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Posted: 9/5/2008 5:06:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2008 5:46:44 AM EST by Paveway_]
Edit 5: For clarity

Scenario: Beyond your normal HD issues. It is requesting a personal defense weapon - meaning the subject may not be at home when it is needed. However it is not CCW specific. The event could be a major hurricane, earth quake, zombies or red dawn. Point being it is a SHTF event even on a minor scale

Maintance: The person may or may not live alone or away from a gun person who can function as a trainer/armorer. Since there is some "event" happening, you might have an afternoon to train the person on whatever weapon you select.

Subject: These would be the people that need a PDW that are not young/strong/willing enough to have an AR to tote around.

I used the PDW term intentionally. It is the term for weapon's specifically designed for non-combat troops - the combat troops carrying rifles; it is usually beyond a pistol, but not always and it favors easy of training/use among non-gun military people. Apply the concept to the civilian world.

Just because I ask questions/make comments doesn't mean I disagree, I'm just trying to think out the limitations of whatever selection you are advocating...you know foster discussion etc...

For whatever scenario...

Obviously low cost options are what this poll is all about.

Non-gun means they will most likely refuse training until after the "event" has happened...

Edit: Non-gun also means smaller framed women and/or older women/men.

Edit2: this person/s will not necessarily be living alone or far away from a gun person - perhaps next door for example.

I also would like lethal options.

Scenario: beyond normal hunky dory self defense - how far and what scenario is up to you.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:09:11 AM EST
can't go wrong with an SKS and a few bando's in the closet. its good for what ails them.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:09:47 AM EST
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:10:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:10:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2008 5:13:16 AM EST by jfrankparnell]
i'd say sks or ak, with a slight nod to the ak for possibly being easier to re-load.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:11:42 AM EST
.460 Wby Mag with a pistol grip stock and a 16" barrel!
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:12:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.



Same here. If you're looking for a gun for a non-gun person, a 4" .357mag is hard to beat.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:13:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By mr0w1:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.



Same here. If you're looking for a gun for a non-gun person, a 4" .357mag is hard to beat.


How the hell will they hit anything with it?
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:13:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2008 5:14:27 AM EST by Bob1984]
SKS or pistol-caliber carbine. M1 Carbine is also a worthy choice.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:13:26 AM EST
M1 carbine-doesn't look scary and throws down with double the ft. lbs. of a .357 Magnum.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:13:39 AM EST
Yup, 4" S&W 686+
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:14:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By crurifragium:
M1 carbine-doesn't look scary and throws down with double the ft. lbs. of a .357 Magnum.


Didn't remember the M1, good call...
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:14:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By crurifragium:
M1 carbine-doesn't look scary and throws down with double the ft. lbs. of a .357 Magnum.


Lite, fast and simple. +1
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:16:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.


same here
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:16:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
If for a non-gun person, get a civilian Taser. They are available, and I believe the deliver a stronger/longer jolt than the LEO version.



Tasers don't stop zombies or looters in groups. It is a one shot "weapon"...what do you do once you take off the juice - now that small framed person has to get closer to some how tie them up.

Assume they are in their own dwelling and can't really flee...
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:17:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.


Agreed.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:18:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By mr0w1:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.



Same here. If you're looking for a gun for a non-gun person, a 4" .357mag is hard to beat.



Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.


same here



Originally Posted By ORinTX:
Yup, 4" S&W 686+


If they train very little if at all with it, how are these people supposed to be good enough to hit anything beyond 20 feet with a pistol?
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:18:15 AM EST
Your senario leaves too much info out.

Are you talking SHTF long term type situation where you will be facing MZB's? or just for general home defense? Or survival. Plus the type/size of the person would be a huge consideration.

A recommendation for a 5'1" 105 pound woman is going to be different than a 6'1" 180 pound man. I have seen people recommend a pistol grip 12 gauge to the tiny woman as being the best because they don't have to aim. That is BAD advise.

