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Posted: 8/3/2005 10:21:10 AM EDT
So, there has been alot posted here lately about how if God exists were is the proof. How about a huge plane crash where the plane actually splits in half on landing, skids into a gully and erupts into a huge fire with over 300 people on board and all walk away. Now that's a miracle by God's own hand, proof given, now let's start the conversions.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:22:58 AM EDT
No way man, that's just coincidence. They were French but had the luck o' the Irish that day...

/totally don't mean it...
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:25:19 AM EDT
yeah and everyone died on TWA 800 because god was having an off day right?

give me a fucking break.

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:27:10 AM EDT
one could just as easily say that if god existed he would'nt let it happen in the first place.

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:44:04 AM EDT
Somebody's trying way to hard.....
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:51:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 10:52:11 AM EDT by scuba_ed]
Such efforts at "proofs" are irrelevant as any faith community has it's own "proofs" by which it's members find communal and spiritual comfort.

Far more serious introspection by the individual will lead those on a path toward a more meaningful religious avenue. You spoke of "conversions".

It was my own religious journey that led me to Judaism.

Please, faith means more to members of this forum, and our society in general than such trivial pursuits as you postulated.


Jewish Ed
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:52:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
yeah and everyone died on TWA 800 because god was having an off day right?

give me a fucking break.




that's called Satan buddy, remember there is good and evil, there's your fucking break.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:53:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By np50bmg4evr:
So, there has been alot posted here lately about how if God exists were is the proof. How about a huge plane crash where the plane actually splits in half on landing, skids into a gully and erupts into a huge fire with over 300 people on board and all walk away. Now that's a miracle by God's own hand, proof given, now let's start the conversions.




That ain't proof...that's luck.

If you want proof just look around you.

God made everything but that doesn't mean He controls everything.

Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:54:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By np50bmg4evr:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
yeah and everyone died on TWA 800 because god was having an off day right?

give me a fucking break.




that's called Satan buddy, remember there is good and evil, there's your fucking break.



You are really streathing here son.

Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:56:49 AM EDT
that's called Satan buddy, remember there is good and evil, there's your fucking break.

___________________________________________________________________

The anglicized “Satan” is derived from the Hebrew “Shattan”, which means adversary. As the Christian bible borrowed much from the Hebrew Torah, this topic has been mis-translated and it’s original meaning obscured.

The Hebrew “Shattan” refers to the evil inclination of humankind, as we are often our own adversaries.


Jewish Ed
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 10:58:55 AM EDT
you people can find God or no God anyway you wish, when 300+ people walk away from a plane crash like that, besides "everything" around me, and all that has happened to and for me, this was just another sign from the Man Upstairs. Good luck to you all.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:33:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 11:33:37 AM EDT by TexasSIG]

Originally Posted By macman37:
No way man, that's just coincidence. They were French but had the luck o' the Irish that day...

/totally don't mean it...




Yeah, God doesn't love French People either.........
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:37:24 AM EDT
I'm waiting for a burning bush in my yard then I'll have my proof
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:41:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:
that's called Satan buddy, remember there is good and evil, there's your fucking break.

___________________________________________________________________

The anglicized “Satan” is derived from the Hebrew “Shattan”, which means adversary. As the Christian bible borrowed much from the Hebrew Torah, this topic has been mis-translated and it’s original meaning obscured.

The Hebrew “Shattan” refers to the evil inclination of humankind, as we are often our own adversaries.


Jewish Ed



That's the same line of thinking that "moderate " Muslims use to say "Jihad" is a struggle with yourself to improve, rather than warring against the infidel.

However, untold thousands (millions?) of infidels have been slaughtered over the centuries in the name of Jihad.

Was Eve actually tempted by the serpent in the Garden, or was it a metaphor for a crisis of conscience?

Who was it in Isaiah that said he would ascend to the throne of the Most High?

Who was it that accused Job before God?
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 11:53:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 11:56:51 AM EDT by scuba_ed]

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:
that's called Satan buddy, remember there is good and evil, there's your fucking break.

___________________________________________________________________

The anglicized “Satan” is derived from the Hebrew “Shattan”, which means adversary. As the Christian bible borrowed much from the Hebrew Torah, this topic has been mis-translated and it’s original meaning obscured.

