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Posted: 5/10/2004 12:43:44 PM EST
From Time magazine...

"Haider Sabbar Abed al-Abbadi kept his shame to himself until the world saw him stripped naked, his head in a hood, a nude fellow prisoner kneeling before him simulating oral sex. "That is me," he claims to a Time reporter, as one of the lurid photographs of detained Iraqis suffering sexual humiliation at the hands of U.S. soldiers scrolls down a computer screen. "I felt a mouth close around my penis. It was only when they took the bag off my head that I saw it was my friend." In the nine months he spent in detention, al-Abbadi says he was never charged and never interrogated. On that awful November night, four months after his arrest, he thought he and six other prisoners were being punished for a petty scuffle.

They were herded into Cellblock 1A. The guards cut off their clothes, and then the degrading demands began. Through it all, al-Abbadi knew the Americans were taking photos, he says, "because I saw the flashbulbs go off through the bag over my head." He says he is the hooded man in the picture in which a petite, dark-haired woman in camouflage pants and an Army T shirt gives a thumbs-up as she points to a prisoner's genitals. He says he was in the pileup of naked men ordered to lie on the backs of other detainees as a smiling soldier in glasses looks on. And al-Abbadi says he was told to masturbate, though he was too scared to do more than pretend, as a female soldier flaunted her bare breasts.


this isnt torture, or even humilation to "soften up" someone for interrogation. This is sexual misconduct, with iraqi prisoners. This is sexual assault. I dont see how anyone can defend a US Soldier who exposes herself to the enemy, orders him to masterbate, and forces another man to orally copulate a prisoner.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 12:47:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/10/2004 12:48:35 PM EST by cyanide]
Oh so now everything that they say is gospel, and the Americans are lying. That concept makes me fucking sick to my stomach.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 12:49:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/10/2004 7:53:50 PM EST by AR15fan]

Originally Posted By cyanide:
Oh so now everything that they say is gospel, and the Americans are lying. That concept makes me fucking sick to my stomach.



They do have photographic evidence of some of the misconduct.





Link Posted: 5/10/2004 12:51:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/10/2004 12:52:56 PM EST by cyanide]
They have pictures
they do not explain everything, they are pictures.
I am not going to say they weren't stupid , but before I listen to a killer of infidels, I would rot in hell.


And one more thing ............. by his own admission, he was scared, and that is part of interrogation. Case closed.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 12:52:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
From Time magazine...

"I felt a mouth close around my penis. It was only when they took the bag off my head that I saw it was my friend."



I especially feel sorry for the friend. YUCK!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 12:53:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By cyanide:
Oh so now everything that they say is gospel, and the Americans are lying. That concept makes me fucking sick to my stomach.



They do have photographic evidence of some of the misconduct.



Yes...

Let's allow the investigation to proceed, and the trials to take place so we can find out what happened, what was embelished (ala the 'He had his hands up when dem officers shot 'im, he had his hands up' scenario so common back here), and so on...

Had the media not gotten ahold of this, it would have been worked out thru the military justice system. There was no coverup, it was under investigation...

Unfortunately, the media got involved, & screwed everything up...
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 12:53:35 PM EST
What fraternities make their pledges engage in these types of "prank"? limbaugh said that the guards were "just having a good time".

'US soldiers abused young girl at Iraqi prison'
7.17PM, Fri May 7 2004


The US military has said it will investigate claims by a former inmate of Abu Ghraib prison that a girl as young as 12 was stripped and beaten by military personnel.

Suhaib al-Baz, a journalist for the al-Jazeera television network, claims to have been tortured at the prison, based west of Baghdad, while held there for 54 days.

Mr al-Baz was arrested when reporting clashes between insurgents and coalition forces in November.

He said: "They brought a 12-year-old girl into our cellblock late at night. Her brother was a prisoner in the other cells.

"She was naked and screaming and calling out to him as they beat her. Her brother was helpless and could only hear her cries. This affected all of us because she was just a child.

The allegations cannot be verified independently but Mr al-Baz maintains psychological and physical violence were commonplace in the jail.

He also claims that a father and his 15-year-old son were tortured in front of his cell.

