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Posted: 4/24/2001 3:58:26 PM EDT
So often we talk amongst ourselves, our families, and even a wider range about how one day the government is going to go too far with this or that, and the rebellion will start with us at the helm.  

California recently demanded registration of semi-automatic "Assault Weapons" (our beloved AR-15 'series'), and we can presume that someday they may come after our beloved rifles.  They chased after some of the "more evil ones" about 12 years ago, and came back for more.  Then they starting dictating that only certain guns should be sold.  Of course, we will hear many more things in the coming years, as the anti-freedom gun-grabbers come along.

"We only want to register handguns for the safety of the children."
"Semi-automatic rifles have no place in precision hunting."
"Shotguns are fire these large slugs that can go through an engine block like butter."
"There is no purpose for .22 guns, except to train for killing."
"Children under the age of 18 should never touch firearms, look at Columbine."
View Quote

Look at the many states...  NYC, good grief!  Look at Maryland, and the handgun issues there...  And we already covered the PRK.  And who knows what is next.  Remember that California is where Roberti-Roos led to the start of the post-ban/pre-ban item.  

So I pose my question to you...  On the playground, kids draw a line, and dare you to step across that line.  Where is that line for you?  When do you feel that the entire country should stand up, and take... not demand... but take back their rights by force.

Where do you draw that line?  How far is too far with your rights?  When do you personally say that freedom must prevail?  "From my cold dead fingers" is a neat ideal, but when do you act upon that ideal?

Link Posted: 4/24/2001 4:06:54 PM EDT
civil disobedience is an issue here.
just because the law says something doesnt mean i (or a criminal for that matter) am going to follow it. i am harmless until provoked. when the time comes that they try to take the guns out of my hands, it will be a dark day indeed.

if a law is ignored on a large enough scale it becomes impossable to enforce.

edited because i always think of more to say.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 4:07:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 4:15:27 PM EDT
Taking back our rights by force? It's a bit premature. I think we need to get some good public relations going first, convert some to our way of thinking. Try to change the way the general public sees us. Armed insurrection is out of the question at this time in my opinion.

We should ALL become more politically active.
Any gun owner who doesn't vote has NO right to bitch. I'm just as guilty as the next guy as far as this subject goes. I send in my annual renewal to NRA and CRPA and I'm done. I vote pro-gun and try to convince family and friends to do the same.Completely inadequate.

We should be more vocal. I really like the idea of a peaceful show of numbers in the state capital. A few thousand gunowners with a clear agenda and a command structure should get someones attention. We need any protests to be completely organized and orderly.

We need to convince sporting arms owners who don't see the need for military style weapons in the publics' hands that the gun laws can, and will, affect their way of life and recreation. We need their support and they need ours.

We should really push to get kids and families involved in the shooting sports. We need exposure on a national basis that shows that families are brought together by shooting at the range. Safety programs should be strongly emphasized.

These are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many other ways to influence public opinion.

Changing public opinion is the key.

Link Posted: 4/24/2001 4:20:29 PM EDT
With the recent finding of the Supreme Court where they found it constitional(sp?) to arrest somone over minor offenses.  The minor offense that got this case brought before the court was a woman not wearing her seat belt in Texas.  Yep they took her out of her car handcuffed her and took her down and booked her for not wearing her seat belt.  And yes that is usually just a ticket.  I believe this should be the line. It is getting ridicuous.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 4:28:52 PM EDT
Oh heres the site for the story.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 4:33:22 PM EDT
Where do you draw that line?  
View Quote

Door to door confiscation.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 4:38:10 PM EDT
I personally think that we don't need a line. Who cares about registration and so forth, they are not saying you can't own a gun, they are just saying that you have to be registered and you can't own certain types. This would be a good logic to apply to the other "rights" as well. People wonder how we can keep kids from getting porn off of the Internet without infringing on the "high-speed porn downloading" that are clearly granted in the constitution. Simple, a registering program, much like that on guns. People who wanted to see porn would simply apply for "porn user identification cards". They would then pay a fee of 200 dollars, undergo porn training classes, and of course be listed on the porn users website so that people could be sure to keep their kids away from these people. Think of the possibilities if this was applied to everything in our society, we could even do it with religions. Atheists would receive identification cards and pay a non believer fee, they could even wear big A's so that peoples sensibilities would not be threatened by these people. How could that be infringing on their rights, I mean you're not saying that the person can't be an atheist you just want to license them. What could possibly go wrong with that, it never has before has it?
Sorry just ranting.
Seriously the line has already been crossed, many, many times. We just need to stand up and not back down, ever. The biggest help would be to quit being ashamed to be a gun owner, (I know that is probably not true of the people here) but I don't know how many times I have been the only one to admit owning a firearm in a public situation, when others that I know own guns were present.

