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Posted: 11/25/2014 2:24:37 PM EDT
[#1]
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Yes, you can also get something between the hammer and the frame in single action. I contend both of those things are much more difficult to do than push a semi auto out of battery. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I got laughed out of a thread when I mentioned that revolvers have the advantage of not being able to be pushed out of battery at contact distances. If a revolver is gripped in such a way that the cylinder can not turn it will not fire in double action mode. Yes, you can also get something between the hammer and the frame in single action. I contend both of those things are much more difficult to do than push a semi auto out of battery. I'm a self-admitted revolver fanboy. Carrying two .44s (OWB, one on each side) as I type this. This is part of the reason for it. I'm a civvy, not LEO, and thus have a somewhat different mission. I don't pursue bad guys. If I did, I'd have a high-capacity semi-auto as my strongside carry, but I'd still have a revolver for a BUG. Cops have been carrying snub revolver BUGs for over a century. These things are not uncommon in SD scenarios: -Contact distance with BG -One arm entangled with BG -Getting injured Thus, whatever platform you prefer (wheelgun, striker-fired semi, SA semi, DA semi) you need to presume that all three of the above MAY HAPPEN in that instance when you need your gun to protect your life. Training on how to handle these non-ideal circumstances is a good idea. Carrying a BUG on the opposite side from your primary is a good idea. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 2:45:10 PM EDT
[#2]
I chose HK's LEM trigger for specifically this reason.
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:11:49 PM EDT
[#3]
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wait so DA/SA are now preferred? I've always preferred it. I choose to carry DA/SA SIGs. It's not a hindrance if you know how to shoot. Yes, I can carry free Glocks if I want to. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:14:33 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Blitz308 states he carries a 1911 STILL from what I saw on the last page or so. And a G19 at other times. I can't find the thread now that was a few days ago I started reading and skipped to the end  So even then, the victim still carries a Wilson Combat 1911 with grip safety. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: wait so DA/SA are now preferred? The hive mind is schizophrenic. Each different self defense encounter leads to people rethinking their weapon choice. How many people completely swore off anything with a grip safety after reading what happened to Blitz308? Blitz308 states he carries a 1911 STILL from what I saw on the last page or so. And a G19 at other times. I can't find the thread now that was a few days ago I started reading and skipped to the end So even then, the victim still carries a Wilson Combat 1911 with grip safety. If I carried a 1911 I'd pin/disable the grip safety or delete it altogether via "the answer".
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:17:11 PM EDT
[#5]
I am about to start EDC with a VP9 after carrying a g23 for years. The way I see it, it's just something else to train for.
Something else to consider...the event took about 60 seconds and required 13 rounds for ONE bad guy. If you don't carry a reload...think about that for a second. It also makes me re-think ammo capacity. My g23 is 13+1...the VP9 is 15+1...those two extra rounds could be life and death. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:18:17 PM EDT
[#6]
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Though this thread will go on and on, the first guy to say his slide was out of battery already solved the mystery. Why do I have a feeling the next four pages are going to be derp fueled by people who don't understand out of battery? |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:25:42 PM EDT
[#7]
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No shot two times and no clearance drill? Fail. Are you being funny? |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:27:28 PM EDT
[#8]
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Swapping out a tool on the .000000000000001% of it happening seems stupid and rash. But stupid and rash is what GD does best.....? |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:30:19 PM EDT
[#9]
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I'm guessing Brown had the slide a bit out of battery. http://i61.tinypic.com/tyvir.jpg That's some scary shit to think about. If you try and fire a Glock out of battery and it doesn't work, when the slide comes back into battery the trigger will reset. You can keep trying until you get a strike. The strike will detonate the round and cycle the action. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:30:58 PM EDT
[#10]
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If I carried a 1911 I'd pin/disable the grip safety or delete it altogether via "the answer". Quote HistoryQuoted:
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wait so DA/SA are now preferred? The hive mind is schizophrenic. Each different self defense encounter leads to people rethinking their weapon choice. How many people completely swore off anything with a grip safety after reading what happened to Blitz308? Blitz308 states he carries a 1911 STILL from what I saw on the last page or so. And a G19 at other times. I can't find the thread now that was a few days ago I started reading and skipped to the end
