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11/20/2019 5:07:11 PM
Posted: 7/22/2010 1:08:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 2:26:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2010 2:27:33 PM EST by Screechjet1]
I'm no VBSS expert, but that assualt was fifteen different kinds of fucked up from the word "go."

Underwhelming force invites disaster. At the point that shit was being thrown at the RHIBs, it became a kinetic fight, and the intercept should have been taken over by the surface combantant, not the SOF bubbas. Tracer fire across the bow, with B2B comms and signal flags saying "HEAVE TO OR I WILL FIRE."

I cringed when I saw that the some of the S13 guys were taken below. They were initially defeated in detail, and it was probably only some pretty gutsy action that kept those guys from becoming human shields or worse. Second helo should have providing support by fire to the initial assualt, when it was obvious that things were going badly. The first assualt should have waved off when the IHH swarmed the rope. I would have assualted with a bigger force off CH53s, with the -60s in a overwatch/support by fire/C2/CASEVAC position.

Proper planning prevents piss-poor performance. There seemed to be alot of failure to plan for reasonably probable occurances during that evolution. SOF forces need to remember that no tab, school or beret overrules the basic tenets of physics or time tested tactics.

Those were all pretty nice ships for a bunch of activists, say compared to the Bob Barker. I wonder who is paying for them?
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 2:42:53 PM EST
fuck them. after watching all of this, I regret they didnt kill more of them.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 2:57:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
I'm no VBSS expert, but that assualt was fifteen different kinds of fucked up from the word "go."

Underwhelming force invites disaster. At the point that shit was being thrown at the RHIBs, it became a kinetic fight, and the intercept should have been taken over by the surface combantant, not the SOF bubbas. Tracer fire across the bow, with B2B comms and signal flags saying "HEAVE TO OR I WILL FIRE."

I cringed when I saw that the some of the S13 guys were taken below. They were initially defeated in detail, and it was probably only some pretty gutsy action that kept those guys from becoming human shields or worse. Second helo should have providing support by fire to the initial assualt, when it was obvious that things were going badly. The first assualt should have waved off when the IHH swarmed the rope. I would have assualted with a bigger force off CH53s, with the -60s in a overwatch/support by fire/C2/CASEVAC position.

Proper planning prevents piss-poor performance. There seemed to be alot of failure to plan for reasonably probable occurances during that evolution. SOF forces need to remember that no tab, school or beret overrules the basic tenets of physics or time tested tactics.

Those were all pretty nice ships for a bunch of activists, say compared to the Bob Barker. I wonder who is paying for them?

From a PR standpoint the Israelis were fucked from the get-go. If they used the force necessary to accomplish their mission they would have ended up shooting "unarmed" activists. By using non-lethal force they look impotent.


Link Posted: 7/22/2010 3:00:11 PM EST
Can somebody define Zionist for me? Or is it really the same as an unhinged leftie railing against those ever elusive Neocons?
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 3:04:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/22/2010 3:06:19 PM EST by Agent_Funky]
Originally Posted By Fatbert:

Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
I'm no VBSS expert, but that assualt was fifteen different kinds of fucked up from the word "go."

Underwhelming force invites disaster. At the point that shit was being thrown at the RHIBs, it became a kinetic fight, and the intercept should have been taken over by the surface combantant, not the SOF bubbas. Tracer fire across the bow, with B2B comms and signal flags saying "HEAVE TO OR I WILL FIRE."

I cringed when I saw that the some of the S13 guys were taken below. They were initially defeated in detail, and it was probably only some pretty gutsy action that kept those guys from becoming human shields or worse. Second helo should have providing support by fire to the initial assualt, when it was obvious that things were going badly. The first assualt should have waved off when the IHH swarmed the rope. I would have assualted with a bigger force off CH53s, with the -60s in a overwatch/support by fire/C2/CASEVAC position.

Proper planning prevents piss-poor performance. There seemed to be alot of failure to plan for reasonably probable occurances during that evolution. SOF forces need to remember that no tab, school or beret overrules the basic tenets of physics or time tested tactics.

Those were all pretty nice ships for a bunch of activists, say compared to the Bob Barker. I wonder who is paying for them?

From a PR standpoint the Israelis were fucked from the get-go. If they used the force necessary to accomplish their mission they would have ended up shooting "unarmed" activists. By using non-lethal force they look impotent.




Yep..... poor choice to act in the way they did from a PR perspective. Unfortunately the consequences for Israel were that they received widespread condemnation as a result. it became a PR victory for those that oppose Israeli action in Gaza.

Was it possible for them to deal with the situation in a different manner?
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 3:16:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By Subnet:
Can somebody define Zionist for me? Or is it really the same as an unhinged leftie railing against those ever elusive Neocons?