Is it going to be for defense, survival etc? For survival and only 1 gun a .22lr rifle or 12 ga. would be the best all round as it can fill many roles.

For self defense everyday stuff Revolver. I voted pistol in the poll.

Your choices and explanation leave much out. I give you 2/10
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:20:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By mr0w1:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.



Same here. If you're looking for a gun for a non-gun person, a 4" .357mag is hard to beat.



Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.


same here



Originally Posted By ORinTX:
Yup, 4" S&W 686+


If they train very little if at all with it, how are these people supposed to be good enough to hit anything beyond 20 feet with a pistol?



If they train very little, how are they supposed to hit anything beyond 20 feet with a rifle?

Thankfully most defensive scenarios happen closer than 20 feet. But the point is that a gun only improves your odds, and the degree by which they are improved is greatly affected by how proficient you are with one. A long gun isn't going to magically change that.

I choose the 4" wheel gun because it is one of the simplest guns there is. It is unlikely to jam, it is very reliable, and the operator need do nothing other than pick it up and pull the trigger.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:20:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2008 5:23:45 AM EST by mr0w1]

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By mr0w1:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.



Same here. If you're looking for a gun for a non-gun person, a 4" .357mag is hard to beat.


How the hell will they hit anything with it?


Same way you hit something with a rifle or a shotgun -- you point it at the target and pull the trigger. Any gun is going to require at least some familiarization and practice to use effectively.

I've watched someone miss a pumpkin from less than two feet away with a shotgun, and the pumpkin wasn't even trying to kill or rape him. This person also has at least a very beginner's level of experience with a gun. As O_P says, rifles/shotguns are rifles/shotguns, and handguns are handguns, but ANY gun requires some proficiency.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:21:38 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:21:58 AM EST
Another vote for U.S. Carbine, Cal. .30, M1. I used one as my HD weapon for awhile, my dad still uses one.

Light, small, little recoil, good sights (assuming the later adjustable sight), shoulders naturally.

-Mark
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:22:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2008 5:22:30 AM EST by VBC]
Semi-automatic .22 rifle. Ruger, Marlin or Remington.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:22:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By mr0w1:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.



Same here. If you're looking for a gun for a non-gun person, a 4" .357mag is hard to beat.



Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.


same here



Originally Posted By ORinTX:
Yup, 4" S&W 686+


If they train very little if at all with it, how are these people supposed to be good enough to hit anything beyond 20 feet with a pistol?


Most self defense situations are 7-10' I believe. A firearm is easy to learn how to use and effective with little practice. Training just makes you BETTER, but the basics at close range are not that difficult to pick up.

I am a firm believer in proper training. I take as many classes as I can and practice as much as I can. But this is a thought process the anti's try to use against us making learning and using guns akin to rocket science and best left to LEO/Military.

Learning the basics can be taught in a very short time. Being GOOD at them is a life time of practice and training.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:23:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By ORinTX:

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By mr0w1:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.



Same here. If you're looking for a gun for a non-gun person, a 4" .357mag is hard to beat.



Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.


same here



Originally Posted By ORinTX:
Yup, 4" S&W 686+


If they train very little if at all with it, how are these people supposed to be good enough to hit anything beyond 20 feet with a pistol?



If they train very little, how are they supposed to hit anything beyond 20 feet with a rifle?

Thankfully most defensive scenarios happen closer than 20 feet. But the point is that a gun only improves your odds, and the degree by which they are improved is greatly affected by how proficient you are with one. A long gun isn't going to magically change that.

I choose the 4" wheel gun because it is one of the simplest guns there is. It is unlikely to jam, it is very reliable, and the operator need do nothing other than pick it up and pull the trigger.


Long guns are inherently more natural to aim. Shouldering the weapon forces the basic concept of aiming - not so with a pistol, which many hollywood educated people may shoot from the hip.

