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Posted: 6/16/2009 7:24:34 AM EST
My grandmother went into the hospital the 28th of May. She was having a fairly routine procedure done; a bypass in her left leg around a blockage. Well, after the bypass was done, she started having breathing problems. They put her in intensive car and hooked her up to a ventilator to help with her breathing. Just when we thought it couldn't get worse, her colon perforated, necessitating another major surgery to correct that. She's finally starting to make some progress towards healing up, but we're looking at some physical therapy to get her back on her feet. She's 77 and is very active, still mows her own lawn and everything, so that helps. She survived because when the colon perforation happened, the doctors got onto it fast and dealt with it.

If we had commie healthcare, she'd be dead due to all the bureaucracy, reduced quality, and reduced talent. So a hearty fuck you to anyone that thinks we need commie healthcare.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:32:50 AM EST
I'm with you.

I am blessed to have a healthy body, healthy wife and healthy daughter.

I do my best to provide for my family every way I can. I work hard so that I have health benefits. I also pay for catastrophic insurance, if God forbid, anything really disasterous happens.

It make me cry to think that by the time one day we might need good healthcare to keep us alive/well the system will be so screwed up by these ASSHOLE LIBS that we won't be able to get it any longer.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:35:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:36:13 AM EST
You will see black market healthcare before you see doctors en masse go along with ObamaCare.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:40:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 7:41:00 AM EST by ffsparky26]
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:41:57 AM EST
This is our future boys, get used to it

Obama Care Doctor Visit
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:44:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 7:45:54 AM EST by brifol6111]
Dealing with my Dad and the VA I would never trust our goverment with my health. My dad went into the hospital for a simple cathertization and to add stents (sp?) that he didnt need. 137 days later he was finally released, with a crippled right leg and this wonderful BS the goverment calls "Home Bound" status which he was set to by the VA without him knowing.

The VA (contract doctor) crippled him, made it to where he could no longer work at all (Home Bound blocked his ability to hold any job and still be able to collect benefits from all goverment services [VA, Social Security, etc.]) and forced him to attempt to live on approximately $1200 dollars a month. They denied his claims for Non-Servce related disability for three years before he passed away due to a side effect of the damage that they caused and he had no way to be comensated thanks to the twiested games.

I will never trust the US Goverment or any of its entities with my health if this is how they treat the people that they aleady provide health service to.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:44:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.

no shit. OP will deny it though
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:49:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By MACD:

Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.

no shit. OP will deny it though



Medicare or not, the only reason halfway decent healthcare is available today is because of the private sector. The Medicare, Medicaid, and uninsured benefit from that. If the private sector is crippled, it will all be shit, I think that is the point here.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:52:57 AM EST
With Obama health care rationing, they may not have even "wasted precious resources" on a 77 year old patient.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:57:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
Originally Posted By MACD:

Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.

no shit. OP will deny it though

Medicare or not, the only reason halfway decent healthcare is available today is because of the private sector. The Medicare, Medicaid, and uninsured benefit from that. If the private sector is crippled, it will all be shit, I think that is the point here.

That may have been his point, but it's a bit ironic that he uses a medicare granny sapping close to a million $$$ in treatment from a system she couldn't have possibly paid as much into. Granny would be dead without "communist" healthcare.

Originally Posted By JamesP81:
...If we had commie healthcare, she'd be dead due to all the bureaucracy, reduced quality, and reduced talent. So a hearty fuck you to anyone that thinks we need commie healthcare.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:00:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
Originally Posted By MACD:

Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.

no shit. OP will deny it though



Medicare or not, the only reason halfway decent healthcare is available today is because of the private sector. The Medicare, Medicaid, and uninsured benefit from that. If the private sector is crippled, it will all be shit, I think that is the point here.

The high prices we/our insurance pays makes up for the lack of payment from medicare so yes, it balances out. Those still working pay healthcare benefits and usually the payouts to doctors, hospitals, etc. are higher than that of medicare. It sort of balances itself out.

