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Posted: 4/17/2016 2:37:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/21/2016 12:17:33 PM EDT by targettarget]




http://fortune.com/2016/04/15/sunedison-bankruptcy-sunday-night/





(Reuters) – Solar energy company SunEdison is preparing to file for
bankruptcy as early as the evening of April 17, a person familiar with
the matter said on Friday, nine months after its market value had
reached $10 billion.





Such a move would represent a fall from grace for the former darling of
Wall Street and the renewable energy sector, whose rapid, debt-fueled
expansion with solar and wind energy plants around the world proved
unsustainable. The company’s market value as of Friday was $117 million.
View Quote






but But BUT BUT GREEN ENERGY IS THE FUTURE!!!!!!!1!!  

 
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 2:44:14 AM EDT
It doesn't matter what the product is. If you borrow and spend like a rock star, you're going to go tits up.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 2:46:22 AM EDT


That pesky Global Warming strikes again...



Link Posted: 4/17/2016 2:51:51 AM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By AnticitizenOne:


It doesn't matter what the product is. If you borrow and spend like a rock star, you're going to go tits up.
View Quote


Exactly, and if you're stupid enough to let politicians get involved you'd still somehow wind up running a loss from a $25 rub 'n tug shop completely staffed by Swedish nymphomaniacs right outside the front gates of Camp Pendleton.



 
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 2:54:52 AM EDT
Based upon this success.  Let's go ahead and shut down the coal plants that work well.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 2:54:54 AM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fulminata:





Exactly, and if you're stupid enough to let politicians get involved you'd still somehow wind up running a loss from a $25 rub 'n tug shop completely staffed by Swedish nymphomaniacs right outside the front gates of Camp Pendleton.

 
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By Fulminata:



Originally Posted By AnticitizenOne:

It doesn't matter what the product is. If you borrow and spend like a rock star, you're going to go tits up.


Exactly, and if you're stupid enough to let politicians get involved you'd still somehow wind up running a loss from a $25 rub 'n tug shop completely staffed by Swedish nymphomaniacs right outside the front gates of Camp Pendleton.

 


LOL



 
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 2:57:01 AM EDT
One thing that w/should sicken most people that I have to look at almost every single day:  thousands of solar panel arrays scattered throughout the Afghan countryside...presumably to power lights, water pumps, etc. in houses and villages that would otherwise be off the essentially non-existent grid.+

Next let's talk about microhydro(electric).
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 2:59:57 AM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By targettarget:





LOL

 
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By targettarget:



Originally Posted By Fulminata:


Originally Posted By AnticitizenOne:

It doesn't matter what the product is. If you borrow and spend like a rock star, you're going to go tits up.


Exactly, and if you're stupid enough to let politicians get involved you'd still somehow wind up running a loss from a $25 rub 'n tug shop completely staffed by Swedish nymphomaniacs right outside the front gates of Camp Pendleton.

 


LOL

 
Ha-ha that guy fucking nailed it.

 
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 3:18:47 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fulminata:

Exactly, and if you're stupid enough to let politicians get involved you'd still somehow wind up running a loss from a $25 rub 'n tug shop completely staffed by Swedish nymphomaniacs right outside the front gates of Camp Pendleton.
 
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fulminata:
Originally Posted By AnticitizenOne:
It doesn't matter what the product is. If you borrow and spend like a rock star, you're going to go tits up.

Exactly, and if you're stupid enough to let politicians get involved you'd still somehow wind up running a loss from a $25 rub 'n tug shop completely staffed by Swedish nymphomaniacs right outside the front gates of Camp Pendleton.
 

The politicians were involved on purpose because these things are scams that suck up public funding.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 3:19:51 AM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:


One thing that w/should sicken most people that I have to look at almost every single day:  thousands of solar panel arrays scattered throughout the Afghan countryside...presumably to power lights, water pumps, etc. in houses and villages that would otherwise be off the essentially non-existent grid.+



Next let's talk about microhydro(electric).
View Quote


Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.



Solar has it's place, like the situation you describe.



What solar isn't going to do is replace natural gas and oil anytime soon, and ironically, that's exactly what these 'progressive'-leftists think that it can and will do.  



 
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 3:23:25 AM EDT
How much money did we give them before they folded?
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 3:27:27 AM EDT
Such a move would represent a fall from grace for the former darling of Wall Street and the renewable energy sector, whose rapid, debt-fueled expansion with solar and wind energy plants around the world proved unsustainable.
View Quote


The energy they produced might have been sustainable, but their business plan was not...
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 3:29:15 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DoubleARon:
How much money did we give them before they folded?
View Quote


$4.59 million.

http://m.watchdog.org/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwatchdog.org%2F243022%2Fsunedison-4-59-million%2F&utm_referrer=#2909
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 3:30:42 AM EDT
lol. Lot of ignorant comments here. Not even going to waste my time.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 3:32:44 AM EDT
I'm shocked I tell you....shocked.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 3:34:21 AM EDT

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:


lol. Lot of ignorant comments here. Not even going to waste my time.
View Quote


Enlighten us.



 
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 3:39:39 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
lol. Lot of ignorant comments here. Not even going to waste my time.
View Quote



You again? Did you learn nothing the last time you called people "ignorant" in a power generation thread. Lol at you.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 3:45:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2016 4:02:09 AM EDT by SpudCrushr]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Enlighten us.
 
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Originally Posted By targettarget:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
lol. Lot of ignorant comments here. Not even going to waste my time.

Enlighten us.
 


