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Posted: 6/18/2014 5:17:53 AM EDT
It doesn't really matter. For those that put a bunch of weight on MPI'ed bolts being better than non-MPI'ed bolts....I present this...
Bolt had less than 200rnds through it. Didn't even have any lug wear yet. Broke at the cam pin hole (obviously). No malfunctions or issue prior to that. MFG will go un-named until they're contacted. |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 9:26:18 AM EDT
[#1]
MPI testing is used to try to identify any impurities and/or imperfections in metals/alloys. Its mealy a test.
Out of curosity, what is the bolt and carrier made of? Manufacturer would help also.
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Posted: 6/16/2014 9:29:49 AM EDT
[#2]
I guess you should reach out to BCM, Colt, DD, Noveske, Spikes, S&W, etc. etc. and let them know that that "it really doesn't matter."
The cam pin hole is the most common failure point on a bolt. It happens. MPI was never intended to be a "guarantee." I think you may be overreacting a bit here. |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 9:33:02 AM EDT
[#3]
It's milspec....C158 bolt. The reason I bothered posting it was because some people think an MPI'ed bolt is infallible....when it's not.
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Posted: 6/16/2014 9:46:42 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
It's milspec....C158 bolt. The reason I bothered posting it was because some people think an MPI'ed bolt is infallible....when it's not. It simply gives you a better chance of it not breaking, However obviously all things can break. I keep a spare bolt in my grip for this reason. |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 9:49:32 AM EDT
[#5]
Correct on both accounts. Each of my AR's carry a spare bolt in a MIAD, as well as misc small parts in the stock compartments.
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Posted: 6/16/2014 9:55:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
I guess you should reach out to BCM, Colt, DD, Noveske, Spikes, S&W, etc. etc. and let them know that that "it really doesn't matter." The cam pin hole is the most common failure point on a bolt. It happens. MPI was never intended to be a "guarantee." I think you may be overreacting a bit here. No shit...hence why I've shared this little bit of information. It really doensn't matter if you're MPI'ing every single bolt, batches, or not at all. Failures CAN happen so stop looking at "the chart" and get out there and shoot. If it breaks...it breaks. Bolts are cheap. |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 10:00:45 AM EDT
[#7]
Everything can and will break, this is why it is good to have spares.
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Posted: 6/16/2014 10:05:12 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
It doesn't really matter. For those that put a bunch of weight on MPI'ed bolts being better than non-MPI'ed bolts....I present this... It sounds like you are saying there is no difference and that MPI is worthless. I believe that's where the friction from people are coming from. You basically said (or it comes across that way) that MPI are on par with non MPI which if I have my choice I'll choose MPI over non MPI any day. I would have more confidence in it, Again it still could break though. |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 10:26:01 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I guess you should reach out to BCM, Colt, DD, Noveske, Spikes, S&W, etc. etc. and let them know that that "it really doesn't matter." The cam pin hole is the most common failure point on a bolt. It happens. MPI was never intended to be a "guarantee." I think you may be overreacting a bit here. No shit...hence why I've shared this little bit of information. It really doensn't matter if you're MPI'ing every single bolt, batches, or not at all. Failures CAN happen so stop looking at "the chart" and get out there and shoot. If it breaks...it breaks. Bolts are cheap. Now you are definitely overreacting. |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 10:57:25 AM EDT
[#10]
So go get parts that are not MPI inspected. MPI doesnt gurantee anything other then it has no metallurigical flaws in production...what hapoens after that is up to you.
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Posted: 6/16/2014 11:03:51 AM EDT
[#11]
Nope...not at all...
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Posted: 6/16/2014 11:07:10 AM EDT
[#12]
MPI, et al., does not guarantee a part will be problem-free, but all of the QA and testing sure does increase the odds of having a good part. True with cars, guns, whatever.
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Posted: 6/16/2014 11:09:18 AM EDT
[#13]
Sucks about the bolt breaking.