So even then, the victim still carries a Wilson Combat 1911 with grip safety. If I carried a 1911 I'd pin/disable the grip safety or delete it altogether via "the answer". Reading Wilson's account, at one point Brown had the pistol pointed at Wilson and it may have been a trigger pull from going off. A grip safety could have been a good thing at that point. These events are very dynamic, and subtle differences in how it goes down can radically change the outcome, or which tool would be best for the job as the events actually unfolded. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:35:10 PM EDT
[#11]
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I love my Glocks and am carrying one on duty right now. But yeah, it won't fire with the slide pushed back. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And that's why I want a second strike option on my pistol. Glock would have worked on the first trigger pull  Not if it was out of battery like his sig was  I love my Glocks and am carrying one on duty right now. But yeah, it won't fire with the slide pushed back. A Glock also won't cycle the slide if there is some pressure against the rear of the slide to keep it from unlocking when it's fired. You can put your thumb up against the rear of a Glock slide, fire it, and it won't cycle. Not sure what other pistols won't unlock, but I know Glocks won't. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:38:08 PM EDT
[#12]
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A Glock also won't cycle the slide if there is some pressure against the rear of the slide to keep it from unlocking when it's fired. You can put your thumb up against the rear of a Glock slide, fire it, and it won't cycle. Not sure what other pistols won't unlock, but I know Glocks won't. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And that's why I want a second strike option on my pistol. Glock would have worked on the first trigger pull Not if it was out of battery like his sig was I love my Glocks and am carrying one on duty right now. But yeah, it won't fire with the slide pushed back. A Glock also won't cycle the slide if there is some pressure against the rear of the slide to keep it from unlocking when it's fired. You can put your thumb up against the rear of a Glock slide, fire it, and it won't cycle. Not sure what other pistols won't unlock, but I know Glocks won't. You gotta be kinda ballsy to figure that out. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:38:21 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryNot if it was out of battery like his sig was Maybe Wilson's SIG was out of battery, or maybe there was something (like Brown's hand) obstructing the hammer. A striker fired pistol wouldn't have the second problem. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:39:20 PM EDT
[#14]
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I know he does, but many others took a different lesson from his story, even right in that thread, and definitely in subsequent conversations. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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wait so DA/SA are now preferred? The hive mind is schizophrenic. Each different self defense encounter leads to people rethinking their weapon choice. How many people completely swore off anything with a grip safety after reading what happened to Blitz308? Blitz308 states he carries a 1911 STILL from what I saw on the last page or so. And a G19 at other times. I can't find the thread now that was a few days ago I started reading and skipped to the end
So even then, the victim still carries a Wilson Combat 1911 with grip safety. I know he does, but many others took a different lesson from his story, even right in that thread, and definitely in subsequent conversations. Hey, I know what you mean. After I read about it, it reaffirmed my position against grip safeties. I own a 1911 and have carried but don't really care to anymore. I actually carry a DA/SA at times and striker fired at others This situation won't make me carry one over the other.
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:42:17 PM EDT
[#15]
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You gotta be kinda ballsy to figure that out. Only if you have the finger strength of mahatma ghandi It's not a whole lot of force otherwise you couldn't shoot it. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:46:04 PM EDT
[#16]
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So Wilson should have just let himself get knocked out because he was too close for missiles and had trouble switching to guns? I'd say the real lesson here is to learn to shoot through the door when someone is that close. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Real lesson is to never let someone get their hands on your gun. If you are hands on with someone, only pull it if you have them controlled enough that you and draw and shoot before they can grab it So Wilson should have just let himself get knocked out because he was too close for missiles and had trouble switching to guns? I'd say the real lesson here is to learn to shoot through the door when someone is that close. Ever been sucker punched when seated & belted in a car? Happened to me once. You're quite exposed, restrained, and have very little leverage. Add to that the size and strength of the guy coming through the window in this case, and you have a very, very bad position. Might it have been possible for Wilson to use his right hand to get the car in gear and move 10 feet? I don't know and I wouldn't dare say he should have. It's certainly possible he was blocked or doing so would have put bystanders at risk. If the perp didn't have a gun, it's probably what my reaction would be based on previous bad experiences. The second guy who tried it with me caught a fist full of B pillar when I goosed it forward a foot or so. High school was an exciting time.
