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Posted: 4/19/2007 12:22:16 PM EDT
No matter how much the media harps on the Oklahoma City bombing, let us all remember that it all started over a bunch of fake hand grenades ("complaint department, take a number") that some UPS dumbass reported to the federal government.  Let us all remember that 79 men, women, girls, and boys lost their lives because a bunch of jack-booted thugs wanted to increase their visibility to Congress ahead of budget hearings for their bureau of tax inspectors.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 12:39:04 PM EDT
This will be good! [popcorn]

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 12:40:35 PM EDT

Quoted:
Meantime in the real world...................breaking news: nobody cares.



+1
It is over,

did not care then,

don't care now!

As stated, they both got what they wanted.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 12:51:11 PM EDT
whatthefuckever
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 1:01:44 PM EDT

Quoted:
Let us all remember that 79 men, women, girls, and boys lost their lives because a bunch of jack-booted thugs wanted to increase their visibility to Congress ahead of budget hearings for their bureau of tax inspectors.

Yeah, it had nothing to do with a bunch of morons letting a psychotic cult leader control their every move.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 1:04:42 PM EDT
so the .gov can accuse people of crimes simply to get warrents ..  
make a media show of your take down < that was the plan >


fuck it up and it doesnt matter  ?

ok





what has really happened is that it has turned taboo to talk about.


Link Posted: 4/19/2007 1:28:37 PM EDT
ATF was looking for a fight and got one.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:45:56 PM EDT

Quoted:
Meantime in the real world...................breaking news: nobody cares.



Speak for yourself.  I care very much.  I would have given my life to save some of those people.

-Ben
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:47:25 PM EDT


I like where this is going.

IBTL
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:47:27 PM EDT

Quoted:
ATF was looking for a fight and got one.


+1

The FBI was there to Fuck it up even more.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:47:33 PM EDT
You know what David Koresh was wearing when they found his body?
­



Wait for it.....
Charcoal Pants and a Smoking Jacket
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:50:21 PM EDT

Quoted:
Let us also remember the allegations of child molestation.

Of the 79 that died, only the children get my sympathy. The rest were total nut jobs and probably would have ended up like the Jonestown crazy cult. Fuck 'em.

Yes the JBTs were in the wrong too. But I refuse to put those crazy fuckers on a pedestal, they won't get any boo hooing from me.


+1111111111111
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:54:02 PM EDT
I guess the bottom line for me is, I think the government should stay out of people's business. I'm not a goof ball like Koresh was (he was really out there), but if anyone attempts to enter my home, they'll get what Koresh gave. A man's home and family are not to be messed with.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 4:59:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:05:49 PM EDT
Howell killed his own flock.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:05:55 PM EDT
You'd think I'd get tired of being in a perpetual state of pissed off ed.

WACO demonstrated that the feds can get away with murder. All they have to do is follow the play book of the racist, but instead of tossing out the race card the intended victims get called all kinds of things. Whatever happens to be the latest 'scary' bad guy. Most often it's red-neck, racists, kkk, arsenal owning, gun shooting, quad riding, moonshine drinking, marlboro smoking, white guys. Or it's gheto pimp drug crazed sex starved balcks, or illegal drug crazed sex starved aztlan mexicans, or baby poppin' hoochie momma soap opera prescription drug steak buying ling driving welfare momma.

Operation SHOW TIME demonstrated that they can turn America against our own with innuendo and lies. Others in history have mastered propoganda, but we've taken it to a whole new level.

All the while we (gun owners) sit and declare "I will take out everyone who tries to take mine. And I will defend my brothers". The feds decide someone has gotten to uppidy for their own good and decide to make an example for the rest of us. The first thing they do is say theu did something illegal, then they say they were into dugs, then they say they were into kiddie porn. Then they laugh as we jump all over ouselves in order to put some distance between us the 'good guys' and that 'bad guy' so we don't get tarnished with the same broad brush. Claiming ignorance. "I knew he like guns, he helped me with several of mine, but I didn't know he liked to smoke crack and kiddie pole. Ewwwww. I'm glad he got nabbed by the feds. Funny though, I've known him my whole life. He lived with me f or a while after his divorce and I never knew. Damn those bastards sure are sneaky."
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:08:02 PM EDT

Quoted:
I guess the bottom line for me is, I think the government should stay out of people's business. I'm not a goof ball like Koresh was (he was really out there), but if anyone attempts to enter my home, they'll get what Koresh gave. A man's home and family are not to be messed with.