You hit it on the head Operator, we can do more by changing public opinion than we could ever do in an armed confrontation.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 4:45:52 PM EDT
We all have our own personal lines that have been drawn - I know I do.

Problem is... are we all going to wait until they come to our door and say "hand em over"?

I have said it before on this and other forums - Once we loose our right to keep and bear arms - we loose the tools to preserve our other rights and they WILL be taken as well.

Let's decide where we are going to draw the line corporately - nationwide... if we don't - they will soon be at our personal line and we will either act or surrender.

The Sniper
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 4:58:28 PM EDT
AR15fan,you'd have to draw the line before that.That would be to f-in late.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 5:01:51 PM EDT

 So we should agree, as a group, where the line should be? I'm sure that my line is different from yours. Things that have been law in CA for years, or even decades, would be unacceptable in your or others states of residence. I feel that CA gunowners have been abandoned and villified across the nation by other gunowners just because we choose to live in this state.

We're on our own.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 5:08:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By operator error:

 So we should agree, as a group, where the line should be? I'm sure that my line is different from yours.
We're on our own.
View Quote

no yore not. its just that the revolution has to start befor we can liberate california.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 10:50:17 PM EDT
The catch is that this line is always being moved over time.

When the NFA of 1934 was passed, damned few of those Ithaca "auto and burglar" guns (short barrelled shotguns) were registered.  By and large, the shooting community probably looked the other way at these and illegal mg's in the late 1930's, like people look the other way at post-prebans now.  

Fifty years from now, people may look at semi-auto's as the real deal worth 10 years in the pokey, like machine gun charges can bring now.  Well, at least they still have their two shot over and under fowling pieces.  

How could anyone justify more firepower?  All the rational arguemnets have no effect on people conditioned by six hours a day of network programming or "responsible citizenship."  Yes, I've tried.  

Boil, froggy, boil.  The line will not be moved so far so fast, and the cops will not be breaking down your door.  You will not register your AR when the next GCA occurs, and you won't tell your closest friends you have a semiauto.
The goal post just got moved on you, and your heirs will have to deal with it after the public mindset passed you by.

Link Posted: 4/25/2001 12:44:59 PM EDT
OK, now here's my two cents...

In my opinion we have not reached the line, but we are closer than we have ever been, the PRK has gone fairly close to the edge.  I acknowledge that we do all need to be politically vocal, and this is not a call to arms.  It concerns me that many of our gun-toting brothers are not vocal, and some act as if they don't care, so long as they have their guns already.  We need to speak as one big 80 million voice choir, rather than the current 50,000 different opinions.  But barring that, where should we stand?  

For instance, there was once a point in time, in the mid 1700's, when a group of men got together again and again.  They started the wheels in motion to gain our independence.  They did this, and they knew that it would result in war, and conflict.  Their line was crossed, and tea was not the argument, nor was it a stupid little 3% tax on tea.  There were many issues in this regard, including the removal of the right to keep and bear arms in some of the major cities (Boston and NYC, if I'm not mistaken).

"The Sniper" has a very good point when he says we need to agree as a group, nationwide, about how far is too far.  And then "Operator Error" talks about how lines are different.  But I wonder if there would be some common ground where people would be able to decide it was too far.  

The problem is that "liberating California", as "The Survivalist" pointed out, is that we here in the PRK may be more willing right now, than some in WY, or another state.  Indeed, the gun-grabbers have started to say that instead of attacking at a Federal level, they will work on the state level for the next 4 years (or hopefully more).  

