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Posted: 8/22/2004 8:59:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 9:00:26 PM EST by sick]
well when i saw red dawn with the part where the tanks are duking it out i whas thinking
"man those T-62's are cool hey thats not a M1!"
well to the best of what i have found it whas a Sabra MBT which is a M60 Patton that has been upgradid by the IDF
dont know if i am right but i think i am
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 9:21:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 9:29:23 PM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 3:45:41 AM EST
The thing that bothered me about that scene was not the appearance of the U.S. tank, which I could have believed was an M1, but rather the fact that it was basically stationary. A U.S. tank crew would never sit out in the open in scrub brush and slug it out with an enemy target - the tank would fire from behind cover in a hull down position and would displace (quickly) between each round. And most of all, an M1 would not miss a stationary target from that range - I certainly wouldn't need a smoke grenade to help me put a round on target.

But still an excellent '80s movie!

Dave
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 3:56:02 AM EST


Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:06:16 AM EST
sorry,,,,i'm still rolling in the floor...
battle tactics for armor didnt change until after mid seventies...before then we were still attacking an objective by using a wedge, echelon left or right, light and heavy bounding, and line formation right up the middle in the open. we made a training agreement with our enemy at the time the big red bear and developed test companies to use gurilla tactics with tanks, i was in a CSA company that used three tank platoons (just like IVAN) we personified the term "move shoot and communicate) and then revamped tank manuvering to use defilade and cover more efficeintly. also using the movement of the tank to control coax machine gun fire was changed to have the gunner make a Z pattern through the target area which conserved ammo...as stabilized guns were added to more tanks the whole scene changed from the old WWII battle field tactics where the best shot rode away to "sneak, peak, and pop a round and get the heck behind a defilade and pop up some where else....so, i can believe the tank scene from red dawn because it was probably a national guard tank unit that couldnt hit a barn from inside and the loader screaming "bunk this" and the driver yelling " man, i'm backing up" and the TC saying " hey guys, be quiet,,,26 this is 22 , say again over"!!!with the old coincidence range finders and mechanical ballistic computer...sorry but that scene was pretty accurately done,,,,scarry as hell to think what the survivability was in a 60 series tank compared to an russian counterpart...but even they had to drive up on logs to shoot up hill or down hill because of the low profile of the turret but the choke range finder made them a little quicker on the draw.......just an opinion of an old tread head
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:50:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2004 4:53:39 AM EST by Ross]
The M1 in Red Dawn didn't move anywhere because it was not a tank, but just a prop, made of wood, and with a gun simulator in it. No great tactical revelations, no anything. It didn't move because it couldn't. It wasn't a real tank. That's why all you see is the long distance shot of the thing. 95% of the audience could care less about technical accuracy if it's close enough. The producer isn't going to spend millions of dollars on props, equipment, and technical training to "get it right". It's not a training film, it's entertainment.

As fun as Red Dawn is to watch, don't take it TOO seriously folks.

Ross
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:58:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By king507:
i can believe the tank scene from red dawn because it was probably a national guard tank unit that couldnt hit a barn from inside and the loader screaming "bunk this" and the driver yelling " man, i'm backing up" and the TC saying " hey guys, be quiet,,,26 this is 22 , say again over"!!!



Hehe. I was in the National Guard for a little over two years, but its still funny. How about that Marine Reserve unit in the first Gulf War, one company of tanks annhilated an Iraqi Armored Battalion with zero casualties and no misses (except two, one tanks sights were not zeroed, the had to use Kentucky windage).
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:07:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By king507:
i can believe the tank scene from red dawn because it was probably a national guard tank unit that couldnt hit a barn from inside and the loader screaming "bunk this" and the driver yelling " man, i'm backing up" and the TC saying " hey guys, be quiet,,,26 this is 22 , say again over"!!!



Hehe. I was in the National Guard for a little over two years, but its still funny. How about that Marine Reserve unit in the first Gulf War, one company of tanks annhilated an Iraqi Armored Battalion with zero casualties and no misses (except two, one tanks sights were not zeroed, the had to use Kentucky windage).



Yeah, that unit was out of WA and went with their M1's. The rest of the Marine armor did pretty good killing tanks with their '60's too (I started off in the "Dino's" so I'm partial to 'em though lol)
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 5:49:33 AM EST
On the other hand, you also have the wonderful Marine gunnery demonstration of Task Force Ripper which expended 55 main gun rounds to kill a truck and two armoured vehicles.

Wasn't all bad though. Turned out they were shooting up a Marine convoy.

I always thought the Centurions in Courage under Fire were a pretty decent mock-up. The turbine noise initially threw me, but there was this nagging doubt that something didn't quite look right...

NTM
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 6:02:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ross:
As fun as Red Dawn is to watch, don't take it TOO seriously folks.
Ross



Doesn't that qualify as heresy here?
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 7:09:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By 3ACR_Scout:
The thing that bothered me about that scene was not the appearance of the U.S. tank, which I could have believed was an M1, but rather the fact that it was basically stationary. A U.S. tank crew would never sit out in the open in scrub brush and slug it out with an enemy target - the tank would fire from behind cover in a hull down position and would displace (quickly) between each round. And most of all, an M1 would not miss a stationary target from that range - I certainly wouldn't need a smoke grenade to help me put a round on target.

But still an excellent '80s movie!

Dave



VERY TRUE....However... The point of the scene wasn't to showcase accurate US Doctrine, but to give Powers Booth a heroic end. It's secondary purpose was to show "No-Man's Land" and that there were American forces still fighting.

I agree it would have been cool...matter of fact, a modern remake would probable include a great deal more of the external action...cut scenes of tank and fighter battles, etc.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 7:18:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Manic_Moran:
I always thought the Centurions in Courage under Fire were a pretty decent mock-up. The turbine noise initially threw me, but there was this nagging doubt that something didn't quite look right...


Yes, a very good mock-up that I'm sure just went right over Joe Citizen's head, who didn't know
better. I saw one of them being offered for sale not too long ago - I can't remember how much they
were asking for it.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 8:30:27 AM EST
still laughing.....what about the marines that came to fort knox in 75 (complaining about their commander sinking 4 m48s doing a beach assault at camp lejeune )so they could get some good army training sir....52 tons dont float.....the funny thing is by the 80's when that movie was made i had already driven a T62 and a PT76 amphib track....and i'm sure they were taking joy rides in M113's and M60's since they were observing our training and us theirs.....i love hollywood....been in too many live fire demonstrations with the hill side covered with warsaw pact (smlm) officials...

now the M1....thats a tank....dust wont eat up the blower motors and wear out the final drives...good range finder and sights and a M2 instead of the M85 that you had to pull start like a lawnmower half the time....
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