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Posted: 8/31/2012 9:51:48 PM EDT
Ok so I was wondering what others thought about the biblical account of Jesus in a more logical sense.  We all know the story. God sends his only son down to earth as a sacrifice to absolve sinners of their sins.  So I want to break this down into three things that bother me about the story and see what others think and what points they have.
1. God sends his son to be sacrificed.  Why?  This is god we are talking about.  He is an all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, omnipotent being who created heavens and the earth.  Is sacrificing his only son the only solution he could come up with?  He could not just have those who sinned plant a tree, build a church, come down to earth and tell people himself to change their ways, do something good for those you sinned against, forgave sinners just because he is supposedly a good guy or ANYTHING else?  Why does he require a blood sacrifice?
2.  Punishing the innocent for the sins of others.  What sense does it make if I commit a crime, so society decides to bring in a completely innocent person to punish for my crime, which then clears me of said crime.  This is what happened to jesus, yet in the end it didn't do any good because we are still all born with original sin so what was the point?
3.  The "sacrifice" of jesus.  How is this even a sacrifice?  He spent three days in hell after which he got to ascend  into heaven for the rest of eternity.  Hell I would have taken that deal.  Seems to me that an actual sacrifice would have been if he had to spend eternity in hell, not just 3 days.

Thoughts
Link Posted: 8/31/2012 10:04:43 PM EDT
Go on...



I agree, it makes no sense.
Link Posted: 8/31/2012 10:34:31 PM EDT
Like any other story about gods, it's a legend. It's not supposed to make anymore sense than Zeus sitting ontop of Mt Olympus throwing lightning bolts.
Link Posted: 8/31/2012 11:40:17 PM EDT







Quoted:




Ok so I was wondering what others thought about the biblical account of Jesus in a more logical sense.  We all know the story. God sends his only son down to earth as a sacrifice to absolve sinners of their sins.  So I want to break this down into three things that bother me about the story and see what others think and what points they have.



1. God sends his son to be sacrificed.  Why?  This is god we are talking about.  He is an all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, omnipotent being who created heavens and the earth.  Is sacrificing his only son the only solution he could come up with?  He could not just have those who sinned plant a tree, build a church, come down to earth and tell people himself to change their ways, do something good for those you sinned against, forgave sinners just because he is supposedly a good guy or ANYTHING else?  Why does he require a blood sacrifice?



2.  Punishing the innocent for the sins of others.  What sense does it make if I commit a crime, so society decides to bring in a completely innocent person to punish for my crime, which then clears me of said crime.  This is what happened to Jesus, yet in the end it didn't do any good because we are still all born with original sin so what was the point?



3.  The "sacrifice" of Jesus.  How is this even a sacrifice?  He spent three days in hell after which he got to ascend  into heaven for the rest of eternity.  Hell I would have taken that deal.  Seems to me that an actual sacrifice would have been if he had to spend eternity in hell, not just 3 days.
Thoughts




1) John Piper wrote a book "50 Reasons Why Jesus Came to Die".  I'm going to post a quote from his first reason.












"God's law demanded "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might" (Deuteronomy 6:5). But we have all loved other things more. This is what sin is-dishonoring God by preferring other things over him, and acting on those preferences.

 









"Therefore sin is not small, because it is not against a small Sovereign. The seriousness of an insult rises with the dignity of the one  insulted. The Creator of the universe is infinitely worthy of respect and admiration and loyalty. Therefore, failure to love him is not trivial-it is treason".










"Not to punish would be unjust. The demeaning of God would be endorsed."



pp20-21

















Jesus' sacrifice acted as propitiation for the sins of mankind. The removal of Gods wrath through a substitute. Why did he require a blood sacrifice? Perhaps because people understand sacrifice. I guarantee the Seals Michael Monsoor saved by throwing himself on a grenade didn't think "Boy what a sucker". They're grateful for his sacrifice that saved their lives. Furthermore his resurrection after death showed the early apostles physical proof of the eternal life provided by God, and that Jesus was the Son of God as He stated.










2)Not every Christian denomination believes in original sin. But for the ones that do Jesus' sacrifice nullified original sin. It's not an issue anymore. But whether or not you believe in original sin, Christ died for YOUR sins.










3)Jesus didn't have an easy death. He was humiliated, beaten, scourged and crucified. It wasn't a picnic. He felt the pain the same as any man would. Crucifixion was the death sentence reserved for the lowest forms of criminals. Here is God made flesh enduring pain and humiliation for the sake of humanity.


 
Link Posted: 9/1/2012 9:10:37 AM EDT
The thing that’s always bothered me is, Jesus was supposedly known as the savior and “King of the Jews” when he was born.  Angels sang, wise men traveled long distances, little drummer boys played and the ox and lamb kept time.  Then he faded into the crowd and lived an ordinary life for 30-odd years.  It seems that no one paid any attention to him for decades.  

Then he pops up, proclaiming his divinity, performing miracles and causing trouble.  Why wasn’t he healing blind men and lepers, walking on water and turning water into wine in his 20s?  