He said: "They made the son carry two jerry cans full of water. An American soldier had a stick and when he stopped, he would beat him.

"He collapsed so they stripped him and poured cold water over him. They brought a man who was wearing a hood. They pulled it off. The son was shocked to see it was his father and collapsed.

"When he recovered, he now saw his father dressed in women's underwear and the Americans laughing at him.

Mr al-Baz claims the guards at the prison were keen to take photographs of the abuse and turned it into a competition.

"They were enjoying taking photographs of the torture. There was a daily competition to see who could take the most gruesome picture.

"The winner's photo would be stuck on a wall and also put on their laptop computers as a screensaver.

"I had a good opinion of the Americans but since my time in prison, I've changed my mind. In Iraq we still have no freedom or democracy. They are so cruel to us."

The International Committee of the Red Cross has said Iraqis held by US forces have been subjected to systematic degrading treatment, sometimes close to torture, that may have been officially condoned.

The ICRC said visits to detention centres in Iraq between March and November 2003 had turned up violations of international treaties on prisoners of war.

The ICRC, whose reports on prison visits are confidential, went public with some of its findings after parts of the 24-page document were carried by the Wall Street Journal.

The scandal over detainee abuse broke last week with the release of photographs showing the sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib.

US Defecse Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has taken responsibility for the incidents and apologised to the victims, the Iraqi people and Americans.

Link Posted: 5/10/2004 12:54:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
From Time magazine...

"I felt a mouth close around my penis. It was only when they took the bag off my head that I saw it was my friend."



I especially feel sorry for the friend. YUCK!!!!!!!!!



And if that is found to be true.................... then I agree with AR15fan, they were some fucked up people taking those pictures.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 12:54:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By cyanide:
Oh so now everything that they say is gospel, and the Americans are lying. That concept makes me fucking sick to my stomach.



They do have photographic evidence of some of the misconduct.



Would the video of Daniel Pearl, with his feet and hands bound, and his throat getting slit like an animal in a slaughter house present enough photographic evidence of who the REAL monsters are?

Link Posted: 5/10/2004 12:57:03 PM EST
He got a blow job, saw some tities and was encouraged to wack off, that doesn't sounds to bad to me, the BJ from a dude is wak, but it's better than gettin ass raped.

Link Posted: 5/10/2004 12:58:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By DPeacher:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By cyanide:
Oh so now everything that they say is gospel, and the Americans are lying. That concept makes me fucking sick to my stomach.



They do have photographic evidence of some of the misconduct.



Would the video of Daniel Pearl, with his feet and hands bound, and his throat getting slit like an animal in a slaughter house present enough photographic evidence of who the REAL monsters are?




Or the footage of the Italian contractor being executed?

Was what these troops did sexually perverse and disgusting? Yes.

Does it put the United States Army at the same level as the murderous Isalmic terrorists? Be real!
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 12:59:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By DPeacher:
Would the video of Daniel Pearl, with his feet and hands bound, and his throat getting slit like an animal in a slaughter house present enough photographic evidence of who the REAL monsters are?




Naw, that's not as news worth. 'Freedom Fighters' don't have to follow the rules because they are simply defending their homeland, we're evil invaders so we have to be sure not to offend anyone or hurt any feelings.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:01:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:04:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
From Time magazine...

"I felt a mouth close around my penis. It was only when they took the bag off my head that I saw it was my friend."



I especially feel sorry for the friend. YUCK!!!!!!!!!



I think the Iraqis made Andy McNab (Bravo Two Zero author and SAS in Iraq) eat his own shit among other indignities. Not equivocating here but which would be the worse?

Everything will be believed now, with or without pictures and because it will be claimed over and over and replayed over and over it will seem 10 times worse, no matter what it really is.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:08:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By DPeacher:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By cyanide:
Oh so now everything that they say is gospel, and the Americans are lying. That concept makes me fucking sick to my stomach.



They do have photographic evidence of some of the misconduct.



Would the video of Daniel Pearl, with his feet and hands bound, and his throat getting slit like an animal in a slaughter house present enough photographic evidence of who the REAL monsters are?




