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Posted: 11/20/2011 5:49:56 AM EDT
Top 10 Most Audacious Shootouts In U.S. History

would you agree/disagree with this list?
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 5:52:05 AM EDT
That is a good list.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 5:57:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2011 5:57:17 AM EDT by die-tryin]
I only knew of 3 of those. What about ruby ridge and waco?
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:01:42 AM EDT
Interesting list.
Hillary is the best friend of the group of PR terrorists who carried out Blair house.
Their younger colleagues in the .org have committed other crimes. Hillary got some of them pardoned to help get the PR vote in NYC.

Well, this PR (and most PRs) despise communists and terrorists who are communists. Not Hillary!!!!
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:01:42 AM EDT
First post ftw
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:05:51 AM EDT
What rifle did Al Pacino use in the North Hollywood Shootout?
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:06:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:08:02 AM EDT
Some of those clearly belong. I think I'd replace the Blair House one (which was just two idiots with pistols in a futile attempt to invade a house) with Waco. Ruby Ridge wasn't much of a "shootout" all things considered. Just a clusterfuck.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:08:30 AM EDT
Oh, RE: Blair House, how stupid...from the article
"Had the gunmen shot down all the guards outside, they would have had only one Secret Service agent left, behind the front door with a Thompson Submachine gun, with which to contend, before having unimpeded access to Truman upstairs."

Oh, just one guy with a THOMPSON SMG to contend with any the two of you are armed with revolvers.
Yeah, no problem.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:09:21 AM EDT
Interesting list, four of the 10 occurred in California and are now part of the training curriculum at many of our police and sheriff's academies. The Newhall Shootout changed firearms training for LEOs across the country.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:11:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By dbrowne1:
Some of those clearly belong. I think I'd replace the Blair House one (which was just two idiots with pistols in a futile attempt to invade a house) with Waco. Ruby Ridge wasn't much of a "shootout" all things considered. Just a clusterfuck.


I would agree. Historically interesting but wouldn't bump We Ain't Coming Out.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:15:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2011 6:18:14 AM EDT by Hector_X]
Originally Posted By EvanWilliams:
Oh, just one guy with a THOMPSON SMG to contend with any the two of you are armed with revolvers.
Yeah, no problem.


I think I recall in Massad Ayoob's recount of the event that by the time the guard got the SMG out of storage and loaded, the gunfight was over, so there may have been a chance of catching him in the process.

Edit: here it is
Inside, one Secret Service agent raced to unlock the Thompson sub-machine gun maintained for such contingencies, but by the time it was out of its cabinet and up and ready, the gunfight was over.


I would mention the SLA Shootout in LA. 9000 rounds fired, the largest number of rounds in any police shootout in history.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:16:13 AM EDT
The Brookline/Young brothers shoot out is pretty much forgotten...but still has the record for loss of LEO life in a shoot out.


http://www.chrisanddavid.com/YoungBrothers/index.shtml
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:19:55 AM EDT
Really cool article. I think number two should have been number one. They destroyed 33 police cars with pipe bombs and shot down a police helicopter!? No movie has been made of this?
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:23:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EvanWilliams:
Oh, RE: Blair House, how stupid...from the article
"Had the gunmen shot down all the guards outside, they would have had only one Secret Service agent left, behind the front door with a Thompson Submachine gun, with which to contend, before having unimpeded access to Truman upstairs."

Oh, just one guy with a THOMPSON SMG to contend with any the two of you are armed with revolvers.
Yeah, no problem.

And they had already quite handily dealt with an entire Secret Service protection team. One more guy who was just as lackadaisical as the rest wouldn't have been that big a deal.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:26:54 AM EDT
8 The Newhall Shootout

it says At the time, the CHP did not issue their officers speedloaders, forcing Pence to reload one round at a time.

but I recall from some training somewhere, the guy died lining up his brass because they trained that way.

so they don't do that anymore.

and not sure if it was this one, or another story told in class about how you fired 2 rounds then reholstered. which they also don't do anymore.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:35:45 AM EDT
I became a member of arfcom way back around 1997. I remember several "discussions" that took place on here regarding the North Hollywood shootout. In many of them it degenerated into typical know-it-all police hate because LAPD didn't run up Matasareanu and immediately give him first aid after he had finally been brought down and was bleeding out on the street. Mom's basement assholes were calling for every sort of crucifixion on LAPD because of that. Of course today the basement commandos have called for everything from execution to bombs to stop the bank robbers.

Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:37:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Andrewh:
8 The Newhall Shootout

it says At the time, the CHP did not issue their officers speedloaders, forcing Pence to reload one round at a time.

but I recall from some training somewhere, the guy died lining up his brass because they trained that way.

so they don't do that anymore.

and not sure if it was this one, or another story told in class about how you fired 2 rounds then reholstered. which they also don't do anymore.

IIRC, several of the officers were found with expended shells in their pockets, as they were taught in the academy to pocket their brass to help with policing their range.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:37:57 AM EDT
Cool article.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:49:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Swatter911:
Interesting list, four of the 10 occurred in California and are now part of the training curriculum at many of our police and sheriff's academies. The Newhall Shootout changed firearms training for LEOs across the country.


California wins again!
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:49:19 AM EDT
Too bad they couldn't fit the Northfield raid in there somewhere.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi2/jamesyoungergang/northfield.html

"After Clell’s first shot, Cole and he mounted their respective horses and began charging up and down the streets, yelling "Get in! Get in!” and shooting their guns in the sky, through windows, and over people’s head. Jim, Bill, and Charlie, on the bridge, heard Clell’s first shot as well and quickly rode to join the foray, using exactly the same guerrilla tactics as Cole and Clell were using. At first, it seemed that the gang was actually overtaking the citizens, but the situation quickly flipped. The citizens ran to their homes or places of business to grab their derringers, pistols, shotguns, and rifles. J. S. Allen ran to his hardware/gun store and began loading and handing out whatever guns he could to every passerby near his store. The citizens then all ran to various places in town, including rooftops, porches, windows, sidewalks, and more. They began randomly opening fire on the five outlaws. In a matter of seconds, Division Street became a shooting gallery, with bullets flying and zipping in every direction from every possible location. The owner of the other hardware/gun store in town, Anselm R. Manning, ran to his store in hopes of procuring a formidable weapon. What he chose to use was his personal breech-loading rifle. With this gun and pockets full of cartridges, he ran to the street, searching for a target. Henry Wheeler, meanwhile, ran to the Dampier Hotel, located across the street from the bank. He ran to the top-story and found an old Army carbine and three slugs. He grabbed the gun, loaded it, and placed himself in a strategic position in one of the upper-story windows overlooking the siege.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 6:58:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 7:00:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 7:01:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2011 7:05:24 AM EDT by Staggunner]
Interesting reading OP.

My take on most of those battles: bring enough gun. The LEOs in the one left the scene to get ARs from sporting goods stores!!

AR infinitely better than any handgun, but we all knew that already.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 7:02:43 AM EDT
They included the Puerto Rican attack, so I'd say yes.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 7:04:07 AM EDT
Its an interesting list
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 7:05:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By die-tryin:
I only knew of 3 of those. What about ruby ridge and waco?


Shootouts require someone shooting back, not outright sanctioned murder from government forces on innocent civilians.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 7:29:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Really cool article. I think number two should have been number one. They destroyed 33 police cars with pipe bombs and shot down a police helicopter!? No movie has been made of this?


I was thinking the exact same thing, #2 should have been #1
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 7:32:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Razoreye:
Originally Posted By die-tryin:
I only knew of 3 of those. What about ruby ridge and waco?


Shootouts require someone shooting back, not outright sanctioned murder from government forces on innocent civilians.


+1, At Waco there was fire from both sides at the initial raid. The ATF had their asses handed to them. I think 4 agents were killed and several Davidians were shot also.

Link Posted: 11/20/2011 7:58:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:00:28 AM EDT
How could they leave out the 2 muslims? The Beltway Snipers.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:03:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hector_X:
Originally Posted By EvanWilliams:
Oh, just one guy with a THOMPSON SMG to contend with any the two of you are armed with revolvers.
Yeah, no problem.


I think I recall in Massad Ayoob's recount of the event that by the time the guard got the SMG out of storage and loaded, the gunfight was over, so there may have been a chance of catching him in the process.

Edit: here it is
Inside, one Secret Service agent raced to unlock the Thompson sub-machine gun maintained for such contingencies, but by the time it was out of its cabinet and up and ready, the gunfight was over.


I would mention the SLA Shootout in LA. 9000 rounds fired, the largest number of rounds in any police shootout in history.


I suspect the AIM siege at Wounded Knee had more rounds fired, on account of the crew served weapons.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:04:16 AM EDT
What followed prompted the FBI to change from the 9mm to .40 Sig


where can i get a .40 sig?
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:11:51 AM EDT
..........members of MOVE, a predominantly black organization dedicated to nature, and African tradition, were confronted by the Philadelphia Police Dept., after neighbors complained of MOVE’s constant bullhorn announcements of anti-American sentiment at all hours.