Or could it be that he was just another in a long line of Messianic Jews who threatened the status quo and were executed for it?  Could it be that all the stories of his virgin birth were lifted from earlier mythology?  Could it be that the miracles were made up to attract followers to the new religion?    
Link Posted: 9/1/2012 1:49:45 PM EDT
By conveying the Bible to people . . . we certainly do them a most interesting act of kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced. The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer in whom all the nations of the earth should be blessed – that this Redeemer has made atonement “for the sins of the whole world,” and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy, has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve. The Bible will also [encourage] them with many explicit and consoling assurances of the Divine mercy to our fallen race, and with repeated invitations to accept the offers of pardon and reconciliation. . . . They, therefore, who enlist in His service, have the highest encouragement to fulfill the du¬ties assigned to their respective stations; for most certain it is, that those of His followers who [participate in] His conquests will also participate in the tran¬scendent glories and blessings of His Triumph.

John Jay
Link Posted: 9/1/2012 1:57:48 PM EDT
"The most experienced psychologist or observer of human nature knows infinitely less of the human heart than the simplest Christian who lives beneath the Cross of Jesus. The greatest psychological insight, ability, and experience cannot grasp this one thing: what sin is. Worldly wisdom knows what distress and weakness and failure are, but it does not know the godlessness of man. And so it also does not know that man is destroyed only by his sin and can be healed only by forgiveness. Only the Christian knows this. In the presence of a psychiatrist I can only be a sick man; in the presence of a Christian brother I can dare to be a sinner. The psychiatrist must first search my heart and yet he never plumbs its ultimate depth. The Christian brother knows when I come to him: here is a sinner like myself, a godless man who wants to confess and yearns for God’s forgiveness. The psychiatrist views me as if there were no God. The brother views me as I am before the judging and merciful God in the Cross of Jesus Christ.”

― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Link Posted: 9/1/2012 2:04:53 PM EDT
Perhaps it is true that Jesus never used the word ‘Messiah’ with regard to himself (although I’m not sure that he didn’t) but in John 1, 10 and 14 he identifies himself pretty definitely and more than once. Is there really any ambiguity in his words: ‘I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me?’… In John 10 he says, ‘I am in the Father and the Father in me.’ And he makes reference to being with God, ‘before the world was,’ and sitting on the ‘right hand of God.’…

These and other statements he made about himself, foreclose in my opinion, any question as to his divinity. It doesn’t seem to me that he gave us any choice; either he was what he said he was or he was the world’s greatest liar. It is impossible for me to believe a liar or charlatan could have had the effect on mankind that he has had for 2000 years. We could ask, would even the greatest of liars carry his lie through the crucifixion, when a simple confession would have saved him? … Did he allow us the choice you say that you and others have made, to believe in his teachings but reject his statements about his own identity? [Note that Reagan is using C.S. Lewis’s famous ‘liar, lord or lunatic’ trilemma argument]

I still can't help wondering how we can explain away what to me is the greatest miracle of all and which is recorded in history. No one denies there was such a man, that he lived and that he was put to death by crucifixion. Where … is the miracle I spoke of? Well consider this and let your imagination translate the story into our own time—possibly to your own home town. A young man whose father is a carpenter grows up working in his father's shop. One day he puts down his tools and walks out of his father’s shop. He starts preaching on street corners and in the nearby countryside, walking from place to place, preaching all the while, even though he is not an ordained minister. He never gets farther than an area perhaps 100 miles wide at the most. He does this for three years. Then he is arrested, tried and convicted. There is no court of appeal, so he is executed at age 33 along with two common thieves. Those in charge of his execution roll dice to see who gets his clothing—the only possessions he has. His family cannot afford a burial place for him so he is interred in a borrowed tomb. End of story? No, this uneducated, property-less young man has, for 2,000 years, had a greater effect on the world than all the rulers, kings, emperors; all the conquerors, generals and admirals, all the scholars, scientists and philosophers who have ever lived—all of them put together. How do we explain that—unless He really was what He said He was?

-Ronald Reagan
Link Posted: 9/1/2012 2:29:16 PM EDT
Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires; but what foundation did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force.
Jesus Christ founded an empire upon love; and at this hour millions of men would die for Him.
-Napoleon Bonaparte
Link Posted: 9/1/2012 2:45:17 PM EDT
The answer is in the Bible ,you may find it in Hebrews. Other books explain to.
Link Posted: 9/1/2012 3:04:03 PM EDT
I can't imagine more surprising places for God to appear than a manger or a cross. Yet all through his life and resurrection, Jesus demonstrates the power of showing and sharing God's love. Every time I write a script or a song or walk into the studio, I pray 'Let some word that is heard be Thine.' That's really all that matters.
-Mr Rogers
Link Posted: 9/1/2012 3:13:12 PM EDT
What I read was the fascinating episode which eventually changed my life. On that Sunday while I was in the air over Pearl Harbor, an American soldier named Jake DeShazer had been on K.P. duty in an Army camp in California. When the radio announced the sneak demolishing of Pearl Harbor, he hurled a potato at the wall and shouted, "Jap, just wait and see what we'll do to you!"