Maybe I am wrong but green energy is the future. Not tomorrow or next year but it's coming faster than many think. Power companies are really fighting the solar model because, the way I see it, solar will destroy profit margins if it is allowed to grow. Yeah, it's not as cheap as burning coal today but prices are falling rapidly. And it's a lot cleaner as well though many people don't put a price on pollution. I'm not a tree hugging hippy but I also don't like breathing in dirty air and getting sick. One of my friend's daughters has uncontrollable vomiting spells when the air quality gets bad. That's a problem.

And to all the people complaining about the government handouts and subsidies, do some research. Oil, gas, and coal get a lot of help financially and politically. Look at our tax code. It's ignorant to call out green companies for taking money when oil and gas rake in the government money as well. If a company, green or not, is poorly managed, let them go under. I am not saying that SUNE should get a bailout. Rather, don't purposely try to hinder successful green companies because they might hurt profit margins for large fossil fuel companies. Tesla and Solar City for example.

SUNE is failing not because solar is too expensive, but rather poor management, lots of debt, and high interest rates. Those problems can and have killed many companies over the years.

I'm not calling for a ban on dirty fuels by the end of the year but it's time to cut back on their funding and put it into other areas like nuclear and green energy. This isn't the stone age--we can do better than coal and oil.


Originally Posted By sd0324:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
lol. Lot of ignorant comments here. Not even going to waste my time.



You again? Did you learn nothing the last time you called people "ignorant" in a power generation thread. Lol at you.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Life is easy when you're a lemming, eh? Certainly a lot easier than doing research and employing some critical thinking.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 3:47:46 AM EDT
I am only surprised that it happened before the election.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 4:02:24 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

Solar has it's place, like the situation you describe.

What solar isn't going to do is replace natural gas and oil anytime soon, and ironically, that's exactly what these 'progressive'-leftists think that it can and will do.  
 
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By targettarget:
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
One thing that w/should sicken most people that I have to look at almost every single day:  thousands of solar panel arrays scattered throughout the Afghan countryside...presumably to power lights, water pumps, etc. in houses and villages that would otherwise be off the essentially non-existent grid.+

Next let's talk about microhydro(electric).

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

Solar has it's place, like the situation you describe.

What solar isn't going to do is replace natural gas and oil anytime soon, and ironically, that's exactly what these 'progressive'-leftists think that it can and will do.  
 

Curious, you LOL at greed and politicians getting involved and being part of the demise of the company. Then a few posts later you post, solar has it's place yet(example noted), yet, you blame progressive leftists for thinking it can replace the oil and gas. Well it did in that case and if you knew the Saudi's situation better or understood the history of the project you may change your position. The economic side is genius.
Mixed signals.
Americans have a vested interest in fossil fuels based on the investments in stocks but, contrary to belief there are Conservatives that do not embrace the science on global warming but, also support renewable energy. We need alternatives for the future not to mention the jobs it will create. I have no issues with leftist industry contributing to the economy for once.

There isn't a Gov't in the World that doesn't have it's greasy palm in the name of energy, regardless of the source.

Link Posted: 4/17/2016 4:06:10 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:


Maybe I am wrong but green energy is the future. Not tomorrow or next year but it's coming faster than many think. Power companies are really fighting the solar model because, the way I see it, solar will destroy profit margins if it is allowed to grow. Yeah, it's not as cheap as burning coal today but prices are falling rapidly. And it's a lot cleaner as well though many people don't put a price on pollution. I'm not a tree hugging hippy but I also don't like breathing in dirty air and getting sick. One of my friend's daughters has uncontrollable vomiting spells when the air quality gets bad. That's a problem.

And to all the people complaining about the government handouts and subsidies, do some research. Oil, gas, and coal get a lot of help financially and politically. Look at our tax code. It's ignorant to call out green companies for taking money when oil and gas rake in the government money as well. If a company, green or not, is poorly managed, let them go under. I am not saying that SUNE should get a bailout. Rather, don't purposely try to hinder successful green companies because they might hurt profit margins for large fossil fuel companies. Tesla and Solar City for example.

I'm not calling for a ban on dirty fuels by the end of the year but it's time to cut back on their funding and put it into other areas like nuclear and green energy. This isn't the stone age--we can do better than coal and oil.




Life is easy when you're a lemming, eh? Certainly a lot easier than doing research and employing some critical thinking.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Originally Posted By targettarget:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
lol. Lot of ignorant comments here. Not even going to waste my time.

Enlighten us.
 


Maybe I am wrong but green energy is the future. Not tomorrow or next year but it's coming faster than many think. Power companies are really fighting the solar model because, the way I see it, solar will destroy profit margins if it is allowed to grow. Yeah, it's not as cheap as burning coal today but prices are falling rapidly. And it's a lot cleaner as well though many people don't put a price on pollution. I'm not a tree hugging hippy but I also don't like breathing in dirty air and getting sick. One of my friend's daughters has uncontrollable vomiting spells when the air quality gets bad. That's a problem.

And to all the people complaining about the government handouts and subsidies, do some research. Oil, gas, and coal get a lot of help financially and politically. Look at our tax code. It's ignorant to call out green companies for taking money when oil and gas rake in the government money as well. If a company, green or not, is poorly managed, let them go under. I am not saying that SUNE should get a bailout. Rather, don't purposely try to hinder successful green companies because they might hurt profit margins for large fossil fuel companies. Tesla and Solar City for example.

I'm not calling for a ban on dirty fuels by the end of the year but it's time to cut back on their funding and put it into other areas like nuclear and green energy. This isn't the stone age--we can do better than coal and oil.


Originally Posted By sd0324:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
lol. Lot of ignorant comments here. Not even going to waste my time.



You again? Did you learn nothing the last time you called people "ignorant" in a power generation thread. Lol at you.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Life is easy when you're a lemming, eh? Certainly a lot easier than doing research and employing some critical thinking.




