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Posted: 1/26/2014 2:35:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 2:44:57 PM EDT
yeah--the aral sea is one of the biggest cautionary tales in water resources.  it's a perfect example of engineering and economics-driven decision making regarding the environment.



amusingly, it was also a perfect example of soviet ideological hypocrisy.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 2:48:37 PM EDT
No Sea for YOU!.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 2:59:17 PM EDT

That's interesting since one reason the Caspian Sea sturgeon did so well was because the Soviets had an agreement with Iran to strictly manage the fishing.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:00:52 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By C-4:




That's interesting since one reason the Caspian Sea sturgeon did so well was because the Soviets had an agreement with Iran to strictly manage the fishing.
View Quote




 
i was unaware of that--thanks for posting.




off to google...
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:03:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By sirensong:
yeah--the aral sea is one of the biggest cautionary tales in water resources.  it's a perfect example of engineering and economics-driven decision making regarding the environment.

amusingly, it was also a perfect example of soviet ideological hypocrisy.
View Quote


The Soviets consistently raped areas in the name of development that would feed the center and provide them local political control.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:04:44 PM EDT
But the UN said we can only save the environment if we live under communism.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:05:04 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
The Soviets consistently raped areas in the name of development that would feed the center and provide them local political control.
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Originally Posted By Screechjet1:



Originally Posted By sirensong:

yeah--the aral sea is one of the biggest cautionary tales in water resources.  it's a perfect example of engineering and economics-driven decision making regarding the environment.



amusingly, it was also a perfect example of soviet ideological hypocrisy.





The Soviets consistently raped areas in the name of development that would feed the center and provide them local political control.




 
yep--despite completely basing their rhetoric on a marxist analysis that included a scathing critique of this very behavior.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:06:08 PM EDT
Wow.. That global warming is out of control,
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:06:34 PM EDT
Overpopulation strikes again.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:09:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ti22_4788:
Overpopulation strikes again.
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Hardly
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:09:59 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By raven:


But the UN said we can only save the environment if we live under communism.
View Quote


Not Soviet Communism, EuroAmerican Communism.



It'd be different this time.
 
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:11:56 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By raven:


But the UN said we can only save the environment if we live under communism.
View Quote




 
negative.  this is an example of why arfcom's usage of 'communism' as an umbrella term for any kind of regulation causes so many problems.




the core of UN environmental thought is based on hardin's "mutual coercion, mutually agreed-upon" from the tragedy of the commons essay.  this embraces both regulatory and market approaches.  you may not like the idea, but cap-and-trade is a purely capitalist intervention.




remember, even adam smith maintained the view that the invisible hand does not inevitably result in optimal outcomes.  he viewed market behavior and morality as two poles that needed to be balanced.  hardin simply gave a mathematical proof for the failure of the invisible hand in one particular set of circumstances.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:12:11 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By lichter50:





Hardly
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Originally Posted By lichter50:



Originally Posted By ti22_4788:

Overpopulation strikes again.


Hardly




 
not even remotely.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:14:44 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By sirensong:

  i was unaware of that--thanks for posting.

off to google...
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Originally Posted By sirensong:
Originally Posted By C-4:

That's interesting since one reason the Caspian Sea sturgeon did so well was because the Soviets had an agreement with Iran to strictly manage the fishing.

  i was unaware of that--thanks for posting.

off to google...


I first read about it here



I love everything fish-related:  looking at them, raising them, eating them, reading about them, etc.

I keep an aquaponics system during the summer and have a thread in the Outdoors sub-forum.

I've thought about trying to raise White Sturgeon but they are slow-growing and have some specific space and diet requirements.  I feel badly when sturgeon habitat is lost such as in the Aral Sea.

I've instead focused mainly on catfish, including Brown Bullhead catfish and, hopefully this spring, Channel catfish.  These are some small Channel catfish that I'll put outside in the spring:




Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:15:29 PM EDT
In Soviet Union, Vodka is for Drinking and Water is for Fighting over.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:17:01 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Screechjet1:


The Soviets consistently raped areas in the name of development that would feed the center and provide them local political control.
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Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
Originally Posted By sirensong:
yeah--the aral sea is one of the biggest cautionary tales in water resources.  it's a perfect example of engineering and economics-driven decision making regarding the environment.

amusingly, it was also a perfect example of soviet ideological hypocrisy.