MPI has a statistically insignificant rejection rate and is unnecessary. 99.99+% of bolts pass the MPI inspection, but it still adds to the cost of your bolt. |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 11:14:05 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Sucks about the bolt breaking. MPI has a statistically insignificant rejection rate and is unnecessary. 99.99+% of bolts pass the MPI inspection, but it still adds to the cost of your bolt. Notwithstanding the fact that you have absolutely no way of knowing the MPI pass rate of bolts among all of the manufacturers, if it is unnecessary, then why are BCM, DD, Noveske, Spikes, etc., etc. doing it on each bolt? You seriously believe that you know something that they don't? |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 11:14:44 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
It doesn't really matter. For those that put a bunch of weight on MPI'ed bolts being better than non-MPI'ed bolts....I present this... It sounds like you are saying there is no difference and that MPI is worthless. I believe that's where the friction from people are coming from. You basically said (or it comes across that way) that MPI are on par with non MPI which if I have my choice I'll choose MPI over non MPI any day. I would have more confidence in it, Again it still could break though. You are correct...apparently I'm peeing in their Cheerios for saying exactly what they're saying...that MPI guarantees absolutely nothing and MPI bolts can still break. I'd continue to purchase bolts made from a known quality MFG regardless of whether they MPI every bolt or not. Hilarity ensues when those who pray to the chart gods get their panties in a wad when someone disagrees with them. Look at it this way...MPI testing bolts carried over from QC requirements for large contracts (military...etc.). If Colt stopped MPI'ing the bolts on their civilian rifles tomorrow, yet continued to use the same materials and procedures in the manufacturing process, who here actually believes you are receiving a lower quality product? MPI rejection rates are abysmally low. Machines break...simple as that. |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 11:17:07 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sucks about the bolt breaking. MPI has a statistically insignificant rejection rate and is unnecessary. 99.99+% of bolts pass the MPI inspection, but it still adds to the cost of your bolt. Notwithstanding the fact that you have absolutely no way of knowing the MPI pass rate of bolts among all of the manufacturers, if it is unnecessary, then why are BCM, DD, Noveske, Spikes, etc., etc. doing it on each bolt? You seriously believe that you know something that they don't? It's called marketing. Some people (they're pretty easy to ID) won't buy something unless "milspec" is attached to it. |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 11:20:56 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Nope...not at all... I understand what your trying to say OP so I won't give you any grief over it. What I would like to know is: specifically, what ammo were you using? I like using stuff loaded a little on the hot side but very much within the load parameters. I always felt shooting stuff hotter than necessary is a lot of stress on a bolt at the cam pin hole. I'm sure you weren't using hot hand loads though OP. That bolt shouldn't have cracked like that in 200 rounds... |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 11:30:58 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I guess you should reach out to BCM, Colt, DD, Noveske, Spikes, S&W, etc. etc. and let them know that that "it really doesn't matter." The cam pin hole is the most common failure point on a bolt. It happens. MPI was never intended to be a "guarantee." I think you may be overreacting a bit here. No shit...hence why I've shared this little bit of information. It really doensn't matter if you're MPI'ing every single bolt, batches, or not at all. Failures CAN happen so stop looking at "the chart" and get out there and shoot. If it breaks...it breaks. Bolts are cheap. Unless it breaks while you're using it in a life threatening event. Failures do happen but I want something with a low failure rate. |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 11:35:41 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Nope...not at all... I understand what your trying to say OP so I won't give you any grief over it. What I would like to know is: specifically, what ammo were you using? I like using stuff loaded a little on the hot side but very much within the load parameters. I always felt shooting stuff hotter than necessary is a lot of stress on a bolt at the cam pin hole. I'm sure you weren't using hot hand loads though OP. That bolt shouldn't have cracked like that in 200 rounds... Fed M193. |
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Posted: 6/18/2014 4:07:39 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sucks about the bolt breaking. MPI has a statistically insignificant rejection rate and is unnecessary. 99.99+% of bolts pass the MPI inspection, but it still adds to the cost of your bolt. Notwithstanding the fact that you have absolutely no way of knowing the MPI pass rate of bolts among all of the manufacturers, if it is unnecessary, then why are BCM, DD, Noveske, Spikes, etc., etc. doing it on each bolt? You seriously believe that you know something that they don't? All those companies you listed are marketed to folks who want a mil spec rifle. Doesn't mil spec call for mpi tests on the bolt? Point is they might just do it knowing it's what the people they're marketing to likes to see. Not that they know or care if it causes or reduces failures. A commercial company that markets to folks who want an ar but probably don't care or know what's in a "mil spec" rifle probably could cheapen it down by bypassing the tests or using cheaper material. I had a friend who bought this cheap rifle and I told him he might want to get a new bcg. It wasn't staked, didn't have the hp/mpi stamp and I was worried. He