The Hebrew “Shattan” refers to the evil inclination of humankind, as we are often our own adversaries.


Jewish Ed



That's the same line of thinking that "moderate " Muslims use to say "Jihad" is a struggle with yourself to improve, rather than warring against the infidel.

However, untold thousands (millions?) of infidels have been slaughtered over the centuries in the name of Jihad.

Was Eve actually tempted by the serpent in the Garden, or was it a metaphor for a crisis of conscience?

Who was it in Isaiah that said he would ascend to the throne of the Most High?

Who was it that accused Job before God?



____________________________________________________________________

That's the same line of thinking that "moderate " Muslims use to say "Jihad" is a struggle with yourself to improve, rather than warring against the infidel.

However, untold thousands (millions?) of infidels have been slaughtered over the centuries in the name of Jihad.


_____________________________________________________________________

Your religious-Fu is weak on this matter, simply doesn't make sense based upon the mistranslation I proferred of "Shattan".

Was Eve actually tempted by the serpent in the Garden, or was it a metaphor for a crisis of conscience?

Most widely interpreted, again, as humankinds inclination to do to evil, or in this instance, disobey. Many spiritual people see G-d as a parental figure. You folks who have children...what would you believe would happen were you to tell your children not to touch this or that?

Well, they will. In Jewish tradition, the events in Eden are interpretated as the failings of man and the beginning of mans reason to understand the ramifications of actions. So, too, as with our own fathers, G-d also begins a learning relationship with mankind. As the rest of the Torah develops, this theme is continued by which both man's relationship to his bretheren, and to G-d, try to work things out.

Untold millions destroyed by Jihad? Perhaps, though my thoughts would gravitate towards the untold thousands of Jewish lives that were destroyed during the series of Crusades that devastated Jewish communities in Europe on the way to the Holy Land.

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:11:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Untold millions destroyed by Jihad? Perhaps, though my thoughts would gravitate towards the untold thousands of Jewish lives that were destroyed during the series of Crusades that devastated Jewish and Christian communities in Europe on the way to the Holy Land.



The crusaders were not discriminating in choosing what people to kill and steal from on the way to the holy land.

I suspect there were others besides Christians and Jews and Muslims who fell to the Crusaders' swords.

Jim
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:17:50 PM EDT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Untold millions destroyed by Jihad? Perhaps, though my thoughts would gravitate towards the untold thousands of Jewish lives that were destroyed during the series of Crusades that devastated Jewish and Christian communities in Europe on the way to the Holy Land.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




The crusaders were not discriminating in choosing what people to kill and steal from on the way to the holy land.

I suspect there were others besides Christians and Jews and Muslims who fell to the Crusaders' swords.

Jim


___________________________________________________________

Granted...and thank you.

Jewish Ed
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:27:33 PM EDT
Sorry, 300 lucky people surviving a hard landing and subsequent fire does not PROVE to me that capital-g God exists.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:30:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By np50bmg4evr:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
yeah and everyone died on TWA 800 because god was having an off day right?

give me a fucking break.




that's called Satan buddy, remember there is good and evil, there's your fucking break.



So Satan is more powerful than God and can kill people?

What a neat alternative to worshipping something that sends you to Hell for eternity just for not believing in him.

Satan sounds better than God all the time. I wonder which myth I'll embrace...
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:53:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
Sorry, 300 lucky people surviving a hard landing and subsequent fire does not PROVE to me that capital-g God exists.




People seem to forget 100,000+ tsunami victims less than 9 months year ago. If anything, it would lean towards the position of proof that God doesn't exist. 300 is proof in favor and 100,000+ dead is not? Unless the Big Man is practiciing profiling or something. I guess you could write both off as "God's Will", but it'll be just that, and not proof.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 3:54:13 PM EDT
stop bashing and trolling people!!

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=135&t=372979
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 4:11:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 4:13:19 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 4:47:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:

Originally Posted By AROKIE:
stop bashing and trolling people!!

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=135&t=372979




Exactly!


I've been trying to cut back on the heavy moderation of this forum. The regular posters in here have been doing a great job at keeping the discussions civil. I let a couple of things slide, and this is what happens.


Everyone is reminded that this isn't the GD, and you are expected to behave in here.