Put a dot sight on the long gun and one can get someone to be decent enough out to 50 yards, maybe 10 yards. Even putting a laser on a handgun doesn't produce the same result since a handgun is inherently more difficult to keep stable, grip correctly etc.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:23:34 AM EST
If its a non-gun person (thinks of GF....) I would vote something with a buttstock for ease of aiming.

I'd go a Kel-Tec sub2000, folds up nice and small, 30rd 9mm magazines available... as long as she understands how to put a mag in and chamber a round, she'd be good.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:23:50 AM EST
For a non gun person I'd say a revoler in a Caliber like 38 Spl. I know folks here like big meat and potato weapons but you can't beat a revolver for simplicity and reliability.

The training really should be done but if they are too stupid to get that point then at least a revolver is easy to teach and won't be "obnoxious" to a new user.

Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:23:54 AM EST
Single shot shotgun, with an elastic shell holder on the stock.

VERY simple (break open, put in shell, close, cock, fire).

Inexpensive (less than $100).

Deadly.

Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:25:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By mr0w1:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.



Same here. If you're looking for a gun for a non-gun person, a 4" .357mag is hard to beat.


How the hell will they hit anything with it?


Huh? If you are talking recoil depends on the person which is why I went for 38 spl but a 4 inch revolver even a snubnose is accurate enough for home defense.

I don't know where folks get this notion that a snub nose is innaccurate at home distances.

4inch is PLENTY. Hell most pistols have around a 4 inch barrel.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:26:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Long guns are inherently more natural to aim. Shouldering the weapon forces the basic concept of aiming - not so with a pistol, which many hollywood educated people may shoot from the hip.


Long guns are also significantly less wieldy indoors.

Additionally, for non-gun people, handguns live in dresser drawers and on nightstands -- long guns live in the back of the closet. It's worth noting.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:27:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:
For a non gun person I'd say a revoler in a Caliber like 38 Spl. I know folks here like big meat and potato weapons but you can't beat a revolver for simplicity and reliability.

The training really should be done but if they are too stupid to get that point then at least a revolver is easy to teach and won't be "obnoxious" to a new user.



I'm more worried about training to hit something than maintenance training. Handguns are very hard to use with no training beyond across the room distances even with a laser/dot optic on them...
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:27:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By mr0w1:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.



Same here. If you're looking for a gun for a non-gun person, a 4" .357mag is hard to beat.


How the hell will they hit anything with it?


Huh? If you are talking recoil depends on the person which is why I went for 38 spl but a 4 inch revolver even a snubnose is accurate enough for home defense.

I don't know where folks get this notion that a snub nose is innaccurate at home distances.

4inch is PLENTY. Hell most pistols have around a 4 inch barrel.


Who said it was home defense distances?

It isn't the gun or the barrel length, it is the shooter which makes me question the accuracy.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:28:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By crurifragium:
M1 carbine-doesn't look scary and throws down with double the ft. lbs. of a .357 Magnum.


Didn't remember the M1, good call...


IMHO since a person is not going to train that immediately gets rid of anything semi auto.

Maintenance and immediate action drills for a semi auto are way too complicated for someone not willing to practice a lot with it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:28:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Long guns are inherently more natural to aim. Shouldering the weapon forces the basic concept of aiming - not so with a pistol, which many hollywood educated people may shoot from the hip.

Put a dot sight on the long gun and one can get someone to be decent enough out to 50 yards, maybe 10 yards. Even putting a laser on a handgun doesn't produce the same result since a handgun is inherently more difficult to keep stable, grip correctly etc.



I think the two of us have had vastly different experiences with "non gun" people handling guns. Most people that I've seen, women in particular, do not even shoulder a long gun until they've been taught how. They hold it next to their side, with the butt under their shoulder. The premise here is we're talking about somebody with little to no shooting experience.