told me he shot 1000s of rounds he's not going to replace something that isn't broken. Point is at the end of the day if it goes bang that is good enough for most ar owners out there. Generally speaking most ar owners don't use their rifle beyond the range or basic hunting. We probably shoot a few hundred rounds per session. We probably shoot one or two rounds hunting. Chances are you'll get by fine with or without a mpi/hp tested bolt. Most of us on ar15 never had a "serious" use of the ar system. Even military that uses th ar face against people who poorly maintain their rifles like in Virtnam, Iraq, afghan, Somalia, and other countries. Sure their gun probably jams a lot but our enemy still are capable of shooting it. They don't sit there going, "oh no they mpi/hp tests their both we are probably doomed." For the record I have a bcm bolt. I notice the tc here is withholding the manufacturer of his bolt either on purpose or ignoring. I know the cam pin a common failure and yeah it breaks sometimes but I never see that on military rifles. |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 9:48:03 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: MPI by itself is worthless without HPT. KAC and Larue don't agree with you... That's great. The rest of the serious use AR world does. I could care less what boutique brands do / think. Larue...botique...sure if you say so. KAC...no not in the slightest.... Centurion does not HPT their bolts either. Hardly a boutique brand. |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 10:03:22 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
So your bolt breaks and, suddenly, inspections are a worhtless marketing tool? Too small of a sample, bro. The point....you missed it. |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 10:06:18 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
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MPI by itself is worthless without HPT. KAC and Larue don't agree with you... That's great. The rest of the serious use AR world does. I could care less what boutique brands do / think. Larue...botique...sure if you say so. KAC...no not in the slightest.... Centurion does not HPT their bolts either. Hardly a boutique brand. Oh, they are both very much boutique! Esp a company that only offers proprietary gas, barrel and bolt systems on their ARs. |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 10:18:29 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Oh, they are both very much boutique! Esp a company that only offers proprietary gas, barrel and bolt systems on their ARs. And happens to supply a whole bunch of firearms to the US military through almost all branches...sure...botique...  Topic for another thread...now run along to the GD...
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Posted: 6/17/2014 10:20:30 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
And there are lots of people critical of their process. Maybe they have a much tighter quality control on their metal selection and hardening process. Maybe they live on luck? I have a great Centurion barrel. I won't own their bolts. If you own them cool. To each their own. Because Centurion does or doesn't, doesn't make it an industry standard. I think, from what I see, hard use equipment industry standard is geared a lot more to HPT/MPI. Not the cure all end all, but gives you a real good idea about where your product stands. Individual testing is where it is at also. Don't own a Centurion bolt at the moment, I was just making at point that it wasn't just the boutique brands. I'm not a huge fan of HP testing. I work Quality Assurance in the aerospace industry and any test that required overloading or putting additional strain on a component would be considered a destruct test, that part would never fly. However that's apples and oranges as a bolt that were built to aerospace standards would cost 1k+. For an AR-15 bolt, it would depend on the company. I wouldn't buy a non-tested bolt from an unknown mfr. However would be more likely to if the company had a higher reputation or history. For example with KAC, they don't HPT their bolts, and I don't think there has been a documented case of one of their E3 bolts ever breaking. Now a big part of that is the design, however mistakes in material and manufacturing can still happen. You can have the best design in the world but if you don't build it right, it'll still fail. |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 10:52:34 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
And there are lots of people critical of their process. Maybe they have a much tighter quality control on their metal selection and hardening process. Maybe they live on luck? I have a great Centurion barrel. I won't own their bolts. If you own them cool. To each their own. Because Centurion does or doesn't, doesn't make it an industry standard. I think, from what I see, hard use equipment industry standard is geared a lot more to HPT/MPI. Not the cure all end all, but gives you a real good idea about where your product stands. Individual testing is where it is at also. Don't own a Centurion bolt at the moment, I was just making at point that it wasn't just the boutique brands. I'm not a huge fan of HP testing. I work Quality Assurance in the aerospace industry and any test that required overloading or putting additional strain on a component would be considered a destruct test, that part would never fly. However that's apples and oranges as a bolt that were built to aerospace standards would cost 1k+. For an AR-15 bolt, it would depend on the company. I wouldn't buy a non-tested bolt from an unknown mfr. However would be more likely to if the company had a higher reputation or history. For example with KAC, they don't HPT their bolts, and I don't think there has been a documented case of one of their E3 bolts ever breaking. Now a big part of that is the design, however mistakes in material and manufacturing can still happen. You can have the best design in the world but if you don't build it right, it'll still fail. Someone gets it at least... 