The Soviets consistently raped areas in the name of development that would feed the center and provide them local political control.


They were more careful with the sturgeon since the caviar produced was a great source of Western dollars.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:18:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2014 3:20:19 PM EDT by TUMOR]
When Soviet officials decided to divert its rivers, turning Kazakhstan’s western deserts into fragile cotton farms, the Aral Sea was the world’s fourth-largest lake, covering an area the size of Ireland. Now it’s less than a tenth of that size. Left behind are 15,000 square miles of salty, toxin-laden lake bed. Sandstorms toss 150,000 tons of it into the region’s air every year, and are linked to intensified regional climate extremes and increased rates of cancer and lung disease.
View Quote


Go ahead......change Mother Nature!
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:23:00 PM EDT
A puddle inn my yard dried up once too.  It was so sad.


Where did that water go?  


Gone forever?
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:31:08 PM EDT
so did the sea naturally exist and they just diverted the rivers and the shit evaporated?








Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:38:28 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By Shott8283:


so did the sea naturally exist and they just diverted the rivers and the shit evaporated?


View Quote










 
pretty much--syr darya and amu darya were extensively exploited for cotton production and (IIRC) hydropower.




the aral sea used to be the largest body of brackish water in the world.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:39:05 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Shott8283:
so did the sea naturally exist and they just diverted the rivers and the shit evaporated?



View Quote


The government diverted the feeder rivers for irrigation purposes.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:40:50 PM EDT
So they had their own Owens Lake fiasco.
Maybe they got the idea from the fucked up Angelenos.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:41:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Shott8283:
so did the sea naturally exist and they just diverted the rivers and the shit evaporated?



View Quote


The lake was fed from rivers that flowed from the Mountains of Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan.  The southern river, the Amu Darya, was most significantly affected by large scale irrigation projects, to the point that it now no longer reaches the lake, it just dries up in the desert.

The primarily local subsistence fishing industry of the Aral "sea" was of little importance to the Soviets, the real power in influence has always been the cities of eastern Uzbekistan, and those irrigation projects made the eastern part of the country a virtual breadbasket and also a major source of cotton (the latter projects started well before the Soviets, to address supplies that dried up from the American south due to blockades put in part during the late unpleasantness).
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:41:47 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By patchouli:
A puddle inn my yard dried up once too.  It was so sad.


Where did that water go?  


Gone forever?
View Quote


Yup. Totally the same thing.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:42:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2014 3:44:10 PM EDT by ArmyInfantryVet]
Same thing is happening to the Colorado river and lake meade.

 
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:48:24 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By sirensong:




  pretty much--syr darya and amu darya were extensively exploited for cotton production and (IIRC) hydropower.

the aral sea used to be the largest body of brackish water in the world.
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Originally Posted By sirensong:
Originally Posted By Shott8283:
so did the sea naturally exist and they just diverted the rivers and the shit evaporated?




  pretty much--syr darya and amu darya were extensively exploited for cotton production and (IIRC) hydropower.

the aral sea used to be the largest body of brackish water in the world.



The Soviets had some hydropower projects in Tajikistan, but nothing on the scale of what is in the works now.  The real problem is the unsustainable irrigation, but you'll never get the Uzbeks to accept that.

Interestingly, Kazakhstan has made great strides in restoring the northern lake, now dammed off from the main body.  They are quite proud of this, and coffee table books with glossy photos and descriptions in english are in damned near every hotel room, like how the Gideons place bibles.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:50:33 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By patchouli:


A puddle inn my yard dried up once too.  It was so sad.





Where did that water go?  