One month later he volunteered for a secret mission with the Jimmy Doolittle Squadron –– a surprise raid on Tokyo from the carrier Hornet. On April 18,1942, DeShazer was one of the bombardiers, and was filled with elation at getting his revenge. After the bombing raid, they flew on towards China, but ran out of fuel and were forced to parachute into Japanese-held territory. The next morning, DeShazer found himself a prisoner of Japan.

During the next forty long months in confinement, DeShazer was cruelly treated. He recalls that his violent hatred for the maltreating Japanese guards almost drove him insane at one point. But after twenty-five months there in Nanking, China, the U.S. prisoners were given a Bible to read. DeShazer, not being an officer, had to let the others use it first. Finally, it came his turn –– for three weeks. There in the Japanese P.O.W. camp, he read and read and eventually came to understand that the book was more than an historical classic. Its message became relevant to him right there in his cell.

The dynamic power of Christ which Jake DeShazer accepted into his life changed his entire attitude toward his captors. His hatred turned to love and concern, and he resolved that should his country win the war and he be liberated, he would someday return to Japan to introduce others to this life-changing book.

DeShazer did just that. after some training at Seattle Pacific College, he returned to Japan as a missionary. And his story, printed in pamphlet form, was something I could not explain.

Neither could I forget it. The peaceful motivation I had read about was exactly what I was seeking. Since the American had found it in the Bible, I decided to purchase one myself, despite my traditionally Buddhist heritage.

In the ensuing weeks, I read this book eagerly. I came to the climactic drama –– the Crucifixion. I read in Luke 23:34 the prayer of Jesus Christ at His death: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." I was impressed that I was certainly one of those for whom He had prayed. The many men I had killed had been slaughtered in the name of patriotism, for I did not understand the love which Christ wishes to implant within every heart.

Right at that moment, I seemed to meet Jesus for the first time. I understood the meaning of His death as a substitute for my wickedness, and so in prayer, I requested Him to forgive my sins and change me from a bitter, disillusioned ex-pilot into a well-balanced Christian with purpose in living.

That date, April 14, 1950 –– became the second "day to remember" of my life. On that day, I became a new person. My complete view on life was changed by the intervention of the Christ I had always hated and ignored before. Soon other friends beyond my close family learned of my decision to be a follower of Christ, and they could hardly understand it.

Big headlines appeared in the papers: "Pearl Harbor Hero Converts to Christianity." Old war buddies came to visit me, trying to persuade me to discard "this crazy idea." Others accused me of being an opportunist, embracing Christianity only for how it might impress our American victors.

But time has proven them wrong. As an evangelist, I have traveled across Japan and the Orient introducing others to the One Who changed my life. I believe with all my heart that those who will direct Japan –– and all other nations –– in the decades to come must not ignore the message of Jesus Christ. Youth must realize that He is the only hope for this troubled world.

Though my country has the highest literacy rate in the world, education has not brought salvation. Peace and freedom –– both national and personal –– come only through an encounter with Jesus Christ.

I would give anything to retract my actions of twenty-nine years ago at Pearl Harbor, but it is impossible. Instead, I now work at striking the death-blow to the basic hatred which infests the human heart and causes such tragedies. And that hatred cannot be uprooted without assistance from Jesus Christ.

He is the only One Who was powerful enough to change my life and inspire it with His thoughts. He was the only answer to Jake DeShazer's tormented life. He is the only answer for young people today.

-Mitsuo Fuchida Navy Captain (Japanese; commanded air strike against Pearl Harbor in 1941)
Link Posted: 9/1/2012 4:51:14 PM EDT
Posted by T1nman:
…… either he was what he said he was or he was the world’s greatest liar.

Or he was just another self-proclaimed savior who was followed by people who were perfectly willing to make up stories about him to enhance his reputation and gain converts.

It doesn’t take the world’s greatest liar to attract superstitious and gullible people.  Jim Jones did a good job as did the kook who convinced all those people to kill themselves for a ride on a comet.  There are plenty of people who will accept anything that makes them feel good and never ask for proof.
Link Posted: 9/1/2012 4:55:08 PM EDT
Several hits on target by T1NMAN! Great job
Link Posted: 9/2/2012 2:22:38 AM EDT



Quoted:



Posted by T1nman:

…… either he was what he said he was or he was the world’s greatest liar.


Or he was just another self-proclaimed savior who was followed by people who were perfectly willing to make up stories about him to enhance his reputation and gain converts.



It doesn’t take the world’s greatest liar to attract superstitious and gullible people.  Jim Jones did a good job as did the kook who convinced all those people to kill themselves for a ride on a comet.  There are plenty of people who will accept anything that makes them feel good and never ask for proof.


Why did they need to start a new religion? They were Jews. They already had a religious and cultural identity dating back thousands of years. Why antagonize the power structure which had already killed their leader?

 
Link Posted: 9/2/2012 5:23:30 AM EDT
Quoted:

Quoted:
Posted by T1nman:
…… either he was what he said he was or he was the world’s greatest liar.

