Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/21/2002 7:40:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2002 7:54:51 AM EST by drjarhead]
Decided to turn a flame battle over this into something constructive, hopefully. I think it would be useful for us to discuss this here so that we might all learn. Especially, the advice of combat vets who have faced the use of grenades, etc would be appreciated. Also, I think it would be useful to discuss the use of mines, artillery, rockets, mortars, air support and ways to defeat or evade them. Those could be future topics. I am a Marine Corps vet but have never seen combat. I don't believe, personally, that there is EVER a reason to throw yourself on a grenade. I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't desire or expect it from others around me. I don't think it merits a citation of any kind and wish they wouldn't encourage it by giving citations for it. However, the intent of this post/poll is learn about grenade use and defence in combat situations.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 8:01:26 AM EST
Would throwing your body on top of a grenade even save any others ? I know on hollywood grenades it does, but on real ones ?
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 8:09:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan: Would throwing your body on top of a grenade even save any others ? I know on hollywood grenades it does, but on real ones ?
View Quote
Yes, modern antipersonnel grenades are designed to injure/maim and don't usually kill except at close range. However, with this in mind, it is arguable as to whether you would really "save" anyone. Further the men around you hopefully are well trained and will react to either the grenade, your evasive movement or the cry of, "GRENADE".
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 9:23:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2002 9:43:32 AM EST by 9divdoc]
Originally Posted By drjarhead: Decided to turn a flame battle over this into something constructive, hopefully. I think it would be useful for us to discuss this here so that we might all learn. Especially, the advice of combat vets who have faced the use of grenades, etc would be appreciated. Also, I think it would be useful to discuss the use of mines, artillery, rockets, mortars, air support and ways to defeat or evade them. Those could be future topics. I am a Marine Corps vet but have never seen combat. [i]I don't believe, personally, that there is EVER a reason to throw yourself on a grenade[/i]. I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't desire or expect it from others around me. I don't think it merits a citation of any kind[/i] and wish they wouldn't encourage it by giving citations for it. However, the intent of this post/poll is learn about grenade use and defence in combat situations.
View Quote
Its not something anyone can plan for...its called character...and either you have it at the "moment of truth" or you do not....My Junior High was named after Willard Purdy who won the MOH and the Gold Star for his mother...by doing precisely what you have dissed doc... When you are in a steep sided trench or fox hole or bunker and the grenade comes in through the doorway or rpg hole...and bouces around a few times eating up precious seconds on the fuse...you pick it up and try to throw it and it detonates..you will now have an airburst...doing much more damage than the explosive cone may have done...guess you could try to trample everyone and try to be the one who gets out first...maybe they should give out medals to those who are the fastest and by your argument the smartest & bravest?...how "smart" is it to charge a machine gun position...or run a bangalore relay....or patrol in a mined area...or run into a mined area to try to save a comrade who is bleeding to death before the field is cleared?... Bravery in combat is often defined as "beyond the call of duty and with no regard to your own life or personal safety"... so I guess those poor dumb bastards who threw themselves on grenades to save their comrades should have their medals revoked?...how dumb were the fireman and police officers at the WTC having gotten the word the place was gonna collapse and rushed back in anyway?...Or the chief of security who continued to direct rescues who could have easily been one of the "smart ones" (if I buy your line of thinking) and ran out and saved himself... You think giving out medals increases the likelihood of people giving up their lives to save others?...you dont know shit about human nature then....who the hell are you ..doogie fuckin houser?....sheesh.. Where do you practice medicine?...glad you werent a navy corpsman or combat medic...with any of my guys... I didnt bother to answer this stupid survey because anyone who thinks they know what they will do in combat when the time arises to do anything above and beyond.. is a fool.....and knows nothing...I've seen big tough braggards huddle in fear and little quiet guys suddenly grow a giant pair...In the two platoons I served with in Vietnam there were three silver stars and a MOH given out..and lots of traumatic amputations and CMHs Ive seens lots of guys just get up an do it..no thought..no preparations..they just got up and went and did it...its a heart thing..and either you got it or you dont...and combat and trauma..and disaster reveals.