User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 10:21:10 AM EDT
So, there has been alot posted here lately about how if God exists were is the proof. How about a huge plane crash where the plane actually splits in half on landing, skids into a gully and erupts into a huge fire with over 300 people on board and all walk away. Now that's a miracle by God's own hand, proof given, now let's start the conversions.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 10:22:58 AM EDT
[#1]
No way man, that's just coincidence. They were French but had the luck o' the Irish that day...
/totally don't mean it... |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 10:25:19 AM EDT
[#2]
yeah and everyone died on TWA 800 because god was having an off day right?
give me a fucking break. |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 10:27:10 AM EDT
[#3]
one could just as easily say that if god existed he would'nt let it happen in the first place.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 10:44:04 AM EDT
[#4]
Somebody's trying way to hard.....
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 10:51:01 AM EDT
[#5]
Such efforts at "proofs" are irrelevant as any faith community has it's own "proofs" by which it's members find communal and spiritual comfort.
Far more serious introspection by the individual will lead those on a path toward a more meaningful religious avenue. You spoke of "conversions". It was my own religious journey that led me to Judaism. Please, faith means more to members of this forum, and our society in general than such trivial pursuits as you postulated. Jewish Ed |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 10:52:06 AM EDT
[#6]
that's called Satan buddy, remember there is good and evil, there's your fucking break. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 10:53:14 AM EDT
[#7]
That ain't proof...that's luck. If you want proof just look around you. God made everything but that doesn't mean He controls everything. Sgat1r5 |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 10:54:18 AM EDT
[#8]
You are really streathing here son. Sgat1r5 |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 10:56:49 AM EDT
[#9]
that's called Satan buddy, remember there is good and evil, there's your fucking break.
___________________________________________________________________ The anglicized “Satan” is derived from the Hebrew “Shattan”, which means adversary. As the Christian bible borrowed much from the Hebrew Torah, this topic has been mis-translated and it’s original meaning obscured. The Hebrew “Shattan” refers to the evil inclination of humankind, as we are often our own adversaries. Jewish Ed |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 10:58:55 AM EDT
[#10]
you people can find God or no God anyway you wish, when 300+ people walk away from a plane crash like that, besides "everything" around me, and all that has happened to and for me, this was just another sign from the Man Upstairs. Good luck to you all.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 11:33:06 AM EDT
[#11]
Yeah, God doesn't love French People either......... 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 11:37:24 AM EDT
[#12]
I'm waiting for a burning bush in my yard then I'll have my proof
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 11:41:03 AM EDT
[#13]
That's the same line of thinking that "moderate " Muslims use to say "Jihad" is a struggle with yourself to improve, rather than warring against the infidel. However, untold thousands (millions?) of infidels have been slaughtered over the centuries in the name of Jihad. Was Eve actually tempted by the serpent in the Garden, or was it a metaphor for a crisis of conscience? Who was it in Isaiah that said he would ascend to the throne of the Most High? Who was it that accused Job before God? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 11:53:52 AM EDT
[#14]
____________________________________________________________________ That's the same line of thinking that "moderate " Muslims use to say "Jihad" is a struggle with yourself to improve, rather than warring against the infidel. However, untold thousands (millions?) of infidels have been slaughtered over the centuries in the name of Jihad. _____________________________________________________________________ Your religious-Fu is weak on this matter, simply doesn't make sense based upon the mistranslation I proferred of "Shattan". Was Eve actually tempted by the serpent in the Garden, or was it a metaphor for a crisis of conscience? Most widely interpreted, again, as humankinds inclination to do to evil, or in this instance, disobey. Many spiritual people see G-d as a parental figure. You folks who have children...what would you believe would happen were you to tell your children not to touch this or that? Well, they will. In Jewish tradition, the events in Eden are interpretated as the failings of man and the beginning of mans reason to understand the ramifications of actions. So, too, as with our own fathers, G-d also begins a learning relationship with mankind. As the rest of the Torah develops, this theme is continued by which both man's relationship to his bretheren, and to G-d, try to work things out. Untold millions destroyed by Jihad? Perhaps, though my thoughts would gravitate towards the untold thousands of Jewish lives that were destroyed during the series of Crusades that devastated Jewish communities in Europe on the way to the Holy Land. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 3:11:11 PM EDT
[#15]
The crusaders were not discriminating in choosing what people to kill and steal from on the way to the holy land. I suspect there were others besides Christians and Jews and Muslims who fell to the Crusaders' swords. Jim |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 3:17:50 PM EDT
[#16]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: Untold millions destroyed by Jihad? Perhaps, though my thoughts would gravitate towards the untold thousands of Jewish lives that were destroyed during the series of Crusades that devastated Jewish and Christian communities in Europe on the way to the Holy Land. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The crusaders were not discriminating in choosing what people to kill and steal from on the way to the holy land. I suspect there were others besides Christians and Jews and Muslims who fell to the Crusaders' swords. Jim ___________________________________________________________ Granted...and thank you. Jewish Ed |