Take away the private portion or as said above cripple it and you get less money into the system. The less private money going in and the more government controls it the health care system starts to look like the parts of the VA system or worse.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:01:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 8:01:46 AM EST by ttushooter]
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.


she is ELIGABLE for Medicare. If she has her own private insurance, it will be primary to medicare. Trust me, medicare don't pay shit if there is someone else out there to pay the bill (meaning private insurance).
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:01:32 AM EST
Lemme guess...Medicare is paying for her hospital stay, right?

Last time I checked, Medicare was a .gov program.

Is that sort of like "commie" healthcare?
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:05:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
Originally Posted By MACD:

Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.

no shit. OP will deny it though



Medicare or not, the only reason halfway decent healthcare is available today is because of the private sector. The Medicare, Medicaid, and uninsured benefit from that. If the private sector is crippled, it will all be shit, I think that is the point here.

By the "private sector", you mean that "for profit" business called "health care"? The one that makes it's profits by collecting premiums and denying claims?

They sure have you bullshitted...

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:08:51 AM EST
Had an aunt visit us from Australia where they have commie health care. She's a transplant patient so she's always on drugs and her imune system is weak. She picked up something and had to be rushed to the emergency room. She had paid for medical insurance before coming here just in case she would need to go to the hospital. She ended up staying in the hospital for a couple days and was released after everything was ok.

After she got out we began talking about the differences between here and AU. She said the hospital here was like staying at a 5 star hotel. In Australia there's blood on the floors and you can be sitting in the emergency waiting room waiting for someone to help you. It's the emergency room but you still have to wait.

Kinda sad that's what people here want.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:14:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By captwn1:

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
Originally Posted By MACD:

Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.

no shit. OP will deny it though



Medicare or not, the only reason halfway decent healthcare is available today is because of the private sector. The Medicare, Medicaid, and uninsured benefit from that. If the private sector is crippled, it will all be shit, I think that is the point here.

By the "private sector", you mean that "for profit" business called "health care"? The one that makes it's profits by collecting premiums and denying claims?

They sure have you bullshitted...



So if everyone was on medicare or this mystical "public option" being promoted by the left, healthcare would remain the same or improve? That is hysterical, you do realize the government screws up everything it touches, right? Ever worked for them, I've worked for the feds and the private sector in the same field, with the government it costs three times as much to get half the work done versus the private sector.

How many doctors are you going to recruit to government run healthcare with probably lower pay, rationed resources, and even more bearucracy than is seen today?

You say "for profit" like it's a bad thing.

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:14:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
I am thinking we won't have the choice in whether to "go along" or not. In mother Russia Amerika health care goes along with YOU.

I'm glad you g'ma is doing better. Grandmas are the BEST!!

If communized medicine is forced down our throats, I say we bankrupt it. Drive around taking every illegal immigrant, every fat immobile welfare queen, everyone without a job to emergency rooms and doctor's office. Tell them Obama says doctors have to give them the drugs they want, the nose or boob job they want, etc. We can annihilate communized medicine within 2 months. Then when they're in a 36 hour wait at the ER, tell them Obama reneged, he just said those things to get their vote.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:17:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.

The only reason Medicare works is because it leeches off doctors' ability to take other insurance plans. Take away that higher pay, and then you get the lower skill, longer waits OP is talking about.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:25:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
Originally Posted By captwn1:

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
Originally Posted By MACD:

Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.

no shit. OP will deny it though



Medicare or not, the only reason halfway decent healthcare is available today is because of the private sector. The Medicare, Medicaid, and uninsured benefit from that. If the private sector is crippled, it will all be shit, I think that is the point here.

By the "private sector", you mean that "for profit" business called "health care"? The one that makes it's profits by collecting premiums and denying claims?

They sure have you bullshitted...



