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Posted: 1/24/2017 1:42:20 AM EDT


Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:43:06 AM EDT
That's hot. More details needed.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:44:57 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Bushamster21:
That's hot. More details needed.
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The details are, the ATF says fake/engraved 3rd holes = machine gun.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:46:02 AM EDT
they're just trying to stop the MAGA lowers from being made...
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:49:04 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Bushamster21:
That's hot. More details needed.
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Looks closer. There's no pin, just an engraved ring.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:49:16 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By dangerdan:

The details are, the ATF says fake/engraved 3rd holes = machine gun.
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So... it's a pre-op trans-functional semi-automatic to automatic firearm?

They might say that, but until they actually arrest you for it, I don't think they truly believe it.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:50:15 AM EDT
I mean, would it be a machine gun if you did the exact same thing with a magic marker? If not, why not?
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:51:52 AM EDT
What's the thought process on that?
"No one could possibly measure where to drill the hole unless it is marked already"
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:53:07 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By 1Andy2:


So... it's a pre-op trans-functional semi-automatic to automatic firearm?

They might say that, but until they actually arrest you for it, I don't think they truly believe it.
View Quote


ATF has already confiscated a member's finished 80% lower from a well known anodizer's shop after agents who were there on an unrelated matter saw the engraving.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:53:57 AM EDT
Hey cock tease OP, post the dang letter already.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:54:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2017 1:56:09 AM EDT by slims_88]
Fuck all that shit, I am a machine gun!

Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:54:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2017 1:55:18 AM EDT by 1Andy2]
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Originally Posted By RJeff21:


ATF has already confiscated a member's finished 80% lower from a well known anodizer's shop after agents who were there on an unrelated matter saw the engraving.
View Quote


But I take it they didn't arrest anyone?

Sue them for violating his civil rights. Fuck em. MAGA, right?

Sounds like they just committed an ordinary run of the mill theft.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:55:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:56:36 AM EDT
WTF? I'd say I'm surprised, but I think I've figured out that the ATF will always think of something to keep me scratching my head...
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 1:58:07 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Jimbono:
WTF? I'd say I'm surprised, but I think I've figured out that the ATF will always think of something to keep me scratching my head...
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Fuck em. Federal civil rights lawsuits are needed. With jailtime for the individual agents who carried out said policy and the people who drafted and ordered said policy.

And if this chills the willingness of people to apply for employment with the BATFE... so much the better.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:02:28 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By dangerdan:

The details are, the ATF says fake/engraved 3rd holes = machine gun.
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What? Are you fucking serious?
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:04:38 AM EDT
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/708639_Heard-from-the-BATF-today-regarding-seized-Sear-pin-engraving.html
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:04:45 AM EDT
That lower identifies as a machine gun. That is enough to change legal status these days.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:09:57 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By DmacRTCo:

What? Are you fucking serious?
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He is 100% serious, a bunch of us have been talking about it all evening in another section of the system.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:10:19 AM EDT
Gotta do something to show those uppity subjects who's boss.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:18:24 AM EDT
Wow unbelievable.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:18:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2017 2:19:50 AM EDT by kjedmondson182]
This has crossed my mind before.... 80% can't be pre marked out then how could this be gtg?

Other than the whole squeezes per thrust thing that defines a machine gun....but whatever.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:18:48 AM EDT
I really, really, really want to see the letter they're having him sign.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:21:21 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:



Does not make it legal to make said confiscation.
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Originally Posted By Bama-Shooter:
Originally Posted By RJeff21:
Originally Posted By 1Andy2:


So... it's a pre-op trans-functional semi-automatic to automatic firearm?

They might say that, but until they actually arrest you for it, I don't think they truly believe it.


ATF has already confiscated a member's finished 80% lower from a well known anodizer's shop after agents who were there on an unrelated matter saw the engraving.



Does not make it legal to make said confiscation.


Never claimed their actions were legal. Just passing along that they no joke hold this as an interpretation (haven't seen it written out on paper yet) and have taken actual enforcement action against those engraving faux sear holes (in the form of confiscating their property).
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:22:47 AM EDT
Oh FFS.

Fuck the ATF.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:23:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2017 2:30:11 AM EDT by TheTaxMonkey]
I have been informed by the BATF today, that a determination has been made regarding the receiver(s) in question with the sear pin engraving. 
It has been determined a Machine Gun although they have decided that there was no "intent" on our parts in creating one. 
I was told that no marking should be made in the area where the pin hole goes. 
I will be getting a letter from them shortly that I will sign, surrendering said receiver to the BATF for destruction. 