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 10:36:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 10:36:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By 9divdoc: Its not something anyone can plan for...its called character...and either you have it at the "moment of truth" or you do not....My Junior High was named after Willard Purdy who won the MOH and the Gold Star for his mother...by doing precisely what you have dissed doc... When you are in a steep sided trench or fox hole or bunker and the grenade comes in through the doorway or rpg hole...and bouces around a few times eating up precious seconds on the fuse...you pick it up and try to throw it and it detonates..you will now have an airburst...doing much more damage than the explosive cone may have done...guess you could try to trample everyone and try to be the one who gets out first...maybe they should give out medals to those who are the fastest and by your argument the smartest & bravest?...how "smart" is it to charge a machine gun position...or run a bangalore relay....or patrol in a mined area...or run into a mined area to try to save a comrade who is bleeding to death before the field is cleared?... Bravery in combat is often defined as "beyond the call of duty and with no regard to your own life or personal safety"... so I guess those poor dumb bastards who threw themselves on grenades to save their comrades should have their medals revoked?...how dumb were the fireman and police officers at the WTC having gotten the word the place was gonna collapse and rushed back in anyway?...Or the chief of security who continued to direct rescues who could have easily been one of the "smart ones" (if I buy your line of thinking) and ran out and saved himself... You think giving out medals increases the likelihood of people giving up their lives to save others?...you dont know shit about human nature then....who the hell are you ..doogie fuckin houser?....sheesh.. Where do you practice medicine?...glad you werent a navy corpsman or combat medic...with any of my guys... I didnt bother to answer this stupid survey because anyone who thinks they know what they will do in combat when the time arises to do anything above and beyond.. is a fool.....and knows nothing...I've seen big tough braggards huddle in fear and little quiet guys suddenly grow a giant pair...In the two platoons I served with in Vietnam there were three silver stars and a MOH given out..and lots of traumatic amputations and CMHs Ive seens lots of guys just get up an do it..no thought..no preparations..they just got up and went and did it...its a heart thing..and either you got it or you dont...and combat and trauma..and disaster reveals.
View Quote
Amen!!!!! Nuf said!
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 10:53:17 AM EST
Actually, I was hoping for something a little more constructive that might prove to be a learning experience for the vast majority of us. "doogie fuckin hauser" Yeah that's a good one. I think that given the flame ridden nature of your post I'll defer any personal info about myself. I don't know if you're a doc or not, 9divdoc. If you are feel free to contact me via IM or email and I'll tell you a little about myself. No, I don't claim to be the bravest guy on Earth. Certainly, I wouldn't undertake the topic at hand. If that makes me less brave than you, well, so be it. I do know what I'm made of. That's enough for now. The goal of this thread is, once again, to learn from the experiences of others if they are willing to discuss their experiences. IT IS NOT an attempt to drag out a flame war. We talk alot about SHTF scenarios, etc, but how many of us would know what to do when faced with a grenade, a mine, air support...I truly welcome the advice of others and I think that this is a great place to discuss these issues. [grenade]
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 10:55:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By eswanson: Isn't this one of those topics that should be in GD instead of GFD?
View Quote
I considered putting it there myself and if the mods want to move it that would be fine. As the initial posts about this began in GFD, I decided to post it here.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 11:21:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By drjarhead: Decided to turn a flame battle over this into something constructive, hopefully. I think it would be useful for us to discuss this here so that we might all learn. Especially, the advice of combat vets who have faced the use of grenades, etc would be appreciated. Also, I think it would be useful to discuss the use of mines, artillery, rockets, mortars, air support and ways to defeat or evade them. Those could be future topics. I am a Marine Corps vet but have never seen combat. I don't believe, personally, that there is EVER a reason to throw yourself on a grenade. I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't desire or expect it from others around me. I don't think it merits a citation of any kind and wish they wouldn't encourage it by giving citations for it. However, the intent of this post/poll is learn about grenade use and defence in combat situations.
View Quote
I'm not real sure you or anyone else really knows what they would do until the circumstance presents itself....
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 11:34:10 AM EST
Grenades are about as powerful as they are going to get. They could be made more lethal, but that would put the average operator within the danger zone. Grenades have a spotty track record at lethality and haven't gotten much more lethal since WWI, though they have become more reliable as far as detonation goes. That being said, the 1-2 second decision loop involved in throwing oneself onto a grenade seems to generally be enough time to either: A) Dive or move the 10 or so meters to get out of "lethal" range (average wounding radius is 15 meters); or B) Kick or throw the cursed thing to a safer distance. I have been banged repeatedly. Bangs are fused at 1.5 seconds. The extra 3 on a frag should give adequate time to react in a way that saves lives without sacrificing your own. I have never been on the wrong end of a fragmentation grenades, so I qualify my remarks. My decision to do that is pure speculation on my part, and in no way detracts from others who have decided to shield their comrades and given their lives.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 12:29:28 PM EST
Originally Posted By liberty86: I'm not real sure you or anyone else really knows what they would do until the circumstance presents itself....