Lemming? You really are a "critical thinker"...LOL.    I am sitting in a control center right now watching major voltages lag and other fun things that go along with your retarded wind and solar bullshit who promise to deliver megawatts to the market and rarely produce what they say they will. But because they are so subsidized they suffer no financial penalties. It fucks everything up and ultimately costs more for energy to the consumer. The law also grants them transmission priorities which prevents reliable power from using it and causes much congestion. So the sooner this bullshit goes under, unless it can live on it's own (which it cannot) the better.  People who think like you are the ignorant ones and you take reliable electricity for granted, like water and air because it has always been there in your lifetime. I wish we could shut our hated coal power plants ALL off for a week. You would not care if we were shovelling puppies and kittens in the boiler and spewing acid rain out of the stack if you had to go one week without power.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 4:07:01 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Idaholandho:

Curious, you LOL at greed and politicians getting involved and being part of the demise of the company. Then a few posts later you post, solar has it's place yet(example noted), yet, you blame progressive leftists for thinking it can replace the oil and gas. Well it did in that case and if you knew the Saudi's situation better or understood the history of the project you may change your position. The economic side is genius.
Mixed signals.
Americans have a vested interest in fossil fuels based on the investments in stocks but, contrary to belief there are Conservatives that do not embrace the science on global warming but, also support renewable energy. We need alternatives for the future not to mention the jobs it will create. I have no issues with leftist industry contributing to the economy for once.

There isn't a Gov't in the World that doesn't have it's greasy palm in the name of energy, regardless of the source.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Idaholandho:
Originally Posted By targettarget:
Originally Posted By KILLERB6:
One thing that w/should sicken most people that I have to look at almost every single day:  thousands of solar panel arrays scattered throughout the Afghan countryside...presumably to power lights, water pumps, etc. in houses and villages that would otherwise be off the essentially non-existent grid.+

Next let's talk about microhydro(electric).

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

Solar has it's place, like the situation you describe.

What solar isn't going to do is replace natural gas and oil anytime soon, and ironically, that's exactly what these 'progressive'-leftists think that it can and will do.  
 

Curious, you LOL at greed and politicians getting involved and being part of the demise of the company. Then a few posts later you post, solar has it's place yet(example noted), yet, you blame progressive leftists for thinking it can replace the oil and gas. Well it did in that case and if you knew the Saudi's situation better or understood the history of the project you may change your position. The economic side is genius.
Mixed signals.
Americans have a vested interest in fossil fuels based on the investments in stocks but, contrary to belief there are Conservatives that do not embrace the science on global warming but, also support renewable energy. We need alternatives for the future not to mention the jobs it will create. I have no issues with leftist industry contributing to the economy for once.

There isn't a Gov't in the World that doesn't have it's greasy palm in the name of energy, regardless of the source.



Spot on.

Link Posted: 4/17/2016 4:23:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2016 4:28:03 AM EDT by SpudCrushr]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sd0324:

Lemming? You really are a "critical thinker"...LOL.    I am sitting in a control center right now watching major voltages lag and other fun things that go along with your retarded wind and solar bullshit who promise to deliver megawatts to the market and rarely produce what they say they will. But because they are so subsidized they suffer no financial penalties. It fucks everything up and ultimately costs more for energy to the consumer. The law also grants them transmission priorities which prevents reliable power from using it and causes much congestion. So the sooner this bullshit goes under, unless it can live on it's own (which it cannot) the better.  People who think like you are the ignorant ones and you take reliable electricity for granted, like water and air because it has always been there in your lifetime. I wish we could shut our hated coal power plants ALL off for a week. You would not care if we were shovelling puppies and kittens in the boiler and spewing acid rain out of the stack if you had to go one week without power.
View Quote


I make no promises about anything. In fact, I specifically said I don't support poorly run companies, green or not. You must have missed that part. Seems to be a theme here. Everything has a trade-off, like the terrible pollution that is expelled from coal plants. But a lot of people don't seem to care about that or its effects on people. You cannot expect green projects to be perfectly accurate but if they are outside of a certain percentage, they should be penalized.

Here we go again with subsidies... Are you aware of the help that is given to the fossil fuel industry? Yes? Don't care? Cool. I guess subsidies are great when they help you but evil the second they are used to help advance civilization.

So solar cannot live on its own? That's hilarious. Did you miss the part about solar panels all over the ME? What about all the peppers who live off the grid? What about the growing number of people with panels on their roofs who are connected to the grid? A lot of European countries seem to be doing okay with way higher percentages of solar than us.

Talking about ignorant, what do you know of my life? You're making a lot of assumptions there. In fact, I lived in the sticks growing up. Losing power was normal, sometimes for over a week at a time. Solar sure would have been nice to have back then.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 4:29:17 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:


I make no promises about anything. In fact, I specifically said I don't support poorly run companies, green or not. You must have missed that part. Seems to be a theme here. Everything has a trade-off, like the terrible pollution that is expelled from coal plants. But a lot of people don't seem to care about that or its effects on people. You cannot expect green projects to be perfectly accurate but if they are outside of a certain percentage, they should be penalized.

Here we go again with subsidies... Are you aware of the help that is given to the fossil fuel industry? Yes? Don't care? Cool. I guess subsidies are great when they help you but evil the second they are used to help advance civilization.

So solar cannot live on its own? That's hilarious. Did you miss the part about solar panels all over the ME? What about all the peppers who live off the grid? What about the growing number of people with panels on their roofs who are connected to the grid? A lot of European countries seem to be doing okay with way higher percentages of solar than us.