I also can not think of a single long gun which is as simple to operate as a wheel gun. We're talking about somebody who is not going to be remember where the selector is or how to charge the gun, and is not going to know how to clear a malfunction.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:29:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By mr0w1:

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Long guns are inherently more natural to aim. Shouldering the weapon forces the basic concept of aiming - not so with a pistol, which many hollywood educated people may shoot from the hip.


Long guns are also significantly less wieldy indoors.

Additionally, for non-gun people, handguns live in dresser drawers and on nightstands -- long guns live in the back of the closet. It's worth noting.


Yet the AR is the HD weapon of choice on here. A carbine of whatever flavor isn't that much more unwieldy than a handgun held in firing position out away from your body.

Keeping/storing the gun isn't relevant.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:31:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By crurifragium:
M1 carbine-doesn't look scary and throws down with double the ft. lbs. of a .357 Magnum.


Didn't remember the M1, good call...


IMHO since a person is not going to train that immediately gets rid of anything semi auto.

Maintenance and immediate action drills for a semi auto are way too complicated for someone not willing to practice a lot with it.


I only said they wouldn't train until after something has happened.

This really isn't a every day CCW/HD weapon selection. Say a hurricane roles through. They might come over to your house. You might have an afternoon to instruct them.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:31:58 AM EST
I still can't believe the shotgun is winning...
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:32:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:
For a non gun person I'd say a revoler in a Caliber like 38 Spl. I know folks here like big meat and potato weapons but you can't beat a revolver for simplicity and reliability.

The training really should be done but if they are too stupid to get that point then at least a revolver is easy to teach and won't be "obnoxious" to a new user.



I'm more worried about training to hit something than maintenance training. Handguns are very hard to use with no training beyond across the room distances even with a laser/dot optic on them...


If they can't do maintenance they can't do immediate action if it binds up and lack of maintenance almost guarantees it binds up. Vicious circle.

A 1 shot semi auto rifle or pistol is worthless.

Simple fact is a semi auto weapon takes training. If the person is unwilling to make immediate action second nature to them then there is no way they should get a semi of any type.

At household distances you can get away with minute of moose accuracy.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:32:24 AM EST
38 Special revolver. It's simple to load. It's easy to shoot. Recoil is low, and the first level failure drills involve pulling the trigger again. Too many women can't rack the slide on a semi auto, and if it jams/fails lack of experience will mean they won't know how to clear it.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:33:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:
For a non gun person I'd say a revoler in a Caliber like 38 Spl. I know folks here like big meat and potato weapons but you can't beat a revolver for simplicity and reliability.

The training really should be done but if they are too stupid to get that point then at least a revolver is easy to teach and won't be "obnoxious" to a new user.



I'm more worried about training to hit something than maintenance training. Handguns are very hard to use with no training beyond across the room distances even with a laser/dot optic on them...


If they can't do maintenance they can't do immediate action if it binds up and lack of maintenance almost guarantees it binds up. Vicious circle.

A 1 shot semi auto rifle or pistol is worthless.

Simple fact is a semi auto weapon takes training. If the person is unwilling to make immediate action second nature to them then there is no way they should get a semi of any type.

At household distances you can get away with minute of moose accuracy.



This really isn't a every day CCW/HD weapon selection. Say a hurricane roles through. They might come over to your house. You might have an afternoon to instruct them.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:34:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2008 5:37:13 AM EST by mr0w1]

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By mr0w1:

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Long guns are inherently more natural to aim. Shouldering the weapon forces the basic concept of aiming - not so with a pistol, which many hollywood educated people may shoot from the hip.


Long guns are also significantly less wieldy indoors.

Additionally, for non-gun people, handguns live in dresser drawers and on nightstands -- long guns live in the back of the closet. It's worth noting.


Yet the AR is the HD weapon of choice on here. A carbine of whatever flavor isn't that much more unwieldy than a handgun held in firing position out away from your body.

Keeping/storing the gun isn't relevant.


I think your first point could be argued.