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Posted: 6/17/2014 11:19:15 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Oh, they are both very much boutique! Esp a company that only offers proprietary gas, barrel and bolt systems on their ARs. And happens to supply a whole bunch of firearms to the US military through almost all branches...sure...botique... Topic for another thread...now run along to the GD...Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed where they supply M4 carbines or 5.56 rifles to the military.... Yeah, go ahead, run along to the GD. |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 11:27:03 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
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Oh, they are both very much boutique! Esp a company that only offers proprietary gas, barrel and bolt systems on their ARs. And happens to supply a whole bunch of firearms to the US military through almost all branches...sure...botique... Topic for another thread...now run along to the GD...Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed where they supply M4 carbines or 5.56 rifles to the military.... Yeah, go ahead, run along to the GD. You sound like an expert on all matters military alright... Congrats...you're only the second internet expert to make my ignore list in 14 years of ARFCOM... 
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Posted: 6/17/2014 11:29:17 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
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Oh, they are both very much boutique! Esp a company that only offers proprietary gas, barrel and bolt systems on their ARs. And happens to supply a whole bunch of firearms to the US military through almost all branches...sure...botique... Topic for another thread...now run along to the GD...Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed where they supply M4 carbines or 5.56 rifles to the military.... Yeah, go ahead, run along to the GD. You sound like an expert on all matters military alright... Congrats...you're only the second internet expert to make my ignore list in 14 years of ARFCOM... Yes. Blocking someone who you are unable to counter debate logically with facts and reason is most likely a good move for you... |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 11:49:46 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Oh, they are both very much boutique! Esp a company that only offers proprietary gas, barrel and bolt systems on their ARs. And happens to supply a whole bunch of firearms to the US military through almost all branches...sure...botique... Topic for another thread...now run along to the GD...Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed where they supply M4 carbines or 5.56 rifles to the military.... Yeah, go ahead, run along to the GD. You sound like an expert on all matters military alright... Congrats...you're only the second internet expert to make my ignore list in 14 years of ARFCOM... Yes. Blocking someone who you are unable to counter debate logically with facts and reason is most likely a good move for you... Dude, you're not just a guy who doesn't know you don't know. You're putting information out that is inaccurate. |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 11:50:48 AM EDT
[#31]
I don't need to argue with an "internet expert" on whether or not a company who produces dozens of products (M110, M110K, dozens of rails/mounts/sights/etc) in widespread .mil use is a "botique" or not. I certainly don't need a milspec chaser to tell me that without the magical MPI stamped bolt, a rifle will suddenly fail (a logic in which the pic in the OP obviously disagrees with). And I most definitely don't need to argue with an individual who doesn't understand I couldn't care less about the entire situation...broken bolt and all. I posted the picture to make a point that the "Tier 1" firearms/parts coveted so deeply by some can still break (assuming they actually get used), and in jest to those in the "I'm going to buy a new barrel because mine isn't parked under the front sight base" crowd. Off to shoot my botique guns...