So if everyone was on medicare or this mystical "public option" being promoted by the left, healthcare would remain the same or improve? That is hysterical, you do realize the government screws up everything it touches, right? Ever worked for them, I've worked for the feds and the private sector in the same field, with the government it costs three times as much to get half the work done versus the private sector.

How many doctors are you going to recruit to government run healthcare with probably lower pay, rationed resources, and even more bearucracy than is seen today?

You say "for profit" like it's a bad thing.


The same doctors will provide the same care. They will get paid by the government. The problem with "for profit" healthcare isn't the quality of care, or the doctors who provide it. It is the fact that HMOs and PPOs don't make money by paying claims. They have a vested interest in NOT providing you quality care, and NOT paying your doctor, that is called their profit margin. But at least if they deny you care and you die, you can't sue them, so at least you have that going for you.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:32:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By JamesP81:
My grandmother went into the hospital the 28th of May. She was having a fairly routine procedure done; a bypass in her left leg around a blockage. Well, after the bypass was done, she started having breathing problems. They put her in intensive car and hooked her up to a ventilator to help with her breathing. Just when we thought it couldn't get worse, her colon perforated, necessitating another major surgery to correct that. She's finally starting to make some progress towards healing up, but we're looking at some physical therapy to get her back on her feet. She's 77 and is very active, still mows her own lawn and everything, so that helps. She survived because when the colon perforation happened, the doctors got onto it fast and dealt with it.

If we had commie healthcare, she'd be dead due to all the bureaucracy, reduced quality, and reduced talent. So a hearty fuck you to anyone that thinks we need commie healthcare.

Not really, even in nations with socialized health care.They have PRIVATE health care, that the government will interestingly pay for if you go there. o_O So your GM could have gone to a private hospital on say Australia and get the same kind of care she got here. Hell, even in a nationalized hospital, she'd probably get the same quick care when things kept going badly for her.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:33:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:37:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By captwn1:

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
Originally Posted By captwn1:

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
Originally Posted By MACD:

Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.

no shit. OP will deny it though



Medicare or not, the only reason halfway decent healthcare is available today is because of the private sector. The Medicare, Medicaid, and uninsured benefit from that. If the private sector is crippled, it will all be shit, I think that is the point here.

By the "private sector", you mean that "for profit" business called "health care"? The one that makes it's profits by collecting premiums and denying claims?

They sure have you bullshitted...



So if everyone was on medicare or this mystical "public option" being promoted by the left, healthcare would remain the same or improve? That is hysterical, you do realize the government screws up everything it touches, right? Ever worked for them, I've worked for the feds and the private sector in the same field, with the government it costs three times as much to get half the work done versus the private sector.

How many doctors are you going to recruit to government run healthcare with probably lower pay, rationed resources, and even more bearucracy than is seen today?

You say "for profit" like it's a bad thing.


The same doctors will provide the same care. They will get paid by the government. The problem with "for profit" healthcare isn't the quality of care, or the doctors who provide it. It is the fact that HMOs and PPOs don't make money by paying claims. They have a vested interest in NOT providing you quality care, and NOT paying your doctor, that is called their profit margin. But at least if they deny you care and you die, you can't sue them, so at least you have that going for you.

EXACTLY, things will stay about the same and that 15+% that is shaved off for profit can actually be used for medical care. Not saying national health care is the answer or anything, but it's always important to look for people's motivations. Who has the most to lose? Yup, the insurance companies.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:40:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By JamesP81:
My grandmother went into the hospital the 28th of May. She was having a fairly routine procedure done; a bypass in her left leg around a blockage. Well, after the bypass was done, she started having breathing problems. They put her in intensive car and hooked her up to a ventilator to help with her breathing. Just when we thought it couldn't get worse, her colon perforated, necessitating another major surgery to correct that. She's finally starting to make some progress towards healing up, but we're looking at some physical therapy to get her back on her feet. She's 77 and is very active, still mows her own lawn and everything, so that helps. She survived because when the colon perforation happened, the doctors got onto it fast and dealt with it.