Your second point most certainly can be -- seconds matter when you need a PDW, and if having a handgun makes it more likely that you'll get to it in time versus a rifle, then the handgun is a better choice. In my opinion, of course. It's just my experience that handguns tend to live in easily accessible places, and rifles/shotguns get shoved to the back corner of the closet.


ETA: I'd like to add that my argument is coming from a "this person only has one gun at all, ever" point of view. Obviously the real answer here is "get both". I feel like if a person is going to only have one gun at all, and they aren't a gun person, a 4" .357 is the most versatile and the way to go.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:35:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2008 5:54:53 AM EST by Fearlessleader01]
AK-74 or a Glock 19.

Both are stupid easy to use, low recoil relatively speaking, require little to no maintainance, and are very reliable.

If I was to hand someone with little to no experience thats what I would choose, more likely the AK-74 first. Long arms are a lot more natural once someone is told how to use the stock.

ETA: After reading the revised question I stand by my original answer.

To quote Lord of War about the AK platform "It doesn't break, jam, or overheat. It'll shoot whether it's covered in mud or filled with sand. It's so easy, even a child can use it; and they do."
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:37:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/5/2008 5:38:31 AM EST by BadShovelhead]

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By mr0w1:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.



Same here. If you're looking for a gun for a non-gun person, a 4" .357mag is hard to beat.


How the hell will they hit anything with it?


Huh? If you are talking recoil depends on the person which is why I went for 38 spl but a 4 inch revolver even a snubnose is accurate enough for home defense.

I don't know where folks get this notion that a snub nose is innaccurate at home distances.

4inch is PLENTY. Hell most pistols have around a 4 inch barrel.


Who said it was home defense distances?

It isn't the gun or the barrel length, it is the shooter which makes me question the accuracy.


Ok look many of us have tried to tell you what we think based on the very loose definition so don't throw in new issues based on how we reply.

-If this is a non gun person that is unwilling to train I think it is pretty safe to assume this person won't be carrying concealed since that requires training.

- Will this person be chasing people down the block with the gun for giggles?

Reality is your description left no room for a situation outside of the home or in a store if it is to guard a small biz. Sorry but the original criteria pretty much puts this as HD only.

So in reality the original post boxed this in to a HD/store type situation

If you are implying that an untrained person will be carrying a firearm outside of the home you probably should convince that person to get their act together.

ETA: Yes the accuracy of the person matters but so does barrel length but not so much at HD distances.

Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:37:56 AM EST

Revolver in a caliber that is effective, yet won't make them afraid to fire.

Throw a set of laser grips on. It will instill some confidence in the person

Six shots with six pulls of a trigger, no malfunction drills to be learned.

Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:41:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:41:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By mr0w1:

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
I voted pistol, but really meant revolver.



Same here. If you're looking for a gun for a non-gun person, a 4" .357mag is hard to beat.


How the hell will they hit anything with it?


Huh? If you are talking recoil depends on the person which is why I went for 38 spl but a 4 inch revolver even a snubnose is accurate enough for home defense.

I don't know where folks get this notion that a snub nose is innaccurate at home distances.

4inch is PLENTY. Hell most pistols have around a 4 inch barrel.


Who said it was home defense distances?

It isn't the gun or the barrel length, it is the shooter which makes me question the accuracy.


Ok look many of us have tried to tell you what we think based on the very loose definition so don't throw in new issues based on how we reply.

-If this is a non gun person that is unwilling to train I think it is pretty safe to assume this person won't be carrying concealed since that requires training.

- Will this person be chasing people down the block with the gun for giggles?

Reality is your description left no room for a situation outside of the home or in a store if it is to guard a small biz. Sorry but the original criteria pretty much puts this as HD only.

So in reality the original post boxed this in to a HD/store type situation

If you are implying that an untrained person will be carrying a firearm outside of the home you probably should convince that person to get their act together.

