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Posted: 4/9/2001 2:55:07 PM EDT
Thats the conclusion I came to after the show I went to this weekend.  Just inside the front door I spy what looks like a preban AR-15 with a birdcage flashhider on it.  Guy at the table has about 20 or so rifles for sale of various makes and calibers.  He's asking $1100 for the AR.  Both upper and lower are almost brand new.  Suspicious already,  first thing I did was look and the SN on the lower.  Turns out this Bushy was a post ban, probably made in 1998.  I listen to his line of B.S. about the free floated barrel (it was a standard 20, nothing special) match trigger (not) and all the other "costom" features he had put on it.  

After listening to this guy waste oxygen for a few minutes I descretely point out the obviously post ban SN and tell him in no uncertain terms that he's full of sheet.  Well, he's suddenly at a loss for words and starts to look around nervious and such.  I just walked away at that point.  

Now I think the law in question is complete BS and even though I follow it to the letter myself I have absolutely no problem with those who consciously choose to violate it.  There is a place for civil disobedience.  What's really been knawing at me is that someday he's going to snooker some poor slob kid who's out looking for his first AR.  He'll get ripped off and may get himself into a big legal mess that will haunt him the rest of his life.  People like this give the black magic rifle a bad name.  I saw a post the other day that claimed something like 60% of all gun show participants were undercover LEO's.  HA!  Not bloody likely.  
Link Posted: 4/9/2001 3:08:12 PM EDT
Did it ever come to mind that the guy selling the "preban" was an undercover? "Entrapment" is not in the vocublary of the atf.
Link Posted: 4/9/2001 3:14:59 PM EDT
Actually it will probably be picked up by a
senator's staff member. Anti-gun lawmakers always  brag about sending a probe or two to gun shows with a lucrative roll of cash hoping for someone to sell something illegally.
As soon as one converted post-ban is purchased
the press release stating that illegal firearms
can be purchased easily by anyone at a gun show will hit the press. Of course antis usually hit the tables full of black junk and spend their cash too soon and come home with legal
garbage like AB-10's.
Link Posted: 4/9/2001 3:43:13 PM EDT
Did you ever think that the guy you were talking
to was just some workerlaborerpickitupputitovertheredude that was
told by the owner to watch his stuff while he went to takealeak.

Link Posted: 4/9/2001 3:57:35 PM EDT
 Imbroglio, you are absolutely correct.  BATF makes the majority of their cases by entrapment, then 'turning ' the poor slob into an informant.  If you don't believe me, ask Randy Weaver.   FYI, I was at one time acquainted with several atf agents and would routinely see them at gun shows.
Link Posted: 4/9/2001 3:59:20 PM EDT
HANGFIRE If the serial numbers ...*BURRRRRRP*- ..excuse me...
are post ban with a pre ban upper it doesn't matter who was trying to sell it, just
the... **POOOP**... 'scuse me..- the fact that it was for sale is the problem.
Link Posted: 4/9/2001 4:06:28 PM EDT
speaking of which...here at the tulsa show I had seen a lot of pistols with buttstocks on them, notable to me because I've hardly ever seen anything like that, but I thought attaching a buttstock (maybe even having the lug to do so?) to a pistol made it a SBR short-barreled-rifle in ATF eyes and were thus subject to NFA regulations, I could be wrong but none of the tables I saw these at looked like they had that class 3 or class2 whatever feel to them, mostly old antique junk .22 revolvers.

Also literally a quarter to half of the tables in total were "private dealers" who just so happened to be selling 6 dozen guns that day and happily taking trades, If they were feds there I'd think they'd notice this stuff, or they really just don't care.