Or the footage of the Italian contractor being executed?

Was what these troops did sexually perverse and disgusting? Yes.

Does it put the United States Army at the same level as the murderous Isalmic terrorists? Be real!



Nothing the terrorist do justifies us behaving like them, to any degree. We are better than them. we hold ourselves to a better standard than them. Military Police officers are not supposed to sexually assualt anyone. it doesnt matter if its a dependant wife they arrest for DUI on base or a iraqi militia man.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:08:54 PM EST
OH, I forgot that everything that happened is just a big democrat/du conspiracy. They got democrat/du operatives to enlist in the military before the war so they could engage in fake acts of "frat pranks" to discredit the president. Ya, that's the ticket.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:10:31 PM EST
this isnt torture, or even humilation to "soften up" someone for interrogation. This is sexual misconduct, with iraqi prisoners. This is sexual assault. I dont see how anyone can defend a US Soldier who exposes herself to the enemy, orders him to masterbate, and forces another man to orally copulate a prisoner.

[Tom Smykowski] "It's a "Jump to Conclusions Mat". You see, you have this mat, with different CONCLUSIONS written on it that you could JUMP TO.'' [/Tom Smykowski]

[Michael Bolton] "That is the worst idea I've ever heard." [/Michael Bolton]

[Samir] "Yes, this is horrible, this idea.'' [/Samir]
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:10:48 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:14:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/10/2004 1:16:12 PM EST by AR15fan]
My biggest concern/fear is that these US "soldiers" will bring their newly learned job skills and apply hem here. In their on Base MP jobs and their civilian corrections officer and police officer careers.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:17:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
My biggest concern/fear is that these US "soldiers" will bring their newly learned job skills and apply hem here. In their on Base MP jobs and their civilian corrections officer and police officer careers.

Well, relax, I think your safe.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:18:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Nothing the terrorist do justifies us behaving like them, to any degree. We are better than them. we hold ourselves to a better standard than them. Military Police officers are not supposed to sexually assualt anyone. it doesnt matter if its a dependant wife they arrest for DUI on base or a iraqi militia man.



To continue to compare the stupid actions of a few fucked up soldiers to the truely horrible actions committed by muslim terrorists throughout the globe is quite pathetic. The UCMJ will deal with the soldiers in this case, just like it would deal with them if they fucked up State Side. And no, I don't give a rat's ass what the rest of the world thinks about this situation, especially those who danced in the streets on 9-11. Fuck'em.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:20:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
My biggest concern/fear is that these US "soldiers" will bring their newly learned job skills and apply hem here. In their on Base MP jobs and their civilian corrections officer and police officer careers.



That is a very important point. I was going to bring it up when all of this stuff surfaced, but decided to wait until someone else saw the repercussions.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:23:08 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:25:19 PM EST
Aw crap! I guess we should just forget 9-11 and pull out while we can! Oh man, we're bad bad people for doing such terrible heinous things!
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:29:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
My biggest concern/fear is that these US "soldiers" will bring their newly learned job skills and apply hem here. In their on Base MP jobs and their civilian corrections officer and police officer careers.



That is a very important point. I was going to bring it up when all of this stuff surfaced, but decided to wait until someone else saw the repercussions.



Only second in size and importance to the point on the top of your head there pea brain. Do you really think the UCMJ will not be used to the fullest extent? Do you really think ANY of those soldiers will be given jobs in civilian law enforcement? Do you really think the entire US military will return to humiliate you? You heard right. Humiliate. I have YET to see real torture in ANY of those pictures
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:35:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:35:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1:

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
My biggest concern/fear is that these US "soldiers" will bring their newly learned job skills and apply hem here. In their on Base MP jobs and their civilian corrections officer and police officer careers.



That is a very important point. I was going to bring it up when all of this stuff surfaced, but decided to wait until someone else saw the repercussions.



I just looked outside--the sky is NOT falling. I repeat, the sky is NOT falling.



Wait 10 years for the new threads about the "militarization of law enforcement." It will make the current LEO Bashing look like a LE appreciation banquet.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:36:10 PM EST
Yeah...