So do we say that when they come knocking on the doors we fight?  "The Sniper" puts it well, in the fact that if we wait, we may be placed in a position to "act or surrender", and most will surrender at the business end of a BATF MP5 or similar instrument of firepower and harrassment.  I regret that the fight will likely be after I have lost my guns here in the PRK, and the rest of the country finally catches on to what is happening around them.  

The major cities, New York, Boston, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and actuall, the entire PRK, have worked tirelessly to take away the RTKBA from the greater part of the population.  In 1999, 33 million + people live in PRK.  That is over 12% of the population of the US (272M in 1999).  Between CA, NYC, MA, and MD, I think we have some 20% of the United States with a serious infringement on the RTKBA.  And your state is next...

I've drawn a few different lines, the line for civil disobedience, the line for active training, and the line for fighting.  The line for active training has already been passed for me, and the line for CD and fighting is the same for me, but while I'm not there, it's close.  The problem gets down to "who is gonna back me up", and frankly, if I don't have backup, I'm not likely to do it either.

"The Sniper" (and everyone else) - In a hypothetical sense, where should that nationwide line be drawn?  Is it based on a particular state, a percentage, or what?  When 20% of our country can no longer buy militia weapons (like the AR or AK)?  Or handguns?  When they demand the guns be given back (already happened in NYC and the PRK)?  

Link Posted: 4/25/2001 12:49:13 PM EDT
OK, it was more than two cents!!!  

Link Posted: 4/25/2001 12:57:10 PM EDT
So often we talk amongst ourselves, our families, and even a wider range about how one day the government is going to go too far with this or that, and the rebellion will start with us at the helm.  

View Quote

Know what worries me???

When hardcore gun owners, namely many people here, think it is TOO "in your face" to create a T-shirt that says...

"Defending YOUR Second Amendment" with a pic of an AR on it.

They don't want to "offend" anyone.

And I'm supposed to think these clowns are gonna be covering my six when the lead starts flyin'????

THAT is what worries me.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 2:20:43 PM EDT
The only action TOO extreme in the defense of rights is no action.

For now, I disobey whenever possible. I attend any and all rallies within my reach, and some too far away for most people to travel.

I call and harass reps, I attend hearings at our state capitol, and I take a NO compromise position on any legislation that can effect my right to keep and bear the arms of my choice.

I fight with so called pro gun lobbyists, sportsman's councils presidents, and anyone else who thinks we should try to put on a pretty face for the crowd, and act like nice people. I am not a nice person when you fuck with me, I'm sorry.

The agenda is simple, they want our guns because they want to finally impose the totalitarian socialist state on us. They are not concerned about anyone's life or safety except their own, and to me, their lives are worthless. There is nothing to discuss with the antis. Nothing. All the logic in the world will have zero effect because they are lying to us, therefore there can never be a peaceful compromise worked out with them.

Link Posted: 4/25/2001 2:26:05 PM EDT

Know what worries me???

When hardcore gun owners, namely many people here, think it is TOO "in your face" to create a T-shirt that says...

"Defending YOUR Second Amendment" with a pic of an AR on it.

They don't want to "offend" anyone.

And I'm supposed to think these clowns are gonna be covering my six when the lead starts flyin'????

THAT is what worries me.
View Quote

I wear this shirt:


You can order one at the JPFO website:


BTW Garandman, I'll be around to cover some sixes when the time comes. [:)]
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 2:41:18 PM EDT
So often we talk amongst ourselves, our families, and even a wider range about how one day the government is going to go too far with this or that, and the rebellion will start with us at the helm.  

View Quote

Know what worries me???

When hardcore gun owners, namely many people here, think it is TOO "in your face" to create a T-shirt that says...

"Defending YOUR Second Amendment" with a pic of an AR on it.

They don't want to "offend" anyone.

And I'm supposed to think these clowns are gonna be covering my six when the lead starts flyin'????

THAT is what worries me.
View Quote

Amen  It pisses me off to even hear their excuses.
But this will make us look bad lets just sit back and take it. Yeah thats just what they want you to do.  [sniper]
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 2:41:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 2:53:21 PM EDT
  I wrote a lengthy reply to this thread, but when I proof read it prior to submitting it, I realized just how weak my position was.
  I think I am just an average CA gunowner. I am concerned about my, and my childrens future. I don't advertise blatantly that I own weapons nor do I advertise that I am a member of any organizations that support such. I go to the range when I can. I take my kids with me when I can. I support the causes I like. I DON'T actively fight the ones I don't like. I voted pro gun and tried to convince others to do the same.