If we had commie healthcare, she'd be dead due to all the bureaucracy, reduced quality, and reduced talent. So a hearty fuck you to anyone that thinks we need commie healthcare.


Yeah a 77 with health problems. That shows national health care is nuts
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:41:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:46:37 AM EST
The doctor will see you soon...



Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:51:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.


hey, the communists are THAT WAY!

another funtime arfcom circle jerk...
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:52:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By tc2k11:
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
I am thinking we won't have the choice in whether to "go along" or not. In mother Russia Amerika health care goes along with YOU.

I'm glad you g'ma is doing better. Grandmas are the BEST!!

If communized medicine is forced down our throats, I say we bankrupt it. Drive around taking every illegal immigrant, every fat immobile welfare queen, everyone without a job to emergency rooms and doctor's office. Tell them Obama says doctors have to give them the drugs they want, the nose or boob job they want, etc. We can annihilate communized medicine within 2 months. Then when they're in a 36 hour wait at the ER, tell them Obama reneged, he just said those things to get their vote.


lol... you actually want them to get more funding?

This is GOVERNMENT, not a private business.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:54:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By Tekka:

Originally Posted By captwn1:

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
Originally Posted By captwn1:

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
Originally Posted By MACD:

Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.

no shit. OP will deny it though



Medicare or not, the only reason halfway decent healthcare is available today is because of the private sector. The Medicare, Medicaid, and uninsured benefit from that. If the private sector is crippled, it will all be shit, I think that is the point here.

By the "private sector", you mean that "for profit" business called "health care"? The one that makes it's profits by collecting premiums and denying claims?

They sure have you bullshitted...



So if everyone was on medicare or this mystical "public option" being promoted by the left, healthcare would remain the same or improve? That is hysterical, you do realize the government screws up everything it touches, right? Ever worked for them, I've worked for the feds and the private sector in the same field, with the government it costs three times as much to get half the work done versus the private sector.

How many doctors are you going to recruit to government run healthcare with probably lower pay, rationed resources, and even more bearucracy than is seen today?

You say "for profit" like it's a bad thing.


The same doctors will provide the same care. They will get paid by the government. The problem with "for profit" healthcare isn't the quality of care, or the doctors who provide it. It is the fact that HMOs and PPOs don't make money by paying claims. They have a vested interest in NOT providing you quality care, and NOT paying your doctor, that is called their profit margin. But at least if they deny you care and you die, you can't sue them, so at least you have that going for you.

EXACTLY, things will stay about the same and that 15+% that is shaved off for profit can actually be used for medical care. Not saying national health care is the answer or anything, but it's always important to look for people's motivations. Who has the most to lose? Yup, the insurance companies.


Except that insurance companies must SELL themselves in the marketplace. If they are so "evil" and "bad" then people/companies won't buy their product, and they will cease to exist. The demonization of insurance companies and HMOs is done by the political left in order to sell socialized medicine. One is foolish to buy the BS.

If people and corporations don't buy the "product" then they won't have health care. They are a captive audience.

Why is it that many doctors are now not accepting patients with "insurance", if the product is so good?

The BS is not from the "left". It is from those who have a vested interest in the status quo, namely the HMOs and pharmaceutical companies that have bought and paid for most of Congress. Their business is booming and it will only get better as the population ages.

They want you to believe that only their method of delivering health care is the best. It simply isn't so.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 8:56:04 AM EST
Originally Posted By captwn1:

Originally Posted By LANCEMAN:
Originally Posted By MACD:

Originally Posted By ffsparky26:
Hate to piss on the party but if she is 77 she is on medicare.

no shit. OP will deny it though



Medicare or not, the only reason halfway decent healthcare is available today is because of the private sector. The Medicare, Medicaid, and uninsured benefit from that. If the private sector is crippled, it will all be shit, I think that is the point here.

By the "private sector", you mean that "for profit" business called "health care"? The one that makes it's profits by collecting premiums and denying claims?