What's the UCMJ Article for "Being a Fucking Dumbass"? Taking pictures would surely be chargeable under that.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:38:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By DPeacher:
Do you really think ANY of those soldiers will be given jobs in civilian law enforcement?



Many of these national guardsmen and reservist are already cops and prison guards in their civilian careers. Which is exactly why they should have know better, regaurdless of their Army training.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:39:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:44:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By DPeacher:
Do you really think ANY of those soldiers will be given jobs in civilian law enforcement?



Many of these national guardsmen and reservist are already cops and prison guards in their civilian careers. Which is exactly why they should have know better, regaurdless of their Army training.



IIRC...That guardsman (the females babydaddy) is (was) a prison guard and had pending discipline before he shipped out.

As for that LE appreciation banquet, I'll take a ticket. Fish please. No, chicken. Nevermind...I'll take fish.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:46:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Yeah...

What's the UCMJ Article for "Being a Fucking Dumbass"? Taking pictures would surely be chargeable under that.



ART. 134. GENERAL ARTICLE
Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.


Learn more about the UCMJ here
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:49:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By DPeacher:
Do you really think ANY of those soldiers will be given jobs in civilian law enforcement?



Many of these national guardsmen and reservist are already cops and prison guards in their civilian careers. Which is exactly why they should have know better, regaurdless of their Army training.



Do you really think they will have those jobs once they receive felony convictions at their court martial?
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:50:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
My biggest concern/fear is that these US "soldiers" will bring their newly learned job skills and apply hem here. In their on Base MP jobs and their civilian corrections officer and police officer careers.



Yes, that will reflect badly on you as an LEO. Time to figure out a good way to get rid of the bad aspects of the "Thin Blue Line", that is, IF it exists. If it doesn't, no problem, just take some pictures of them doing "evil".

Not really making light of your concern, just illiminating it.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 1:58:02 PM EST
The part that really bothers me,in spite of what the terrorists have done to others,was that the main reason the US gave to the rest of the world to justify the Iraq occupation was that we were going to prevent this sort of conduct that their own government was doing.The fact that any of those idiots chose to photograph it adds an air of arrogance that the US may never live down.As a result,I think I'll take my vacations inside the US from now on...
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 2:12:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Kirkcdl:
The part that really bothers me,in spite of what the terrorists have done to others,was that the main reason the US gave to the rest of the world to justify the Iraq occupation was that we were going to prevent this sort of conduct that their own government was doing.The fact that any of those idiots chose to photograph it adds an air of arrogance that the US may never live down.As a result,I think I'll take my vacations inside the US from now on...



I disagree on one thing. The Iraqi government NEVER planned on a trial, nor was there ever going to be one. The fact that OUR background in the rule of law has caused this to be out in the open (along with a free press) should encourage the Iraqi people (those that think critically and not emotionally) that this evil nature we all have to some extent can be curbed and suppressed. We are not born GOOD anymore than Iraqis are born BAD. Now the press (those with an agenda) will editorialize the hell out of this as meaning we are corrupt, with nothing good to offer, only wanting their oil, (nevermind we could have easily taken Kuwait's)etc. About the only thing we haven't been accused of is trying to make them Christian, but it's early.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 2:37:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By DPeacher:

Originally Posted By AR15fan:

Originally Posted By cyanide:
Oh so now everything that they say is gospel, and the Americans are lying. That concept makes me fucking sick to my stomach.



They do have photographic evidence of some of the misconduct.



Would the video of Daniel Pearl, with his feet and hands bound, and his throat getting slit like an animal in a slaughter house present enough photographic evidence of who the REAL monsters are?




You know you're all alone on this one, or pretty much. The actions of these shitbirds will very likely cripple, or seriously impign on, any future attempts to use american military power abroad. Most americans think of ourselves as the good guys and don't buy that the fact that our enemies are evil scum justifies letting a bunch of undisciplined american vermin torment their captives. We fought the damn nazis and didn't behave like this. Could you picture Winters telling his men "all right then go over and make those Nazis suck each other's cocks and we'll see what we can find out."