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Posted: 6/17/2014 11:58:02 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
I don't need to argue with an "internet expert" on whether or not a company who produces dozens of products (M110, M110K, dozens of rails/mounts/sights/etc) in widespread .mil use is a "botique" or not. I certainly don't need a milspec chaser to tell me that without the magical MPI stamped bolt, a rifle will suddenly fail (a logic in which the pic in the OP obviously disagrees with). And I most definitely don't need to argue with an individual who doesn't understand I couldn't care less about the entire situation...broken bolt and all. I posted the picture to make a point that the "Tier 1" firearms/parts coveted so deeply by some can still break (assuming they actually get used), and in jest to those in the "I'm going to buy a new barrel because mine isn't parked under the front sight base" crowd. Off to shoot my botique guns... http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/IMAG0571-1_zpsb93f47d3.jpg This always seems to happen with KAC fanboys. They have almost a religious attachment and devotion to their company. Are those rifles you listed 5.56 rifles? Does providing accessories and parts to the military's 5.56 rifles automatically vet every other non contract novelty product / firearm you have? Keep in mind there are a LOT of companies that supply firearms and accessories to the military, so be careful with how you answer that. This again goes back to fanboyism and elitism. Is a DPMS rifle or BCG likely to fail? Yet, why do many people, such as yourself, insist on purchasing what the forum collectively considers "tier 1" rifles? |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 12:04:01 PM EDT
[#33]
I feel like you are implying that it is impossible to break a bolt that has been through the MPI process. Everything made by the hand of man will break, and even the best, highest quality items made in sufficient quantity will have a few mistakes slip through. By getting an MPI bolt, you are basically decreasing your odds of having a faulty bolt, but you are NOT illuminating the odds.
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Posted: 6/17/2014 12:07:46 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Oh, they are both very much boutique! Esp a company that only offers proprietary gas, barrel and bolt systems on their ARs. And happens to supply a whole bunch of firearms to the US military through almost all branches...sure...botique... Topic for another thread...now run along to the GD...Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed where they supply M4 carbines or 5.56 rifles to the military.... Yeah, go ahead, run along to the GD. You sound like an expert on all matters military alright... Congrats...you're only the second internet expert to make my ignore list in 14 years of ARFCOM... Where is this ignore option you speak of? I've been needing it for a while. Or do I need to pay to be a team member for that? That could make it worthwhile. |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 12:24:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't need to argue with an "internet expert" on whether or not a company who produces dozens of products (M110, M110K, dozens of rails/mounts/sights/etc) in widespread .mil use is a "botique" or not. I certainly don't need a milspec chaser to tell me that without the magical MPI stamped bolt, a rifle will suddenly fail (a logic in which the pic in the OP obviously disagrees with). And I most definitely don't need to argue with an individual who doesn't understand I couldn't care less about the entire situation...broken bolt and all. I posted the picture to make a point that the "Tier 1" firearms/parts coveted so deeply by some can still break (assuming they actually get used), and in jest to those in the "I'm going to buy a new barrel because mine isn't parked under the front sight base" crowd. Off to shoot my botique guns... http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/IMAG0571-1_zpsb93f47d3.jpg This always seems to happen with KAC fanboys. They have almost a religious attachment and devotion to their company. Are those rifles you listed 5.56 rifles? Does providing accessories and parts to the military's 5.56 rifles automatically vet every other non contract novelty product / firearm you have? Keep in mind there are a LOT of companies that supply firearms and accessories to the military, so be careful with how you answer that. This again goes back to fanboyism and elitism. Is a DPMS rifle or BCG likely to fail? Yet, why do many people, such as yourself, insist on purchasing what the forum collectively considers "tier 1" rifles? You have proven the adage of what happens when one opens his mouth. Read more, post less. This topic has dies its natural death. MPI'd stuff breaks, OK? Everything can break. All the QA tests do is reduce the odds of a problem with the quality of the metal. |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 12:33:39 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't need to argue with an "internet expert" on whether or not a company who produces dozens of products (M110, M110K, dozens of rails/mounts/sights/etc) in widespread .mil use is a "botique" or not. I certainly don't need a milspec chaser to tell me that