They sure have you bullshitted...



I think you have health care confused with health insurance.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:02:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By captwn1:

If people and corporations don't buy the "product" then they won't have health care. They are a captive audience.

Why is it that many doctors are now not accepting patients with "insurance", if the product is so good?

The BS is not from the "left". It is from those who have a vested interest in the status quo, namely the HMOs and pharmaceutical companies that have bought and paid for most of Congress. Their business is booming and it will only get better as the population ages.

They want you to believe that only their method of delivering health care is the best. It simply isn't so.


Compared to a single payer system where people will have so many more options? And add to it the single payer is run by unfirable civil servants?

And I would love for you to point to me a doctor that is not taking private insurance patients but is still taking medicare ones.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:10:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:16:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By captwn1:

If people and corporations don't buy the "product" then they won't have health care. They are a captive audience.

Why is it that many doctors are now not accepting patients with "insurance", if the product is so good?

The BS is not from the "left". It is from those who have a vested interest in the status quo, namely the HMOs and pharmaceutical companies that have bought and paid for most of Congress. Their business is booming and it will only get better as the population ages.

They want you to believe that only their method of delivering health care is the best. It simply isn't so.


Compared to a single payer system where people will have so many more options? And add to it the single payer is run by unfirable civil servants?

And I would love for you to point to me a doctor that is not taking private insurance patients but is still taking medicare ones.

I personally know 2 doctors who no longer accept patients covered by a large insurance provider. They will treat them for payment up front only. The reason they give is the difficulty in getting promptly paid and the cost of maintaining a staff to deal with the insurance providers. They tell me that many more of their colleagues are doing the same. Perhaps they are lying.

So you think having your medical decisions made by a clerk at Aetna is a good thing?
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:17:10 AM EST
After she got out we began talking about the differences between here and AU. She said the hospital here was like staying at a 5 star hotel. In Australia there's blood on the floors and you can be sitting in the emergency waiting room waiting for someone to help you. It's the emergency room but you still have to wait.

Are you fucking kidding me? I bet your young and healthy and have never been to a US Emergency room. Its a fucking disaster. I was in one four years ago, hunting accident. And just last month my mother was in one when buckets at Ikea fell on her leg (severe lasceration + fractured foot). In my case it was a 4 hour wait and in her case it was 7 hours AND THEN SHE LEFT! the place is clogged with illegals and other assorted scum and hood rats. $5000 just for an ambulance ride. and while you're sitting there bleeding out they grill you and practically waterboard you about your insurance coverage. But thats OK, keep telling yourself our system isn't broken.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:19:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:29:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By captwn1:
<snip>

So you think having your medical decisions made by a clerk at Aetna is a good thing?


I'd say it's a damned bit better than having a government bureaucrat make those same decisions.

Keep in mind Aetna doesn't actually make the decision regarding treatment. They only decide whether to PAY for the treatment. If denied we can still get the treatment, but at our own expense. Government-run health care will make it illegal to be treated once denied. You think that's better?

How about we let DOCTORS determine treatment?

In all fairness, we don't know exactly what the terms of the alleged government plan is as it hasn't been determined yet. So, let's keep an open mind.

There is a lot of propaganda from all sides on this issue. Just follow the money.

The bottom line is that we as a nation have a problem when it comes to providing decent health care to all Americans. We need to solve it, and the answers aren't easy.

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:34:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By JamesP81:
My grandmother went into the hospital the 28th of May. She was having a fairly routine procedure done; a bypass in her left leg around a blockage. Well, after the bypass was done, she started having breathing problems. They put her in intensive car and hooked her up to a ventilator to help with her breathing. Just when we thought it couldn't get worse, her colon perforated, necessitating another major surgery to correct that. She's finally starting to make some progress towards healing up, but we're looking at some physical therapy to get her back on her feet. She's 77 and is very active, still mows her own lawn and everything, so that helps. She survived because when the colon perforation happened, the doctors got onto it fast and dealt with it.