Aimless

How much combat experience do you have?
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 2:47:21 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 2:50:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 2:57:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 3:00:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 3:12:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/10/2004 3:18:10 PM EST by viper5194]
cyanide, just so you can see this claims are true, heres a link to some pics for ya....... 11th pic down is the picture the Iraqi describes about his penis near somones mouth..... I also believe i read that the body wrapped up in plastic was actualy a murder, they wrapped him up and put him on ice till they could figure out what to do with him. they then IVd a dead body to make him look like he was alive to try and get him out of the prison for disposal.

www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

These soldiers make me sick and deserve to be treated in the same manner they treated the detainees. And anyone who can say they deserved it are nothing but a shame for the USA.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 3:16:55 PM EST
Gentlemen, please stop stirring the shit over this issue. No one here has even a fraction of the actual facts of the situation. All anyone can do is deal in wild-assed speculation and distortions. Arguing over something that may or may not have happened won't accomplish anything. Remember who you are trusting to deliver this information; it's the same media that so many on here love to bash (deservedly so). Do you really trust them to deliver accurate information free from distortion on any issue? How many times have they been wrong in the past six months? More "thrust per squeeze", anyone? What ever happened to pulling out of Fallujah and turning it over to the Ba'ath party? Remember that giant solar storm that was supposed to knock out electrical systems all over the world? Or how about the massive economic collapse that they have been preaching on for the past two years? Remember how excited they got about Howard Dean? What ever happened with any of this stuff?

Everyone just needs to relax and let the facts come out. They will; that is inevitable. Then, armed with accurate and credible information, you can thrash out all of the issues on this board. Until then, however, nothing can be accomplished by these discussions except to harm the cohesion of this board and possibly harm the U.S. effort in Iraq. All anyone here knows for certain is that some pictures exist of naked terrorists and U.S. MPs. Nothing is known about the circumstances those pictures were taken under or the actual status of the military investigation. By the time this investigation and the court martial hearings are completed, all relevent facts will have come to light. Until then, please minimize the speculation.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 3:41:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Nothing the terrorist do justifies us behaving like them, to any degree. We are better than them. we hold ourselves to a better standard than them. Military Police officers are not supposed to sexually assualt anyone. it doesnt matter if its a dependant wife they arrest for DUI on base or a iraqi militia man.



Have to agree with AR15fan 100% on this.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 3:53:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
My biggest concern/fear is that these US "soldiers" will bring their newly learned job skills and apply hem here. In their on Base MP jobs and their civilian corrections officer and police officer careers.



One of them was a prison guard back in the states. Maybe he learned his "skills" in our domestic prisons . . .
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 3:58:59 PM EST
There were also claims that Jimmy Hoffa and Elvis raped Sadam Husain on a space ship orbiting mars - and more liberals believed that then belived that Monica was giving Clinton head during the missle strikes on the baby food factory ... there are also photos showing men wearing non-US patterned BDU's raping an apparent woman in muslim garb. The Arab web site states that they're Americans ... you liberals probably believe that too

The loudest complains are coming from the liberals here while the veterans of military service are a bit smarter. They know that these people are going to see all the justice that can be metered out. The convicted (reservists if what I hear is true) soldiers will have to spend their sentences (starting next month) in solitary because if one of them gets put into public they'll be in danger.

You liberals really crack me up.

Stir, stir, stir .... in my opinion much of this lands back at the liar in chief old Billy Clinton. I actually attended a fratination courts marshall where the guy though in the Clinton defense when the skipper got done with him there was a smoking hole where a 12 year career and an E-6 Petty Officer use to be. The era of lies and no morals of the civilan world has been brought into the military one which struggles to keep honor, courage, and loyality strong. Concepts that some of you here don't even begin to understand.

These assholes in uniform will be held accountable ... which is more than I can say for our former liar in chief.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 4:02:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

You know you're all alone on this one, or pretty much. The actions of these shitbirds will very likely cripple, or seriously impign on, any future attempts to use american military power abroad. Most americans think of ourselves as the good guys and don't buy that the fact that our enemies are evil scum justifies letting a bunch of undisciplined american vermin torment their captives. We fought the damn nazis and didn't behave like this. Could you picture Winters telling his men "all right then go over and make those Nazis suck each other's cocks and we'll see what we can find out."