  If you want to know if I would actively engage in combat with people or forces that want to take my personal rights away, I don't know. I think I would if the lines were clear.

  If the local police dept. knocks on my door during the day and asks to see my registered weapons, I'm gonna comply. If they kick in the door in the middle of the night, I and my family will be dead.

  I don't think it will ever get to this point. I think it will be gentle and gradual, until it progresses to a total shutdown of the firearms industry.

  I don't think I'm a pussy, just a realist.  

  I really do want to get involved to effect some change, but I need some guidance. And a REALISTIC goal.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 2:55:02 PM EDT
I won't wear the t-shirt.  But I will wear the polo shirt if you find one!  

Or better yet...  "Defending YOUR Bill of Rights!" with an AR on it...

Link Posted: 4/25/2001 3:00:44 PM EDT
I won't wear the t-shirt.  But I will wear the polo shirt if you find one!  

Or better yet...  "Defending YOUR Bill of Rights!" with an AR on it...

View Quote

Oh great! A fashion conscious patriot! You want me to get dirty? I can't do that! When's this revolution going to be over so I can get into my clean Brooks Bothers? [:)]
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 3:03:36 PM EDT
I've about decided they will have to take mine by force.  Hopefully I will have enough stockpiled by then that I can take them first.  Maybe there will be so many like me out there that the police will not enforce the law to that extent.  Most police I know want law-abiding citizens armed. It keeps down crime and maybe, just maybe will keep the Chinese bastards from invading the US.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 3:08:29 PM EDT
So often we talk amongst ourselves, our families, and even a wider range about how one day the government is going to go too far with this or that, and the rebellion will start with us at the helm.  

View Quote

Know what worries me???

When hardcore gun owners, namely many people here, think it is TOO "in your face" to create a T-shirt that says...

"Defending YOUR Second Amendment" with a pic of an AR on it.

They don't want to "offend" anyone.

And I'm supposed to think these clowns are gonna be covering my six when the lead starts flyin'????

THAT is what worries me.
View Quote

Public relations is a trickey game...The public already views us as "extremists" and fascists.  If I wear shirts that say [i]Buy a Gun; Piss a Liberal Off[/i], or the shirts that have groundhogs being shot into pieces and the blood splatters and all, I have probably killed the chances of [i]some[/i] people changing to our side.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 3:14:40 PM EDT
Operator Error - I understand where you are coming from.  Right now, the line is not clearly drawn, and you have no assurances that anyone will stand up for you, or with you, when the SHTF.  I personally am afraid of that day, and don't want that day to ever be here, with or without backup.  The problem is that day will be after you and I have had our guns taken away because we are in the target zone (the PRK).  I spend a little time each day, thinking of ways to encourage people who I know, to think about their freedoms.

I have taken a new step this year, and started a shooting club at my church.  It is proving to be quite interesting, but I've found I have a chance to talk with people who are of like mind regarding freedom, and to spread amongst these same individuals, a desire to retain those freedoms beyond the 1st Amendment.  Additionallly, my 8 year old son shoots in the Jr. NRA.  He shoots proficiently both lefty, and righty, and has been raised to respect guns, and value the freedoms we have as Americans.  And each of us is a member in the NRA.  

So about the guidance...  I don't know.  Check with your local NRA chapter, or start your own group at work, or church, or somewhere else.  Heck, try to take (and hopefully convert) one friend a month to the shooting range.  It's better to start spreading the word now, while many people have guns.

The goal?  To educate more people that guns are not the evil.  If you convince two people per month, and so does everyone else, we can start to conquer the fear, and then start the road to recovery!
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 3:14:50 PM EDT

I'm going to draw a paralel here - right or

We find ourselves in the same political  
position as many Third World countries faced
earlier in this Century.

Put upon - and Spat upon - by Major world
powers - whose only goal was power and
influence over others.