ETA: I'm going to leave this unlocked for now.



remember that the first couple responses are from when this thread was in GD prior to the move
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 5:03:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 5:36:04 PM EDT
I've never bought into the idea that people surviving dangerous situations is a proof of God's existence. Even when I was a Christian, I didn't buy into that. Too many people die in freak accidents to make miracles of those who survive catastrophes.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 5:36:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
yeah and everyone died on TWA 800 because god was having an off day right?

give me a fucking break.




I believe you are missing his point.

When a plane crashes, people are SUPPOSED to die - its expected.

But for everyone to walk away from a plane that crashes, splits in two and bursts into a big fireball??

It could well be argued that the usual circumstances were somehow suspended in this case.

And I believe every logically honest mind MUST wonder how it happenned.

Luck? Coincidence? God?

If it happened 10 times, what are odds even ONE would have no fatalities? VERY low. which means teh odds are VERY low it was luck or coincidence.

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 5:39:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fish223:
one could just as easily say that if god existed he would'nt let it happen in the first place.




This seems to presume that God is on some level obligated to ONLY let good things happen to everyone.

That God is obligated to NOT let my co-worker die of cancer, or my in-laws to bury their 25 yo son.

That God is some sort of personal galactic bodyguard duty bound to only bring good into our lives.

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 5:42:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 5:43:37 PM EDT by garandman]

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
Sorry, 300 lucky people surviving a hard landing and subsequent fire does not PROVE to me that capital-g God exists.



I wouldn't say it should PROVE God exists, but it IS evidence of something OTHER THAN "normal."

Normal would be LOTS of bodies, here there were none.

Then the only question is "How many evidences do you need, not to PROVE God, but to beleive in God?"

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 5:47:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
I've never bought into the idea that people surviving dangerous situations is a proof of God's existence. Even when I was a Christian, I didn't buy into that. Too many people die in freak accidents to make miracles of those who survive catastrophes.



Again, PROVING God is NOT an objective of Christianity, as it eliminates faith. The Bible says that WITHOUT faith it is impossible to please God.

I have NO idea what teh real story behind this crash is. Could be something, could be nothing at all.

I do know this -

In teh end days, MANY will say to God "Why didn't you give me a sign? I would have believed." Scripture indicates God will point to an event JUST LIKE THIS and say "I ***DID**** give you a sign, many signs in fact. And you dismissed them as coincidence when logic demanded they were much more than luck."

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:23:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
Sorry, 300 lucky people surviving a hard landing and subsequent fire does not PROVE to me that capital-g God exists.



I wouldn't say it should PROVE God exists, but it IS evidence of something OTHER THAN "normal."

Normal would be LOTS of bodies, here there were none.

Then the only question is "How many evidences do you need, not to PROVE God, but to beleive in God?"




You just nailed it. It is a belief in God. There will (in my opinion) never be enough "proof" to convince everyone.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:31:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

You just nailed it. It is a belief in God. There will (in my opinion) never be enough "proof" to convince everyone.



You are absolutely right.

Even the statement "Prove God exists" shows a gross misunderstanding of Chrsitianity.

It is NOT our mandated, God given goal to "prove" Him, as that would eliminate the faith component.

And As the Bible says "Without faith, its impossible to please God."

Link Posted: 8/3/2005 6:56:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 6:56:02 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
Locked: If anyone wants to continue this discussion, please start a new thread.
Link Posted: 8/3/2005 7:06:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/3/2005 7:06:04 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
I'm unlocking this one by request of another member. Please keep the discussion on track and polite.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:49:13 PM EDT
The differance most likely was, more than one "faithfull" person on that flight was praying in the name of Jesus Christ. Prayers of the rightous are heard and answered.
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 6:52:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2005 6:53:46 PM EDT by garandman]

Originally Posted By TrashHeap:
The differance most likely was, more than one "faithfull" person on that flight was praying in the name of Jesus Christ. Prayers of the rightous are heard and answered.



Good point -

Jas 5:16 The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Mt 17:0 for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

I read a headline in todays paper the zero casualty thing was being called a "miracle."

Oddly, a "mountain" just moved "from here to there" - and people still dismiss it as nothing.



Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:13:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
Sorry, 300 lucky people surviving a hard landing and subsequent fire does not PROVE to me that capital-g God exists.



I wouldn't say it should PROVE God exists, but it IS evidence of something OTHER THAN "normal."