I'm not going to be labeled a potential fed for noticing this am I?
Link Posted: 4/9/2001 4:40:53 PM EDT
Beware of the guy at the gunshow who is selling a pistol for cheaper than he just bought it.

i saw this at a florida gunshow. i really believe that he was an undercover. he tried to sell it to my dad, but my dad mentioned that he works at a gunstore (he does sometimes) afterward the "undercover" had to go do something else. he only talked with him as long until that was mentioned.

cautious lib out...
Link Posted: 4/9/2001 4:50:17 PM EDT
Here in Florida there is proposition 12. It is a state law that gives counties the right to limit gun sales among private parties at gun shows. It is my understanding that in some counties it is not being enforced. I see evidence of this by the business as usual trading going on in the aisles. It was basically a feel good law that local agencies apparently have neither the manpower or the inclination to enforce.
On a federal level, the promoters of Florida's biggest gun shows (Suncoast) have told me that the ATF is ALWAYS in attendance at their shows.They primarily are interested in gross violations, but will act on a complaint from an FFL dealer if he complains about a non FFL seller sitting at tables to often with too many guns and cutting in on his profits. The biggest FFL dealer at Florida gun shows is FAMOUS for busting private sellers to the ATF.
Link Posted: 4/9/2001 5:03:28 PM EDT
At the Washington Arms Collectors (WAC) gun show, they passed flyers around warning all members that an Oregon member had recently been arrested by the BATF due to cross-border sales he had made at the Puyallup show.

They do watch.  They might not spot every violation, and might not bother making an arrest even if they do.  But don't kid yourself or blow yourself up [grenade] -- they ARE out there.
Link Posted: 4/10/2001 7:27:21 AM EDT
"Entrapment" would be offering a gun for sale illegally and enticing someone into an illegal purchase. Entrapment is unlawful.

It's lawful for BATF agents to attempt to BUY guns unlawfully. Someone selling needs to know who they're selling to. Most gun shows will run a check for you if you're a private party selling a gun. You're NOT guilty of unlawful sales if you reasonably believe that your buyer is a FFL licensed dealer. (Like he has a table and is a buyer/seller.) But if someone on the floor asks to buy and tells you he's an FFL dealer, you'd be obliged to run a check or have him produce some paperwork.

BATF is swarming gun shows in Oregon these days.

Link Posted: 4/10/2001 7:35:24 AM EDT
If you spot/talk to someone who might be trouble ask him/her loudly:

"Ya'll ain't one a them BATFaggots are ya?"

Could be good for a laugh.


Remember 419 - Never Again!
Link Posted: 4/10/2001 8:20:39 AM EDT
Be very very wary of the ATF!

Excerpts from:

The Right to Keep and Bear Arms
of the
of the


Second Session
February 1982

Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary

...Complaint regarding the techniques used by the Bureau in an effort to generate firearms cases led to hearings before the Subcommittee on Treasury, Post Office, and General Appropriations of the Senate Appropriations Committee in July 1979 and April 1980, and before the Subcommittee on the Constitution of the Senate Judiciary Committee in October 1980. At these hearings evidence was received from various citizens who had been charged by BATF, from experts who had studied the BATF, and from officials of the Bureau itself.

Based upon these hearings, it is apparent that enforcement tactics made possible by current federal firearms laws are constitutionally, legally, and practically reprehensible. Although Congress adopted the Gun Control Act with the primary object of limiting access of felons and high-risk groups to firearms, the overbreadth of the law has led to neglect of precisely this area of enforcement. For example the Subcommittee on the Constitution received correspondence from two members of the Illinois Judiciary, dated in 1980, indicating that they had been totally unable to persuade BATF to accept cases against felons who were in possession of firearms including sawed-off shotguns. The Bureau's own figures demonstrate that in recent years the percentage of its arrests devoted to felons in possession and persons knowingly selling to them have dropped from 14 percent down to 10 percent of their firearms cases. To be sure, genuine criminals are sometimes prosecuted under other sections of the law. Yet, subsequent to these hearings, BATF stated that 55 percent of its gun law prosecutions overall involve persons with no record of a felony conviction, and a third involve citizens with no prior police contact at all.