Or he was just another self-proclaimed savior who was followed by people who were perfectly willing to make up stories about him to enhance his reputation and gain converts.

It doesn’t take the world’s greatest liar to attract superstitious and gullible people.  Jim Jones did a good job as did the kook who convinced all those people to kill themselves for a ride on a comet.  There are plenty of people who will accept anything that makes them feel good and never ask for proof.

Why did they need to start a new religion? They were Jews. They already had a religious and cultural identity dating back thousands of years. Why antagonize the power structure which had already killed their leader?  


Jeremiah 31:31-40 (NIV)

31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
   “when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
   and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
   I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
   to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
   though I was a husband to[a] them,[b]”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
   after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
   and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
   and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
   or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
   from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
   and will remember their sins no more.”
35 This is what the Lord says,

he who appoints the sun
   to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
   to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
   so that its waves roar—
   the Lord Almighty is his name:
36 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
   declares the Lord,
“will Israel ever cease
   being a nation before me.”
37 This is what the Lord says:

“Only if the heavens above can be measured
   and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
   because of all they have done,”
declares the Lord.
38 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.”

Isaiah 42:1-9 (NIV)
The Servant of the Lord

42 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
   my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
   and he will bring justice to the nations.
2 He will not shout or cry out,
   or raise his voice in the streets.
3 A bruised reed he will not break,
   and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;
4     he will not falter or be discouraged
till he establishes justice on earth.
   In his teaching the islands will put their hope.”
5 This is what God the Lord says—
the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,
   who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,
   who gives breath to its people,
   and life to those who walk on it:
6 “I, the Lord, have called you in righteousness;
   I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
   to be a covenant for the people
   and a light for the Gentiles,
7 to open eyes that are blind,
   to free captives from prison
   and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
8 “I am the Lord; that is my name!
   I will not yield my glory to another
   or my praise to idols.
9 See, the former things have taken place,
   and new things I declare;
before they spring into being
   I announce them to you.”

Hebrews 8 (NIV)
The High Priest of a New Covenant

8 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[b]:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
   when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
   and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
   I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
   to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
   and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
   after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
   and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
   and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
   or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
   from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
   and will remember their sins no more.”[c]
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.


God knew that the Old Covenant wouldn't work when He made it, it was to show us we needed Jesus Christ salvation is a free gift for those who want it.
Link Posted: 9/2/2012 6:59:14 AM EDT
Posted by T1NMAN:
Yet all through his life and resurrection, Jesus demonstrates the power of showing and sharing God's love.

“All through his life”?  There’s about 30 years unaccounted for, isn’t there?  Was he demonstrating the power of showing and sharing God's love in his teens and 20s?  Where’s the scripture on that?  
Link Posted: 9/2/2012 10:19:16 AM EDT
Quoted:
Posted by T1NMAN:
Yet all through his life and resurrection, Jesus demonstrates the power of showing and sharing God's love.

“All through his life”?  There’s about 30 years unaccounted for, isn’t there?  Was he demonstrating the power of showing and sharing God's love in his teens and 20s?  Where’s the scripture on that?  


The Bible tells us that Jesus did many things that are not recorded and if they were it would take many volumes of books.

What has been recorded is what is necessary to fulfill his purpose….”I have come to seek and to save the lost”…..”I came to call sinner to repentance”….”I have the power to forgive sins”…..”I have come that you might have life”….”I have come that you might have Joy”…”I was there for your creation”…I will be there for your judgment”…”If you have seen me you have seen God”….”I and my Father are One”…”Who do you say that I am?”

Your complaint is that you don’t have more information… to go with the information you already reject.
The concealed life of Jesus might hold fascinating stories but his life…..but the reviled life of Jesus brings sinners to his life changing truth.
Link Posted: 9/2/2012 10:32:34 AM EDT
I was involved in the occult and I got burned. I became a cruel killer and threw away my life as well as destroyed the lives of others. Now I have discovered that Christ is my answer and my hope. He broke the chains of mental confusion and depression that had me bound. Today I have placed my life in His hands. I only wish I knew Jesus before all these crimes happened - they would not have happened.

May God bless everyone who is reading this message!

With Love in Christ,
David Berkowitz (Son of Salvation)
Link Posted: 9/2/2012 11:02:32 AM EDT
Christians are ambassadors for Christ. They are representatives from Heaven to this dying world. And because of our presence here, things will change.
My sister, Betsy, and I were in the Nazi concentration camp at Ravensbruck because we committed the crime of loving Jews. Seven hundred of us from Holland, France, Russia, Poland and Belgium were herded into a room built for two hundred. As far as I knew, Betsy and I were the only two representatives of Heaven in that room.  

We may have been the Lord’s only representatives in that place of hatred, yet because of our presence there, things changed. Jesus said, “In the world you shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”  We too, are to be overcomers—bringing the light of Jesus into a world filled with darkness and hate.

