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Posted: 2/20/2007 9:48:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/20/2007 5:16:58 PM EST by Roland_O_Gilead]
Folks, this is not a reincarnation of the previous ban. We will not be inconvenienced by higher prices and arbitrary cosmetic changes to our firearms. This is an actual ban with no apparent loopholes.



The Bill

It is all contained in this innocuous line:

"`(J) A frame or receiver that is identical to, or based substantially on the frame or receiver of, a firearm described in any of subparagraphs (A) through (I) or (L)."


Just in case you missed subparagraphs (A-C):


`(A) The following rifles or copies or duplicates thereof:
`(i) AK, AKM, AKS, AK-47, AK-74, ARM, MAK90, Misr, NHM 90, NHM 91, SA 85, SA 93, VEPR;
`(ii) AR-10;
`(iii) AR-15, Bushmaster XM15, Armalite M15, or Olympic Arms PCR;
`(iv) AR70;
`(v) Calico Liberty;
`(vi) Dragunov SVD Sniper Rifle or Dragunov SVU;
`(vii) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, or FNC;
`(viii) Hi-Point Carbine;
`(ix) HK-91, HK-93, HK-94, or HK-PSG-1;
`(x) Kel-Tec Sub Rifle;
`(xi) M1 Carbine;
`(xii) Saiga;
`(xiii) SAR-8, SAR-4800;
`(xiv) SKS with detachable magazine;
`(xv) SLG 95;
`(xvi) SLR 95 or 96;
`(xvii) Steyr AUG;
`(xviii) Sturm, Ruger Mini-14;
`(xix) Tavor;
`(xx) Thompson 1927, Thompson M1, or Thompson 1927 Commando; or
`(xxi) Uzi, Galil and Uzi Sporter, Galil Sporter, or Galil Sniper Rifle (Galatz)

`(B) The following pistols or copies or duplicates thereof:
`(i) Calico M-110;
`(ii) MAC-10, MAC-11, or MPA3;
`(iii) Olympic Arms OA;
`(iv) TEC-9, TEC-DC9, TEC-22 Scorpion, or AB-10; or
`(v) Uzi.

`(C) The following shotguns or copies or duplicates thereof:
`(i) Armscor 30 BG;
`(ii) SPAS 12 or LAW 12;
`(iii) Striker 12; or
`(iv) Streetsweeper.


This is not about cosmetics anymore. This is about banning the manufacture of almost every semiautomatic longarm since the Garand. There is no "post-ban" configuration if the ban is on the receiver.

This prohibits the new sale or manufacture of ANY AR-15 rifles, even the neutered California ones. It also includes this gem:

(K) A conversion kit.

(37) Conversion Kit- The term `conversion kit' means any part or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a firearm into a semiautomatic assault weapon, and any combination of parts from which a semiautomatic assault weapon can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

So that means no more lower parts kits and no more builds. This could mean no more collapsing stocks.

Let's not forget perhaps the furthest reaching clause that could be easily abused by a zealous Attorney General:

"`(L) A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General. In making the determination, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any Federal law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.'."



It looks like they learned from the last ban and are trying to cover their "loopholes."

Edit: Someone has mentioned that the (37) "Conversion Kit" subparagraph can be interpreted to ban ALL parts that can be used to build an AR or other banned rifles.

That could mean no uppers, no barrels, no handguards, nothing that could be used towards an AR build.

Not only is this a ban on manufacture but this could effectively "freeze" the configuration of all current ARs. It would also mean a culling of the existing AR's as spare parts would be deemed "conversion kits" and illegal to purchase.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:50:47 AM EST
J and L cover just about every firearm ever made.

Nice of them to just work on the semi autos.......for now......
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:51:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/20/2007 9:52:43 AM EST by fadedsun]
Holy shite.

Sales of M1s will go through the roof.

Is there a grandfather clause? Nah?

Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:53:21 AM EST


Ohhh mannn
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:54:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:54:22 AM EST
No mention of M1A / M14 type rifle.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:54:37 AM EST



the "assault weapons ban" was never about banning "assault weapons" (there is a reason they had to define what an "AW" was, and give a list of specific examples).

the "assault weapons ban" was a nifty way for liberals to ban NEW guns. the AWB banned every real firearm (that was not already covered by the other bans), that had been invented since about 1945.

if they called it the "new guns" ban though, they never would have sold it.



Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:54:54 AM EST
This part really burns me:

and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.

So using a firearm in a sporting event doesn't make it suitable for sporting purposes? WTF? That's some serious 1984 doublespeak if I ever heard it.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:55:38 AM EST
Even the Saiga is on there now.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:55:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Holy shite.

Sales of M1s garands will go through the roof.

Is there a grandfather clause? Nah?



M1A they would say is based on Mini 14 reciver ( which is backwards)
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:56:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
No mention of M1A / M14 type rifle.


But the Mini-14 is there???
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:56:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Holy shite.

Sales of M1s will go through the roof.

Is there a grandfather clause? Nah?



M1s are almost sold out, and if you notice they specifically banned the M1 Carbines.

There is a grandfather clause, but that is small consolation as far as I am concerned. Yes, you and I will get to keep our guns...but what about the future genereations?
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:56:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
No mention of M1A / M14 type rifle.


Actually there is. SAR-8.

And the FAL is covered by the SAR-4800.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:57:15 AM EST
Who's AWB proposal is this?
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:59:15 AM EST
This kills the SIG 556 and the Masada as well guys.

Let's face it. This bill would kill ARFCOM.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:59:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/20/2007 10:01:01 AM EST by lildavid67]
Not the Hi-Point carbine!

ETA: I shouldn't be making light of this. What kind of chance, do you guys think. does this type of bill have to being passed?
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 9:59:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By DarkNite:
This part really burns me:

and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.

So using a firearm in a sporting event doesn't make it suitable for sporting purposes? WTF? That's some serious 1984 doublespeak if I ever heard it.


The purpose of this wording is to insure that AR-15s find no protection under Service Rifle CMP competition rules.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:01:11 AM EST
The real kicker in that sentence is the "sporting purpose" BS. Unless thowing off a tyranical government is a sport.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:02:29 AM EST
Better stock up.

I'm NOT going to sell that ar15 receiver. Hell, I'm gonna stock up.

Are magazines banned too?
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:03:07 AM EST
btt
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:03:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Better stock up.

I'm NOT going to sell that ar15 receiver. Hell, I'm gonna stock up.

Are magazines banned too?


I never understood this logic......
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:04:51 AM EST
I fully expect everyone who posted up-in-arms about Zumbo to write letters against this silly AWB...

If you don't, the "Internet Minuteman" project will have been a waste.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:05:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
No mention of M1A / M14 type rifle.


However, a zealot could use this clause to declare similarity to a Mini-14:

"`(J) A frame or receiver that is identical to, or based substantially on the frame or receiver of, a firearm described in any of subparagraphs (A) through (I) or (L)."

That would eliminate Garands, M1As, and M1 carbines.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:06:21 AM EST
This is precisely the kind of ban we should expect.
I think it will find some substantial opposition in Congress. This law will put several firearms manufacturers out of business entirely, severely hurt the sport of competitive target shooting (more money gone) and damage a large and very profitable sporting arms industry.
For sure, this law is a major goal of the banners, but I don't think the country is "ready" to sign off on it. Remember, the first ban barely made it through by one tie breaking vote and only then because it contained a sunset clause.

No reason for complacency, but I wouldn't push the panic button just yet.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:07:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
Who's AWB proposal is this?


Carolyn McCarthy's.

This is the HR 1022 that everyone is talking about (the one I've been predicting for 4 months). This bill is in the judiciary committee now where there are 14 co-sponsors of this bill the last time it went through.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:08:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By lildavid67:
Not the Hi-Point carbine!

ETA: I shouldn't be making light of this. What kind of chance, do you guys think. does this type of bill have to being passed?


Passed out of committee? High, considering that 14 of the 20 necessary votes co-sponsored this bill last year when the Republicans were still in power. Factor in the new makeup of the judiciary committee . . .

Passed in the House? Good.

Passed in the Senate? With the RINOs we have? Good.

Signed by the President? With the beating he has been taking and his previous statements that he would sign any AWB that crossed his desk, I'd say a fair chance.


What are you going to do about it?
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:08:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
No mention of M1A / M14 type rifle.


"`(L) A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General. In making the determination, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any Federal law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.'."