I did inquire why TROY is allowed to do this very same marking, but the agent didnt know, although he did say he'd try to find out. 

Im not in the mood to argue this, bash the BATF, nor hypothesize about why, just passing on the information as it was given. 

My suggestion: 

DON'T DO IT! Not worth the hassle.
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The statue defining a machine gun reads:

(b)MachinegunThe term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
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26 U.S. Code § 5845 - Definitions

For those of you who are unfamiliar with the Troy reference here is a review Tim at the Military Arms Channel did on one of their models which has an engraved sear pin hole.    Take a look starting at approximately 5:50 ish.

If ATF is allowed to get away with this then I would imagine this "process" will be used in the future to cull weapons out of the market one at a time.


Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:23:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2017 2:25:03 AM EDT by boltcatch]
Yeah, well, this is why we have jury trials.

I wonder if this is the ATF trying to see what they can get away with, with the new boss.


Common sense dictates that an engraving is not a fire control hole or any other sort of MG feature. The appropriate answer to this is a good solid "fuck off".
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:25:50 AM EDT
@NoloContendere

Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:28:32 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Mossberg:
That lower identifies as a machine gun. That is enough to change legal status these days.
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An 80% lower IS NOT A FIREARM.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:32:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2017 2:33:56 AM EDT by TheTaxMonkey]
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Originally Posted By SleeperShooter:


An 80% lower IS NOT A FIREARM.
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According to 37thguy ATF is arguing this one is a machine gun and a machine gun is most certainly a firearm under federal law.

ATF has done this bullshit before when going after open bolt semi-automatics which at least kind-of-sort-of was based on a logical argument.   To be quite honest I am shocked ATF has not done this more often with more firearms as the definition of a machine gun can be read to be really freaking broad.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:34:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2017 2:34:55 AM EDT by xviperx420]
The agent that tried to walk out of my shop with a customers firearm claiming THAT was illegal would have a bad day. The law regarding MGs is clear in how they function. That is firearm theft. Theft of a firearm is a felony, and I will treat you as such.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:34:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:37:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2017 2:37:49 AM EDT by TheTaxMonkey]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By boltcatch:
Yeah, well, this is why we have jury trials.

I wonder if this is the ATF trying to see what they can get away with, with the new boss.


Common sense dictates that an engraving is not a fire control hole or any other sort of MG feature. The appropriate answer to this is a good solid "fuck off".
View Quote
I don't know about you but I don't want to have to rely on my attorney explaining complicated idiosyncrasies of firearm technology and law to 12 people who probably don't know anything about firearms past what the government "experts" tell them to save my bacon.

ATF needs to be dealt with and they need to be dealt with harshly.   Rumor is going around Trump is going to push hard to roll IRS into another agency.   I hope the right people have his ear and compel him to act on ATF sooner rather than later.   
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:37:25 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Mossberg:
That lower identifies as a machine gun. That is enough to change legal status these days.
View Quote


Not since last Friday.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:39:00 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By RNB32:
@NoloContendere

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Yeah, if nothing else, he needs this if Watson goes forward for an example of derp.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:43:22 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By SleeperShooter:


An 80% lower IS NOT A FIREARM.
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Originally Posted By SleeperShooter:
Originally Posted By Mossberg:
That lower identifies as a machine gun. That is enough to change legal status these days.


An 80% lower IS NOT A FIREARM.
Depends on your definition of the moment of fabrication.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:49:02 AM EDT
Fucking stupid
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:49:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2017 2:50:40 AM EDT by M4A1]
Funny, these DOJ losers don't inforece illegal immigration, but they pick and choose to enforce gun laws. Fuck em, I don't care anymore.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:50:09 AM EDT
fucking ATF.

I hope trump disbands those assholes.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:51:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:51:42 AM EDT
So what about the FN Military series rifles, are they all considered machine guns now? They have an engraved ring...

FATF!
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:52:28 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat:
fucking ATF.

I hope trump disbands those assholes.
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Someone start the petition on the White House website, if we get enough signatures, Trump has to respond to it.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 2:54:08 AM EDT
Someone needs to crash the Trump Train through the doors of the ATF office and reprioritize (fire), all of it.

what a damned waste of time.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 3:01:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2017 3:03:40 AM EDT by shaggy]
Oh for fucks sake.