Sometimes I get frightened as I read the Bible, and as I look in this world and see all of the tribulation and persecution promised by the Bible coming true. Now I can tell you, though, if you too are afraid, that I have just read the last pages.  I can now come to shouting “Hallelujah! Hallelujah!” for I have found where it is written that Jesus said, “He that overcometh shall inherit all things:  and I will be His God, and he shall be My son.” This is the future and hope of this world. Not that the world will survive – but that we shall be overcomers in the midst of a dying world.

Betsy and I, in the concentration camp, prayed that God would heal Betsy who was so weak and sick. “Yes, the Lord will heal me,”, Betsy said with confidence.  She died the next day and I could not understand it. They laid her thin body on the concrete floor along with all the other corpses of the women who died that day.

It was hard for me to understand, to believe that God had a purpose for all that. Yet because of Betsy’s death, today I am traveling all over the world telling people about Jesus.
- Corrie Ten Boom
Link Posted: 9/2/2012 11:05:35 AM EDT
Posted by T1NMAN:
The Bible tells us that Jesus did many things that are not recorded and if they were it would take many volumes of books.

So, help me understand this:  Nothing was recorded for 30 years.  Then much of his daily life during the short time between proclaiming his ministry and his execution was recorded.  That makes sense to you?  Wasn’t he divine and capable of performing miracles?  Didn’t he see people suffering?  Did he ignore their suffering or did he help?  If he helped, why didn’t anyone bother to write it down?  

Seriously, the Son of God lived in total obscurity for 30 years and then just popped up and revealed himself?  He did nothing worth recording?  That’s your story?

Your complaint is that you don’t have more information… to go with the information you already reject.

The information is, to put it mildly, ambiguous.  There’s a whole branch of Biblical study devoted to chronicling the ways that information has been altered, deleted and added to for centuries.  The original documents are almost never available, but there’s a long succession of documents that contain significant changes.  We can’t trust what we read, because we know it’s been modified.  
Link Posted: 9/2/2012 4:28:31 PM EDT
Quoted:
Posted by T1nman:
…… either he was what he said he was or he was the world’s greatest liar.

Or he was just another self-proclaimed savior who was followed by people who were perfectly willing to make up stories about him to enhance his reputation and gain converts.

It doesn’t take the world’s greatest liar to attract superstitious and gullible people.  Jim Jones did a good job as did the kook who convinced all those people to kill themselves for a ride on a comet.  There are plenty of people who will accept anything that makes them feel good and never ask for proof.


Jim Jones followers committed suicide

The followers/ eye witnesses of Jesus, told others of Jesus being the Messiah and changed the world. all 12 died a martyrs death for a lie.
believe what you want
Link Posted: 9/2/2012 4:42:17 PM EDT
Quoted:
Posted by T1NMAN:
Yet all through his life and resurrection, Jesus demonstrates the power of showing and sharing God's love.

“All through his life”?  There’s about 30 years unaccounted for, isn’t there?  Was he demonstrating the power of showing and sharing God's love in his teens and 20s?  Where’s the scripture on that?  


How do you know he wasn't.
Jesus performed several miracles where he told the person to tell nobody about it.

Matthew 9:28-30
8 When he entered the house, the blind men came to him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.” 29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.” 30 And their eyes were opened. And Jesus sternly warned them, “See that no one knows about it.”
Link Posted: 9/4/2012 5:24:56 AM EDT
John 21:24 It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them,* and we know that his testimony is true.n 25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.


Link Posted: 9/4/2012 9:34:04 AM EDT
Posted by T1NMAN:
Yet all through his life and resurrection, Jesus demonstrates the power of showing and sharing God's love.

Posted By Japle:
“All through his life”? There’s about 30 years unaccounted for, isn’t there? Was he demonstrating the power of showing and sharing God's love in his teens and 20s? Where’s the scripture on that?

Posted by T1NMAN:
How do you know he wasn't.
Jesus performed several miracles where he told the person to tell nobody about it.

Matthew 9:28-30
8 When he entered the house, the blind men came to him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.”
29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”
30 And their eyes were opened. And Jesus sternly warned them, “See that no one knows about it.”

And obviously they paid no attention to him, even though we’re supposed to believe they thought he was a powerful healer and the Messiah.  Right. And that never happened even once in the previous 30 years?  
Link Posted: 9/4/2012 11:20:12 AM EDT
Quoted:
Ok so I was wondering what others thought about the biblical account of Jesus in a more logical sense.  We all know the story. God sends his only son down to earth as a sacrifice to absolve sinners of their sins.  So I want to break this down into three things that bother me about the story and see what others think and what points they have.
1. God sends his son to be sacrificed.  Why?  This is god we are talking about.  He is an all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, omnipotent being who created heavens and the earth.  Is sacrificing his only son the only solution he could come up with?  He could not just have those who sinned plant a tree, build a church, come down to earth and tell people himself to change their ways, do something good for those you sinned against, forgave sinners just because he is supposedly a good guy or ANYTHING else?  Why does he require a blood sacrifice?
2.  Punishing the innocent for the sins of others.  What sense does it make if I commit a crime, so society decides to bring in a completely innocent person to punish for my crime, which then clears me of said crime.  This is what happened to jesus, yet in the end it didn't do any good because we are still all born with original sin so what was the point?
3.  The "sacrifice" of jesus.  How is this even a sacrifice?  He spent three days in hell after which he got to ascend  into heaven for the rest of eternity.  Hell I would have taken that deal.  Seems to me that an actual sacrifice would have been if he had to spend eternity in hell, not just 3 days.