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:47:00 PM EDT
[#17]
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I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. Revolvers are more reliable than autos. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So the lesson here is we should all carry revolvers. I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. Revolvers are more reliable than autos. A 6 year old kid can grip the cylinder on a revolver with one hand, and no one, not even you, can overcome the leverage and pull the trigger. Also, so many people have learned to shoot 5lb auto triggers that they have put weaker springs in their revolvers to make it easier to shoot and you get light strikes. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:50:36 PM EDT
[#18]
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So the lesson here is we should all carry revolvers. or something that has a DA/SA option like a SIG.... |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:52:58 PM EDT
[#19]
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or something that has a DA/SA option like a SIG.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So the lesson here is we should all carry revolvers. or something that has a DA/SA option like a SIG.... The Glock has the same double strike capability as the Sig when it comes to being out of battery. I don't see what the thread is about. Does OP just not have a Glock? |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 3:54:19 PM EDT
[#20]
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I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. Revolvers are more reliable than autos. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So the lesson here is we should all carry revolvers. I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. Revolvers are more reliable than autos. A 6 year old kid can grip the cylinder on a revolver with one hand, and no one, not even you, can overcome the leverage and pull the trigger. Also, so many people have learned to shoot 5lb auto triggers that they have put weaker springs in their revolvers to make it easier to shoot and you get light strikes. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 4:02:13 PM EDT
[#21]
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In case you're policing in the hood and let a perp trap you in a car?  Sounds as minute of a chance of happening as even needing a gun at all as a non-leo civvie.Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And that's why I want a second strike option on my pistol. In case you're policing in the hood and let a perp trap you in a car? Sounds as minute of a chance of happening as even needing a gun at all as a non-leo civvie.Car jackings do occur. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 4:24:12 PM EDT
[#22]
I have second strike capability in my Spingfield XD that I cary...
tap...rack |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 4:27:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do a clearance drill with a 290 lb dude wrestling for your gun. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No shot two times and no clearance drill? Fail. Do a clearance drill with a 290 lb dude wrestling for your gun. If this guy had been worried about his job, his schoolwork, or where his next meal was coming from, this mess would never have happened. Idle hands...  |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 4:35:53 PM EDT
[#24]
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I have second strike capability in my Spingfield XD that I cary... tap...rack I carry an XD too but I don't think he was in a situation that was feasible |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 4:41:40 PM EDT
[#25]
Wouldn't a double action only give the same result?
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Posted: 11/25/2014 5:08:50 PM EDT
[#26]
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Love me some Glock but carry an FNX as EDC for this reason. I have some very bad news for you. Your FNX is not immune from being knocked out of battery. This is all the movement of the slide needed to knock it out of battery. As Ardesructo said above, both the FNX and the Glock will fire once the slide is returned to battery. 
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Posted: 11/25/2014 5:14:36 PM EDT
[#27]
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If this guy had been worried about his job, his schoolwork, or where his next meal was coming from, this mess would never have happened. Idle hands... http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/2688595/fat-albert-o.gif Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No shot two times and no clearance drill? Fail. Do a clearance drill with a 290 lb dude wrestling for your gun. If this guy had been worried about his job, his schoolwork, or where his next meal was coming from, this mess would never have happened. Idle hands... http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/2688595/fat-albert-o.gif Most accurate post in this thread. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 5:20:28 PM EDT
[#28]
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I'm game.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Let's all go buy Sigs today. I'm game. Sig really should capitalize on this. "P229: The Official Handgun of the Ferguson Riots"
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Posted: 11/25/2014 5:59:17 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do I have a feeling the next four pages are going to be derp fueled by people who don't understand out of battery? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Though this thread will go on and on, the first guy to say his slide was out of battery already solved the mystery. Why do I have a feeling the next four pages are going to be derp fueled by people who don't understand out of battery? My TV remote runs out of battery sometimes. Isn't that what we're talking about?