Talking about ignorant, what do you know of my life? You're making a lot of assumptions there. In fact, I lived in the sticks growing up. Losing power was normal, sometimes for over a week at a time. Solar sure would have been nice to have back then.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Originally Posted By sd0324:

Lemming? You really are a "critical thinker"...LOL.    I am sitting in a control center right now watching major voltages lag and other fun things that go along with your retarded wind and solar bullshit who promise to deliver megawatts to the market and rarely produce what they say they will. But because they are so subsidized they suffer no financial penalties. It fucks everything up and ultimately costs more for energy to the consumer. The law also grants them transmission priorities which prevents reliable power from using it and causes much congestion. So the sooner this bullshit goes under, unless it can live on it's own (which it cannot) the better.  People who think like you are the ignorant ones and you take reliable electricity for granted, like water and air because it has always been there in your lifetime. I wish we could shut our hated coal power plants ALL off for a week. You would not care if we were shovelling puppies and kittens in the boiler and spewing acid rain out of the stack if you had to go one week without power.


I make no promises about anything. In fact, I specifically said I don't support poorly run companies, green or not. You must have missed that part. Seems to be a theme here. Everything has a trade-off, like the terrible pollution that is expelled from coal plants. But a lot of people don't seem to care about that or its effects on people. You cannot expect green projects to be perfectly accurate but if they are outside of a certain percentage, they should be penalized.

Here we go again with subsidies... Are you aware of the help that is given to the fossil fuel industry? Yes? Don't care? Cool. I guess subsidies are great when they help you but evil the second they are used to help advance civilization.

So solar cannot live on its own? That's hilarious. Did you miss the part about solar panels all over the ME? What about all the peppers who live off the grid? What about the growing number of people with panels on their roofs who are connected to the grid? A lot of European countries seem to be doing okay with way higher percentages of solar than us.

Talking about ignorant, what do you know of my life? You're making a lot of assumptions there. In fact, I lived in the sticks growing up. Losing power was normal, sometimes for over a week at a time. Solar sure would have been nice to have back then.




Nope, I still maintain you are ignorant on this. But bless your heart.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 4:39:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2016 4:42:19 AM EDT by SpudCrushr]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sd0324:




Nope, I still maintain you are ignorant on this. But bless your heart.
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Originally Posted By sd0324:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Originally Posted By sd0324:

Lemming? You really are a "critical thinker"...LOL.    I am sitting in a control center right now watching major voltages lag and other fun things that go along with your retarded wind and solar bullshit who promise to deliver megawatts to the market and rarely produce what they say they will. But because they are so subsidized they suffer no financial penalties. It fucks everything up and ultimately costs more for energy to the consumer. The law also grants them transmission priorities which prevents reliable power from using it and causes much congestion. So the sooner this bullshit goes under, unless it can live on it's own (which it cannot) the better.  People who think like you are the ignorant ones and you take reliable electricity for granted, like water and air because it has always been there in your lifetime. I wish we could shut our hated coal power plants ALL off for a week. You would not care if we were shovelling puppies and kittens in the boiler and spewing acid rain out of the stack if you had to go one week without power.


I make no promises about anything. In fact, I specifically said I don't support poorly run companies, green or not. You must have missed that part. Seems to be a theme here. Everything has a trade-off, like the terrible pollution that is expelled from coal plants. But a lot of people don't seem to care about that or its effects on people. You cannot expect green projects to be perfectly accurate but if they are outside of a certain percentage, they should be penalized.

Here we go again with subsidies... Are you aware of the help that is given to the fossil fuel industry? Yes? Don't care? Cool. I guess subsidies are great when they help you but evil the second they are used to help advance civilization.

So solar cannot live on its own? That's hilarious. Did you miss the part about solar panels all over the ME? What about all the peppers who live off the grid? What about the growing number of people with panels on their roofs who are connected to the grid? A lot of European countries seem to be doing okay with way higher percentages of solar than us.

Talking about ignorant, what do you know of my life? You're making a lot of assumptions there. In fact, I lived in the sticks growing up. Losing power was normal, sometimes for over a week at a time. Solar sure would have been nice to have back then.




Nope, I still maintain you are ignorant on this. But bless your heart.


I'm ignorant yet you fail to address my points. Got it. No wonder the left loves to call out conservatives. The "I'm right, you're wrong" style of argument stops being effective around grade school.

Believe it or not, my mind isn't made up on climate change, energy, etc. I am open to both sides of the argument but so far the left seems to be doing a lot better job of presenting thing side of the story (right or wrong). Sadly, few conservatives seem to want to have a reasonable debate on the issues.


Link Posted: 4/17/2016 4:41:17 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fulminata:

Exactly, and if you're stupid enough to let politicians get involved you'd still somehow wind up running a loss from a $25 rub 'n tug shop completely staffed by Swedish nymphomaniacs right outside the front gates of Camp Pendleton.
 
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Originally Posted By Fulminata:
Originally Posted By AnticitizenOne:
It doesn't matter what the product is. If you borrow and spend like a rock star, you're going to go tits up.

Exactly, and if you're stupid enough to let politicians get involved you'd still somehow wind up running a loss from a $25 rub 'n tug shop completely staffed by Swedish nymphomaniacs right outside the front gates of Camp Pendleton.
 

Holy fuck that's sigline worthy.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 4:41:40 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:


I'm ignorant yet you fail to address my points. Got it. No wonder the left loves to call out conservatives. The "I'm right, you're wrong" style of argument stops being effective around grade school.


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Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Originally Posted By sd0324:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Originally Posted By sd0324:

Lemming? You really are a "critical thinker"...LOL.    I am sitting in a control center right now watching major voltages lag and other fun things that go along with your retarded wind and solar bullshit who promise to deliver megawatts to the market and rarely produce what they say they will. But because they are so subsidized they suffer no financial penalties. It fucks everything up and ultimately costs more for energy to the consumer. The law also grants them transmission priorities which prevents reliable power from using it and causes much congestion. So the sooner this bullshit goes under, unless it can live on it's own (which it cannot) the better.  People who think like you are the ignorant ones and you take reliable electricity for granted, like water and air because it has always been there in your lifetime. I wish we could shut our hated coal power plants ALL off for a week. You would not care if we were shovelling puppies and kittens in the boiler and spewing acid rain out of the stack if you had to go one week without power.