Thoughts


1: God IS Jesus. One way to think of the trinity is this: I am a father to my daughter, a husband to my wife, and a son to my mother. God doesn't have a son in the sense that he boned some astro chick and they made a baby. The Son of God is God in human flesh. He came to Earth to die to show His love. The sole point of the exercise was to demonstrate His love for us.

2: God doesn't punish sinners; we separate ourselves from Him by sinning. He desperately wants us to be with Him but He is not willing to override our free will. All we have to do is freely accept His love. When Christ died, it balanced the account, so to speak. We still need to accept the forgiveness.

3: Jesus was perfect and therefore was not required to suffer at all or to die. That is sacrifice, obviously. YOU (and I) don't have the option to "take that deal." We can choose to be with God or be away from Him. If you don't want to be with Him, that is your choice to make.

Link Posted: 9/4/2012 4:47:24 PM EDT
If Jesus was the Messiah...he was to come an sit on the Throne of David and rule Israel, there is nothing about being a sacrifice for the sin of man.
Link Posted: 9/4/2012 5:18:07 PM EDT
(King James Version)

Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Link Posted: 9/4/2012 8:36:44 PM EDT
Quoted:
Posted by T1NMAN:
Yet all through his life and resurrection, Jesus demonstrates the power of showing and sharing God's love.

Posted By Japle:
“All through his life”? There’s about 30 years unaccounted for, isn’t there? Was he demonstrating the power of showing and sharing God's love in his teens and 20s? Where’s the scripture on that?

Posted by T1NMAN:
How do you know he wasn't.
Jesus performed several miracles where he told the person to tell nobody about it.

Matthew 9:28-30
8 When he entered the house, the blind men came to him, and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.”
29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”
30 And their eyes were opened. And Jesus sternly warned them, “See that no one knows about it.”

And obviously they paid no attention to him, even though we’re supposed to believe they thought he was a powerful healer and the Messiah.  Right. And that never happened even once in the previous 30 years?  


Scripture says that when Jesus was 12 his family traveled to Jerusalem for the Passover Festival (Luke 2:41).  After his family had left Jerusalem they thought Jesus was in the traveling party until they realized he wasn't there.  They went back to Jerusalem, and after three days, found him in the temple sitting among the teachers(Luke 2:42-46). In Luke 2:47 scripture says, "And all those who heard Him were astounded at His understanding and His answers."  Jesus is the Word of God. As John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Link Posted: 9/5/2012 8:10:18 AM EDT
When I was a kid, I broke some of my mother’s best china plates fooling around.  When she came flying into the room, my older brother told her that he did it.  She took off her shoe and wore out his butt.  He knew I was sorry and would not do it again so he took the punishment for me.  To me, that is Sort of what Jesus did not a much larger scale.  He took the punishment for the entire human race.
Link Posted: 9/5/2012 9:14:31 AM EDT
Quoted:
1. God sends his son to be sacrificed.  Why?  This is god we are talking about.  He is an all knowing, all seeing, all powerful, omnipotent being who created heavens and the earth.  Is sacrificing his only son the only solution he could come up with?  He could not just have those who sinned plant a tree, build a church, come down to earth and tell people himself to change their ways, do something good for those you sinned against, forgave sinners just because he is supposedly a good guy or ANYTHING else?  Why does he require a blood sacrifice?


Note God didn't have to do it this way, He chose to do it this way. And he has a few requirements. He has to remain all powerful. He has to remain Just. This method allows him to do it.

See Leveticus 16 for a pictoral form of what happened and think about the symbols.

Some things to note, the blood of Jesus was only necessary to allow Jesus to pass through the veil separating God from Man (flesh). (Hebrews 9)

As in the day of atonment, the live goat carried away sin, not the dead one. It is by the resurrection that sin is taken away, not by death.

Quoted:
2.  Punishing the innocent for the sins of others.  What sense does it make if I commit a crime, so society decides to bring in a completely innocent person to punish for my crime, which then clears me of said crime.  This is what happened to jesus, yet in the end it didn't do any good because we are still all born with original sin so what was the point?


We still bear the penalty for our sins. Your assertion isn't in line with the picture presented.


Quoted:
3.  The "sacrifice" of jesus.  How is this even a sacrifice?  He spent three days in hell after which he got to ascend  into heaven for the rest of eternity.  Hell I would have taken that deal.  Seems to me that an actual sacrifice would have been if he had to spend eternity in hell, not just 3 days.


He spent 3 days in the grave.

Anybody would have taken that deal in hindsight if they neglect the reallly hard part of the 33 years of perfect obedience prior to his death as part of the deal.