I don't know any dictionary defintion, but the usage I've seen indicates that

"Zionism refers to beliefs and actions that expand the territory of the state of Israel with little or no concern for the impact on others not making the policy"

I just wrote that, and didn't copy/paste or anything else. That's my personal interpretation of the word. But like many pejoratives, it often means whatever the speaker wants it to mean.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 3:18:07 PM EST

- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews––this is God's own truth."

Link Posted: 7/22/2010 4:05:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By LePew:
Originally Posted By Subnet:
Can somebody define Zionist for me? Or is it really the same as an unhinged leftie railing against those ever elusive Neocons?


I don't know any dictionary defintion, but the usage I've seen indicates that

"Zionism refers to beliefs and actions that expand the territory of the state of Israel with little or no concern for the impact on others not making the policy"

I just wrote that, and didn't copy/paste or anything else. That's my personal interpretation of the word. But like many pejoratives, it often means whatever the speaker wants it to mean.


A man named Theodor Herzl was the father of Zionism - the idea that the Jewish people had to have their own separate nation state to be secure.

Some of the original Bolsheviks supposedly started out as Zionists - they believed that Southern Russia was the proper place for a Jewish state. Trotsky was supposedly a Zionist before he was a Communist, but that's dusputed.
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 4:08:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By Fatbert:

Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
I'm no VBSS expert, but that assualt was fifteen different kinds of fucked up from the word "go."

Underwhelming force invites disaster. At the point that shit was being thrown at the RHIBs, it became a kinetic fight, and the intercept should have been taken over by the surface combantant, not the SOF bubbas. Tracer fire across the bow, with B2B comms and signal flags saying "HEAVE TO OR I WILL FIRE."

I cringed when I saw that the some of the S13 guys were taken below. They were initially defeated in detail, and it was probably only some pretty gutsy action that kept those guys from becoming human shields or worse. Second helo should have providing support by fire to the initial assualt, when it was obvious that things were going badly. The first assualt should have waved off when the IHH swarmed the rope. I would have assualted with a bigger force off CH53s, with the -60s in a overwatch/support by fire/C2/CASEVAC position.

Proper planning prevents piss-poor performance. There seemed to be alot of failure to plan for reasonably probable occurances during that evolution. SOF forces need to remember that no tab, school or beret overrules the basic tenets of physics or time tested tactics.

Those were all pretty nice ships for a bunch of activists, say compared to the Bob Barker. I wonder who is paying for them?

From a PR standpoint the Israelis were fucked from the get-go. If they used the force necessary to accomplish their mission they would have ended up shooting "unarmed" activists. By using non-lethal force they look impotent.




Yep..... poor choice to act in the way they did from a PR perspective. Unfortunately the consequences for Israel were that they received widespread condemnation as a result. it became a PR victory for those that oppose Israeli action in Gaza.

Was it possible for them to deal with the situation in a different manner?

Contrary to popular tin foil wearing belief - Israel SUCKS at PR.

I mean, their secret cabal of Jewish moles in the media suck....
Link Posted: 7/22/2010 4:12:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By Subnet:
Can somebody define Zionist for me? Or is it really the same as an unhinged leftie railing against those ever elusive Neocons?


Zionist: anybody who doesn't agree that all Jews should be killed.

Link Posted: 7/22/2010 4:17:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 7:12:30 AM EST
Originally Posted By Fatbert:

Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
I'm no VBSS expert, but that assualt was fifteen different kinds of fucked up from the word "go."

Underwhelming force invites disaster. At the point that shit was being thrown at the RHIBs, it became a kinetic fight, and the intercept should have been taken over by the surface combantant, not the SOF bubbas. Tracer fire across the bow, with B2B comms and signal flags saying "HEAVE TO OR I WILL FIRE."

I cringed when I saw that the some of the S13 guys were taken below. They were initially defeated in detail, and it was probably only some pretty gutsy action that kept those guys from becoming human shields or worse. Second helo should have providing support by fire to the initial assualt, when it was obvious that things were going badly. The first assualt should have waved off when the IHH swarmed the rope. I would have assualted with a bigger force off CH53s, with the -60s in a overwatch/support by fire/C2/CASEVAC position.

Proper planning prevents piss-poor performance. There seemed to be alot of failure to plan for reasonably probable occurances during that evolution. SOF forces need to remember that no tab, school or beret overrules the basic tenets of physics or time tested tactics.

Those were all pretty nice ships for a bunch of activists, say compared to the Bob Barker. I wonder who is paying for them?

From a PR standpoint the Israelis were fucked from the get-go. If they used the force necessary to accomplish their mission they would have ended up shooting "unarmed" activists. By using non-lethal force they look impotent.