We did use torture on Nazis to extract confessions. To my knowledge, we didn't pull this funky homo shit, but we did other stuff. IMO, the worst we did was take away ration cards from wifes/children, putting them at threat of starvation.

Of course, the people doing this back then were basically lawyers in uniform, pretty much military in name only. Then again, the MPs pulling this in Iraq don't seem to be very high-speed, either.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 4:02:31 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 4:03:05 PM EST
PS: I heard the Limbaugh quote which was taken out of context by the liberals here. Have a look at the whole damn thing before completely going off half cocked please. He was talking about the photographs of the ones of the girl pointing at the man naked not of the ones of the beheading, the rape, the use of chemicals agents, the castrations, the burning alive of the prisoners ....
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 4:22:08 PM EST
The "ARMY TIMES" is another cog in the wheel of the democrat conspiracy! Only DU members read that publication!


Bush Circles Wagons, But Cavalry Has Joined the Indians

Jim Lobe


WASHINGTON, May 10 (IPS) - In the old Hollywood westerns, the white settlers circle the wagons to defend themselves against attacks by the Indians until the U.S. Cavalry can arrive to rescue them and chase off their assailants. But in Washington over the last few days it seems that the Cavalry has joined the Indians.

U.S. President George W. Bush, backed by his vice president and national security adviser, have been circling the wagons around Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld since the White House told reporters that the president had given him a mild rebuke over the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq.

But the embattled Pentagon chief may have made too made enemies -- particularly within his armed forces -- to be saved.

While Bush praised Rumsfeld for ”doing a superb job” during a rare visit to the Pentagon Monday morning, his words were somehow unable to overcome the distinct sounds of knives being sharpened in the hallways just outside, as well as across town on Capitol Hill and at the State Department, where Secretary of State (and former army general) Colin Powell compared the possible impact on U.S. foreign policy of the abuse photographs to the 1969 disclosure of the infamous My Lai Massacre in Vietnam.

The big news of the day was that the Army Times, which, along with the major dailies of the other armed services, is published by a private company, called for both Rumsfeld and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Richard Myers, to step down in light of the scandal surrounding the abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad.

''This was not just a failure of leadership at the local command level'', said the Army Times lead editorial, which also appeared in the other service newspapers. ''This was failure that ran straight to the top. Accountability here is essential -- even if that means relieving top leaders from duty in a time of war''. It said Rumsfeld's moves from the outset of the ''war on terror'' had delivered the message to the U.S. troops that ''anything goes''.

The editorial came as new photos documenting abuses -- including prison dogs attacking a naked Iraqi detainee -- were published by newspapers across the country Monday morning, and reflected a growing sense here that the scandal is far from playing out, if only because many of Rumsfeld's -- and the Bush administration's -- critics see the abuse crisis as symptomatic of all that has gone wrong in Iraq and the ''war on terrorism''.

Foremost among these are the ex-military and even active-duty military who have become increasingly outspoken about their unhappiness with the way the war has been conducted.

A number of prominent retired officers, such as the former head of the U.S. Central Command, Gen. Anthony Zinni, and his counterpart in the Southern Command, Gen. Barry McCaffrey, have warned for more than a year that Rumsfeld, in his zeal to ''transform'' the military into a ''leaner, meaner'' global force, was dangerously overstretching the U.S. army, particularly in Iraq.

Top army officers have also made little secret of their resentment of the way Rumsfeld and Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz -- who, like other top Pentagon civilians in the Bush administration, have never served in combat -- dismissed the former Army Chief of Staff, Gen. Eric Shinseki.


Shinseki presciently warned before the war that at least 200,000 troops would be needed to occupy Iraq after an invasion. Wolfowitz denounced that estimate as ''wildly off the mark'', while, in a major break with tradition, neither Rumsfeld nor Wolfowitz attended Shinseki's farewell ceremony where he cautioned against ''a 12-division strategy for a 10-division army''.

What began as the shouts of a few top retired officers when the first Abu Ghraib photos were published ten days ago has now become a veritable clamour. The Army Times editorial is just the latest, if most striking, example.