Secondly, Jesus went to the cross with only faith that he would come out of the ground.
Link Posted: 9/6/2012 7:48:47 PM EDT
In old texts there were accounts of The Christ's young life that in the Nicene Council, they eliminated from the official biblical text.

The one mention of his possible divinity was when he was 12 and teaching the teachers of the biblical texts of the time. He proved he not only knew them but understood them better than those charged with instructing others about them.

His earthly father, Joseph, died early in life and as the oldest son, the responsibility of his family fell onto him. When he was no longer needed to take care of the family, he started his mission.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; KJV

How do we return to God's presence if none who have sinned may be in His presence?

The Sacrifice, willingly given.

Christ is a title...meaning The "Sacrifice". On earth His name would have been, "Jesus, son of Joseph of Nazareth". When we use the name, "Jesus Christ", we refer to his name and divinity.

His birth, life, and death were foretold from the time of Adam and Eve here on Earth. That is why the special sacrifice of a special lamb on the altar by them in the beginning.

He was known as 'The King Of The Jews" based on his lineage which was direct from King David AND because after his sacrifice he would ascend to the throne of God at his right hand. He was both literally 'of the Kings" on earth and "King of Kings" in heaven.

Now, by Him shedding His blood for all of us, we can now come unto the presence of God based on Jesus's atonement....but only if we accept it. Our responsibility is to accept it and then change our life willingly as he did to do God's will. There is so much more here. This was the intent of the Plan of Salvation for the entire world.
Link Posted: 9/7/2012 3:11:24 AM EDT
His earthly father, Joseph, died early in life and as the oldest son, the responsibility of his family fell onto him. When he was no longer needed to take care of the family, he started his mission.


James was his older brother, by one of Joseph's earlier wives. Mary was a latter wife, also of the house of David. Realize that Jesus was not a poor boy growing up. As being in the House of David, he was in the elite of Israel. His whole family was immersed in getting him to be King and John as High Priest. This is something that can be seen by the history of the times.
Link Posted: 9/7/2012 10:14:32 AM EDT

I just don't think that they were wealthy, or they would have offered a lamb instead of turtledoves or pigeons, as Leviticus clearly states.



Luk 2:22  And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present [him] to the Lord;  


Luk 2:23   (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)  


Luk 2:24   And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.  

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––-
Lev 12:6 And when the days of her purifying are fulfilled, for a son, or for a daughter, she shall bring a lamb of the first year for a burnt offering, and a young pigeon, or a turtledove, for a sin offering, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest:  


Lev 12:7   Who shall offer it before the LORD, and make an atonement for her; and she shall be cleansed from the issue of her blood. This [is] the law for her that hath born a male or a female.  


Lev 12:8   And if she be not able to bring a lamb, then she shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons; the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: and the priest shall make an atonement for her, and she shall be clean.  
Link Posted: 9/7/2012 2:08:04 PM EDT
Actually it makes more sense that he was from a wealthy family. His Uncle Joseph of Arithimea was a tin merchant. Tin was a very expensive metal, rivaling gold, it was in short supply, a lot came from the British Isles, it was necessary to make bronze, tin trade was generally a Royal Commision. Something a member of the Royal family would get.
Now what was a carpenter, he was not the guy with his tools in a cart going job to job. They did not build wooden houses in Israel....it is a desert, wood was imported for the most part. The carpenter made all sorts of furniture, household items, luxury items for the rich...he was a businessman. Upper class merchant for the most part. Constantine wanted someone to give the empire order and the masses hope, Hope is cheap and putting down rebellions is expensive. The masses would never buy Jesus as a rich man, he had to be a poor working guy like they were.
Now why was Christianity created, it existed from the time of Jesus, His brother James headed it after he died.  Now 300 years later, Constantine wanted a religion to unify the empire. Thee were so many religions and holy days, it was affecting commerce. And Commerce was how he made revenue through taxes.  So the Constantine went to the Jews...they weren;t interested, the next best thing was Pauline Christianity, they were tired of persecution, they made a deal. Remember Saul (Paul) never meet Jesus, except by his story, and his contact with the followers of Jesus was persecuting them for the Romans. Oh and there is the possibility that Paul was involved with the murder of James.  Paul had even been murdered before the creation of Christianity.
SO Constantine had free reign to take it and create what he wanted. And he did, to keep the Roman Army behind him, he gave Jesus the Birthday of December 25th, that iws Saturnalia, a holy day for the Roman Army.  He incorporated other pagan beliefs in it, as the Roman Church has done since the beginning. DO you know that many saints are pagan gods and goddesses?
If you use the NT to justify your position, realize that it was commissioned by Constantine, it is a supporting document for him. Go read the Secret Gospel of Luke, banned by the Church, oh and many of the books are of unknown authorship, there is no proof as to who wrote them. They were written in Greek, to a first century Jew, Greeks were hated, look up the Maccabees.
Now if you want to understand Jesus, go learn about the Coptics, read the Gospels of Mary and Tomas. But most of all read the histories of the time, Josepheus, Herodotus and the others, they give you a picture of the time and the life of the Jews, something Jesus was to the day he died. Oh and the Roman were the best at crucifying, they prefered a pole, no cross beam, and they did not nail through the hands, that is impossible to do...so there go the bleeding palm miracles, ain't true and it took days to die on it. If you seek the first century true teachings of Jesus, they are a marvelous thing, the insight was there. Jesus was a gifted person...but much of what we know of him were lies. Just like watching a Movie, based on, but not the truth.
Link Posted: 9/7/2012 7:03:31 PM EDT
that is warped
Link Posted: 9/8/2012 4:38:59 AM EDT
no that is history, just because you don;t like it, is no matter
Link Posted: 9/8/2012 7:29:21 AM EDT
Quoted:
no that is history, just because you don;t like it, is no matter