There once was a small nation - small in
population- small in military might-
oppressed by a SuperPower.

It was an Agrarian society - but also an
educated and religious one.

The people of this nation could not remember
when their children- or their children's
children - had been free-

And so - they rebelled - and Won their Freedom

Sadly though ,they took no inspiration from
their culture - but instead followed Blindly
the path of Might makes Right.

Eventually - they found that those
they had put in power no longer cared about
Freedom - only order - and control.

The name of this Nation - ?

America , VietNam , does it matter ?

We have Technology.
We have Nuclear Weapons.
We have more time to fix the problems.

But do we have the Will ?      [:\]

Link Posted: 4/25/2001 3:19:03 PM EDT
  The first time that someone resists an arms seizure attempt in a personal residence, and that person takes the life of a law enforcement officer, that person will automatically be spun by the media into a crazed militia member with a stockpiled arsenal of fully automatic assault weapons who planned to take over the government through force. (how's that for a run on sentence?)

  After the first few LEOs' are killed in seizure attempts, the public outcry will be deafening. And ALL weapons WILL be confiscated, through overwhelming force if neccessary.

  The media influences public opinion more than anything else in this country. We need to put some spin on our cause. Change public opinion, and we can work wonders.

Link Posted: 4/25/2001 3:21:55 PM EDT
I won't wear the t-shirt.  But I will wear the polo shirt if you find one!
View Quote

Oh great! A fashion conscious patriot! You want me to get dirty? I can't do that! When's this revolution going to be over so I can get into my clean Brooks Bothers? [:)]
View Quote

I iron my cammies!  [:)]  Nahh...  I just hate how I look in a t-shirt.  A classy polo or button down shirt sends a different impression to those that would hate us because of our guns.  Imagine the fashion concious liberals checking us out...  "Hmmm... he doesn't look like a beer guzzling redneck".  We've conquered that one more stereotype.  And when my wife wears the shirts?  Another image smashed away as well...
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 3:24:51 PM EDT
garandman: i will be there for any free person who i can get to to help.

if they try breaking in the door of my neighbor theyl have my neighbor in front and me in back. and those odds can change in a heartbeat for the feds.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 3:36:34 PM EDT
The line??? What made those at concorde and lexington establish the line. It basically came down to the difference between a citizen and a subject. Those in the royal familys grasp are subjects of king and country, not citizen.

I have experienced first hand over the last forty plus years the steady creep of socialism, and the continual brainwashing techniques of the enemy to make a weapon a villian, but exhort those who will deprive us of our liberty.

There will come a time when our Constitution will be trashed by those who seek to place chains on us. I know where my line is, and I will not submit to the chains of a totalitarian government no matter how much safety they promise. The safety they promise will eventually become the camps which are the natural legacy of any people that are disarmed. And with the camps comes the ignoble death to those that are useless eaters.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 3:46:46 PM EDT
Here's an idea:  At your next organized shooting event, send out invitations to the media - everybody you can think of, TV, Radio and print.  You may not get any takers, but then again, you might.  If you do, be on your best behavior and ask THEM simple, pointed questions about their beliefs on individual rights.  

Will you end up the victims of biased reporting?  Most probably.  But if you by chance actually end up mentioned on the air or in print (even negatively) you will be letting people know you exist.  If, by some miracle, you get FAVORABLE coverage, well you've done a little bit to help stem the flow.  

Be friendly, be helpful, offer instruction, and let them play with your recreational implements.  People who aren't terrified of firearms often find them extremely enjoyable.  It surprises the hell out of them, usually.

Go on, invite the media - you might do some good.  Someone said the first step is changing our image.  The media is the only place we're going to do that.

Like many of you, I don't know where the line is drawn, and I hope I don't ever have to find out.  But I am convinced in my heart that if my line gets crossed I will be ready and able to do the right thing. [:\]
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 4:53:51 PM EDT
The line moves towards tyranny all the time. Each generation and even within the generations we become softened to the current definition of freedom.  While the US is more "free" than many countrys we have no real freedom but rather limited choices in our daily lives.  Face it we are completely controled already, and people are not willing to give up even their Lazy-boy chair for any principle they believe in.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 5:08:17 PM EDT
I stopped over my parents (in their late 60's) home this evening and we were discussing the news headlines when they surprised the hell out of me.  They were both very upset about the latest Supreme Court ruling regarding this lady that was arrested for not wearing her seatbelt.  They said their friends were also upset.  Well it made me think.