''Rumsfeld is paying the price for the way he has run the Department of Defence for more than three years, but the price is being paid by George W. Bush'', wrote Robert Novak, a Washington Post columnist whose close ties to the military brass go back more than 30 years.

''From the first month of the Bush administration, I have heard complaints from old military hands -- some in uniform, some not -- that the new secretary's arrogance and insularity were creating a dysfunctional Pentagon'', he wrote in a column that also quoted the private intelligence group, Stratfor (Strategic Forecasting), as concluding that Rumsfeld has ''consistently managed to get the strategic and organisational questions wrong''.

Even more remarkable, perhaps, was the a front-page article Sunday by the Post's veteran military correspondent, Tom Ricks, titled, ”Dissension Grows in Senior Ranks on War Strategy”. The article quoted army Maj. Gen. Charles Swannack, commander of the 82nd Airborne Division in Iraq, as insisting that U.S. forces were winning the war in Iraq at the tactical level but, ''strategically, we are (losing it).''

The article also cited army Col. Paul Hughes, the first director of strategic planning for the U.S. occupation in Iraq, as comparing the situation there with the U.S. defeat in Vietnam: ''Unless we have coherency in our policy, we will lose strategically'', he said, adding, ''We don't understand the war we're in''.

''It is doubtful we can go on much longer like this'', said one unidentified ''senior general'' at the Pentagon who pointed to Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz as responsible for the lack of adequate planning before the invasion. ''The American people may not stand for it -- and they should not''.

Ricks reported that a number of his interviewees had stressed that Rumsfeld and his top civilian aides were the object of a ''profound anger (that) is building within the army''.

That anger may well be responsible for the most significant defection to date among Republican Party lawmakers from the White House line that calls from members of the Democratic Party for Rumsfeld's resignation are politically motivated.

On Sunday, Republican Senator Chuck Hagel, a decorated Vietnam veteran and member of the Armed Services Committee, said in a TV interview on the CBS network, ''It's still in question whether ... Rumsfeld and, quite frankly, General Myers can command the respect and the trust and the confidence of the military,'' given their handling of the prison abuse scandal.

He was followed on the television programme by another more conservative Republican senator who also served in the military, Lindsey Graham. He echoed Democratic arguments, saying he believed the scandal indicated a ''systemic failure'' and that ''we just don't want a bunch of privates and sergeants to be the scapegoats here.''

Their remarks came on the heels of the widely quoted statement last week by a senior conservative Democrat and veteran of both the Korean and Vietnam wars, congressman John Murtha, that the conflict in Iraq was ''unwinnable''.

Murtha, who is regarded as particularly close to the uniformed military and who strongly supported the invasion, has travelled frequently to Iraq since last July.
Link Posted: 5/10/2004 5:18:42 PM EST
I have to admit, I'm doing a 180 on this issue. I tried to feel sorry for the Iraqi prisoners, I tried to say "we're Americans, we're better than this", but I just don't feel that way!

To be completely honest, I'm somewhat bothered by the homosexual undertones of the whole thing, but other than that I don't care. And to be honest, if making them engage in homosexuality breaks their pride, then that's fine with me too!

I haven't forgotten 9-11, I haven't forgotten the Taliban, I haven't forgotten the USS Cole, I haven't forgotten the Pan Am bombing over Lockerbie (even if I can't spell it), I haven't forgotten the pregnant Jewish mother and her 4 children that were gunned down in cold blood, I have forgotten the TWA high-jacking where a US Navy enlistedman was executed, I haven't forgotten Beiruit or any of the other attacks we have endured over the past 35 years!

And don't tell me that this is different! Don't tell me that Iraq had nothing to do with it, don't tell me that Sadaam wasn't tied to Al Queda because I don't care if he was or not! The fact is that a Radical Militant Islamic wheter Iraqi, Iranian, Lybian, Sudaneese, Palestinian, Afgani or any other nationality is a murderous pig-dog that hates America and needs to be exterminated.

This is a war between ideologies, and if we aren't willing to play rough then we are going to lose! I don't care what our troops have to do. I want steaks and I don't care what happens to the cow!!!!
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