without the magical MPI stamped bolt, a rifle will suddenly fail (a logic in which the pic in the OP obviously disagrees with). And I most definitely don't need to argue with an individual who doesn't understand I couldn't care less about the entire situation...broken bolt and all. I posted the picture to make a point that the "Tier 1" firearms/parts coveted so deeply by some can still break (assuming they actually get used), and in jest to those in the "I'm going to buy a new barrel because mine isn't parked under the front sight base" crowd. Off to shoot my botique guns... http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/IMAG0571-1_zpsb93f47d3.jpg This always seems to happen with KAC fanboys. They have almost a religious attachment and devotion to their company. Are those rifles you listed 5.56 rifles? Does providing accessories and parts to the military's 5.56 rifles automatically vet every other non contract novelty product / firearm you have? Keep in mind there are a LOT of companies that supply firearms and accessories to the military, so be careful with how you answer that. This again goes back to fanboyism and elitism. Is a DPMS rifle or BCG likely to fail? Yet, why do many people, such as yourself, insist on purchasing what the forum collectively considers "tier 1" rifles? You have proven the adage of what happens when one opens his mouth. Read more, post less. This topic has dies its natural death. MPI'd stuff breaks, OK? Everything can break. All the QA tests do is reduce the odds of a problem with the quality of the metal. I think you're a little lost in the conversation, buddy, and I suggest maybe you re-read some of this thread before you type another word. All I said initially was that MPI isn't worth much without HPTing first. I still stand by that statement. I never said that MPI by itself was useful. The KAC fanboys them chimed in with how KAC MPI's without HPTing, so that's the way to go, etc. That's how this KAC pissing match all started. |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 1:03:30 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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I don't need to argue with an "internet expert" on whether or not a company who produces dozens of products (M110, M110K, dozens of rails/mounts/sights/etc) in widespread .mil use is a "botique" or not. I certainly don't need a milspec chaser to tell me that without the magical MPI stamped bolt, a rifle will suddenly fail (a logic in which the pic in the OP obviously disagrees with). And I most definitely don't need to argue with an individual who doesn't understand I couldn't care less about the entire situation...broken bolt and all. I posted the picture to make a point that the "Tier 1" firearms/parts coveted so deeply by some can still break (assuming they actually get used), and in jest to those in the "I'm going to buy a new barrel because mine isn't parked under the front sight base" crowd. Off to shoot my botique guns... http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/IMAG0571-1_zpsb93f47d3.jpg This always seems to happen with KAC fanboys. They have almost a religious attachment and devotion to their company. Are those rifles you listed 5.56 rifles? Does providing accessories and parts to the military's 5.56 rifles automatically vet every other non contract novelty product / firearm you have? Keep in mind there are a LOT of companies that supply firearms and accessories to the military, so be careful with how you answer that. This again goes back to fanboyism and elitism. Is a DPMS rifle or BCG likely to fail? Yet, why do many people, such as yourself, insist on purchasing what the forum collectively considers "tier 1" rifles? You have proven the adage of what happens when one opens his mouth. Read more, post less. This topic has dies its natural death. MPI'd stuff breaks, OK? Everything can break. All the QA tests do is reduce the odds of a problem with the quality of the metal. I think you're a little lost in the conversation, buddy, and I suggest maybe you re-read some of this thread before you type another word. All I said initially was that MPI isn't worth much without HPTing first. I still stand by that statement. I never said that MPI by itself was useful. The KAC fanboys them chimed in with how KAC MPI's without HPTing, so that's the way to go, etc. That's how this KAC pissing match all started. Yeah I'd venture to guess all 33 of his posts have gone the same way... |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 6:42:04 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
It's milspec....C158 bolt. The reason I bothered posting it was because some people think an MPI'ed bolt is infallible....when it's not. It's not, but that's not an excuse to intentionally buy crappier bolts. |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 6:48:22 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
MPI by itself is worthless without HPT. KAC and Larue don't agree with you... |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 6:50:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Why wait untll you contact the MFG? Are you going to ask for their blessing to tell us who they are?
Quoted:
It doesn't really matter. For those that put a bunch of weight on MPI'ed bolts being better than non-MPI'ed bolts....I present this...