I make no promises about anything. In fact, I specifically said I don't support poorly run companies, green or not. You must have missed that part. Seems to be a theme here. Everything has a trade-off, like the terrible pollution that is expelled from coal plants. But a lot of people don't seem to care about that or its effects on people. You cannot expect green projects to be perfectly accurate but if they are outside of a certain percentage, they should be penalized.

Here we go again with subsidies... Are you aware of the help that is given to the fossil fuel industry? Yes? Don't care? Cool. I guess subsidies are great when they help you but evil the second they are used to help advance civilization.

So solar cannot live on its own? That's hilarious. Did you miss the part about solar panels all over the ME? What about all the peppers who live off the grid? What about the growing number of people with panels on their roofs who are connected to the grid? A lot of European countries seem to be doing okay with way higher percentages of solar than us.

Talking about ignorant, what do you know of my life? You're making a lot of assumptions there. In fact, I lived in the sticks growing up. Losing power was normal, sometimes for over a week at a time. Solar sure would have been nice to have back then.




Nope, I still maintain you are ignorant on this. But bless your heart.


I'm ignorant yet you fail to address my points. Got it. No wonder the left loves to call out conservatives. The "I'm right, you're wrong" style of argument stops being effective around grade school.





Do you power your home and car with solar?
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 4:49:18 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By sd0324:



Do you power your home and car with solar?
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Originally Posted By sd0324:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Originally Posted By sd0324:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Originally Posted By sd0324:

Lemming? You really are a "critical thinker"...LOL.    I am sitting in a control center right now watching major voltages lag and other fun things that go along with your retarded wind and solar bullshit who promise to deliver megawatts to the market and rarely produce what they say they will. But because they are so subsidized they suffer no financial penalties. It fucks everything up and ultimately costs more for energy to the consumer. The law also grants them transmission priorities which prevents reliable power from using it and causes much congestion. So the sooner this bullshit goes under, unless it can live on it's own (which it cannot) the better.  People who think like you are the ignorant ones and you take reliable electricity for granted, like water and air because it has always been there in your lifetime. I wish we could shut our hated coal power plants ALL off for a week. You would not care if we were shovelling puppies and kittens in the boiler and spewing acid rain out of the stack if you had to go one week without power.


I make no promises about anything. In fact, I specifically said I don't support poorly run companies, green or not. You must have missed that part. Seems to be a theme here. Everything has a trade-off, like the terrible pollution that is expelled from coal plants. But a lot of people don't seem to care about that or its effects on people. You cannot expect green projects to be perfectly accurate but if they are outside of a certain percentage, they should be penalized.

Here we go again with subsidies... Are you aware of the help that is given to the fossil fuel industry? Yes? Don't care? Cool. I guess subsidies are great when they help you but evil the second they are used to help advance civilization.

So solar cannot live on its own? That's hilarious. Did you miss the part about solar panels all over the ME? What about all the peppers who live off the grid? What about the growing number of people with panels on their roofs who are connected to the grid? A lot of European countries seem to be doing okay with way higher percentages of solar than us.

Talking about ignorant, what do you know of my life? You're making a lot of assumptions there. In fact, I lived in the sticks growing up. Losing power was normal, sometimes for over a week at a time. Solar sure would have been nice to have back then.




Nope, I still maintain you are ignorant on this. But bless your heart.


I'm ignorant yet you fail to address my points. Got it. No wonder the left loves to call out conservatives. The "I'm right, you're wrong" style of argument stops being effective around grade school.





Do you power your home and car with solar?


Nope, I also don't own a home or have the ability (legally or practically) to power my residence with solar. Same goes for my car. I cannot afford a 70k+ Tesla not do I have access to electrical hookups where I park. Residential solar and a Tesla are in my future plans for what it's worth (which isn't much).

I like the idea of residential solar because it would mean reliable power where I plan on living. As I said, I grew up with frequent power outages. I don't like relying on anyone for anything, to include the power grid. As for the Tesla, drive one and you'll understand.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 4:53:15 AM EDT
SNIP



Do you power your home and car with solar?

Nope, I also don't own a home or have the ability (legally or practically) to power my residence with solar. Same goes for my car. I cannot afford a 70k+ Tesla not do I have access to electrical hookups where I park. Residential solar and a Tesla are in my future plans for what it's worth (which isn't much).

I like the idea of residential solar because it would mean reliable power where I plan on living. As I said, I grew up with frequent power outages. I don't like relying on anyone for anything, to include the power grid. As for the Tesla, drive one and you'll understand.




Well, at least you have critical thinking.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:03:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2016 5:04:09 AM EDT by Idaholandho]
We own this Railroad caboose and the land it sits on in the Sawtooth Region of Idaho. I have killed at least 15 elk and many more deer within earshot. It was helo'd in the middle of nowhere in the 70's. There is a snow runoff year round creek within feet of the deck, nowhere near a power source and the little power it has is solar. We are able to run lights inside, small appliances and charge our electronics to include a satellite phone.
I like solar energy.

Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:05:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2016 5:06:07 AM EDT by sirensong]
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Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Maybe I am wrong but green energy is the future. Not tomorrow or next year but it's coming faster than many think. Power companies are really fighting the solar model because, the way I see it, solar will destroy profit margins if it is allowed to grow.
View Quote


all forms of energy are the future.  our entire way of life is built upon it, and our food/water strategies are intrinsically bound up in it.

but here's a fact--there is no such thing as "green" energy.  there are only untapped reservoirs, all of which carry heavy environmental costs.  calling something "green" because the costs don't seem severe now is just perpetuating the same old problems.  people think geothermal--extracting heat--is 'free', but it is no different than extracting petroleum.  the only difference is that we haven't tapped that resource yet, so there is a big surplus right now.

don't delude yourself by assuming that what we refer to as 'alternative energy sources' are anything different than the old ones.  they're just new logs for the same old fire.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:09:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2016 5:19:57 AM EDT by SpudCrushr]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sd0324:
SNIP



Do you power your home and car with solar?

Nope, I also don't own a home or have the ability (legally or practically) to power my residence with solar. Same goes for my car. I cannot afford a 70k+ Tesla not do I have access to electrical hookups where I park. Residential solar and a Tesla are in my future plans for what it's worth (which isn't much).

I like the idea of residential solar because it would mean reliable power where I plan on living. As I said, I grew up with frequent power outages. I don't like relying on anyone for anything, to include the power grid. As for the Tesla, drive one and you'll understand.




Well, at least you have critical thinking.
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Originally Posted By sd0324:
SNIP



Do you power your home and car with solar?

Nope, I also don't own a home or have the ability (legally or practically) to power my residence with solar. Same goes for my car. I cannot afford a 70k+ Tesla not do I have access to electrical hookups where I park. Residential solar and a Tesla are in my future plans for what it's worth (which isn't much).

I like the idea of residential solar because it would mean reliable power where I plan on living. As I said, I grew up with frequent power outages. I don't like relying on anyone for anything, to include the power grid. As for the Tesla, drive one and you'll understand.




Well, at least you have critical thinking.


Thanks for that insight. You're doing a great job of making an argument against solar.




Originally Posted By sirensong:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Maybe I am wrong but green energy is the future. Not tomorrow or next year but it's coming faster than many think. Power companies are really fighting the solar model because, the way I see it, solar will destroy profit margins if it is allowed to grow.


all forms of energy are the future.  our entire way of life is built upon it, and our food/water strategies are intrinsically bound up in it.

but here's a fact--there is no such thing as "green" energy.  there are only untapped reservoirs, all of which carry heavy environmental costs.  calling something "green" because the costs don't seem severe now is just perpetuating the same old problems.  people think geothermal--extracting heat--is 'free', but it is no different than extracting petroleum.  the only difference is that we haven't tapped that resource yet, so there is a big surplus right now.

don't delude yourself by assuming that what we refer to as 'alternative energy sources' are anything different than the old ones.  they're just new logs for the same old fire.


Well nothing in life is free and nothing in life comes without consequences. I am interested to know why you say geothermal is on the same plane as petroleum. Geothermal is more or less a closed system. Generally, it does not produce pollution. Extracting hear is not the same as extracting (and burning) matter. Perhaps I misunderstood your point. While each method of electricity generation carries its own costs, I think most people would agree that hydro power is much better for the environment than a coal plant. Same goes for solar. Should we give up on exploring other options with varying levels of hidden costs while accepting known methods with some very large costs? I guess each person has a different view on that question.

Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:11:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2016 5:42:25 AM EDT by sirensong]
edit: misread the quote chain
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:13:38 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:


Thanks for that insight. You're doing a great job of making an argument against solar.
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Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Originally Posted By sd0324:
SNIP



Do you power your home and car with solar?

Nope, I also don't own a home or have the ability (legally or practically) to power my residence with solar. Same goes for my car. I cannot afford a 70k+ Tesla not do I have access to electrical hookups where I park. Residential solar and a Tesla are in my future plans for what it's worth (which isn't much).

I like the idea of residential solar because it would mean reliable power where I plan on living. As I said, I grew up with frequent power outages. I don't like relying on anyone for anything, to include the power grid. As for the Tesla, drive one and you'll understand.




Well, at least you have critical thinking.


Thanks for that insight. You're doing a great job of making an argument against solar.



I bet you vote for Bernie. You seem like the type. You just said you cannot afford solar and are still arguing for it. You want Bernie to GIVE you solar.... that'll show those evil rich bastards. Right?
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:17:30 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By sirensong:


all forms of energy are the future.  our entire way of life is built upon it, and our food/water strategies are intrinsically bound up in it.

but here's a fact--there is no such thing as "green" energy.  there are only untapped reservoirs, all of which carry heavy environmental costs.  calling something "green" because the costs don't seem severe now is just perpetuating the same old problems.  people think geothermal--extracting heat--is 'free', but it is no different than extracting petroleum.  the only difference is that we haven't tapped that resource yet, so there is a big surplus right now.

don't delude yourself by assuming that what we refer to as 'alternative energy sources' are anything different than the old ones.  they're just new logs for the same old fire.
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Originally Posted By sirensong:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Maybe I am wrong but green energy is the future. Not tomorrow or next year but it's coming faster than many think. Power companies are really fighting the solar model because, the way I see it, solar will destroy profit margins if it is allowed to grow.


all forms of energy are the future.  our entire way of life is built upon it, and our food/water strategies are intrinsically bound up in it.

but here's a fact--there is no such thing as "green" energy.  there are only untapped reservoirs, all of which carry heavy environmental costs.  calling something "green" because the costs don't seem severe now is just perpetuating the same old problems.  people think geothermal--extracting heat--is 'free', but it is no different than extracting petroleum.  the only difference is that we haven't tapped that resource yet, so there is a big surplus right now.

don't delude yourself by assuming that what we refer to as 'alternative energy sources' are anything different than the old ones.  they're just new logs for the same old fire.