Gone forever?
View Quote




 
it went into a non-useful segment of the water cycle.




fortunately for all of us, the hydrogeology of your yard probably did not support a large-scale aquatic ecosystem, and the drying did not create dust storms that are visible from space.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:51:00 PM EDT
Salton Sea anyone?
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:52:04 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
The Soviets had some hydropower projects in Tajikistan, but nothing on the scale of what is in the works now.  The real problem is the unsustainable irrigation, but you'll never get the Uzbeks to accept that.



Interestingly, Kazakhstan has made great strides in restoring the northern lake, now dammed off from the main body.  They are quite proud of this, and coffee table books with glossy photos and descriptions in english are in damned near every hotel room, like how the Gideons place bibles.
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:



Originally Posted By sirensong:


...






The Soviets had some hydropower projects in Tajikistan, but nothing on the scale of what is in the works now.  The real problem is the unsustainable irrigation, but you'll never get the Uzbeks to accept that.



Interestingly, Kazakhstan has made great strides in restoring the northern lake, now dammed off from the main body.  They are quite proud of this, and coffee table books with glossy photos and descriptions in english are in damned near every hotel room, like how the Gideons place bibles.




 
was hoping for your input--you know a ton more about the region than i do.  have read that water levels are rebounding, but i was unaware that the lake had been sectioned.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:52:44 PM EDT
Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey.  Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:54:33 PM EDT
Is this where the USSR had the island where they did all the bio/chem weapon research?
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:56:54 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:


Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey.  Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot.
View Quote




 
i know you know this, but that kind of depletion is almost inevitable in a free market.  the only way to prevent it is through regulation of the market, a la hunting/fishing licenses and seasons, harvest limits, and so on.




IOW, what most arfcommers refer to as "communism".  
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:58:02 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:


Is this where the USSR had the island where they did all the bio/chem weapon research?
View Quote




 
yes.  the two are not related though, except insofar as the labs were on an island in the middle of the lake, which was the primary security mechanism.




due to reduced water levels, you can now walk to the labs.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 3:59:47 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By sirensong:

  was hoping for your input--you know a ton more about the region than i do.  have read that water levels are rebounding, but i was unaware that the lake had been sectioned.
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Originally Posted By sirensong:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Originally Posted By sirensong:
...



The Soviets had some hydropower projects in Tajikistan, but nothing on the scale of what is in the works now.  The real problem is the unsustainable irrigation, but you'll never get the Uzbeks to accept that.

Interestingly, Kazakhstan has made great strides in restoring the northern lake, now dammed off from the main body.  They are quite proud of this, and coffee table books with glossy photos and descriptions in english are in damned near every hotel room, like how the Gideons place bibles.

  was hoping for your input--you know a ton more about the region than i do.  have read that water levels are rebounding, but i was unaware that the lake had been sectioned.


I'm probably one of the few arfcommers who has farted about in both countries.  Never made it out to the Aral Sea[bed] though.  It is not an easy trip, and not one to be taken lightly.  A vehicle breakdown or running out of gas a very real possibility, as a gas station that had gas last week, is not guaranteed to have it the next, so stock up) has happened to people and Satellite phones are your only means of communication.  Anyway, it's not an adventure I was willing to set out with while my wife is in tow (the Soviet trains to Bukhara was more than enough adventure for her).

I did meet some European adventurer hippie types that had driven all the way there.  Interesting bunch of guys and gals and they had a Mad Max vehicle that would have put many of the SHTF vehicles here to shame.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:00:12 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By TUMOR:


Go ahead......change Mother Nature!
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Originally Posted By TUMOR:
When Soviet officials decided to divert its rivers, turning Kazakhstan’s western deserts into fragile cotton farms, the Aral Sea was the world’s fourth-largest lake, covering an area the size of Ireland. Now it’s less than a tenth of that size. Left behind are 15,000 square miles of salty, toxin-laden lake bed. Sandstorms toss 150,000 tons of it into the region’s air every year, and are linked to intensified regional climate extremes and increased rates of cancer and lung disease.


Go ahead......change Mother Nature!