IF you're always going to lose, then don't play the PR game.
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 7:28:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 7:36:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paul:
Originally Posted By Screechjet1:
I'm no VBSS expert, but that assualt was fifteen different kinds of fucked up from the word "go."


Agreed - no advantage in surprise, numbers, or terrain. The only thing left was to raise the level of violence to compensate. Like urban warfare without the protection of armor nor the ability to retreat close quarters aboard ship is really tough. Avoiding it would have been as simple as your suggestions - some small arms fire or if that didn't work some 20mm from a warship would have stopped the ships.

For the public relations propaganda there's not much of a winning spin you can put on this except to have the public media present at the time to witness the whole event and possibly give you a more level playing field.

But that's only going to work if you have the advantages which you listed (surprise, numbers, terrain).

They didn't call the media because they weren't 100% sure that it would be a success and (wisely) didn't want to get butt-fucked on national TV.

I wonder why the Israelis even felt the need to board the ship? Why couldn't they have stopped it with one of their missile or patrol boats and either turned it away or directed it to dock at Haifa?
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 7:50:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By Makarov92:

- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews––this is God's own truth."




You know that eveything Dr. KIng said wasn't brilliant .... in fact this quote is about as stupid as someone like Al Sharpton saying blacks can't be racists.
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 8:19:33 AM EST
The terrorists have always been using human shields for propaganda purposes, that's how they get the sympathy of the uninformed idiots worldwide.

Link Posted: 7/23/2010 9:02:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By LoneCoyoteHunter:
Originally Posted By Makarov92:

- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews––this is God's own truth."




You know that eveything Dr. KIng said wasn't brilliant .... in fact this quote is about as stupid as someone like Al Sharpton saying blacks can't be racists.

Smarter than your quotes.
And nice redirect.
Funny, you and Sharpton say a lot of the same stuff concerning Israel. Do you really want to bring him into the conversation?

Link Posted: 7/23/2010 9:07:04 AM EST
Notice the nice 9-11 comments they made...
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 9:19:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/23/2010 9:32:46 AM EST by Harvey041]
Wow, they should of went full auto the moment they were attacked after fast roping onto the ship. I definitely would not have been just firing at the their feet.
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 11:28:01 AM EST
I can't help but wonder if any of the wounded terrorists, er, I mean activists that were treated in Israel received blood transfusions. If so, I wonder how they feel about that.



Link Posted: 7/23/2010 11:32:03 AM EST
Anti Zionists:

Do you believe that the nation of Isreal should exist? If so, should the borders be roughly where they are?

If not, why not?
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 11:40:44 AM EST
In before Vito!

Oh wait..
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 11:46:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By ttushooter:
In before Vito!

Oh wait..


Don't fret - we still have plenty of "joo" haters in GD....
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 12:37:01 PM EST
Originally Posted By Hoodooman:
Originally Posted By ttushooter:
In before Vito!

Oh wait..


Don't fret - we still have plenty of "joo" haters in GD....


Ain't no shortage of 'em, that's for sure!

Link Posted: 7/23/2010 3:17:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By Deadeye_Jack:
Originally Posted By Hoodooman:
Originally Posted By ttushooter:
In before Vito!

Oh wait..


Don't fret - we still have plenty of "joo" haters in GD....


Ain't no shortage of 'em, that's for sure!



I'm sure there are some but there a lot of people who throw that label around in any discussion that critcizes the government of Israel. Obvious 88'ers are a pretty clear example of folks who deserve that label.

Israel is not the same as nor is it a subset of Judaism.

You yourself may see the distinction, but not everyone does.

Even Israeli citizens criticize their government; are they thus anti-Semitic? I think not. But some folks here would say they were if they knew only of the criticism and not the citizenship of the criticizers.


Link Posted: 7/23/2010 5:44:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By LePew:
Originally Posted By Deadeye_Jack:
Originally Posted By Hoodooman:
Originally Posted By ttushooter:
In before Vito!

Oh wait..


Don't fret - we still have plenty of "joo" haters in GD....


Ain't no shortage of 'em, that's for sure!



I'm sure there are some but there a lot of people who throw that label around in any discussion that critcizes the government of Israel. Obvious 88'ers are a pretty clear example of folks who deserve that label.

Israel is not the same as nor is it a subset of Judaism.

You yourself may see the distinction, but not everyone does.

Even Israeli citizens criticize their government; are they thus anti-Semitic? I think not. But some folks here would say they were if they knew only of the criticism and not the citizenship of the criticizers.




You are splitting hairs that the IHH doesn't bother to.
Link Posted: 7/23/2010 5:45:47 PM EST
Pass,
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