The Subcommittee received evidence that the BATF has primarily devoted its firearms enforcement efforts to the apprehension, upon technical malum prohibitum charges, of individuals who lack all criminal intent and knowledge. Agents anxious to generate an impressive arrest and gun confiscation quota have repeatedly enticed gun collectors into making a small number of sales — often as few as four — from their personal collections. Although each of the sales was completely legal under state and federal law, the agents then charged the collector with having "engaged in the business" of dealing in guns without the required license. Since existing law permits a felony conviction upon these charges even where the individual has no criminal knowledge or intent numerous collectors have been ruined by a felony record carrying a potential sentence of five years in federal prison. Even in cases where the collectors secured acquittal, or grand juries failed to indict, or prosecutors refused to file criminal charges, agents of the Bureau have generally confiscated the entire collection of the potential defendant upon the ground that he intended to use it in that violation of the law. In several cases, the agents have refused to return the collection even after acquittal by jury.

The defendant, under existing law is not entitled to an award of attorney's fees, therefore, should he secure return of his collection, an individual who has already spe
Link Posted: 4/10/2001 8:21:29 AM EDT
The Constitution Subcommittee also received evidence that the Bureau has formulated a requirement, of which dealers were not informed that requires a dealer to keep official records of sales even from his private collection. BATF has gone farther than merely failing to publish this requirement. At one point, even as it was prosecuting a dealer on the charge (admitting that he had no criminal intent), the Director of the Bureau wrote Senator S. I. Hayakawa to indicate that there was no such legal requirement and it was completely lawful for a dealer to sell from his collection without recording it. Since that date, the Director of the Bureau has stated that that is not the Bureau's position and that such sales are completely illegal; after making that statement, however, he was quoted in an interview for a magazine read primarily by licensed firearms dealers as stating that such sales were in fact legal and permitted by the Bureau. In these and similar areas, the Bureau has violated not only the dictates of common sense, but of 5 U.S.C. Sec 552, which was intended to prevent "secret lawmaking" by administrative bodies.

These practices, amply documented in hearings before this Subcommittee, leave little doubt that the Bureau has disregarded rights guaranteed by the constitution and laws of the United States.

It has trampled upon the second amendment by chilling exercise of the right to keep and bear arms by law-abiding citizens.

It has offended the fourth amendment by unreasonably searching and seizing private property.

It has ignored the Fifth Amendment by taking private property without just compensation and by entrapping honest citizens without regard for their right to due process of law.

The rebuttal presented to the Subcommittee by the Bureau was utterly unconvincing. Richard Davis, speaking on behalf of the Treasury Department, asserted vaguely that the Bureau's priorities were aimed at prosecuting willful violators, particularly felons illegally in possession, and at confiscating only guns actually likely to be used in crime. He also asserted that the Bureau has recently made great strides toward achieving these priorities. No documentation was offered for either of these assertions. In hearings before BATF's Appropriations Subcommittee, however, expert evidence was submitted establishing that approximately 75 percent of BATF gun prosecutions were aimed at ordinary citizens who had neither criminal intent nor knowledge, but were enticed by agents into unknowing technical violations. (In one case, in fact, the individual was being prosecuted for an act which the Bureau's acting director had stated was perfectly lawful.) In those hearings, moreover, BATF conceded that in fact (1) only 9.8 percent of their firearm arrests were brought on felons in illicit possession charges; (2) the average value of guns seized was $116, whereas BATF had claimed that "crime guns" were priced at less than half that figure; (3) in the months following the announcement of their new "priorities", the percentage of gun prosecutions aimed at felons had in fact fallen by a third, and the value of confiscated guns had risen. All this indicates that the Bureau's vague claims, both of focus upon gun-using criminals and of recent reforms, are empty words.

In light of this evidence, reform of federal firearm laws is necessary to protect the most vital rights of American citizens. Such legislation is embodied in S. 1030. That legislation would
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