Normal would be LOTS of bodies, here there were none.

Then the only question is "How many evidences do you need, not to PROVE God, but to beleive in God?"




Normal would be landing the plane without crashing.


Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 8/4/2005 7:27:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By np50bmg4evr:
So, there has been alot posted here lately about how if God exists were is the proof. How about a huge plane crash where the plane actually splits in half on landing, skids into a gully and erupts into a huge fire with over 300 people on board and all walk away. Now that's a miracle by God's own hand, proof given, now let's start the conversions.



Your observations are selective, at least garandman gives himself an out.

For example, by the same logic, god must love Canadian and French Socialists as he saved them, but did nothing to protect our marines that were killed by that IED on the very same day.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 3:52:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
Sorry, 300 lucky people surviving a hard landing and subsequent fire does not PROVE to me that capital-g God exists.



I wouldn't say it should PROVE God exists, but it IS evidence of something OTHER THAN "normal."

Normal would be LOTS of bodies, here there were none.

Then the only question is "How many evidences do you need, not to PROVE God, but to beleive in God?"




Normal would be landing the plane without crashing.


Sgat1r5



We're talking about what would be normal where a plane crashes, splits in two and bursts into fire.

Link Posted: 8/5/2005 4:42:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 4:48:09 AM EDT by NoVaGator]

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
Sorry, 300 lucky people surviving a hard landing and subsequent fire does not PROVE to me that capital-g God exists.



I wouldn't say it should PROVE God exists, but it IS evidence of something OTHER THAN "normal."

Normal would be LOTS of bodies, here there were none.

Then the only question is "How many evidences do you need, not to PROVE God, but to beleive in God?"




Normal would be landing the plane without crashing.


Sgat1r5



Great point.....some would consider it a "miracle" that the place could get off the ground in the first place.



But to address a larger point....

If the Christian God is said to be a personal God, than how is this crash proof of anything?

Unless God revealed (or reveals) himself to each passenger, couldn't you make the argument that this crash is likely the the work of some other vengeful God????
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 4:45:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 4:49:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 7:15:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By np50bmg4evr:
So, there has been alot posted here lately about how if God exists were is the proof. How about a huge plane crash where the plane actually splits in half on landing, skids into a gully and erupts into a huge fire with over 300 people on board and all walk away. Now that's a miracle by God's own hand, proof given, now let's start the conversions.



Your observations are selective, at least garandman gives himself an out.

For example, by the same logic, god must love Canadian and French Socialists as he saved them, but did nothing to protect our marines that were killed by that IED on the very same day.



God can not save everyone everywhere. God loves all people and how about all the Marines that survive extreme combat situations everyday. Remember this is not a perfect world or all my family that's gone would not be. This world here is only temporary, to ascend to the Kingdom of Heaven is our true place. I'm not trying to convince anyone about the existence of God, people in other threads posted about religion claim no evidence or want a miracle to see, just pointing out His latest.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 10:23:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 10:26:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By np50bmg4evr:

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:

Originally Posted By np50bmg4evr:
So, there has been alot posted here lately about how if God exists were is the proof. How about a huge plane crash where the plane actually splits in half on landing, skids into a gully and erupts into a huge fire with over 300 people on board and all walk away. Now that's a miracle by God's own hand, proof given, now let's start the conversions.



Your observations are selective, at least garandman gives himself an out.

For example, by the same logic, god must love Canadian and French Socialists as he saved them, but did nothing to protect our marines that were killed by that IED on the very same day.



God can not save everyone everywhere. God loves all people and how about all the Marines that survive extreme combat situations everyday. Remember this is not a perfect world or all my family that's gone would not be. This world here is only temporary, to ascend to the Kingdom of Heaven is our true place. I'm not trying to convince anyone about the existence of God, people in other threads posted about religion claim no evidence or want a miracle to see, just pointing out His latest.



Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't one of the principles of the christian faith that God is all-powerful?


Raised christian, but see too many problems with christianity to consider myself christian anymore....this being one of the problems I was never able to resolve satisfactorily.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 10:38:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 10:40:24 AM EDT by Mr-H]
Here is a very good lecture by Dr. Bill Craig on Christian evidence. I think some of you might really enjoy it. It seems appropriate in light of the topic.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 10:42:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By np50bmg4evr:
God can not save everyone everywhere



Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't one of the principles of the christian faith that God is all-powerful?