If we had commie healthcare, she'd be dead due to all the bureaucracy, reduced quality, and reduced talent. So a hearty fuck you to anyone that thinks we need commie healthcare.


So how does that tie in with socialized health care? i could point to some county guys patching potholes in the road and say 'see? I don't want that happeneing in my diveway.'
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:35:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By captwn1:

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By captwn1:

If people and corporations don't buy the "product" then they won't have health care. They are a captive audience.

Why is it that many doctors are now not accepting patients with "insurance", if the product is so good?

The BS is not from the "left". It is from those who have a vested interest in the status quo, namely the HMOs and pharmaceutical companies that have bought and paid for most of Congress. Their business is booming and it will only get better as the population ages.

They want you to believe that only their method of delivering health care is the best. It simply isn't so.


Compared to a single payer system where people will have so many more options? And add to it the single payer is run by unfirable civil servants?

And I would love for you to point to me a doctor that is not taking private insurance patients but is still taking medicare ones.

I personally know 2 doctors who no longer accept patients covered by a large insurance provider. They will treat them for payment up front only. The reason they give is the difficulty in getting promptly paid and the cost of maintaining a staff to deal with the insurance providers. They tell me that many more of their colleagues are doing the same. Perhaps they are lying.

So you think having your medical decisions made by a clerk at Aetna is a good thing?


You are singing the praises of government run health insurance over that offered by private companies.

I would love for you to point to me a doctor that is not taking private insurance patients but is still taking medicare ones.

It should be easy if government run insurance is so much better.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:43:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 9:49:36 AM EST by thebeekeeper1]
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:48:07 AM EST
My main concern is for small business. From what I have read, the plan will most likely require all employers to provide insurance for their employees, we'll see what portion they require the employer to cover, how family coverage shakes out, etc. Then anybody not covered under an employer is obviously unemployed and will receive a subsidy to cover their mandatory insurance. All insurance will be lumped into an "exchange" where the public option will "compete" against the private sector. My employer already pays $8500 a month for 15 employees' healthcare, we'll see if this new mandatory insurance plan is a benefit or a hindrance to small business.

Notice the insurance companies aren't really screaming right now, they are poised to make a killing off mandatory insurance premiums subsidized by the government. The insurance companies will still be around, the government will offer some lame plan, and if you don't have the mandatory insurance you will get fined on your taxes. Sounds great right, that's what we are getting. The only bright spot is seeing the backlash when it all fails.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:48:07 AM EST
My main concern is for small business. From what I have read, the plan will most likely require all employers to provide insurance for their employees, we'll see what portion they require the employer to cover, how family coverage shakes out, etc. Then anybody not covered under an employer is obviously unemployed and will receive a subsidy to cover their mandatory insurance. All insurance will be lumped into an "exchange" where the public option will "compete" against the private sector. My employer already pays $8500 a month for 15 employees' healthcare, we'll see if this new mandatory insurance plan is a benefit or a hindrance to small business.

Notice the insurance companies aren't really screaming right now, they are poised to make a killing off mandatory insurance premiums subsidized by the government. The insurance companies will still be around, the government will offer some lame plan, and if you don't have the mandatory insurance you will get fined on your taxes. Sounds great right, that's what we are getting. The only bright spot is seeing the backlash when it all fails.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 9:58:12 AM EST
I saw on the news that Obama's commie health care will cost ~$6M per to cover each current uninsured person, per CBO analysis of the kennedy bill. LOL
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 10:05:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By captwn1:

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By captwn1:
<snip>

So you think having your medical decisions made by a clerk at Aetna is a good thing?


I'd say it's a damned bit better than having a government bureaucrat make those same decisions.

Keep in mind Aetna doesn't actually make the decision regarding treatment. They only decide whether to PAY for the treatment. If denied we can still get the treatment, but at our own expense. Government-run health care will make it illegal to be treated once denied. You think that's better?