+1
Regardless if they were nutjobs, goofballs, or whatever else people want to call them, I've never read anything about them being there against their will. They were living their lives by themselves, peacefully, doing what they chose to do, not bothering anyone else. I find it very ironic that people will label these folks nutjobs, for having certain religious beliefs, and say they got what they deserved. But as long as it's a religion that's accepted by society, such as christianity, then it's ok to believe the unbelievable.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:10:00 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
I guess the bottom line for me is, I think the government should stay out of people's business. I'm not a goof ball like Koresh was (he was really out there), but if anyone attempts to enter my home, they'll get what Koresh gave. A man's home and family are not to be messed with.



+1
Regardless if they were nutjobs, goofballs, or whatever else people want to call them, I've never read anything about them being there against their will. They were living their lives by themselves, peacefully, doing what they chose to do, not bothering anyone else. I find it very ironic that people will label these folks nutjobs, for having certain religious beliefs, and say they got what they deserved. But as long as it's a religion that's accepted by society, such as christianity, then it's ok to believe the unbelievable.



Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well.

YMMV
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:10:30 PM EDT

Quoted:
Let us also remember the allegations of child molestation.

Of the 79 that died, only the children get my sympathy. The rest were total nut jobs and probably would have ended up like the Jonestown crazy cult. Fuck 'em.

Yes the JBTs were in the wrong too. But I refuse to put those crazy fuckers on a pedestal, they won't get any boo hooing from me.


So it is ATF's job to investigate and prosecute family law in localities? Help me out here.

When did a (at the time) Treasury Dept. agency get jurisdiction over local family law and child protective services in a state and town? I'm dense.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:25:14 PM EDT

Quoted:
I guess the bottom line for me is, I think the government should stay out of people's business. I'm not a goof ball like Koresh was (he was really out there), but if anyone attempts to enter my home, they'll get what Koresh gave. A man's home and family are not to be messed with.


Society makes rules/laws to govern itself.  One breaks said rule/law, theres consequences.

There are rules/laws in EVERY society, written/spoken/or not.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:32:22 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I guess the bottom line for me is, I think the government should stay out of people's business. I'm not a goof ball like Koresh was (he was really out there), but if anyone attempts to enter my home, they'll get what Koresh gave. A man's home and family are not to be messed with.



+1
Regardless if they were nutjobs, goofballs, or whatever else people want to call them, I've never read anything about them being there against their will. They were living their lives by themselves, peacefully, doing what they chose to do, not bothering anyone else. I find it very ironic that people will label these folks nutjobs, for having certain religious beliefs, and say they got what they deserved. But as long as it's a religion that's accepted by society, such as christianity, then it's ok to believe the unbelievable.



Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well.

YMMV



I agree.  But that seems to be an accepted thing in todays society. How many people cheat on their spouse? How many "swingers" are there out there? I don't think it's right, but it's their business.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:41:14 PM EDT
I feel sorry for the kids.  The parents made their choice to die when they fired on Federal Agents serving a legal search warrant.  At that point, they chose to get themselves killed along with endangering their kids.  

The Adults get zero sympathy.  Stupid hurts...or burns in their case.  

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:43:04 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I guess the bottom line for me is, I think the government should stay out of people's business. I'm not a goof ball like Koresh was (he was really out there), but if anyone attempts to enter my home, they'll get what Koresh gave. A man's home and family are not to be messed with.



+1
Regardless if they were nutjobs, goofballs, or whatever else people want to call them, I've never read anything about them being there against their will. They were living their lives by themselves, peacefully, doing what they chose to do, not bothering anyone else. I find it very ironic that people will label these folks nutjobs, for having certain religious beliefs, and say they got what they deserved. But as long as it's a religion that's accepted by society, such as christianity, then it's ok to believe the unbelievable.



Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well.

YMMV



+1


But, it was botched and I blame .gov for the most part...
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 5:46:43 PM EDT

Quoted:

The Adults get zero sympathy.  Stupid hurts...or burns in their case.  



Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:02:25 PM EDT

...Let us also remember the allegations of child molestation...

...Yeah, it had nothing to do with a bunch of morons letting a psychotic cult leader control their every move...

...Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well...


The above quotes come from this thread as implied justification for the actions of the ATF on 28 Feb or of the FBI 19 Apr 1993.

Question. Where is it in the federal statutes that states that the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, a bureau of the United States Treasury (in 1993), or the FBI from the US Dept. of Justice, have jurisdiction over state and local family law?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:10:22 PM EDT
It was exactly the governments actions at Ruby Ridge and Waco that made me realize I need to get serious about personal armament. This is one great country, but it used to be better when we new what it meant to be an American.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:17:26 PM EDT

Quoted:

...Let us also remember the allegations of child molestation...

...Yeah, it had nothing to do with a bunch of morons letting a psychotic cult leader control their every move...

...Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well...


The above quotes come from this thread as implied justification for the actions of the ATF on 28 Feb or of the FBI 19 Apr 1993.

Question. Where is it in the federal statutes that states that the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, a bureau of the United States Treasury (in 1993), or the FBI from the US Dept. of Justice, have jurisdiction over state and local family law?


I never implied in my response to this thread that a pastor fucking the other members wives and daughters while the member gets to stroke what's left of his manhood in the outhouse had anything to do with ANY .gov law or rule.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 6:25:20 PM EDT
I watched the coverage of the initial siege and the final assault, was quite young at the time.  All the media coverage made it cut and dried, these were criminals that got what they deserved.  Then I learned more about jurisdictions, and saw Waco - The Rules of Engagement (www.imdb.com/title/tt0120472/)on the History Channel.  I watched it thinking I'd see the usual anti government propaganda, but instead saw a reasoned documentary that showed some of Koresh's speeches/video, and coverage of the Congressional hearings into the final standoff.

All I know is, if Chuckie Schumer is on one side of things...the truth is on the other.   ATF may not have set out to murder...but the thing was one big clusterfuck.  
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:44:18 PM EDT

Quoted:
Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well.

YMMV


Worked great for Mohammed!
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:51:46 PM EDT

Quoted:

...Let us also remember the allegations of child molestation...

...Yeah, it had nothing to do with a bunch of morons letting a psychotic cult leader control their every move...

...Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well...


The above quotes come from this thread as implied justification for the actions of the ATF on 28 Feb or of the FBI 19 Apr 1993.

Question. Where is it in the federal statutes that states that the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, a bureau of the United States Treasury (in 1993), or the FBI from the US Dept. of Justice, have jurisdiction over state and local family law?


Don't quote me out of context,

I never said anything to lead you to believe that I thought the assault on the Branch Davidian compound was justified.

Had those religious whackos been anything like those other religious whackos, (the ones we love to hate) this wouldn't even be an issue.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:54:56 PM EDT

Quoted:
Howell killed his own flock.


He sure did.

And he used ATF Battering Ram Tank

Fed Helicopters

CS gas canisters

Justice Department Media Relations for the press release about the raid.

And the Stormtroopers were his idea too.

The ATf was only there on scene to make the coffee and talk to Katie Couric or schedule press briefings.

The rest was Koresh's master plan to make it LOOK LIKE the Fed Gov was raiding and then burning down the whole place.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 7:59:36 PM EDT

Quoted:
t all started over a bunch of fake hand grenades ("complaint department, take a number") that some UPS dumbass reported to the federal government.  Let us all remember that 79 men, women, girls, and boys lost their lives because a bunch of jack-booted thugs wanted to increase their visibility to Congress ahead of budget hearings for their bureau of tax inspectors.



+1

Tyrannical JBT bullshit, otherwise known as state sponsored terrorism domestic style.

Link Posted: 4/19/2007 8:09:27 PM EDT
+1, since when was the ATF given power to investigate child molestation allegations? Here in Texas that's usually CPS's job. BTW I don't think anybody who's serious will not agree that Koresh and many of his followers were kooks, no doubt. But Slick Willie and his JBT's were looking to lay down the law and boy did they get it! They could have easily got Koresh anytime they wanted since he was in town quite a bit, also the local sheriff was on good terms with him and to his dying day said if the Gov. had let him handle it all that chaos could have been prevented.