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Posted: 11/25/2014 6:01:28 PM EDT
[#30]
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My TV remote runs out of battery sometimes. Isn't that what we're talking about? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Though this thread will go on and on, the first guy to say his slide was out of battery already solved the mystery. Why do I have a feeling the next four pages are going to be derp fueled by people who don't understand out of battery? My TV remote runs out of battery sometimes. Isn't that what we're talking about? Dude, you're doing something wrong. I've had the same battery in my TV remote for like 5 years. I believe the batteries will outlast the TV! |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 6:02:30 PM EDT
[#31]
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My TV remote runs out of battery sometimes. Isn't that what we're talking about? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Though this thread will go on and on, the first guy to say his slide was out of battery already solved the mystery. Why do I have a feeling the next four pages are going to be derp fueled by people who don't understand out of battery? My TV remote runs out of battery sometimes. Isn't that what we're talking about? Sometimes I need to punch "guide" several times before it will come up on the TV. That's pretty much like a second strike capability right? |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 6:31:42 PM EDT
[#32]
Alien Gear Holsters took this event as an opportunity to bash Sig for reliability on their facebook.
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Posted: 11/25/2014 6:40:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Think about this scenario before selling out on a double strike capability: My primary firearm fails to fire due to an out of battery slide. The offender wrestles the gun from my grip and pulls the trigger. Do you still want that double strike capability? This is why we carry secondary weapons in the event of a primary failure. There truly are two sides to every coin. meh, if the bad guy gets your gun, your likely fucked. That's a pretty small hook to hang your hat on.
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Posted: 11/25/2014 6:48:29 PM EDT
[#34]
A small amount of bad news for the revolver crowd too:
In a similar situation, with a gentle giant fumblebucking with you and your unholstered weapon, even a revolver is not immune. The little reloady thumb thingy could get pulled in the tussle. Cylinder swings out and rounds go thumpity-thump-thump-thump all over the floor of your patrol car and you are truly fucked. The best gun to lose control of in a tussle with a bad guy is..... |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 6:50:59 PM EDT
[#35]
I like Revolvers...they go BANG! Everytime
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Posted: 11/25/2014 6:51:01 PM EDT
[#36]
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Alien Gear Holsters took this event as an opportunity to bash Sig for reliability on their facebook. A firearms accessory manufacturer that doesn't know shit about firearms. Sweet, I'll be buying from them. 
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Posted: 11/25/2014 6:55:34 PM EDT
[#37]
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I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. Revolvers are more reliable than autos. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So the lesson here is we should all carry revolvers. I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. Revolvers are more reliable than autos. When a revolver jams its jammed up and you're dead. Not so with a semi auto. In this day I don't think a revolver is any more reliable than a semi auto. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 6:57:02 PM EDT
[#38]
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A thread of derp from Glock fanboys?!? What is this world coming to? At least they don't pay $200 for gay ass designer jeans |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 7:00:12 PM EDT
[#39]
I wonder what ammo the department got for him?
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Posted: 11/25/2014 7:00:37 PM EDT
[#40]
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When a revolver jams its jammed up and you're dead. Not so with a semi auto. In this day I don't think a revolver is any more reliable than a semi auto. I think it is more accurate to say their malfunction profile is very different. A good semi will win a mud or sand test hands down, but an average revolver is much more ammo tolerant. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 7:02:06 PM EDT
[#41]
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A small amount of bad news for the revolver crowd too: In a similar situation, with a gentle giant fumblebucking with you and your unholstered weapon, even a revolver is not immune. The little reloady thumb thingy could get pulled in the tussle. Cylinder swings out and rounds go thumpity-thump-thump-thump all over the floor of your patrol car and you are truly fucked. The best gun to lose control of in a tussle with a bad guy is..... Can also drop a mag on a semi, which in some cases disable the gun (mag safety). |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 7:04:36 PM EDT
[#42]
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meh, if the bad guy gets your gun, your likely fucked. That's a pretty small hook to hang your hat on. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Think about this scenario before selling out on a double strike capability: My primary firearm fails to fire due to an out of battery slide. The offender wrestles the gun from my grip and pulls the trigger. Do you still want that double strike capability? This is why we carry secondary weapons in the event of a primary failure. There truly are two sides to every coin. meh, if the bad guy gets your gun, your likely fucked. That's a pretty small hook to hang your hat on. I don't think he's hanging his hat on that, he's pointing out that it can go either way, and carry a backup . . . |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 7:04:55 PM EDT