First off, I believe if we try and draw a line in the sand, it will always move until there is no more sand left.  

WE  NEED TO ORGANIZE AND MARCH PEACEFULLY AT STATE  AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LOCATIONS AND NOW...... NOT AFTER THE FACT.  [red]This is not about guns[/red]....when you stop worrying about when they are going to take your AR, you will realize that they are taking your rights.....and  MOST AMERICANS STILL WANT AND CHERISH THOSE RIGHTS.  THE GUN IS MERELY THE SYMBOL, THE LOSE IS YOUR RIGHTS.  Just as we know that Guns don't kill, people do, they HAVE and ARE using our own weapons against us to take away our RIGHTS.  It's a smoke screen!  They have chosen the smart target (our terrible guns) and it's time to change targets on them and expose them for what they are.  It's our turn to get smart.  

Unless we get out in mass and begin marching in protest against these "unjust decisions", they will take them one by one.  Through protest, we can get media exposure, grow our numbers, and spread the word.  If it is a scheduled protest that repeats often, then others who believe in these rights will join us.  They (general public) may not be willing to lay down their lives over gun control, but I believe they will voice their opinion and join us when it's about their rights.  If done correctly, maybe we will once again become the majority.  The crap with the arrested Lady has caused many, many Americans to take notice.  The time is now.  We need some national organization but not the NRA (the anti's will beat us down before we get started) to help organize these protests and advertise the schedule.  Only through exposure and numbers can we peacefully defend our rights.  

Again, this is NOT about our right to own guns, its about our rights.  They want us to focus on guns (those things that kill) so they can get the sympathy of the general public.....or at least their apathy.  

Lets out think them!  It is truly our only chance.  When someone says "why do you need to have such a gun" tell them "it's not my gun I am fighting for, it's YOUR RIGHTS, .... THEY JUST CHOOSE TO GO AFTER THE EASIEST TARGET FIRST."  

If not, then I, like most others will only react when they break down my door..... and by then it will be to late for me, my family, my cause, and my country.  

Link Posted: 4/25/2001 5:24:00 PM EDT
Claire Wolfe said, "It's too late to vote, and too soon to shoot the bastards."  This talk of changing public opinion, favorable media coverage, etc. is a DREAM!  We are the next targets of the globalists, and they will not stop as long as they are breathing.  It doesn't matter how many of us there are, voting WILL NOT DO ANY GOOD AT THIS POINT!!   No oligarchy has ever peaceably relinquished power.  Where is the line?  Beyond civil disobedience.  Beyond casual training.  When gun confiscation starts, I'll be the 'outside the fence' reaction force, pickin' em off one at a time while their attention is diverted...............
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 5:39:48 PM EDT
We are surrounded by idiots in overwelming numbers. Soccer mom mentality abound. I say send all the anti gunners to Somalia to live for a while, unarmed of course. Then see if their attitude towards guns change. Unfortunately, when the government decides one day we don't need all these guns and makes private gun ownership illegal our own "good citizens" will turn in all us criminals. I pray I can just live out my days without seeing this come to pass.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 6:56:15 PM EDT
You're right!

It's time!


you first.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 8:01:42 PM EDT
I once had a professor in college who really qualified as a Renaissance Man.  Not only did he have a double doctorate, but he went on some very death-defying camera safaris in darkest Africa ('Here are some armed Mau-Mau warriors who showed up at our camp one morning'), and showed us slides of flying over the North Pole ('That's me at the controls'), handling cobras in India ('Right before I got bit'), the works.

He always made a point of saying 'You don't have to guess whether the snake that bit you is poisonous or not.  If it's poisonous, you'll know it immediately! There will be no doubt in your mind whatsoever.'

If it becomes time to cease political action of the nonviolent sort, to begin political action of the violent sort, you will instinctively know it. Thousands of others will also 'know' it and you and the others won't be looking for Dan, and Peter, and Tom to give you their blessing for what you are bound to do, they are and will most likely continue to be the enemy.