Quoted:

...Let us also remember the allegations of child molestation...

...Yeah, it had nothing to do with a bunch of morons letting a psychotic cult leader control their every move...

...Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well...


The above quotes come from this thread as implied justification for the actions of the ATF on 28 Feb or of the FBI 19 Apr 1993.

Question. Where is it in the federal statutes that states that the bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, a bureau of the United States Treasury (in 1993), or the FBI from the US Dept. of Justice, have jurisdiction over state and local family law?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 9:56:12 PM EDT
The Feds lied about there being a meth lab.

The Feds lied about using the CS gas.

The Feds somehow "lost" possibly the most important piece of evidence they say supported their version of the story, the front door.

And now I am to believe them when they tell me that they pulled up to the front of the CHURCH with a horse trailer full of para-military ninja suited agents with fully automatic weapons to simply serve a search warrant.

BTW, when did it become a crime to be a cult leader in this country?
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 10:00:56 PM EDT

Quoted:
Let us also remember the allegations of child molestation.

Of the 79 that died, only the children get my sympathy. The rest were total nut jobs and probably would have ended up like the Jonestown crazy cult. Fuck 'em.

Yes the JBTs were in the wrong too. But I refuse to put those crazy fuckers on a pedestal, they won't get any boo hooing from me.


The Branch-Davidian sect of the 7th Day Adventists had been in Waco since 1935.
They were not some sort of overnight religious cult.
If the gov't had left them alone, nothing would have happened, just like Randy Weaver.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 10:03:06 PM EDT

Quoted:

Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well.

YMMV


I wasn't aware that was 1) in violation of the law or 2) something that fell under the jurisdiction of the ATF.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 10:04:27 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
I guess the bottom line for me is, I think the government should stay out of people's business. I'm not a goof ball like Koresh was (he was really out there), but if anyone attempts to enter my home, they'll get what Koresh gave. A man's home and family are not to be messed with.


Society makes rules/laws to govern itself.  One breaks said rule/law, theres consequences.

There are rules/laws in EVERY society, written/spoken/or not.


The government doesn't get to enforce "unwritten" laws.
Some of you don't seem to understand the precepts that this nation was founded on.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 10:57:23 PM EDT

Quoted:
Let us also remember the allegations of child molestation.

Of the 79 that died, only the children get my sympathy. The rest were total nut jobs and probably would have ended up like the Jonestown crazy cult. Fuck 'em.

Yes the JBTs were in the wrong too. But I refuse to put those crazy fuckers on a pedestal, they won't get any boo hooing from me.


My thoughts exactly.
Link Posted: 4/19/2007 11:05:26 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I guess the bottom line for me is, I think the government should stay out of people's business. I'm not a goof ball like Koresh was (he was really out there), but if anyone attempts to enter my home, they'll get what Koresh gave. A man's home and family are not to be messed with.


Society makes rules/laws to govern itself.  One breaks said rule/law, theres consequences.

There are rules/laws in EVERY society, written/spoken/or not.


The government doesn't get to enforce "unwritten" laws.
Some of you don't seem to understand the precepts that this nation was founded on.


I wasnt aware I said "the government gets to enforce unwritten laws".

Please dont put words into my mouth, Doc.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 4:34:05 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I guess the bottom line for me is, I think the government should stay out of people's business. I'm not a goof ball like Koresh was (he was really out there), but if anyone attempts to enter my home, they'll get what Koresh gave. A man's home and family are not to be messed with.


Society makes rules/laws to govern itself.  One breaks said rule/law, theres consequences.

There are rules/laws in EVERY society, written/spoken/or not.


The government doesn't get to enforce "unwritten" laws.
Some of you don't seem to understand the precepts that this nation was founded on.


I wasnt aware I said "the government gets to enforce unwritten laws".

Please dont put words into my mouth, Doc.


Actually, the part in red is were you did say that there are unwritten laws that have consequences for those that break them. You probably didn't mean it that way but that's what you wrote.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 5:06:47 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well.

YMMV


I wasn't aware that was 1) in violation of the law or 2) something that fell under the jurisdiction of the ATF.