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 3:27:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Sorry, 300 lucky people surviving a hard landing and subsequent fire does not PROVE to me that capital-g God exists.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 3:30:54 PM EDT
[#18]
So Satan is more powerful than God and can kill people? What a neat alternative to worshipping something that sends you to Hell for eternity just for not believing in him. Satan sounds better than God all the time. I wonder which myth I'll embrace... |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 3:53:24 PM EDT
[#19]
People seem to forget 100,000+ tsunami victims less than 9 months year ago. If anything, it would lean towards the position of proof that God doesn't exist. 300 is proof in favor and 100,000+ dead is not? Unless the Big Man is practiciing profiling or something. I guess you could write both off as "God's Will", but it'll be just that, and not proof. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 3:54:13 PM EDT
[#20]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 4:11:56 PM EDT
[#21]
Exactly! I've been trying to cut back on the heavy moderation of this forum. The regular posters in here have been doing a great job at keeping the discussions civil. I let a couple of things slide, and this is what happens.  Everyone is reminded that this isn't the GD, and you are expected to behave in here. ETA: I'm going to leave this unlocked for now. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 4:47:51 PM EDT
[#22]
remember that the first couple responses are from when this thread was in GD prior to the move |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 5:03:39 PM EDT
[#23]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 5:36:04 PM EDT
[#24]
I've never bought into the idea that people surviving dangerous situations is a proof of God's existence. Even when I was a Christian, I didn't buy into that. Too many people die in freak accidents to make miracles of those who survive catastrophes.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 5:36:47 PM EDT
[#25]
I believe you are missing his point. When a plane crashes, people are SUPPOSED to die - its expected. But for everyone to walk away from a plane that crashes, splits in two and bursts into a big fireball?? It could well be argued that the usual circumstances were somehow suspended in this case. And I believe every logically honest mind MUST wonder how it happenned. Luck? Coincidence? God? If it happened 10 times, what are odds even ONE would have no fatalities? VERY low. which means teh odds are VERY low it was luck or coincidence. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 5:39:22 PM EDT
[#26]
This seems to presume that God is on some level obligated to ONLY let good things happen to everyone. That God is obligated to NOT let my co-worker die of cancer, or my in-laws to bury their 25 yo son. That God is some sort of personal galactic bodyguard duty bound to only bring good into our lives. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 5:42:21 PM EDT
[#27]
I wouldn't say it should PROVE God exists, but it IS evidence of something OTHER THAN "normal." Normal would be LOTS of bodies, here there were none. Then the only question is "How many evidences do you need, not to PROVE God, but to beleive in God?" |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 5:47:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Again, PROVING God is NOT an objective of Christianity, as it eliminates faith. The Bible says that WITHOUT faith it is impossible to please God. I have NO idea what teh real story behind this crash is. Could be something, could be nothing at all. I do know this - In teh end days, MANY will say to God "Why didn't you give me a sign? I would have believed." Scripture indicates God will point to an event JUST LIKE THIS and say "I ***DID**** give you a sign, many signs in fact. And you dismissed them as coincidence when logic demanded they were much more than luck." |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 6:23:32 PM EDT
[#29]
You just nailed it. It is a belief in God. There will (in my opinion) never be enough "proof" to convince everyone. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 6:31:04 PM EDT
[#30]
You are absolutely right. Even the statement "Prove God exists" shows a gross misunderstanding of Chrsitianity. It is NOT our mandated, God given goal to "prove" Him, as that would eliminate the faith component. And As the Bible says "Without faith, its impossible to please God." |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 6:56:02 PM EDT
[#31]
Locked: If anyone wants to continue this discussion, please start a new thread.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/3/2005 7:06:04 PM EDT
[#32]
I'm unlocking this one by request of another member. Please keep the discussion on track and polite.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2005 6:49:13 PM EDT
[#33]
The differance most likely was, more than one "faithfull" person on that flight was praying in the name of Jesus Christ. Prayers of the rightous are heard and answered.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2005 6:52:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Good point - Jas 5:16 The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. Mt 17:0 for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. I read a headline in todays paper the zero casualty thing was being called a "miracle." Oddly, a "mountain" just moved "from here to there" - and people still dismiss it as nothing. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2005 7:13:54 PM EDT
[#35]
Normal would be landing the plane without crashing. Sgat1r5 |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/4/2005 7:27:13 PM EDT
[#36]
Your observations are selective, at least garandman gives himself an out. For example, by the same logic, god must love Canadian and French Socialists as he saved them, but did nothing to protect our marines that were killed  by that IED on the very same day. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 3:52:45 AM EDT
[#37]
