quoque is not always a fallacy, but it is pretty indicative of someone's character. long story short, when the chips were down, rand decided that her stated principles were wrong, and that redistribution was a good thing.

none of us are perfect, but when someone flatly abandons the ethic that they have so vociferously advocated, it is reasonable to question their principles.
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Originally Posted By sirensong:
Originally Posted By Locke556:
Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
Originally Posted By Locke556:
Originally Posted By WI_Rifleman:
Its funny because if you know anything about her history you know that when she first moved to America she was a leach on her own relatives for quite a while. She is not a self made woman. She is a hypocrite, as we all are.

Alinksy's Rules for Radicals.

#4. “Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules.” You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules.
#5. “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.” There is no defense. It’s irrational. It’s infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
#12. “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions.

Do you disagree with her ideas themselves, and if so, why?


Yes, I disagree with her ideas. I'm not an Objectivist. I think her political ideas were simplistic and her moral ideas, when carried out, were atrocious. She said herself that her life was a postscript to her novels that read "and I mean it". She expected to be judged on her own character. By all accounts she was an insufferable shrew who ruined peoples lives.

Fair enough, but I think it's pretty foolish to essentially imply that because she was imperfect in the practice of her beliefs, that it means her beliefs are wholly impracticable. I also doubt she was the same person when she was young as she was when she got older, most people change quite a bit as they grow older and gain life experience and insight.

true--when she got older, she was in favor of taking medicaid.

tu quoque is not always a fallacy, but it is pretty indicative of someone's character. long story short, when the chips were down, rand decided that her stated principles were wrong, and that redistribution was a good thing.

none of us are perfect, but when someone flatly abandons the ethic that they have so vociferously advocated, it is reasonable to question their principles.

Lots of older people argue that accepting SS or Medicaid isn't leaching because they paid in to the programs, so they're just recouping their losses. I am not sure I agree with that but I understand the mentality, if you spent your whole life being fleeced, you'd want to get some of it back when you could.

Ultimately I think she'd have seen the whole scheme done away with entirely, but that was clearly not within her power.
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:29:35 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/17/2015 9:40:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/17/2015 9:41:34 PM EST by Eukatae]
Link Posted: 1/18/2015 8:19:01 AM EST
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