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Posted: 10/20/2004 9:17:22 AM EST
I have become a Michael Savage listener/addict, last night he said a Rabbi told him the ORIGINAL translation of the 10 Commandments does NOT have, "Thou shalt NOT kill", but "Thou shalt NOT MURDER". The difference being implied some people NEED to be KILLED.

I have tried the web GOOGLE thing, can't find much on this subject - anyone with knowledge on this subject matter to add comment?

TAI
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:18:08 AM EST
Who cares
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:18:46 AM EST
a Rabbi told him the ORIGINAL translation of the 10 Commandments does NOT have, "Thou shalt NOT kill", but "Thou shalt NOT MURDER".

I would like to see this proven one way or another ???
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:19:04 AM EST
Google: "Just War Theory"
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:19:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By cyanide:
a Rabbi told him the ORIGINAL translation of the 10 Commandments does NOT have, "Thou shalt NOT kill", but "Thou shalt NOT MURDER".

I would like to see this proven one way or another ???



I agree that's why I am asking.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:19:39 AM EST
Sounds right to me.

There's lots of righteous killing in the Bible.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:22:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 9:26:05 AM EST by Dino]
thats not a big secret, there is some room for dispute but most scholars agree its refers to unlawful killings (the definition of murder)



www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/001102_ThouShaltNotMurder.html
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:24:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 9:28:27 AM EST by fight4yourrights]
The Morally Bankrupt Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism


Wearing a mask of religious wisdom, the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism (the "RAC") takes a position against firearms ownership that is morally despicable. The RAC's official position favoring "gun control" rests on this foundation:

"Jewish tradition emphasizes the sanctity and primary value of human life. The Bible commands us 'Thou shalt not murder.' The Talmud teaches us that 'he who takes one life it is as though he has destroyed the universe and he who saves one life it is as though he has saved the universe.' In an increasingly impersonal and alienating society, the dehumanizing of the human being and the carelessness with which human life is taken stand in direct violation of these affirmations of our tradition."

It's true, of course, that Judaism emphasizes the sanctity and primary value of human life, and the Sixth Commandment does prohibit murder. The RAC does not mention, however, that the Bible and the Talmud both condone and sometimes encourage killing—when the killing is in self-defense or to defend innocents.
If saving one life is the moral equivalent of saving the universe, then using a firearm to stop a killer is morally beautiful. Yet the RAC stands squarely against private ownership of lifesaving firearms.


The RAC Is Anti-Self Defense

The RAC fails to distinguish between using deadly force to take lives wrongfully, and using deadly force to save lives. Saving human life using deadly force is so important to Jewish tradition that the Talmud states: "he who comes to kill you, arise and kill him."

How can Jews, or anyone else, "arise and kill" an armed aggressor, if they don't have deadly weapons such as firearms? When the RAC calls for more laws to disarm potential victims, the RAC is running directly contrary to the Jewish tradition that demands that people use deadly force to stop death-dealing aggressors.
The RAC Ignores How "Gun Control" Made Genocide Possible

Equally bad or worse is the RAC's blindness to the recent history of victim disarmament policies applied around the world. Disarmed by laws and cultural pressures, Jews suffered six million killed in Europe at the hands of the Nazis. Those victims were not alone. In the 20th Century, 170,000,000 non-combatant men, women and children were murdered by their governments. In most cases, those victims had first been disarmed by their own governments who had implemented "gun control" laws that the RAC now cheers.

JPFO challenges the RAC leadership to view our documentary, Innocents Betrayed. We challenge the RAC to see the results of "gun control" in nearly a dozen genocides worldwide, and then explain why it so ardently wants to impose more "gun control" in America. If the RAC is committed to saving innocent human lives, then the RAC should explain why it favors policies that enable genocide.

JPFO challenges the RAC to watch Innocents Betrayed to see how "gun control" operated also to set up Americans for persecution and destruction. After the RAC's leaders see the evidence, we challenge them to explain why they want to restrict decent Americans from having defensive firearms.

Would the RAC Save a Universe?

To paraphrase the Talmudic proverb the RAC quotes: If gun ownership helps someone save a single life, then gun ownership has saved the universe. If gun ownership prevents a genocide, then gun ownership saves ... a million universes.

We challenge the RAC to show why the message of Innocents Betrayed—the message of self-defense—is somehow non-Jewish and wrong. We will supply a tape of Innocents Betrayed to the RAC if its leadership promises to view it and respond to our challenges above.