View Quote
I do believe that I know what I would do but, of course, you can't be sure until it happens. That's what this thread is all about. I think it is useful to consider your options and perhaps, how you should act if faced with this situation. "You play how you practice" and all that. If you're in a hole and a grenade lands in it you shouldn't be considering infinite options. There is essentially one--get the fuck out of the hole. Your mere presence in this situation should lead you to have already decided that if there is a grenade in your hole you need to be out of it. If you are moving and a grenade lands you need to move away, diving for cover, preferably with your feet pointed towards the grenade thereby providing the smallest possible area of your body towards the grenade and protecting vital organs. You may elect to knock down others in your evasion. Ideally, while doing this you would communicate to others the presence of said grenade. There would be a very limited number of circumstances where one might pick up and throw the grenade. If it is outside but near your hole simply ducking would be the prudent thing to do. I don't really think that this is a matter of "heart" but more of training as a well trained operator will generally do what is correct without having to consider every option. For instance, a short stop knows to scoop up a ball thrown to him and throw it to first base or elsewhere depending on the circumstances. He doesn't have to consider each move a step at a time. Practice, ie training, has long since led to synaptic connections in the brain that deal with a series of reactions as a response.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 2:19:00 PM EST
Picking it up and throwing it back is not an option???
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 2:28:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2002 2:30:56 PM EST by Gunner1X]
When I was in the service (80 thru 84)- YES (for 3 buddies) For my family - YES Currently for two buddies - YES Small children - YES Strangers - NO! Politicians, Celebrates, Lawyers, ACLU members, etc. - HELL NO!
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 2:44:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Originally Posted By liberty86: I'm not real sure you or anyone else really knows what they would do until the circumstance presents itself....
View Quote
I do believe that I know what I would do but, of course, you can't be sure until it happens. That's what this thread is all about. I think it is useful to consider your options and perhaps, how you should act if faced with this situation. "You play how you practice" and all that. If you're in a hole and a grenade lands in it you shouldn't be considering infinite options. There is essentially one--get the fuck out of the hole. Your mere presence in this situation should lead you to have already decided that if there is a grenade in your hole you need to be out of it. If you are moving and a grenade lands you need to move away, diving for cover, preferably with your feet pointed towards the grenade thereby providing the smallest possible area of your body towards the grenade and protecting vital organs. You may elect to knock down others in your evasion. Ideally, while doing this you would communicate to others the presence of said grenade. There would be a very limited number of circumstances where one might pick up and throw the grenade. If it is outside but near your hole simply ducking would be the prudent thing to do. I don't really think that this is a matter of "heart" but more of training as a well trained operator will generally do what is correct without having to consider every option. For instance, a short stop knows to scoop up a ball thrown to him and throw it to first base or elsewhere depending on the circumstances. He doesn't have to consider each move a step at a time. Practice, ie training, has long since led to synaptic connections in the brain that deal with a series of reactions as a response.
View Quote
While I have never been confronted by your particular choice, (hand grenade), I have been involved in combat operations, (same war as 9divdoc). I can tell you that in high stress life threatining situations I have NOT reacted according to the law of self-preservation. Were those or similar circumstances to arise again, I cannot really say how how I will react, other than to say I have saved, and have tried to save lives in the past. I have never met ANYONE who can predict their behavior in those circumstances, even those who are well trained.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 2:58:39 PM EST
What about throwing someone we didn't like on top of the grenade, like a mime or encyclopedia salesman? I was troubled that this was not on the survey.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:04:15 PM EST
Okay, let's assume for now that no one knows for sure what they will do and that sacrificing yourself is an act of bravery. What do you think you SHOULD do from an objective viewpoint? Maybe what you would tell your son about how to deal with such a situation or how you would train infantrymen getting prepared for combat. I know we have some Korea and Viet Nam vets here. Maybe even some WWII vets. What kind of training and experience have some of you guys had?