Sounds like some nitwit of a field agent knows a little about guns and started running amok with knowing the depth of his ignorance. FWIW, I've had to explain to a BATFE agent what a sear was and what it looked like during an inventory/inspection. Some of them can be just jaw-droppingly stupid.

If I squint real hard and try to image what its like to have a lobotomy, I think BATFE's angle is that because its an 80% there is intent to complete it by using the engraved holes to complete the receiver - including the engraved sear hole. To them, I think 80% means you're going to do it yourself, and if there's a marking for a 3rd hole, they think you must be going to do that too.

Because Troy's receiver is already complete, there is nothing for you to do, so you wouldn't be drilling that engraved hole. Its stupid and makes no sense, but thats my best guess at their inane logic.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 3:04:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/24/2017 3:07:35 AM EDT by boltcatch]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TheTaxMonkey:
I don't know about you but I don't want to have to rely on my attorney explaining complicated idiosyncrasies of firearm technology and law to 12 people who probably don't know anything about firearms past what the government "experts" tell them to save my bacon.

ATF needs to be dealt with and they need to be dealt with harshly.   Rumor is going around Trump is going to push hard to roll IRS into another agency.   I hope the right people have his ear and compel him to act on ATF sooner rather than later.   
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Originally Posted By TheTaxMonkey:
Originally Posted By boltcatch:
Yeah, well, this is why we have jury trials.

I wonder if this is the ATF trying to see what they can get away with, with the new boss.


Common sense dictates that an engraving is not a fire control hole or any other sort of MG feature. The appropriate answer to this is a good solid "fuck off".
I don't know about you but I don't want to have to rely on my attorney explaining complicated idiosyncrasies of firearm technology and law to 12 people who probably don't know anything about firearms past what the government "experts" tell them to save my bacon.

ATF needs to be dealt with and they need to be dealt with harshly.   Rumor is going around Trump is going to push hard to roll IRS into another agency.   I hope the right people have his ear and compel him to act on ATF sooner rather than later.   


And I don't know about you, but nobody is going to stick me into a cell because of an engraved circle.

This is fucking ridiculous. I don't even own anything like this, but this is far over the line into tar and feathers territory.


I've said this before, but the first answer to this is to start shunning people that do this nonsense. Treat them like lepers.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 3:19:56 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By boltcatch:


And I don't know about you, but nobody is going to stick me into a cell because of an engraved circle.

This is fucking ridiculous. I don't even own anything like this, but this is far over the line into tar and feathers territory.


I've said this before, but the first answer to this is to start shunning people that do this nonsense. Treat them like lepers.
View Quote


Those Lepers can ruin your life, and have a ton of power.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 3:20:58 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By basp2005:
Depends on your definition of the moment of fabrication.
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Originally Posted By basp2005:
Originally Posted By SleeperShooter:
Originally Posted By Mossberg:
That lower identifies as a machine gun. That is enough to change legal status these days.


An 80% lower IS NOT A FIREARM.
Depends on your definition of the moment of fabrication.


Not true. If that were the case, then you're implying that I'm going to make that into a firearm. What if I was going to make it into a display piece to hang on my wall with other demilled parts? You cannot infer what my intent was at that time.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 3:30:51 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Jinxsters:


Those Lepers can ruin your life, and have a ton of power.
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Only if you cede it to them.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 3:33:08 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By JVD:
What's the thought process on that?
"No one could possibly measure where to drill the hole unless it is marked already"
View Quote


It's worse

I'm pretty sure most of the engraved pins aren't even in the correct location
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 3:35:46 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By SleeperShooter:


Not true. If that were the case, then you're implying that I'm going to make that into a firearm. What if I was going to make it into a display piece to hang on my wall with other demilled parts? You cannot infer what my intent was at that time.
View Quote


That is the problem with the BATF, it is not you that gets to determine intent, it is them that gets to determine intent, which is why they need to be reigned back in, they have far to much power and can do what ever the hell they want.

Like I said in the other thread, once they determine your intent, it is like being falsely accused of rape, don't matter that you are innocent it still can ruin your life!

With Trump Jr. being such a strong supporter of guns, hopefully enough of us can send letters and emails to catch his attention and get his rear on this issue, we all ready know he has the Presidents ear, he is a very strong supporter of the HPA.
Link Posted: 1/24/2017 3:38:21 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Effenpig:


It's worse

I'm pretty sure most of the engraved pins aren't even in the correct location
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None of the companies I am familiar with engrave them in the correct position, it is just for looks.
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