And add significant and quantifiable costs to the consumer.

The subsidies alone are gargantuan.

Txl
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:18:05 AM EDT

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Originally Posted By Fulminata:





Exactly, and if you're stupid enough to let politicians get involved you'd still somehow wind up running a loss from a $25 rub 'n tug shop completely staffed by Swedish nymphomaniacs right outside the front gates of Camp Pendleton.

 
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Originally Posted By Fulminata:



Originally Posted By AnticitizenOne:

It doesn't matter what the product is. If you borrow and spend like a rock star, you're going to go tits up.


Exactly, and if you're stupid enough to let politicians get involved you'd still somehow wind up running a loss from a $25 rub 'n tug shop completely staffed by Swedish nymphomaniacs right outside the front gates of Camp Pendleton.

 


Didn't the IRS take over a whore house in Nevada, and managed to run it out of business.



 
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:20:26 AM EDT
Why do people think these companies were about a product?

The company gets huge $$$ from the government in the form of a grant/loans.

The company turns around and gives large parts of that money to politicians, charities of politicians, PACs, and national parties.

After that...purpose of company is fulfilled...go bankrupt, whatever...money transfer to politicians is done.  

The purpose is moving money from the treasury to the political class...nothing more.

Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:24:00 AM EDT


At least they're filing for it at night.

Although the choice of SUNday seems like a slap in the face.


Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:29:05 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By TxLewis:



And add significant and quantifiable costs to the consumer.

The subsidies alone are gargantuan.

Txl
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Originally Posted By TxLewis:
Originally Posted By sirensong:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Maybe I am wrong but green energy is the future. Not tomorrow or next year but it's coming faster than many think. Power companies are really fighting the solar model because, the way I see it, solar will destroy profit margins if it is allowed to grow.


all forms of energy are the future.  our entire way of life is built upon it, and our food/water strategies are intrinsically bound up in it.

but here's a fact--there is no such thing as "green" energy.  there are only untapped reservoirs, all of which carry heavy environmental costs.  calling something "green" because the costs don't seem severe now is just perpetuating the same old problems.  people think geothermal--extracting heat--is 'free', but it is no different than extracting petroleum.  the only difference is that we haven't tapped that resource yet, so there is a big surplus right now.

don't delude yourself by assuming that what we refer to as 'alternative energy sources' are anything different than the old ones.  they're just new logs for the same old fire.



And add significant and quantifiable costs to the consumer.

The subsidies alone are gargantuan.

Txl


damn right.  even if someone wants to ignore the pure economics of the thing, there's still a massive amount of resources that get tied up in "renewables".  for example, PVs require a shitload of highly purified water to manufacture.  so pop greenies are robbing from peter to pay paul, and imagining that they're "saving the planet" by doing so.  

there are certainly ways that we can do a better and more efficient job of producing energy, but the current popular narrative of 'green energy' is a load of shit.  i get almost as pissed off about this as i do about water resources.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:29:56 AM EDT
Gov't subsidies must have run out gutting their "earnings".
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:34:56 AM EDT
One stock I am glad I didn't buy.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:35:29 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By sd0324:



I bet you vote for Bernie. You seem like the type. You just said you cannot afford solar and are still arguing for it. You want Bernie to GIVE you solar.... that'll show those evil rich bastards. Right?
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Originally Posted By sd0324:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Originally Posted By sd0324:
SNIP



Do you power your home and car with solar?

Nope, I also don't own a home or have the ability (legally or practically) to power my residence with solar. Same goes for my car. I cannot afford a 70k+ Tesla not do I have access to electrical hookups where I park. Residential solar and a Tesla are in my future plans for what it's worth (which isn't much).

I like the idea of residential solar because it would mean reliable power where I plan on living. As I said, I grew up with frequent power outages. I don't like relying on anyone for anything, to include the power grid. As for the Tesla, drive one and you'll understand.




Well, at least you have critical thinking.


Thanks for that insight. You're doing a great job of making an argument against solar.



I bet you vote for Bernie. You seem like the type. You just said you cannot afford solar and are still arguing for it. You want Bernie to GIVE you solar.... that'll show those evil rich bastards. Right?


Where did I say I cannot afford solar? I said I cannot afford a $70k+ Tesla. If you cannot even comprehend my simple post, how can you understand energy issues? I said I cannot legally or practically power my residence with solar. I can afford solar but I don't think my apartment building would appreciate me installing panels on the roof. Not sure who I dislike more--you spouting your nonsense or my liberal college professors spouting theirs. Same stuff, different ends of the spectrum.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:37:09 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:


Where did I say I cannot afford solar? I said I cannot afford a $70k+ Tesla. If you cannot even comprehend my simple post, how can you understand energy issues? I said I cannot legally or practically power my residence with solar. I can afford solar but I don't think my apartment building would appreciate me installing panels on the roof. Not sure who I dislike more--you spouting your nonsense or my liberal college professors spouting theirs. Same stuff, different ends of the spectrum.
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Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Originally Posted By sd0324:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Originally Posted By sd0324:
SNIP



Do you power your home and car with solar?

Nope, I also don't own a home or have the ability (legally or practically) to power my residence with solar. Same goes for my car. I cannot afford a 70k+ Tesla not do I have access to electrical hookups where I park. Residential solar and a Tesla are in my future plans for what it's worth (which isn't much).

I like the idea of residential solar because it would mean reliable power where I plan on living. As I said, I grew up with frequent power outages. I don't like relying on anyone for anything, to include the power grid. As for the Tesla, drive one and you'll understand.




Well, at least you have critical thinking.


Thanks for that insight. You're doing a great job of making an argument against solar.



I bet you vote for Bernie. You seem like the type. You just said you cannot afford solar and are still arguing for it. You want Bernie to GIVE you solar.... that'll show those evil rich bastards. Right?