How about we let DOCTORS determine treatment?

In all fairness, we don't know exactly what the terms of the alleged government plan is as it hasn't been determined yet. So, let's keep an open mind.

There is a lot of propaganda from all sides on this issue. Just follow the money.

The bottom line is that we as a nation have a problem when it comes to providing decent health care to all Americans. We need to solve it, and the answers aren't easy.



We can look at where single-payer care has been done around the world and see a failed system. Rationing, long waits, substandard care, etc. No thanks.

The example of MRI machines given during the "Hillarycare" debacle is a good example––three machines in all of Canada, SIX machines in Seattle, WA alone. The machines in Seattle are used as much for Canadians as they are Americans. Why wait a year or two for a diagnostic test when you can drive to Seattle, pay out of your pocket, and get results in a day?

Obama hasn't released details yet (only because he doesn't know yet what he can get away with), but you KNOW what the details will be. Please don't act so naive.

I am not naive. But you are incorrect in your portrayal of other health care systems. You believe the propaganda put out by those who want to keep status quo.

You also need to check your "facts". There are considerably more MRI machines in Canada than 3. (I'll help you...there are 222.)

Tell me something. Do you think that people in America don't have to wait for care in some circumstances? I had to wait 2 months to see a Dermatologist. Is my health care substandard? Rationed?

Have you been treated outside the US? I have. It was very good care. And very inexpensive.

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 10:06:26 AM EST
Originally Posted By captwn1:
The same doctors will provide the same care. They will get paid by the government. The problem with "for profit" healthcare isn't the quality of care, or the doctors who provide it. It is the fact that HMOs and PPOs don't make money by paying claims. They have a vested interest in NOT providing you quality care, and NOT paying your doctor, that is called their profit margin. But at least if they deny you care and you die, you can't sue them, so at least you have that going for you.


The government has a vested interest in denying care as well; it's already broke, and like Canada, England and the USSR, it will save money by rationing.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 10:08:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By Tekka:

Originally Posted By JamesP81:
My grandmother went into the hospital the 28th of May. She was having a fairly routine procedure done; a bypass in her left leg around a blockage. Well, after the bypass was done, she started having breathing problems. They put her in intensive car and hooked her up to a ventilator to help with her breathing. Just when we thought it couldn't get worse, her colon perforated, necessitating another major surgery to correct that. She's finally starting to make some progress towards healing up, but we're looking at some physical therapy to get her back on her feet. She's 77 and is very active, still mows her own lawn and everything, so that helps. She survived because when the colon perforation happened, the doctors got onto it fast and dealt with it.

If we had commie healthcare, she'd be dead due to all the bureaucracy, reduced quality, and reduced talent. So a hearty fuck you to anyone that thinks we need commie healthcare.

Not really, even in nations with socialized health care.They have PRIVATE health care, that the government will interestingly pay for if you go there. o_O So your GM could have gone to a private hospital on say Australia and get the same kind of care she got here. Hell, even in a nationalized hospital, she'd probably get the same quick care when things kept going badly for her.


Countries with socialist healthcare do not always allow a private system to coexist. See Canada, for example, for private care Canadians come to the US (and where will they go when we go socialist?).
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 10:11:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By captwn1:
The same doctors will provide the same care. They will get paid by the government. The problem with "for profit" healthcare isn't the quality of care, or the doctors who provide it. It is the fact that HMOs and PPOs don't make money by paying claims. They have a vested interest in NOT providing you quality care, and NOT paying your doctor, that is called their profit margin. But at least if they deny you care and you die, you can't sue them, so at least you have that going for you.


The government has a vested interest in denying care as well; it's already broke, and like Canada, England and the USSR, it will save money by rationing.