Eric The(Wake me when the balloon goes up)Hun
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 10:38:36 PM EDT

This question is answered in the book: "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. The way to arrive at this solution is basically this way.
Assume that you are a Jew who is living in the lovely little state run resort: Auschwitz in 1943. Naturally you will be thinking about the past 10 years (Hitler coming into power in 1933) and how things were pretty good up until then. And how quickley things became very bad for you and your family.

And naturally you will be "kicking yourself" for being so stupid as to not leaving Germany when you still had the chance. And (very stupidly) turning in that gun you had registered in the 1920's during the Weimar Republic.

Basically, the FIRST thing that happens in a country that is going down the road towards TYRANNY is the school curriculums are watered down (particularly the teaching of US History).
Then Gun Control Laws are passed..piece by piece..little by little until..(as in Great Britain) almost all firearms are virtually illegal to own.

Then comes the laws..chipping away at your 1st, 4th, and 5th Amendment rights.

And finally laws which outlaw free elections.

Clearly if you wait until free elections have been outlawed...you've waited too long.

Equally clearly if you've waited until free speech and your 4th and 5th Amendment rights have been destroyed..you've waited too long.

How can you resist shouting your words at men who are armed with guns who are coming to take your family away to the camps ?

The TIME to act is when Firearms are in the process of being outlawed.
Once they are completely outlawed..it is too late.

While they are in the PROCESS of being outlawed. It is YOUR DUTY to BUY and stock pile ARMS, AMMO and Spare Parts for your family.
It is also your DUTY to alert your friends and co-workers of the danger of being without firearms when all guns are outlawed.

What actions should you take ?
(1.) While gun control legislation is still being passed. You buy guns, ammo and spare parts. You try to convince others to follow your example. You also try to slow down the legislation by flooding your congressmens offices with phone calls and letters.
You also teach your children and grandchildren US history, the history of holocausts, and how to shoot and take care of your firearms which they will inheirit.
This is the prepatory phase.
(2.) Guns have been completely outlawed. (or partially outlawed). Outlawed Guns are then to be soaked in Cosmoline and hidden in caches.
Each Cache is to include ammo, some cleaning supplies, a first aid kit, a little money, freeze dried food, change of clothing.
Meanwhile you try to slow down legislation that is overturning your remaining rights.
Carefully inspect and perform maintenance on your caches in a hidden manner.
This is the passive Resitance Phase.
(3.) All Rights have been outlawed.
You are very quiet during this stage. Saving your money, buying food, clothing, accessories and cacheing them. Armed Government Goon Squads are kicking doors in and searching homes.
(4.) Free Elections have been overturned. Armed Goons are not only kicking doors in but are hauling people off to "relocation centers" (to use the nazi germany phrase).
At this time you start to shoot the b*st*rds since you have nothing to lose.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 11:07:21 PM EDT
operator error is RIGHT, we (kalif) are on our own, and worse yet the kalif gun owner is abandoning ship when we need them most, cant fight a war with NO army.

if the line in the sand is kalif, then shouldnt the ENTIRE force of US gun owners be doing something about it HERE and NOW ?
wouldnt it make sense if 1 million gun owners from all across this nation were to join the state progun organizations ? or at least donate money to there cause? shouldnt 1 million people be doing the same in MD, NY, MA, NJ ???
theres 4 million NRA members, only 25% would be required to kick some butt on the state level.

the democraps want to get away from the gun control issue on the federal level, and with bush in office the antigunners would be wasting there time and $$$ trying to get 1 gun law passed. they will now (IMO) be concentrating on passing gun laws on the local and state levels(look at CO and Or gun laws passed). if we can repeal laws in kalif through the courts, it will make it that much more difficult to create those same laws in other states. you have also set a precedent as to why those laws are unconstitutional.

the NRA, GOA and all the other gun and sportsman organziation NEED to unite, to organize and Hang tough together.
Link Posted: 4/26/2001 4:25:44 AM EDT
Public relations is a trickey game...The public already views us as "extremists" and fascists.  If I wear shirts that say [i]Buy a Gun; Piss a Liberal Off[/i], or the shirts that have groundhogs being shot into pieces and the blood splatters and all, I have probably killed the chances of [i]some[/i] people changing to our side.
View Quote

Stubbs -

Life (including PR) is tricky ONLY when you have movable standards, and shifting principles. When you know what you believe and why, life becomes MUCH more simple.