Never said it did. Common sense can go a long ways.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 7:00:11 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well.

YMMV


I wasn't aware that was 1) in violation of the law or 2) something that fell under the jurisdiction of the ATF.


Never said it did. Common sense can go a long ways.


+1 however you do need a legal reason to justify a raid or burning down a place.

Common sense is not reason to kick in doors, you need a warrant or probable cause.

The ATF had neither as evidenced and ruled on in Congressional hearings.

It was a Janet Reno Power Display.

Even Fred Thompson said it best.."So let me get this straight... all of this was over 2 sawed off shotguns??"

Link Posted: 4/20/2007 7:02:33 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well.

YMMV


I wasn't aware that was 1) in violation of the law or 2) something that fell under the jurisdiction of the ATF.


Never said it did. Common sense can go a long ways.


+1 however you do need a legal reason to justify a raid or burning down a place.

Common sense is not reason to kick in doors, you need a warrant or probable cause.

The ATF had neither as evidenced and ruled on in Congressional hearings.

It was a Janet Reno Power Display.

Even Fred Thompson said it best.."So let me get this straight... all of this was over 2 sawed off shotguns??"


That's Ruby Ridge.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 7:04:08 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well.

YMMV


I wasn't aware that was 1) in violation of the law or 2) something that fell under the jurisdiction of the ATF.


Never said it did. Common sense can go a long ways.


+1 however you do need a legal reason to justify a raid or burning down a place.

Common sense is not reason to kick in doors, you need a warrant or probable cause.

The ATF had neither as evidenced and ruled on in Congressional hearings.

It was a Janet Reno Power Display.

Even Fred Thompson said it best.."So let me get this straight... all of this was over 2 sawed off shotguns??"



I have made NO mention of anything concerning the laws or of the ATF/FBI.

Just common sense that if a pastor is fucking the other members wives and daughters while the member only get's to wack his dick things are not going to end well. Nothing more.

And Howell burned his own church.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 7:07:22 AM EDT

Quoted:
It was exactly the governments actions at Ruby Ridge and Waco that made me realize I need to get serious about personal armament. This is one great country, but it used to be better when we new what it meant to be an American.



+1


Haven't trusted LEOs or government agents since.  They will obediently do as they are told.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 7:08:01 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well.

YMMV


I wasn't aware that was 1) in violation of the law or 2) something that fell under the jurisdiction of the ATF.


Never said it did. Common sense can go a long ways.


+1 however you do need a legal reason to justify a raid or burning down a place.

Common sense is not reason to kick in doors, you need a warrant or probable cause.

The ATF had neither as evidenced and ruled on in Congressional hearings.

It was a Janet Reno Power Display.

Even Fred Thompson said it best.."So let me get this straight... all of this was over 2 sawed off shotguns??"


That's Ruby Ridge.



ooops! Sorry had a Fred Thompson sugar high.


I got my JBT heroism topics mixed up sorry bout that.

Link Posted: 4/20/2007 7:11:01 AM EDT

Quoted:
Howell killed his own flock.


I guess I missed the part where he turned on the CS generators and waited till it was a at a lethal/flamable level, then lit a marlboro...

Howell was a grade A nutbar-but it is blatantly obvious who the real badguys were.
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 7:12:02 AM EDT
I dont believe the amount of BS in this thread, they violated his rights, gassed women and children but since I think he is a ______, its OK.

No wonder we have fallen so far, people supporting government sponsored terrorism!
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 7:13:08 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
It was exactly the governments actions at Ruby Ridge and Waco that made me realize I need to get serious about personal armament. This is one great country, but it used to be better when we new what it meant to be an American.



+1


Haven't trusted LEOs or government agents since.  They will obediently do as they are told.



Amen to that!
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 7:14:22 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Any church where the pastor fucks the other members wives and daughters is not going to end well.

YMMV


I wasn't aware that was 1) in violation of the law or 2) something that fell under the jurisdiction of the ATF.


Maybe he was drunk, smoking a Marlboro, and shooting a gun into the air while he was fucking them?
Link Posted: 4/20/2007 12:16:07 PM EDT
People getting fucked by the government thats news to me
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