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:10:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2002 3:19:16 PM EST by heliflyer]
When I was in the service (80 thru 84)- YES (for 3 buddies) [b]Gunnar 1X said For my family - YES Currently for two buddies - YES Small children - YES Strangers - NO! Politicians, Celebrates, Lawyers, ACLU members, etc. - HELL NO![/b] Korea 12/1950 - 6/1953 Ex-wives - NO Liberals - NO Some rude, crude and totally illiterate Enlisted Man threw a concussion grenade into the Officer Latrine once.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:15:12 PM EST
Originally Posted By drjarhead: Maybe what you would tell your son about how to deal with such a situation or how you would train infantrymen getting prepared for combat.
View Quote
I would tell my son or anyone I was close too, to come home alive at all costs, 'cause chances are, whatever conflict the country is engaged in is not worth their life.
I know we have some Korea and Viet Nam vets here. Maybe even some WWII vets. What kind of training and experience have some of you guys had?
View Quote
No training really prepares anyone for combat. Experience does.....
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:17:32 PM EST
I guess it would have to depend on the situation. If there's other options open, well, I guess I'd prefer not to -- if not, well, hopefully I'll never have to find out. FOTBR
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:25:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2002 3:26:59 PM EST by Zardoz]
Posted by drjarhead:
. I don't think it merits a citation of any kind and wish they wouldn't encourage it by giving citations for it
View Quote
I think you are confusing "encouragement" for "recognition." This is not a flame, but if you don't feel that a completely selfless act like this merits recognition, you got a problem.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:29:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By Zardoz: Posted by drjarhead:
. I don't think it merits a citation of any kind and wish they wouldn't encourage it by giving citations for it
View Quote
I think you are confusing "encouragement" for "recognition." This is not a flame, but if you don't feel that a completely selfless act like this merits recognition, you got a problem.
View Quote
Finally. A civil repsonse to my post.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:42:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By liberty86:
Originally Posted By drjarhead: Maybe what you would tell your son about how to deal with such a situation or how you would train infantrymen getting prepared for combat.
View Quote
I would tell my son or anyone I was close too, to come home alive at all costs, 'cause chances are, whatever conflict the country is engaged in is not worth their life. [red] What I've told my own son [/red]
I know we have some Korea and Viet Nam vets here. Maybe even some WWII vets. What kind of training and experience have some of you guys had?
View Quote
No training really prepares anyone for combat. Experience does..... [red]Exactly why I've asked for Combat Vets to speak up. And not just about the question at hand[/red]
View Quote
My training was from Grunts coming back from Nam. Without exception their advice was the same and they did distinctly discuss this issue.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:52:45 PM EST
There is, at the 1CD museum at Ft Hood, a listing of troopers who won the CMH. One of these guys jumped on a grenade, but first covered it with his steel pot. The grenade went off, but he survived. And so did all of his buddies.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:57:43 PM EST
anyone and I do mean anyone who voted for the "to save a high ranking officer etc." vote on this deserves to F@#$%in Die! who the hell would want to have a Movie House named after themselves to save a OCS/OTC college puke who never really earned his/her rank in the first place!.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:59:20 PM EST
Originally Posted By liberty86: If you're in a hole and a grenade lands in it you shouldn't be considering infinite options. There is essentially one--get the fuck out of the hole.
View Quote
If you are in a proper hole, you should have dug a grenade sump. If the floor of the hole is angled correctly (or you kick the grenade the right way), it will land in the sump and you should come out more or less okay.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 4:11:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By natez:
Originally Posted By liberty86: If you're in a hole and a grenade lands in it you shouldn't be considering infinite options. There is essentially one--get the fuck out of the hole.
View Quote
If you are in a proper hole, you should have dug a grenade sump. If the floor of the hole is angled correctly (or you kick the grenade the right way), it will land in the sump and you should come out more or less okay.
View Quote
A grenade sump is always a good idea but can you count on it? Will it get blocked with dirt, debris, spent casings? It might prevent death more than serious injury even if the grenade rolls into it.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 4:31:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 4:57:48 PM EST
I have no illusions that I know how I would react should I ever be faced with a live grenade at my feet. Chances are, like 99.99% of people, I would jump the other way or try to take some cover. But I am saying this without benefit of being surrounded by a bunch of guys I have shared combat experience with, nor do I have a combat situation around me with all it's particulars.
Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Originally Posted By liberty86: I'm not real sure you or anyone else really knows what they would do until the circumstance presents itself....
View Quote
If you're in a hole and a grenade lands in it you shouldn't be considering infinite options. There is essentially one--get the fuck out of the hole.
View Quote
Except that's pretty much why they tossed the grenade in the hole, either to kill you, or to flush you out so they can shoot your butt. Remember, to get a grenade in your hole, the enemy had to be within about 30-40 meters, probably a heck of a lot less. That's way close enough to shoot you dead as you start to scramble out. Also, be aware that an enemy attacking a prepared defense is usually going to outnumber you significantly. If they did their planning right, by more than 3-1. So the guy who threw the grenade is being covered by another guy or two with rifles or maybe a machinegun. And those guys are going to be looking at the exits of the hole for fleeing people to shoot. A question, if you built a regulation Marine Corps two man fighting position with proper overhead cover, etc. how fast do you think you can scramble out that little opening? You've got maybe 2 seconds to get through and out and you are hampered by an individual weapon, body armor, helmet, LCE and probably a sustainment buttpack. So how quick are you gonna get out that hole? Chances are the grenade will go off while your legs are still hanging out the hole and tear your legs apart. How you are wounded, have no cover and concealment, cannot move quickly, and chances are, your are highlighted in the beaten ground created by your own muzzle blast during the firefight. So whether the grenade frags tore you up enough to threaten your life, you are now a sitting duck to enemy riflemen. That's a foxhole situation. With grenade sumps, if you manage to kick the grenade into the sumps, you may survive, especially if you toss a pack onto the sump after the grenade goes in. Chances are you'll probably take a few frags, but you should live. Out in the open, or in a largish room or bunker, your best option may be to toss something heavy on the thing and get your ass down. BTW, in general the Army teaches you to hide behind your helmet. So you drop FACING the explosion, dig the brim of your helmet into the ground and dig your toes into the ground as well and try to get real small behind that helmet. A frag vest will also help in this orientation. If you dive away with your feet toward the blast, your unarmored legs and feet will take the impact of the blast and fragments, virtually ensuring a mobility limiting wound. That's what helmets and body armor are for.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 5:41:14 PM EST
A grenade inside your hole is just about certain to kill you or mess you up real bad so I guess I'd take my chances getting out--I think I could do that in under 2 seconds easily. Still be shooting and hopefully getting a little cover fire from nearby holes. Further they'll likely be scared shitless as well. Marine training dictated that it would be rare to have time to dig a complete hole. Nor would you likely be there long anyway, we were told. Generally, we were told that we'd be lucky to dig a shallow hole that would conceal us in a prone position, ambush or defend briefly and get the hell out. Was also trained that it was best to roll or crawl, after a brief exchange of fire, into a nearby depression or behind cover and fire again, etc. This way the enemy could not get too good a fix on your position. This was the way I was trained but it has been a few years. It all seemed like good advice at the time. I think Marine training was based on a more mobile philosophy. Of course this was just after Nam so we were trained to fight more guerilla tactics, albeit somewhat more organized. Very interesting, your headfirst technique. I would think that there would be a couple of shortcomings, esp without body armor. You would fall towards the grenade thereby exposing yourself to a greater blast and larger amount of shrapnel. I think that these would adhere to the inverse square law. Falling away, especially with a brief run or dive would put you at least 15-20 feet hopefully and substantially diminish the amount of shrapnel and blast to which you would be exposed. I seem to remember them telling us that that was how the Army "did it" but its been a few years. There are alot of vital structures in the region of the shoulders and neck. I gotta laugh at all the guys in the movies who get shot in the shoulder and walk away like its a scratch. Not so. Some great thoughts and advice. Thanks.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 6:29:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2002 6:29:40 PM EST by Aimless]
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 6:46:18 PM EST
Yeah, that's a sump that Hoplite and iceman talked about. Seems like it might work pretty well in a trench where there is a little room to maneuver. Certainly of some use in a foxhole as well but in anything hastily dug probably not of any reliability. We called 'em squirrel holes IIRC. Maybe you could dig a hole in the middle of it where you are lying and scoop it in as you roll out. Don't know if this would be practical or not.
Top Top