First off, a shirt emblazoned "Defending YOUR Second Amendment" is a far cry from a shirt with prarie dog blood and guts splattered across it. thats a rather disingenuous comparison.

Secondly, re: those who already think that we are "extremists and fascists" let me ask you a question - "WHY do they think that??"

Two related possibilities exist -

1. They have believed the media about us.
2. They don't care enuf to learn the truth about the matter.

So, why are you gonna continue to kiss their posterior?? That brown stuff hangin' out AIN'T chocolate cake!!!!!

"Those people" DON'T care about the truth, CAN'T be reasoned with, and WILL NOT see anything other than their agenda.

So WHY do you keep putting up with them?? WHY????

Write them off, and go after the open minded people who know that the Second Amendment is a good thing.

ALL WE NEED to do is get the gun owners in America to see the need for free ownership of military style weapons. That's it. Nothing more.

But apparently, "YOU" (and fence straddling gun owners like you) are not even on our side. "YOU" are the problem, NOT the antis.

WAKE UP, and choose sides. We want you. We NEED you. Beleive it or not, this is meant NOT as a criticism of you, but as a call to action.
Link Posted: 4/26/2001 7:46:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/26/2001 8:55:49 AM EDT
Typical John Doe gun owner/ar15.com member:

John Doe: "If they come for my guns they are going to have to take it from my cold dead hands!"


John Doe: "If they start that here in MY state, they are going to have a fight on their hands with me!"


John Doe: "Those JBT better not do that in my county! I will make them pay!"


John Doe: "Like I said before they better not try that crap in my city or else!"


John Doe: "If they come to my house they are going to leave in bodybags!"


John Doe: "Don't shoot!!! You can have my all of my guns, even my wife and kids! Just let me stay here with my beer and t.v.!
Link Posted: 4/26/2001 11:45:29 AM EDT
T Rex mentions a totalitarian government is the line, but who defines the fine line where we cross from restricted freedoms into totalitarian, in a day and age where "creeping socialism" takes over?  Patriot_dave laments that we are losing our drive to fight through the slow effects of this same erosion, and notes that many that would fight are being numbed by the tricks of our enemy.  Paspecops notes a quote that it is (or may be) too late to vote, but that we are too early to fight.  

Eric the Hun and BostonTerrier are leaning in the direction of "we will know that time".  The problem here is that I don't think we will know.  Our children are being taught today that the Civil War was about freeing slaves, but are not taught about the quest for local governmental countrol.  Our children are being taught today that the American Revolution was about taxes (when they finally reach that point), but are not taught about the quest for freedom from tyranny.  [bold]Our children are not being told about the Bill of Rights.  [red]Do you think these children will know enough to stand for their rights in 50 years?[/red][/bold]

I come from a generation which even in a conservative school, was not truly instructed in the deep meanings behind these items above.  We did not memorize the Bill of Rights, we were not taught the full reasoning behind the Civil War, or the Revolution.  Indeed, it was lightly mentioned, but not fully stated in the whole of the class.  I have learned many things since, as I love to read for myself, but how many people just sit and watch the television?

So where is the line?  So many of us are afraid to stand on our own against the impending tyranny (which wouldn't help anyway).  So many of us think that we can convince more people in the media, or through the media, to turn things back.  Others may be conned into thinking Digital Angel is OK for us to protect our kids, that only sporting weapons count in the 2nd Am., that gun owners are evil, and anyone under the age of 18 should not know their parents have guns.

We are in a minority that grows smaller every time DiFi, Boxer, and Rosie open their mouths.  There will be a day when we have grown too small to make that difference, to stop the onslaught.  If a revolt were to happen today, I have no doubt that many would be prepared, and would join in.  But yes, it is not time yet.  But they will knock on our doors someday, and when they do, it will have been too late as well.  Some would fight at that time, but the battle would have been lost by then.  Witness England and Australia to know that...
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