.



God CAN do whatever He wills to do.

But He does not will to save everyone all the time.

And good that He doesn't, cuz the price of gas and housing would be outrageous, and the planet severly overcrowded.


If you require God to intervene benovolently, then He must also intervene WHILE you are sinning, striking you dead.

Anyone signing up for that deal?

I don't think so.


Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:14:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fish223:
one could just as easily say that if god existed he would'nt let it happen in the first place.



See.... Here's a perfect example of how a traditional, orthodox interpretation of texts simply does now allow for God to exist and for bad things to happen at the same time.

It's way too easy just to say God works in mysterious ways. It's not enough. If it made any sense, really, there would be no atheists.

Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:29:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By np50bmg4evr:
God can not save everyone everywhere.


Why not?

Is not your interpretation of God all-powerful? Is he not all-knowing? Is he not limitless?

hmmm....

Assuming that God is all of those things, does it not, then, become a matter of choice? God could save everyone everywhere but choosesnot to?

The question that has been plaguing humanity since time out of mind is why God would choose such things for us.

With God, there is no choice. There is no this or that. God just Is. It is only when we fall into created existence that it becomes a matter of choice; that it becomes a division between one thing and another.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:53:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:

Originally Posted By np50bmg4evr:
God can not save everyone everywhere



Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't one of the principles of the christian faith that God is all-powerful?


.



God CAN do whatever He wills to do.

But He does not will to save everyone all the time.

And good that He doesn't, cuz the price of gas and housing would be outrageous, and the planet severly overcrowded.


If you require God to intervene benovolently, then He must also intervene WHILE you are sinning, striking you dead.

Anyone signing up for that deal?

I don't think so.





I'm taking issue with the statement that he CAN'T.....not that he doesn't.

If he wanted to, he COULD, could he not? if he truely cannot (as in, he is incapable) then he isn't "all powerful", correct?

I suspect the answer will be "he can do anything he wants to", thereby avoiding the issue altogether.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:44:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 1:03:11 PM EDT by Mr-H]

Originally Posted By hydgirl: See.... Here's a perfect example of how a traditional, orthodox interpretation of texts simply does now allow for God to exist and for bad things to happen at the same time.


How presumptuous. No offense, but you're dead wrong here. Could you please explain to me why it is impossible for God -- as understood through a more traditional interpretation of the Bible -- to ever permit anything bad to happen, for any reason, here on earth?


hydgirl: It's way too easy just to say God works in mysterious ways. It's not enough. If it made any sense, really, there would be no atheists.

Wrong again.

1. I don't care how easy it is to say a given thing -- I just want to know if it's true or not. I suppose I could make it harder to say, if you like. "God's nature and actions are largely (most often completely) beyond the comprehension of our finite minds. Thus, in other words, He and they remain mysterious to us."

Means the same thing . . .

2. You say "It's not enough," in response to one saying that God 's nature and actions are mysterious to us. What I want to know is: Not enough for what?

3. You say that espousing the fact that one cannot fully comprehend the nature and actions of God makes no sense. What does this mean? I mean, can you fully comprehend God? That is, has He revealed to you perfect knowledge of Himself?

4. Ok, on this one you have really gone far out there. You claim that there would be no atheists if saying God's nature and actions are beyond (often totally beyond) our comprehension. made sense. Now this is obviously just bad logic. Plain and simple. For one, again, this is just incredibly presumptuous. I mean, do you know every atheist? Do you know why each one of them suppresses belief in God?
On your logic, do the reasons for opposing another assault weapon ban just not make sense? After all, there are plenty of people opposed to those reasons, and are actually pushing to get another AWB in place. What about it being wrong to kill people without justification? That must not make sense. If it did, the Nazis would have left the Jews alone. Right? At any rate, that logic (flawed as it is) can work both ways. Instead of saying "If it made any sense, really, there would be no atheists," you could have said, "If it didn't make any sense, really, there would be no theists." So, ultimately, the only dividing factor -- at least in that logic -- is what you arbitrarily presume.

P.S. You ought to go listen to that lecture that I linked to in my last post in this thread.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 3:00:06 PM EDT
Those like myself, who want proof get it by lack thereof*
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