We're talking about what would be normal where a plane crashes, splits in two and bursts into fire. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 4:42:07 AM EDT
[#38]
Great point.....some would consider it a "miracle" that the place could get off the ground in the first place. But to address a larger point.... If the Christian God is said to be a personal God, than how is this crash proof of anything? Unless God revealed (or reveals) himself to each passenger, couldn't you make the argument that this crash is likely the the work of some other vengeful God???? |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 4:45:44 AM EDT
[#39]
LOL, Nah, you'd just be running around with a gun trying to find someone with a gas can and matches. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 4:49:42 AM EDT
[#40]
|
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 7:15:33 AM EDT
[#41]
God can not save everyone everywhere. God loves all people and how about all the Marines that survive extreme combat situations everyday. Remember this is not a perfect world or all my family that's gone would not be. This world here is only temporary, to ascend to the Kingdom of Heaven is our true place. I'm not trying to convince anyone about the existence of God, people in other threads posted about religion claim no evidence or want a miracle to see, just pointing out His latest. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 10:23:40 AM EDT
[#42]
Why not? If God creates everything on this earth, then God can save every single one...anytime...anywhere. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 10:26:22 AM EDT
[#43]
Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't one of the principles of the christian faith that God is all-powerful? Raised christian, but see too many problems with christianity to consider myself christian anymore....this being one of the problems I was never able to resolve satisfactorily. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 10:38:28 AM EDT
[#44]
Here is a very good lecture by Dr. Bill Craig on Christian evidence. I think some of you might really enjoy it. It seems appropriate in light of the topic.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 10:42:12 AM EDT
[#45]
God CAN do whatever He wills to do. But He does not will to save everyone all the time. And good that He doesn't, cuz the price of gas and housing would be outrageous, and the planet severly overcrowded. If you require God to intervene benovolently, then He must also intervene WHILE you are sinning, striking you dead. Anyone signing up for that deal? I don't think so. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 11:14:46 AM EDT
[#46]
See.... Here's a perfect example of how a traditional, orthodox interpretation of texts simply does now allow for God to exist and for bad things to happen at the same time. It's way too easy just to say God works in mysterious ways. It's not enough. If it made any sense, really, there would be no atheists. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 11:29:13 AM EDT
[#47]
Why not? Is not your interpretation of God all-powerful? Is he not all-knowing? Is he not limitless? hmmm.... Assuming that God is all of those things, does it not, then, become a matter of choice? God could save everyone everywhere but choosesnot to? The question that has been plaguing humanity since time out of mind is why God would choose such things for us. With God, there is no choice. There is no this or that. God just Is. It is only when we fall into created existence that it becomes a matter of choice; that it becomes a division between one thing and another. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 11:53:25 AM EDT
[#48]
I'm taking issue with the statement that he CAN'T.....not that he doesn't. If he wanted to, he COULD, could he not? if he truely cannot (as in, he is incapable) then he isn't "all powerful", correct? I suspect the answer will be "he can do anything he wants to", thereby avoiding the issue altogether. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 12:44:54 PM EDT
[#49]
How presumptuous. No offense, but you're dead wrong here. Could you please explain to me why it is impossible for God -- as understood through a more traditional interpretation of the Bible -- to ever permit anything bad to happen, for any reason, here on earth?
Wrong again.  1. I don't care how easy it is to say a given thing -- I just want to know if it's true or not. I suppose I could make it harder to say, if you like. "God's nature and actions are largely (most often completely) beyond the comprehension of our finite minds. Thus, in other words, He and they remain mysterious to us." Means the same thing . . .  2. You say "It's not enough," in response to one saying that God 's nature and actions are mysterious to us. What I want to know is: Not enough for what? 3. You say that espousing the fact that one cannot fully comprehend the nature and actions of God makes no sense. What does this mean? I mean, can you fully comprehend God? That is, has He revealed to you perfect knowledge of Himself? 4. Ok, on this one you have really gone far out there. You claim that there would be no atheists if saying God's nature and actions are beyond (often totally beyond) our comprehension. made sense. Now this is obviously just bad logic. Plain and simple. For one, again, this is just incredibly presumptuous. I mean, do you know every atheist? Do you know why each one of them suppresses belief in God? On your logic, do the reasons for opposing another assault weapon ban just not make sense? After all, there are plenty of people opposed to those reasons, and are actually pushing to get another AWB in place. What about it being wrong to kill people without justification? That must not make sense. If it did, the Nazis would have left the Jews alone. Right? At any rate, that logic (flawed as it is) can work both ways. Instead of saying "If it made any sense, really, there would be no atheists," you could have said, "If it didn't make any sense, really, there would be no theists." So, ultimately, the only dividing factor -- at least in that logic -- is what you arbitrarily presume. P.S. You ought to go listen to that lecture that I linked to in my last post in this thread. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 8/5/2005 3:00:06 PM EDT
[#50]
Those like myself, who want proof get it by lack thereof*
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