Cite your sources, please.
Link Posted: 9/8/2012 7:32:32 AM EDT
a book shelf in my library and my nook, Josephus, a few greeks, must be about 20 books, then T*r*h class, undergrad, some undergrad courses in Judiasm, conversations with many scholars and rabbis, about 20+ years of study. Sorry forgot Ralph Ellis, you will hate him, he is an author of many alternative histories.
Link Posted: 9/8/2012 9:17:36 AM EDT
Quoted:
a book shelf in my library and my nook, Josephus, a few greeks, must be about 20 books, then T*r*h class, undergrad, some undergrad courses in Judiasm, conversations with many scholars and rabbis, about 20+ years of study. Sorry forgot Ralph Ellis, you will hate him, he is an author of many alternative histories.



Let me get this straight - You are saying there has been  a conspiracy to hide who Jesus actually is for 2000 years. only the authors of this alternative history know the truth.
is that correct ?
Link Posted: 9/8/2012 3:33:16 PM EDT
You pretty much got it, you realize more people died at the churhes hands than any dictator in the 20th century. The only thing that you ever cite are the NT and commentaries on the NT. I have a shelf full of books, all different. Some I do not buy, others make it clear.
Link Posted: 9/9/2012 7:06:37 AM EDT
What I find hardest to believe is that a man who claims to have shelves full of books and 20+ years of scholarly pursuits could write so poorly and fail to understand the difference between a request for citation of sources and the sentence fragment describing his bookshelf that was produced as a reply.

You will need to do better than that to have a remote chance of credibility.
Link Posted: 9/9/2012 7:17:40 AM EDT
I was actually in a haste when I was posting. Go read Josephus, the history of the Roman Empire, then we will talk.
Link Posted: 9/9/2012 7:29:27 AM EDT
Tell us what Josephus said, please.
Link Posted: 9/9/2012 7:38:37 AM EDT
Josephus is a Historian, it is a long commentary on the history of the Jews. Jesus is in it, actually more of a footnote, only that he was a Jewish preacher. Josephus does reflect the mood of the Roman controlled Jews. He is relatively accurate on the historical events of the times. To understand Jesus, you need to understand the Jews of the times. That will take  time to process all the information. It is as the blindmen describing an elephant, we see our view of Jesus, not the whole man.
Link Posted: 9/9/2012 10:34:54 AM EDT
Link to what Josephus wrote about Jesus

Hardly enough information to contrive the prior comments on some kind of mysterious and forbidden history of Jesus.
The only place that kind of history has any credibility is in ideological classrooms and works of fiction.
The Da Vinci Code is in the bargain bins and landfills for a reason.
Link Posted: 9/9/2012 11:26:51 AM EDT
From Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3:

“Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”
Link Posted: 9/9/2012 2:10:08 PM EDT
Can you give me the information on which translation of Josephus you used. I have been reading freferences that there is a difference in the translations of Josephus. That there are two or three that have the translations you cite, but the rest are different. It also seems odd that he would use the term 'Christian'  in the first century. I would appreciate you with this, I do have to get out my copy of Josephus.
Link Posted: 9/9/2012 3:37:25 PM EDT
Quoted:
Can you give me the information on which translation of Josephus you used. I have been reading freferences that there is a difference in the translations of Josephus. That there are two or three that have the translations you cite, but the rest are different. It also seems odd that he would use the term 'Christian'  in the first century. I would appreciate you with this, I do have to get out my copy of Josephus.


The term Christian was used in the first century Church, The  Book of Acts is estimated to have been written somewhere between 60-70 AD

English Standard Version (ESV) Acts 11:25-26
So Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26 and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.
Link Posted: 9/9/2012 3:44:31 PM EDT
I would rather see a non-NT source, the problem is there was back dating to establish credibility.
Link Posted: 9/9/2012 4:00:20 PM EDT
Quoted:
When I was a kid, I broke some of my mother’s best china plates fooling around.  When she came flying into the room, my older brother told her that he did it.  She took off her shoe and wore out his butt.  He knew I was sorry and would not do it again so he took the punishment for me.  To me, that is Sort of what Jesus did not a much larger scale.  He took the punishment for the entire human race.


Punishment for what?

I didn't break anyone's china.
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