Nice try. A healthy society is much more productive and better for our country in the long run. Rationing is a myth.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 10:13:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By Fender57:
After she got out we began talking about the differences between here and AU. She said the hospital here was like staying at a 5 star hotel. In Australia there's blood on the floors and you can be sitting in the emergency waiting room waiting for someone to help you. It's the emergency room but you still have to wait.

Are you fucking kidding me? I bet your young and healthy and have never been to a US Emergency room. Its a fucking disaster. I was in one four years ago, hunting accident. And just last month my mother was in one when buckets at Ikea fell on her leg (severe lasceration + fractured foot). In my case it was a 4 hour wait and in her case it was 7 hours AND THEN SHE LEFT! the place is clogged with illegals and other assorted scum and hood rats. $5000 just for an ambulance ride. and while you're sitting there bleeding out they grill you and practically waterboard you about your insurance coverage. But thats OK, keep telling yourself our system isn't broken.


Correct, I've never been to the emergency room. Maybe it's the hospital. http://www.advocatehealth.com/luth/

That hostpital is pretty nice. Another one just across town has a full fledge menu like eating a freaken good resturaunt.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 10:15:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:
Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:
Originally Posted By captwn1:

If people and corporations don't buy the "product" then they won't have health care. They are a captive audience.

Why is it that many doctors are now not accepting patients with "insurance", if the product is so good?

The BS is not from the "left". It is from those who have a vested interest in the status quo, namely the HMOs and pharmaceutical companies that have bought and paid for most of Congress. Their business is booming and it will only get better as the population ages.

They want you to believe that only their method of delivering health care is the best. It simply isn't so.


Compared to a single payer system where people will have so many more options? And add to it the single payer is run by unfirable civil servants?

And I would love for you to point to me a doctor that is not taking private insurance patients but is still taking medicare ones.


Many doctors refuse Medicare/Medicaid, but I guarantee NONE refuse private insurance. This guy is a shill for Obamacare/Hillarycare.

You would be wrong. I had to change insurance companies because my cardiologist stopped taking Unitedhealthcare. Their CEO made 1.1 BILLION DOLLARS a couple of years ago. They got into trouble for denying claims 2 or 3 times before paying out. Scum of the earth. Yes many doc's are stopping medicare or medicaid. They have reduced the payments so much some can't even pay their malpractice insurance. There are a lot of different problems in our health system. That's why ERs are just clinics now. We can have the best medicine in the world but if the average J6P can't afford it its worthless. One thing I would like to clear up. ALL hospitals are for profit. They could not be in business if they were not. Some of the most ruthless hospitals are reglious ones. I had to kick a nun out of my ER one time as she was trying to get deadbeats to pay for services. That could get a big gov slap on your head. One note about gov health care. They can say private can compete, but Hiliary care did not allow that. Nor will any other gov system. You can't exclude the best paying from the system and expect it to compete. It will be engineered to exclude private insurance except for the very wealthy. And gov employees. WJ
















Link Posted: 6/16/2009 10:17:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 10:18:24 AM EST by thebeekeeper1]
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 10:19:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By captwn1:
I am not naive. But you are incorrect in your portrayal of other health care systems. You believe the propaganda put out by those who want to keep status quo.

You also need to check your "facts". There are considerably more MRI machines in Canada than 3. (I'll help you...there are 222.)

Tell me something. Do you think that people in America don't have to wait for care in some circumstances? I had to wait 2 months to see a Dermatologist. Is my health care substandard? Rationed?

Have you been treated outside the US? I have. It was very good care. And very inexpensive.



Pay cash and you won't have to wait. Until we have Obamacare, then you will get whatever service the government decides to give you.

The problem with American healthcare is that the tax code drives us towards employeer provided health insurance. Routine healthcare should not be paid by insurance, that's economic insanity. What we should do is revise the tax code and eliminate government health insurance programs like medicare, and put in place tort reform.

The medicare program is crap, and the Donkey Party wants us to hand over the other 80% of healthcare to the people who ran medicare into the ground. Brilliant.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 10:20:48 AM EST
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