[#43]
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Alien Gear Holsters took this event as an opportunity to bash Sig for reliability on their facebook. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Alien Gear Holsters took this event as an opportunity to bash Sig for reliability on their facebook. You mean this post from 3 hours ago? According to hist statement, Officer Darren Wilson's Sig P229 jammed on him twice during his altercation with Michael Brown. Anyone else experience frequent jams or problems with this Sig model? |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 7:19:29 PM EDT
[#44]
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Can also drop a mag on a semi, which in some cases disable the gun (mag safety). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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A small amount of bad news for the revolver crowd too: In a similar situation, with a gentle giant fumblebucking with you and your unholstered weapon, even a revolver is not immune. The little reloady thumb thingy could get pulled in the tussle. Cylinder swings out and rounds go thumpity-thump-thump-thump all over the floor of your patrol car and you are truly fucked. The best gun to lose control of in a tussle with a bad guy is..... Can also drop a mag on a semi, which in some cases disable the gun (mag safety). Yup, you enhanced my point for me. Once you lose control of the gun, it's all hair-splitting. flip-of-the-coin as to how bad the perp will fuck your gun and how long it will take you to recover from that. Training only goes so far when the mag drops out of reach at the same time the bad guy puts the gun OOB far enough to jam the one remaining round. It's possible the revolver has some slight advantage in normal-ops, due to simplicity-induced reliability, but there's always bad ammo and busted firing pins. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 7:23:12 PM EDT
[#45]
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You gotta be kinda ballsy to figure that out. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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A Glock also won't cycle the slide if there is some pressure against the rear of the slide to keep it from unlocking when it's fired. You can put your thumb up against the rear of a Glock slide, fire it, and it won't cycle. Not sure what other pistols won't unlock, but I know Glocks won't. You gotta be kinda ballsy to figure that out. AFAIK all semis will do this. I had a progressive CCW instructor. We got to do contact shots, and that was one of the drills to keep the gun in battery. I used an XD, he pointed out the longer guide rod to the class during this portion as well
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Posted: 11/25/2014 7:56:38 PM EDT
[#46]
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I wonder what ammo the department got for him? It appears to be 180 gr Federal HSTs from the pics |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 7:58:53 PM EDT
[#47]
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You mean this post from 3 hours ago? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Alien Gear Holsters took this event as an opportunity to bash Sig for reliability on their facebook. You mean this post from 3 hours ago? According to hist statement, Officer Darren Wilson's Sig P229 jammed on him twice during his altercation with Michael Brown. Anyone else experience frequent jams or problems with this Sig model? Yes. |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 8:15:48 PM EDT
[#48]
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Yes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Alien Gear Holsters took this event as an opportunity to bash Sig for reliability on their facebook. You mean this post from 3 hours ago? According to hist statement, Officer Darren Wilson's Sig P229 jammed on him twice during his altercation with Michael Brown. Anyone else experience frequent jams or problems with this Sig model? Yes. Would you point about the bashing part of that for me? |
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Posted: 11/25/2014 8:22:03 PM EDT
[#49]
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Nah. But if someone started cranking these out by next week they could sell a shit load of them here 
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/ChrisV196/ARF%20junk/glock-upright_zpsm5noqflm.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Let's all go buy Sigs today. Nah. But if someone started cranking these out by next week they could sell a shit load of them here
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c55/ChrisV196/ARF%20junk/glock-upright_zpsm5noqflm.jpg Meh, Sig already did it. 
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Posted: 11/25/2014 8:28:37 PM EDT
[#50]
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Would you point about the bashing part of that for me? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Alien Gear Holsters took this event as an opportunity to bash Sig for reliability on their facebook. You mean this post from 3 hours ago? According to hist statement, Officer Darren Wilson's Sig P229 jammed on him twice during his altercation with Michael Brown. Anyone else experience frequent jams or problems with this Sig model? Yes. Would you point about the bashing part of that for me? The basis of the question was loaded. At least that's how it read to me. Any gun guy (like a holster manufacturer) should be able to articulate the difference between a "jam" (a nebulous description of a malfunction in it's firing cycle) and a failure to fire. Their summary of Officer Darren's comments is incorrect in it's basis, and so the question is being skewed in a negative direction. This anecdote is a great opportunity to talk about stand-off devices, double-strike capability, guns being out of battery, contact shots, etc... But the question was "Officer Wilson's gun jammed a bunch. Who else has had your Sig jam a bunch?" |
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