The Liberty Crew


Information source

Innocents Betrayed: documentary film showing link between civilian disarmament policies and slavery, persecution and genocide; includes a segment on the American Experience. www.jpfo.org/ib.htm

Article references

Religious Action Center's policy on "gun control": http://uahc.org/reform/rac/issues/issuesip2.html

Bible: Exodus 20:13, Exodus 22:1, Psalm 144:1, Proverbs 25:26, Ezekiel 33:6

Talmud: Tractate Sanhedrin 72a, Tractate Berachos 58a, 62b; Tractate Gittin, 55b, 56a

Twentieth Century genocides: Zelman & Stevens, Death by "Gun Control": The Human Cost of Victim Disarmament (2001), chap. 6— 14. www.jpfo.org/deathgc.htm

Jewish & Christian religious views supporting self-defense: Death by "Gun Control", chap. 17-19; see also "Jews and Gun Control" (1997) www.jpfo.org/fear.htm

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:27:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lion_Dog:
I have become a Michael Savage listener/addict, last night he said a Rabbi told him the ORIGINAL translation of the 10 Commandments does NOT have, "Thou shalt NOT kill", but "Thou shalt NOT MURDER". The difference being implied some people NEED to be KILLED.

I have tried the web GOOGLE thing, can't find much on this subject - anyone with knowledge on this subject matter to add comment?

TAI



He's right.

Makes ya kind of wonder about it being "gods word" and not vunerable to misinterpitations doesn't it?

Besides, people in the bible were killin each other all of the time. They were a blood thirsty lot.



Zen

"This is my rifle, there are many like it, but this one is mine"
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:30:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 9:30:43 AM EST by Dolomite]
If God didn't want us to kill each other he wouldn't of created cars, booze, smokes, guns, and cock-tease bitches that are always hanging out at the bars late at night (when you've got to get up before 6 to make it in to work). I'm sure it says that somewhere in the bible.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:31:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By ZEN:

Originally Posted By Lion_Dog:
I have become a Michael Savage listener/addict, last night he said a Rabbi told him the ORIGINAL translation of the 10 Commandments does NOT have, "Thou shalt NOT kill", but "Thou shalt NOT MURDER". The difference being implied some people NEED to be KILLED.

I have tried the web GOOGLE thing, can't find much on this subject - anyone with knowledge on this subject matter to add comment?

TAI



He's right.

Makes ya kind of wonder about it being "gods word" and not vunerable to misinterpitations doesn't it?

Besides, people in the bible were killin each other all of the time. They were a blood thirsty lot.



Zen

"This is my rifle, there are many like it, but this one is mine"



I think that blood thirsty is quite the generalization.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:33:33 AM EST
IIRC the original hebrew of the 10 commandments is "Lo Tersach", which means don't murder

It could have been phrased as "Lo Teharog", which means don't kill
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:34:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lion_Dog:
the ORIGINAL translation of the 10 Commandments does NOT have, "Thou shalt NOT kill", but "Thou shalt NOT MURDER".




This is correct as far as my limited study of the Bible goes.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:39:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 9:42:26 AM EST by cyanide]
Where's old painless when you need him ???


I will say this after a shooting I was in --- I went to confession and the Priest said it did not need confession as it had been done to prevent the subject from killing others ???


Hey, I wasn't going to argue with my priest.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:27:55 AM EST
A reading of Mosaic Law shows considerable consistency in the following.

1. The killing of the innocent is punishable by death. So is premeditated murder, assaulting your parents, kidnapping, homosexuality, and beastiality.

2. If someone breaks into your home at night and you kill them, then you are not guilty of murder. However, if you capture them or hunt them down and later kill them, you are guilty of murder.

3. The punishment is to fit the crime.

4. If a man accidentally injures a pregnant woman while fighting with that woman's husband, that man shall pay a price determined by the father of the child.

5. Self defense or the defense of the innocent is justification for killing if the killer has not committed an act that caused the violence.

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 10:44:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 10:45:20 AM EST by danno-in-michigan]
Look it up yourself. Go to the online study bible: online study bible

Then look up Exo 20:13 and Deut 5:17. It will give you the translation (Thou shalt not murder) as well as the original word used and how that word has been used at other places in the bible.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:35:55 AM EST
It is the accepted understanding now that it refers to murder.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:57:30 AM EST
That is correct.

Murder = illegal killing

killing = can sometimes be justified, and thus not illegal.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 12:01:54 PM EST
Let's go back -- way back, to the days of Noah -- long before the giving of the Law, and long before Abraham.

Flood has taken place and Noah and his family are leaving the ark.

Noah builds an alter and offers a burnt sacrifice unto G-D. G-D is well pleased and gives a promise and instructions to Noah

In Genesis chapter 9, verse 6 we read " Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed".

So . . . if you "murder" your life must be sacrificed for your sin.

Read Genesis chapters eight and nine -- think you'll be surprised.


Link Posted: 10/20/2004 12:07:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lion_Dog: The difference being implied some people NEED to be KILLED.hr



this just points out that there have been assholes around forever ...
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 12:18:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dolomite:
If God didn't want us to kill each other he wouldn't of created cars, booze, smokes, guns, and cock-tease bitches that are always hanging out at the bars late at night (when you've got to get up before 6 to make it in to work). I'm sure it says that somewhere in the bible.






Link Posted: 10/20/2004 2:14:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By icecoldsteel:

Originally Posted By Lion_Dog: The difference being implied some people NEED to be KILLED.




this just points out that there have been assholes around forever ...



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