ETA: Yes the accuracy of the person matters but so does barrel length but not so much at HD distances.



see the first post, updated it
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:41:36 AM EST
I'm confused, paveway.

You posed a question and are arguing with most that answer. If you already have a strong opinion on the matter, what are you asking us for?
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:43:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By ORinTX:
I'm confused, paveway.

You posed a question and are arguing with most that answer. If you already have a strong opinion on the matter, what are you asking us for?


To justify your position; just because I argue doesn't mean I disagree. It isn't arguing anyway, it is a discussion
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:43:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By BadShovelhead:
For a non gun person I'd say a revoler in a Caliber like 38 Spl. I know folks here like big meat and potato weapons but you can't beat a revolver for simplicity and reliability.

The training really should be done but if they are too stupid to get that point then at least a revolver is easy to teach and won't be "obnoxious" to a new user.



I'm more worried about training to hit something than maintenance training. Handguns are very hard to use with no training beyond across the room distances even with a laser/dot optic on them...


If they can't do maintenance they can't do immediate action if it binds up and lack of maintenance almost guarantees it binds up. Vicious circle.

A 1 shot semi auto rifle or pistol is worthless.

Simple fact is a semi auto weapon takes training. If the person is unwilling to make immediate action second nature to them then there is no way they should get a semi of any type.

At household distances you can get away with minute of moose accuracy.



This really isn't a every day CCW/HD weapon selection. Say a hurricane roles through. They might come over to your house. You might have an afternoon to instruct them.


An afternoon is not nearly enough time to develop muscle memory and skill to do immediate action. It just isn't. It takes a lot of training to develop the ability to run through a drill automatically if the pistol or rifle has a malfunction especially when the person is under pressure.

You keep changing the scenario to direct the answer to what you want to hear. This is sort of like playing a game and adding new rules as you go.

To get a better more realistic reaction maybe add all the new criteria to the original post.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:49:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By ORinTX:
I'm confused, paveway.

You posed a question and are arguing with most that answer. If you already have a strong opinion on the matter, what are you asking us for?


To justify your position; just because I argue doesn't mean I disagree. It isn't arguing anyway, it is a discussion



Understood. Well much of my position is along the lines of what badshovelhead is saying. I don't think that a semi auto of any sort is a good choice for somebody who isn't going to train.

I would suggest, as I already have, a good wheel gun. Second to that, with a little bit of training would be a pump shotgun. The key to that one would be teaching her to cycle the action thoroughly, not short stroking it. Only with quite a bit more experience would I recommend an autoloader.
Link Posted: 9/5/2008 5:55:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By ORinTX:

Originally Posted By Paveway_:

Originally Posted By ORinTX:
I'm confused, paveway.

You posed a question and are arguing with most that answer. If you already have a strong opinion on the matter, what are you asking us for?


To justify your position; just because I argue doesn't mean I disagree. It isn't arguing anyway, it is a discussion



Understood. Well much of my position is along the lines of what badshovelhead is saying. I don't think that a semi auto of any sort is a good choice for somebody who isn't going to train.

I would suggest, as I already have, a good wheel gun. Second to that, with a little bit of training would be a pump shotgun. The key to that one would be teaching her to cycle the action thoroughly, not short stroking it. Only with quite a bit more experience would I recommend an autoloader.


I'm not really worried about semiauto aspect, but the pistol aspect. You could still go with a pump/lever pistol caliber gun if going to a long gun.

With a handgun you are limiting the effective range to across the room distances, even with some sort of aiming device (dot/laser). What about across the yard distances - by this I mean a smaller suburbia yard?



IIRC wasn't there a post on here where a gunshop employee had a woman walk in the door wanting a HD weapon. They took her out back and handed her a revolver with a crimson trace grip and had her shoot; then handed her a shotgun; then an AR with a dot sight. She was most effective with the AR - I think missing with the other two weapons.

I can't remember the details. It had pictures of the targets as well....
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