Where did I say I cannot afford solar? I said I cannot afford a $70k+ Tesla. If you cannot even comprehend my simple post, how can you understand energy issues? I said I cannot legally or practically power my residence with solar. I can afford solar but I don't think my apartment building would appreciate me installing panels on the roof. Not sure who I dislike more--you spouting your nonsense or my liberal college professors spouting theirs. Same stuff, different ends of the spectrum.




I knew it,
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:40:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:42:26 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By sirensong:


damn right.  even if someone wants to ignore the pure economics of the thing, there's still a massive amount of resources that get tied up in "renewables". for example, PVs require a shitload of highly purified water to manufacture.  so pop greenies are robbing from peter to pay paul, and imagining that they're "saving the planet" by doing so.  

there are certainly ways that we can do a better and more efficient job of producing energy, but the current popular narrative of 'green energy' is a load of shit.  i get almost as pissed off about this as i do about water resources.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By sirensong:
Originally Posted By TxLewis:
Originally Posted By sirensong:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Maybe I am wrong but green energy is the future. Not tomorrow or next year but it's coming faster than many think. Power companies are really fighting the solar model because, the way I see it, solar will destroy profit margins if it is allowed to grow.


all forms of energy are the future.  our entire way of life is built upon it, and our food/water strategies are intrinsically bound up in it.

but here's a fact--there is no such thing as "green" energy.  there are only untapped reservoirs, all of which carry heavy environmental costs.  calling something "green" because the costs don't seem severe now is just perpetuating the same old problems.  people think geothermal--extracting heat--is 'free', but it is no different than extracting petroleum.  the only difference is that we haven't tapped that resource yet, so there is a big surplus right now.

don't delude yourself by assuming that what we refer to as 'alternative energy sources' are anything different than the old ones.  they're just new logs for the same old fire.



And add significant and quantifiable costs to the consumer.

The subsidies alone are gargantuan.

Txl


damn right.  even if someone wants to ignore the pure economics of the thing, there's still a massive amount of resources that get tied up in "renewables". for example, PVs require a shitload of highly purified water to manufacture.  so pop greenies are robbing from peter to pay paul, and imagining that they're "saving the planet" by doing so.  

there are certainly ways that we can do a better and more efficient job of producing energy, but the current popular narrative of 'green energy' is a load of shit.  i get almost as pissed off about this as i do about water resources.



Nice.
However, the amount of water used to produce, install, and operate photovoltaic panels is significantly lower than that needed to cool thermoelectric fossil- and fissile-power plants.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/solar/solar-energy-isnt-always-as-green-as-you-think
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 5:58:21 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Nice.
However, the amount of water used to produce, install, and operate photovoltaic panels is significantly lower than that needed to cool thermoelectric fossil- and fissile-power plants.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/solar/solar-energy-isnt-always-as-green-as-you-think





you understand the difference between consumptive and nonconsumptive use, right? powerplant cooling is primarily nonconsumptive (boiling/condensation in a closed loop), while water for manufacture is a primarily consumptive (use>contamination>disposal).  think if it as the difference between the water recirculating in your car's radiator, versus the water that runs down the drain of your shower.  

i mean, if you want to break out the LCAs on water, by all means bring 'em and we'll have a look.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:37:09 AM EDT
If the government would just use money for research for pannels that are profitable, rather than for subsidies, maybe we could get somewhere.  As long as we are spending the money anyways.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:40:01 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By McEggins:
If the government would just use money for research for pannels that are profitable, rather than for subsidies, maybe we could get somewhere.  As long as we are spending the money anyways.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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Yes, the government will figure all this out. That always works anways.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:41:35 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By whiskerz:
Based upon this success.  Let's go ahead and shut down the coal plants that work well.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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Needs a bump for effect.........sobering effect.  

Hope people like being cold or maybe it's a plan to force everyone to move to Florida and they just put up a fence along I-10.  No FEMA trains needed.  
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:44:09 AM EDT
How many coal companies have gone under? How many green companies have gone under? Green energy as a baseload generation is a bad idea. Thorium salt reactors as baseload with green as stand-by generators for the grid is a much better idea. But since this is arfcom and the earth is only 6000 years old and college is for stupid idiots. hur dur lets burn puppies and kittens and soylent green for our power.
Link Posted: 4/17/2016 6:46:43 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By TxLewis:



And add significant and quantifiable costs to the consumer.

The subsidies alone are gargantuan.

Txl
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Originally Posted By TxLewis:
Originally Posted By sirensong:
Originally Posted By SpudCrushr:
Maybe I am wrong but green energy is the future. Not tomorrow or next year but it's coming faster than many think. Power companies are really fighting the solar model because, the way I see it, solar will destroy profit margins if it is allowed to grow.


all forms of energy are the future.  our entire way of life is built upon it, and our food/water strategies are intrinsically bound up in it.

but here's a fact--there is no such thing as "green" energy.  there are only untapped reservoirs, all of which carry heavy environmental costs.  calling something "green" because the costs don't seem severe now is just perpetuating the same old problems.  people think geothermal--extracting heat--is 'free', but it is no different than extracting petroleum.  the only difference is that we haven't tapped that resource yet, so there is a big surplus right now.

don't delude yourself by assuming that what we refer to as 'alternative energy sources' are anything different than the old ones.  they're just new logs for the same old fire.



And add significant and quantifiable costs to the consumer.

The subsidies alone are gargantuan.

Txl


And let's get something clear that is always left out in these discussion. Coal and oil do not get subsidies like solar does. They get tax breaks but solar gets the same tax breaks as well, as do any companies that pay taxes.

A tax break is NOT. A subsidy.
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