A burst of gunfire erupted from inside the building.......


Yep, suuuuuure, dedicated to nature and African tradition, innocent victims of violent oppression against terrorist bird watchers.



******spell check on my phone changed "terrorist bird" to "terrorist IRS"....ironic.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:11:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
How could they leave out the 2 muslims? The Beltway Snipers.


Nobody shot at them.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:15:32 AM EDT
Interesting list.

I would like to see a runner up section. I am curious as to why they did not include the SLA shootout in LA or the Battle of Athens, TN.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:15:51 AM EDT
Didn't Platt use some “fire and maneuver” tactics on the FBI from his military training?
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:17:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Wasn't there a shootout in New Orleans that invloved a guy on a roof, helicopters and M60 machineguns?

70's 80's?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Essex

I remember that one.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:20:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2011 8:20:25 AM EDT by nchapa]
Originally Posted By die-tryin:
I only knew of 3 of those. What about ruby ridge and waco?


What do you mean ruby ridge and waco? They never happened!
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:28:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TUBBY:
Originally Posted By Razoreye:
Originally Posted By die-tryin:
I only knew of 3 of those. What about ruby ridge and waco?


Shootouts require someone shooting back, not outright sanctioned murder from government forces on innocent civilians.


+1, At Waco there was fire from both sides at the initial raid. The ATF had their asses handed to them. I think 4 agents were killed and several Davidians were shot also.



I suppose if you count friendly fire taking down their own agents.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:29:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2011 8:30:24 AM EDT by Razoreye]
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
How could they leave out the 2 muslims? The Beltway Snipers.


Not a shootout. Refer to merriam webster dictionary for the definition.

I would have put Norco as number one though. I've read about them all save for number 10. SLA would have been on my list though.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:30:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Wasn't there a shootout in New Orleans that invloved a guy on a roof, helicopters and M60 machineguns?

70's 80's?


Yea, he shot a police commander as he walked into the CP set up across the street from where he was holed up.
I think they finally got him with a machine gun from a military helicopter.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:30:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Razoreye:
Originally Posted By hotbiggun42:
How could they leave out the 2 muslims? The Beltway Snipers.


Not a shootout. Refer to merriam webster dictionary for the definition.


it was cowardice.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:37:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Coax:
Didn't Platt use some “fire and maneuver” tactics on the FBI from his military training?


Not really. Without a squad it's hard to call it that. He used the mindset he developed in the service to respond with violence of action.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:38:21 AM EDT
The SLA shoot out should be in the top 10 list:

Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:39:36 AM EDT
The Sacramento Good Guys! shootout was an interesting one as well.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:48:59 AM EDT
Anyone notice that the guy's 1911 jammed on him. What no fanboys coming to his rescue???

Another reason to have a G21!!!

Good read. I agree, Waco should have been on that list.

Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:53:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Razoreye:
The Sacramento Good Guys! shootout was an interesting one as well.


I agree, but I'm not sure how much shooting at the Sacto Cops they didn, IIRC, he walked down the line shooting hostages in the head, not at the LEO


I certainly agree on SLA if they put Move on the list and probably Northfield MN too.

IIRC there was a 30's gangster shootout at some Swiss Chelet resort also
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:54:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EvanWilliams:
Oh, RE: Blair House, how stupid...from the article
"Had the gunmen shot down all the guards outside, they would have had only one Secret Service agent left, behind the front door with a Thompson Submachine gun, with which to contend, before having unimpeded access to Truman upstairs."

Oh, just one guy with a THOMPSON SMG to contend with any the two of you are armed with revolvers.
Yeah, no problem.

Yeah, I thought the same thing reading that.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 8:56:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
The SLA shoot out should be in the top 10 list:

http://youtu.be/Ofbvgjl6MhA


Oooh, AR-18 goodness.

The beltway snipers should NOT be included. That's not a shootout, its a series of single shot shoot-n-scoots followed by two pussies surrendering immediately when law enforcement finally pointed a gun at THEM.
Link Posted: 11/20/2011 9:07:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By flyhack72:
Anyone notice that the guy's 1911 jammed on him. What no fanboys coming to his rescue???

Another reason to have a G21!!!

Good read. I agree, Waco should have been on that list.



I saw that and thought the same thing.

Davis pulled out a sawn-off shotgun, while Twining grabbed a semi-automatic Colt 1911 .45 ACP. After firing one shot, Twinning’s .45 jammed, but he simply grabbed another one out of the car and exited out the driver’s side.
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