That should cover it.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:09:57 AM EST
ost
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:10:08 AM EST
There's also a good chance they'll define en-bloc clips as detachable magazines, which means your Garand is now an illegal "assault weapon" as well.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:10:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
Who's AWB proposal is this?


Carolyn McCarthy's.

This is the HR 1022 that everyone is talking about (the one I've been predicting for 4 months). This bill is in the judiciary committee now where there are 14 co-sponsors of this bill the last time it went through.


It seems to have change quite a bit (for the worse) since I last read it.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:11:27 AM EST
Even if passed, it would seem possible to rule it unconstitutional on basis of the void-for-vagueness doctrine.


What constitutes a "copy"?

What about a derivitive?

It creates a large gray area. Does the term "copy" mean an identical version under a different name? Small technical differences? Visual differences? At what point is a design technically no longer a copy of another?

For legislation to be deemed unconstitutional, it must not be proven constitutional, but proven unconstitutional.

This bill seems overly restrictive on the 2nd Amendment. Even with current rulings against the 2nd, I cant see how this could hold up to a legal challenge.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:11:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By RichinCM:

Originally Posted By Gunner1X:
No mention of M1A / M14 type rifle.


However, a zealot could use this clause to declare similarity to a Mini-14:

"`(J) A frame or receiver that is identical to, or based substantially on the frame or receiver of, a firearm described in any of subparagraphs (A) through (I) or (L)."

That would eliminate Garands, M1As, and M1 carbines.


They are all zealots

Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:12:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/20/2007 10:49:21 AM EST by shawn21]
I would suggest everyone getting a good BOLT ACTION precision rifle after they ban semi autos, at least you can still own them, for now........

*edited for ATF's viewing pleasure*
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:13:23 AM EST
Is this the shitstain bill McCarthy has introduced? If so, relax. She'll get treated like the retarded black sheep of the democratic party. I bet dem leaders are already rolling their eyes at her over this.

If there is any new bans, it will be AFTER 2008. They do not want to shake a hornet's nest right now. They have been out of power for 12 years due largely to their previous shitstain AWB. They know this. The majority of them will not TOUCH this right now. They might not even want to touch it after 2008. Gun control has proven to be a loser issue. Very few people will come out to vote for a candidate because they are anti-gun. But a tidal wave of voters will turn out to vote AGAINST someone who is anti-gun.

This bill will end up in the trash can.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:16:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By Desdinova721:
There's also a good chance they'll define en-bloc clips as detachable magazines, which means your Garand is now an illegal "assault weapon" as well.


They would not have to define en bloc clips as detachable. Because the M1 Garand was designed for military use, it would be an AW by default unless the AG decides it's suitable for sporting purposes.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:16:52 AM EST
Who wrote this, when will amendments/changes be made, and most important when will it be voted on?
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:18:48 AM EST
Why dont we make this sticky and try to get the word out.

This thread should be on page 40 by now with people up in arms.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:19:18 AM EST
ATTENTION CONGRESS: NOW HEAR THIS, NOW HEAR THIS.



I don't care what Congress passes. I don't care what law, I don't care what ban. The foundation of this country has written on to it that I have the right to keep and bear arms. Whatever some limp-dicked, barrel-assed Congress weasel tries to pass off as law means nothing past that.

I like to think there are enough people with the stones to stand up to something like this.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:19:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By shawn21:
I would suggest everyone getting a good BOLT ACTION precision rifle after they ban semi autos, at least you can still vote from the rooftop, for now........


I guess you haven't heard about the Brady bastards wanting to go after "sniper rifles" aka bolt action hunting rifles.

www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=548749
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:20:50 AM EST

Although this is a highly dangerous bill and one that should not be ignored - it should also come as no surprise that this bill is simply PART of the effort to reauthorize the AWB.

This could very well be the diversion. The over-the-top "sacrifice bill" that the antis will put forth KNOWING it may be defeated...

All so that they could submit a second or third "version" of an AWB later on that would be a "reasonable compromise" compared to this bastard bill.

IMO, this is not all they're gonna throw at us - this is exactly what it is intended - a massive and intentional over-reach on their part, just so that the Dems in weak districts can vote it down, come home to their constituents and say "I'm not a gun-grabber, look see - I voted this down!"..... and then they can all line up behind the next AWB that is only SLIGHTLY less horrendous than this current one.

Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:22:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By shawn21:
I would suggest everyone getting a good BOLT ACTION precision rifle after they ban semi autos, at least you can still vote from the rooftop, for now........





- Yes, when I decide to become a federal felon and open fire on elected officials, I will, by god, do so with a properly registered and legal type of firearm. I would hate to look like I didn't obey the law.


Perhaps you could take a moment from shopping for the upcoming assassination and just write a letter or two instead?
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:22:50 AM EST
Commies suck.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:24:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By badfish274:
Why dont we make this sticky and try to get the word out.

This thread should be on page 40 by now with people up in arms.


Someone should select the best post on this subject and make it sticky.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:25:07 AM EST
I forget to mention that this bill will also make it a felony to sell someone a grandfathered assault weapon and a 10+ magazine at the same time.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:25:32 AM EST

Originally Posted By Specop_007:

Originally Posted By fadedsun:
Better stock up.

I'm NOT going to sell that ar15 receiver. Hell, I'm gonna stock up.

Are magazines banned too?


I never understood this logic......


A little illustration:

Prior to the last California AWB law taking effect (IIRC, Jan of 2001), people were buying whatever they could get their hands on.

Something like 3% then registered what they bought. Makes sense? No matter what some so-called "law" says, people in general are not going to give up their liberty teeth just because some edomites conspired against them in Congress.

The tyrant loses much of his power when he is ignored. Acquire what you wish before this society goes completely into the toilet. It will be far more difficult after.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:27:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By shawn21:
I would suggest everyone getting a good BOLT ACTION precision rifle after they ban semi autos, at least you can still vote from the rooftop, for now........


I would never consider such a thing, and am required to document this in my T.I.P.S. report, agent Shawn.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:31:59 AM EST
I agree with what The_Macallan said in that this is the big bad bill that will hold the support of the die hards but not all the D's and RINOS.

There will be several versions of the bill as there were in 2003/2004. One will be weak, a middle of the road, and of course this one. The weakest version will likely win, however don't take this big bad bill as a joke. There are those in congress and their supporters who would like to see this pass right now.

Call, write, email your reps immediately if not sooner. Tell them to say no to this!
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:32:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By shawn21:
I would suggest everyone getting a good BOLT ACTION precision rifle after they ban semi autos, at least you can still vote from the rooftop, for now........





- Yes, when I decide to become a federal felon and open fire on elected officials, I will, by god, do so with a properly registered and legal type of firearm. I would hate to look like I didn't obey the law.


Perhaps you could take a moment from shopping for the upcoming assassination and just write a letter or two instead?


Letters arent worth the paper that there written on to the majority of the anti gunners that are in the Govt. Keep writing your letters, and i will keep preparing to defend my rights.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:35:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Throttle-Junkie:

Originally Posted By shawn21:
I would suggest everyone getting a good BOLT ACTION precision rifle after they ban semi autos, at least you can still vote from the rooftop, for now........


I would never consider such a thing, and am required to document this in my T.I.P.S. report, agent Shawn.


If you will not stand up for your rights, you will loose them. Sometimes it takes force to change things.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:35:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/20/2007 10:36:22 AM EST by woodbutcher223308]

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By shawn21:
I would suggest everyone getting a good BOLT ACTION precision rifle after they ban semi autos, at least you can still vote from the rooftop, for now........





- Yes, when I decide to become a federal felon and open fire on elected officials, I will, by god, do so with a properly registered and legal type of firearm. I would hate to look like I didn't obey the law.


Perhaps you could take a moment from shopping for the upcoming assassination and just write a letter or two instead?




Erasing my CC# from the buy me now page.

OPPPS too late.
Link Posted: 2/20/2007 10:35:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/20/2007 10:37:21 AM EST by TheCanuck]
Wow. If this goes trough, and stands in a supreme court challenge, and doesnt include a sunset close, you'll be officially worse off than the brits regarding gun laws.

By teh way, this is a tactic our own anti nut jobs used in the past. they make all sorts of broad demands, make a huge list of guns to ban, then when there is an uproar, they go " ok, how about just the AKs and the AR15s then?" Kinda like bartering, ask for the moon, settle for half of it.
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