Kind of reminds me of the Salton Sea.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:00:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu:
Is this where the USSR had the island where they did all the bio/chem weapon research?
View Quote



Yes.  That has been a massive cleanup effort.  It's no longer an island, though.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:01:09 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
Same thing is happening to the Colorado river and lake meade.  
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Lake Meade isn't a natural lake.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:03:19 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey.  Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot.
View Quote


Equivocation about environmental damage between collectivism and capitalism is silly, especially since the media would have us believe that the free market is the most ecologically disastrous force on the planet.  Part of the reason the ridiculous double-standard is allowed to persist is that what democracies consider "environmental catastrophes" (Prince William Sound oil spill, 3 Mile Island) are barely considered an "incident" in Soviet states.  If anything, there's more concern about damaged hardware.


"Oh yes, komrade.  Is several submarine reactors rotting off coast of Novaya Zemlya, but do not have worries.  Are all underwater where radiation cannot harm!"
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:03:42 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By sirensong:





 
i know you know this, but that kind of depletion is almost inevitable in a free market.  the only way to prevent it is through regulation of the market, a la hunting/fishing licenses and seasons, harvest limits, and so on.
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Originally Posted By sirensong:



Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:

Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey.  Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot.


 
i know you know this, but that kind of depletion is almost inevitable in a free market.  the only way to prevent it is through regulation of the market, a la hunting/fishing licenses and seasons, harvest limits, and so on.




IOW, what most arfcommers refer to as "communism".  
I see maybe not the use it and abuse it, but the "who cares" mindset a lot on this site.



If one promotes conservationism here, one gets reply's of "treehugger" or "it just a rock." etc etc.



There is nothing wrong with using the resources available to us. I just say we should use them smartly.



 
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:05:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Ragin_Cajun:


Equivocation about environmental damage between collectivism and capitalism is silly, especially since the media would have us believe that the free market is the most ecologically disastrous force on the planet.  Part of the reason the ridiculous double-standard is allowed to persist is that what democracies consider "environmental catastrophes" (Prince William Sound oil spill, 3 Mile Island) are barely considered an "incident" in Soviet states.  If anything, there's more concern about damaged hardware.


"Oh yes, komrade.  Is several submarine reactors rotting off coast of Novaya Zemlya, but do not have worries.  Are all underwater where radiation cannot harm!"
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Originally Posted By Ragin_Cajun:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey.  Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot.


Equivocation about environmental damage between collectivism and capitalism is silly, especially since the media would have us believe that the free market is the most ecologically disastrous force on the planet.  Part of the reason the ridiculous double-standard is allowed to persist is that what democracies consider "environmental catastrophes" (Prince William Sound oil spill, 3 Mile Island) are barely considered an "incident" in Soviet states.  If anything, there's more concern about damaged hardware.


"Oh yes, komrade.  Is several submarine reactors rotting off coast of Novaya Zemlya, but do not have worries.  Are all underwater where radiation cannot harm!"


There are lakes of oil spilled in Russia that are probably larger than what is left of the Aral Sea.  That country is an environmental disaster.  I've run into a few hardcore Russian environmentalist types that are constantly trying to "raise awareness" of the problems, but nobody really gives a shit.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:08:06 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By TylerF:






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Originally Posted By TylerF:



Originally Posted By sirensong:


Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:

Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey.  Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot.


 
i know you know this, but that kind of depletion is almost inevitable in a free market.  the only way to prevent it is through regulation of the market, a la hunting/fishing licenses and seasons, harvest limits, and so on.




IOW, what most arfcommers refer to as "communism".  
I see maybe not the use it and abuse it, but the "who cares" mindset a lot on this site.



If one promotes conservationism here, one gets reply's of "treehugger" or "it just a rock." etc etc.



There is nothing wrong with using the resources available to us. I just say we should use them smartly.

 




 
i agree.  arfcom's reasoning WRT the environment is virtually identical to obama's approach to the deficit--kick the can down the road.




fuck the future.  those assholes--our kids--will just have to deal with it.




but for god's sake, don't ask us to change our behavior!
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:10:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By America-first:


The government diverted the feeder rivers for irrigation purposes.
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Originally Posted By America-first:
Originally Posted By Shott8283:
so did the sea naturally exist and they just diverted the rivers and the shit evaporated?