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/10406477_628372127259209_8536541783443585242_n_zps80a7ae5a.jpg Bolt had less than 200rnds through it. Didn't even have any lug wear yet. Broke at the cam pin hole (obviously). No malfunctions or issue prior to that. MFG will go un-named until they're contacted. |
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Posted: 6/16/2014 6:53:21 PM EDT
[#41]
MPI is not overly important until after an HPT. As OP states it broke at it's common failure point if it's gonna fail. I prefer HPT/MPI. YMMV. Either way life goes on. Sorry about your bad luck with this bolt OP. Better luck with the next.
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Posted: 6/16/2014 6:59:26 PM EDT
[#42]
That carrier is not a FA (M16) carrier, it's a semi auto.
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Posted: 6/16/2014 7:46:16 PM EDT
[#43]
I took it as he was making a light hearted jab at the kind of people who will tell you an 8620 bolt is junk and will undoubtedly fail.
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Posted: 6/16/2014 7:56:30 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
That carrier is not a FA (M16) carrier, it's a semi auto. Yeah my bad.... |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 1:04:14 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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I don't need to argue with an "internet expert" on whether or not a company who produces dozens of products (M110, M110K, dozens of rails/mounts/sights/etc) in widespread .mil use is a "botique" or not. I certainly don't need a milspec chaser to tell me that without the magical MPI stamped bolt, a rifle will suddenly fail (a logic in which the pic in the OP obviously disagrees with). And I most definitely don't need to argue with an individual who doesn't understand I couldn't care less about the entire situation...broken bolt and all. I posted the picture to make a point that the "Tier 1" firearms/parts coveted so deeply by some can still break (assuming they actually get used), and in jest to those in the "I'm going to buy a new barrel because mine isn't parked under the front sight base" crowd. Off to shoot my botique guns... http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/IMAG0571-1_zpsb93f47d3.jpg This always seems to happen with KAC fanboys. They have almost a religious attachment and devotion to their company. Are those rifles you listed 5.56 rifles? Does providing accessories and parts to the military's 5.56 rifles automatically vet every other non contract novelty product / firearm you have? Keep in mind there are a LOT of companies that supply firearms and accessories to the military, so be careful with how you answer that. This again goes back to fanboyism and elitism. Is a DPMS rifle or BCG likely to fail? Yet, why do many people, such as yourself, insist on purchasing what the forum collectively considers "tier 1" rifles? You have proven the adage of what happens when one opens his mouth. Read more, post less. This topic has dies its natural death. MPI'd stuff breaks, OK? Everything can break. All the QA tests do is reduce the odds of a problem with the quality of the metal. I think you're a little lost in the conversation, buddy, and I suggest maybe you re-read some of this thread before you type another word. All I said initially was that MPI isn't worth much without HPTing first. I still stand by that statement. I never said that MPI by itself was useful. The KAC fanboys them chimed in with how KAC MPI's without HPTing, so that's the way to go, etc. That's how this KAC pissing match all started. Bro, I've re-read this entire thread a couple times and I don't think it is so much KAC fanboys as it is you just going off the deep end trying to justify calling KAC a boutique company, when clearly they are not. Notice when you said Larue was boutique no one seemed to argue. But a company that produces suppressors, sights, rails, VFGs, muzzle devices, 7.62 AR platform rifles and several other NSN items for the entire US military, and offers a military line of their 5.56 rifles (which would suggest some .mil, LEO either foreign or domestic must buy or use them) is hardly boutique. Especially when they have popular offerings on the commercial side and are somewhat available at all times. If you want to say they are boutique because of proprietary parts and don't have a 5.56 rifle in known widespread use in the US mil then I will use your criteria to say Noveske, LMT, and others are boutique as well. As far as the original thread topic, I agree OP that all parts whether brand A or Z, MPI tested or not can and will fail. Those tests and a known company that consistently puts out premium products will usually provide assurance the product will last, but will not guarantee it. |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 1:07:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
MPI by itself is worthless without HPT. KAC and Larue don't agree with you... ...The rest of the serious use AR world does.... So what are your "serious use AR world" credentials? |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 1:09:54 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Quoted:
I don't need to argue with an "internet expert" on whether or not a company who produces dozens of products (M110, M110K, dozens of rails/mounts/sights/etc) in widespread .mil use is a "botique" or not. I certainly don't need a milspec chaser to tell me that without the magical MPI stamped bolt, a rifle will suddenly fail (a logic in which the pic in the OP obviously disagrees with). And I most definitely don't need to argue with an individual who doesn't understand I couldn't care less about the entire situation...broken bolt and all. I posted the picture to make a point that the "Tier 1" firearms/parts coveted so deeply by some can still break (assuming they actually get used), and in jest to those in the "I'm going to buy a new barrel because mine isn't parked under the front sight base" crowd. Off to shoot my botique guns... http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/cms81586/Firearms%20and%20Shooting/IMAG0571-1_zpsb93f47d3.jpg This always seems to happen with KAC fanboys. They have almost a religious attachment and devotion to their company. Are those rifles you listed 5.56 rifles? Does providing accessories and parts to the military's 5.56 rifles automatically vet every other non contract novelty product / firearm you have? Keep in mind there are a LOT of companies that supply firearms and accessories to the military, so be careful with how you answer that. This again goes back to fanboyism and elitism. Is a DPMS rifle or BCG likely to fail? Yet, why do many people, such as yourself, insist on purchasing what the forum collectively considers "tier 1" rifles? You have proven the adage of what happens when one opens his mouth. Read more, post less. This topic has dies its natural death. MPI'd stuff breaks, OK? Everything can break. All the QA tests do is reduce the odds of a problem with the quality of the metal. I think you're a little lost in the conversation, buddy, and I suggest maybe you re-read some of this thread before you type another word. All I said initially was that MPI isn't worth much without HPTing first. I still stand by that statement. I never said that MPI by itself was useful. The KAC fanboys them chimed in with how KAC MPI's without HPTing, so that's the way to go, etc. That's how this KAC pissing match all started. Bro, I've re-read this entire thread a couple times and I don't think it is so much KAC fanboys as it is you just going off the deep end trying to justify calling KAC a boutique company, when clearly they are not. Notice when you said Larue was boutique no one seemed to argue. But a company that produces suppressors, sights, rails, VFGs, muzzle devices, 7.62 AR platform rifles and several other NSN items for the entire US military, and offers a military line of their 5.56 rifles (which would suggest some .mil, LEO either foreign or domestic must buy or use them) is hardly boutique. Especially when they have popular offerings on the commercial side and are somewhat available at all times. If you want to say they are boutique because of proprietary parts and don't have a 5.56 rifle in known widespread use in the US mil then I will use your criteria to say Noveske, LMT, and others are boutique as well. As far as the original thread topic, I agree OP that all parts whether brand A or Z, MPI tested or not can and will fail. Those tests and a known company that consistently puts out premium products will usually provide assurance the product will last, but will not guarantee it. Yup...apparently that chaps some peoples asses though... 
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Posted: 6/17/2014 4:48:01 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
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Quoted:
MPI by itself is worthless without HPT. KAC and Larue don't agree with you... That's great. The rest of the serious use AR world does. I could care less what boutique brands do / think. Wow, that is really the stupidest thing I have ever read on this forum. |
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Posted: 6/17/2014 5:21:51 PM EDT
[#49]
Here's another pic. The front half of the bolt remained locked on an empty case...rear half stayed in the carrier held in my the cam pin. The firing pin was protruding from the carrier and rode over the rounds in the magazine. The remaining section of bolt still in the carrier had picked up the next round in the magazine and rammed it into the back of the front portion of the bolt that was still locked in the chamber...causing a spectacular bullet setback.
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Posted: 6/17/2014 6:39:11 PM EDT
[#50]
I wonder how many of the lesser known quantities are actually doing the HPT/MPI that they claim the bolt went through.
Considering no one shows documentation (besides Spikes), it could be a load of shit all the way from the material type to the testing. I'm in the boat that when you have your quality control down like LaRue or KAC, it becomes an unnecessary test. Batch testing might tell if you have a fault in your lot of material or heat treat. At least enough to make you feel good
The chart is what did this in. All the people whining about this, parkerizing under the FSB, having to turn the front sight an extra spin or two, etc. All the little companies couldn't get started without it and many of the big sellers still don't give a hoot about it (Bushy, DPMS). |
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