The government diverted the feeder rivers for irrigation purposes.


They chose the WORST possible crop (cotton) for the irrigation as well...
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:12:14 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By Ragin_Cajun:
especially since the media would have us believe that the free market is the most ecologically disastrous force on the planet.
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Originally Posted By Ragin_Cajun:



Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:

...




especially since the media would have us believe that the free market is the most ecologically disastrous force on the planet.




 
this is a real issue, and surprise, surprise...is due to media ignorance.




the real problem with respect to environmental degradation is not communism or capitalism, but modernity.  that is, the idea that we can and should completely dominate nature, that science is the only meaningful language with respect to nature, and that economics is an adequate substitute for ethics.




it is worth noting that the stated position of both the US and the USSR during the high modern era was: "any drop of river water that escapes to the sea is wasted."
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:26:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By sirensong:

  i know you know this, but that kind of depletion is almost inevitable in a free market.  the only way to prevent it is through regulation of the market, a la hunting/fishing licenses and seasons, harvest limits, and so on.

IOW, what most arfcommers refer to as "communism".
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Originally Posted By sirensong:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
Anyone who thinks resource depletion of the sort cannot happen in a free market needs to read up on the Canning industry in Monterey.  Externalities and the recognition of them is not a Communist plot.

  i know you know this, but that kind of depletion is almost inevitable in a free market.  the only way to prevent it is through regulation of the market, a la hunting/fishing licenses and seasons, harvest limits, and so on.

IOW, what most arfcommers refer to as "communism".


I think that the small minority mouth breathers of hunters/fisherman definitely do that.  But the rest recognize that the excise taxes on fishing gear, guns, ammo, etc as well as license fees all go to habitat restoration, re-introduction programs, law enforcement, etc.  

I grew up on the Lake St. Francis portion of the St. Lawrence River in Canada and have witnessed the complete destruction of the freshwater fishery mainly through overfishing.  The government did nothing to stop it.  Even the fishing fees started in 1988 go into the general fund.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:45:56 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By sporter:
Salton Sea anyone?
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Um, the Salton Sea exists because man made irrigation canals failed after heavy snow and rainfalls in the early 1900s.  I
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 4:51:38 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By The_Macallan:

Not Soviet Communism, EuroAmerican Communism.

It'd be different this time.  
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Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By raven:
But the UN said we can only save the environment if we live under communism.

Not Soviet Communism, EuroAmerican Communism.

It'd be different this time.  


Yep, Soviets are amateurs. We be da masters at fucking things up in our quest for the socialist utopia.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 5:02:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By H46Driver:


Um, the Salton Sea exists because man made irrigation canals failed after heavy snow and rainfalls in the early 1900s.  I
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Originally Posted By H46Driver:
Originally Posted By sporter:
Salton Sea anyone?


Um, the Salton Sea exists because man made irrigation canals failed after heavy snow and rainfalls in the early 1900s.  I

The drying is what reminded me of the Salton not the creation.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 5:10:25 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By H46Driver:


Um, the Salton Sea exists because man made irrigation canals failed after heavy snow and rainfalls in the early 1900s.  I
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Originally Posted By H46Driver:
Originally Posted By sporter:
Salton Sea anyone?


Um, the Salton Sea exists because man made irrigation canals failed after heavy snow and rainfalls in the early 1900s.  I



Yep. Not a natural lake.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 5:14:53 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By redoubt:
Yep. Not a natural lake.
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Originally Posted By redoubt:



Originally Posted By H46Driver:


Originally Posted By sporter:

Salton Sea anyone?




Um, the Salton Sea exists because man made irrigation canals failed after heavy snow and rainfalls in the early 1900s.  I






Yep. Not a natural lake.




 






that flooding ran off into a dry lake bed.




IOW, there has been a periodic lake there for a really, really long time.
Link Posted: 1/26/2014 5:16:35 PM EDT

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Originally Posted By ti22_4788:


Overpopulation strikes again.
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wut?

 
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