User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
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Posted: 2/11/2006 1:07:42 PM EDT
[#1]
Kabump, cause I think it might not be a dupe.
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Posted: 2/11/2006 1:09:01 PM EDT
[#2]
think again we pretty well coverd it. but it fell out of interst due to lack of info on the posible guns, for it, the Shot show hasen't shown squat in ways of the JCP |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 1:10:21 PM EDT
[#3]
Well the original UNEDITTED POST was asking where the topic would be. Nobody replied. Do you happen to have a link? |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 1:11:41 PM EDT
[#4]
I will try to find one of them,
looking in the archive now. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 1:13:01 PM EDT
[#5]
i'm surprised they aren't just switching to .40 like many (most?) LE agencies.
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Posted: 2/11/2006 1:15:30 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 2/11/2006 1:15:39 PM EDT
[#7]
THe .40S&W isn't a NATO round for one thing. The .45ACP still is. Second, the .40S&W isn't as good a round as the .45ACP...........(will wait for the shitstorm) |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 1:26:14 PM EDT
[#8]
The JCP is most likely going to be a SOCOM-wide pistol, not a general issue pistol to replace the M9.
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Posted: 2/11/2006 1:34:11 PM EDT
[#9]
SOCOM is not the same thing as the entire military. They get to be "exceptions." The bulk of the forces will continue with the M9.
As you probably know, the HK USP 45 Compact (with extended, threaded barrel ala the Tactical) was adopted as the Mk23 Mod1 by the Navy a year or so, as few ever liked the huge Mk23 Mod0.   Of course, their options were limited to existing contract vendors, so they couldn't choose just anything without extensive trials and bidding. -Troy |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 1:34:54 PM EDT
[#10]
With the return to .45ACP, those of you who are in good with your CO might be able to carry a 1911 if you so desire. I've heard of folks in the military getting to carry their own 9mm (like a CZ or something) instead of the issue one if they're head honcho approves it.
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Posted: 2/11/2006 1:39:20 PM EDT
[#11]
I think General Orders in theater prevent use or possession of privately owned weapons or ammo. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:05:34 PM EDT
[#12]
Why not the Springfield XD in .45ACP? All it needs to meet those reqs is a threaded bbl.
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:06:46 PM EDT
[#13]
This is why H&K has developed the HK-45...
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:10:29 PM EDT
[#14]
The US Military Going Back To .45
1911 I hope.    |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:12:09 PM EDT
[#15]
I like the 1911, but the HK USP45 would be a better choice. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:13:46 PM EDT
[#16]
What will they do with the M9's, will we be able to buy them up at a good price?
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:14:47 PM EDT
[#17]
'Bout damn time.
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:16:17 PM EDT
[#18]
store them or cut them like the 1911 they had to put down. And plus trust me you do not want a M9 especially one that the Army doesn't want... |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:16:42 PM EDT
[#19]
Actually it looks like the entire military, not just SOCOM. "After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol" |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:23:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Not going to happen. Not anytime soon anyway. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:28:01 PM EDT
[#21]
Wrong!!! The very reason that this is big news is because it will mean the .45 will return as a general issued weapon. The "JCP" stands for "Joint Common Pistol" and, as the name implies, it is a joint venture between the Conventional and the Special Operations elements within the U.S. Military. The JCP program was born and is the result of two (formally separate) pistol programs that were running back around the latter part of 2004. One program was initially intended only for the conventional forces and the other was intended only for SOCOM. As it turned out, the requirements for both programs (including specified caliber) were very similar to each other so, in the interest of saving time, money and resources (not to mention logistical headaches) both separate programs were joined together into one program that is now known as the JCP. What this means, in a nutshell, is that the .45 ACP is coming back into the U.S. Military as a general issued weapon. Bye bye 9mm and hello (again) .45 ACP. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:29:25 PM EDT
[#22]
There has been debate on the matter since the M9 program was announced.
It could be another program that goes the way of the XM-8 project.... |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:31:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Yep, it'll be the standard sidearm to the OICW, or the XM8, or maybe a 6.8SPC M4...  This will be something SOCOM gets and everyone else will use the M9. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:35:42 PM EDT
[#24]
Looking at the estimated quantities in the solicitation, 600K with external safety and 45 no external safety, I think it would be safe to assume that these are going to be issued beyond that of SOCOM units. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:37:37 PM EDT
[#25]
Key word there is "estimated." I'll get excited when Crane starts contacting units asking for M9s for exchange, not until then. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:51:54 PM EDT
[#26]
 Springer makes a double stack, as does ParaOrdinance. If it ain't broke...don't fix it! |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:53:55 PM EDT
[#27]
Contrary to what you may think I'm not making any of this stuff up. Everything that I have said thus far can be proven. I even have a copy (on my hard drive) of one of the original handgun programs. There were two seperate programs and one was known as the FHS or the "Future Handgun System" and it was being coordinated by the U.S. Army Tank and Automotive Command. The original FHS proposal was made on 10-01-2004 and the initial deadline was listed to be on 11-01-2004. Again, I have a copy of it on my hard-drive and I am willing to cut and paste (with links included) in order to provide evidence of my claims. However, the caveat to the links is that they are, for all practical purposes, dead because the FHS, as it used to be known, was joined to the (formally sepaerate) SOCOM (whose original program name I have since forgotten) pistol program and both programs became known as the JCP or Joint Common Pistol Program. FBO DAILY ISSUE OF OCTOBER 03, 2004 FBO #1042 SOURCES SOUGHT 10 -- Future Handgun System Notice Date 10/1/2004 Notice Type Sources Sought Contracting Office US Army ARDEC, AMSTA-AR-PC, Picatinny Arsenal, New Jersey 07806-5000 ZIP Code 07806-5000 Solicitation Number W15QKN-05-X-0425 Response Due 11/1/2004 Description The US Army at TACOM-ARDEC is seeking information about commercial, off-the- shelf, non-developmental item (NDI) pistols, which can meet the Army?s needs (with only minor modifications if required) for a future handgun system. The focus of the future handgun system (FHS) is to augment close quarters battle and security/force protection operations, and to offer significant improvements over the current handgun system. Additionally, the FHS will support the requirement for a personal defense weapon. The FHS will provide increases in terminal ballistic potential, durability, and reliability over the currently fielded M9/9x19mm and M11/9x19mm pistols. Specific features and characteristics of the FHS will include, but are not limited to, an integral accessory rail, enhanced day/night sighting capability, configurable grips (to suit the individual soldier?s need), and will permit the use of a sound suppressor when the threat/mission requires. The FHS will use munitions that are optimized for Army full-spectrum contingencies/applications. The FHS will also have a suitable, multi-configurable, holster(s) and ammunition carrier(s). Information about existing production pistols and/or pistols of this type that are currently in development and associated ammunition that offers increased terminal ballistic potential is desired. Interested parties are requested to submit a description of their product(s) along with other available information (sketches, drawings, specifications, brochures, and/or test results that describe current capability/on-going development) to: U.S. Army ARDEC, ATTN: David J. DeCandia, Contract Specialist, U.S. Army TACOM, Picatinny Center for Contracting and Commerce, AMSTA-AQ-APD, Building 10, Picatinny Arsenal, N.J. 07806-5000 EMAIL ADDRESS - [email protected]. This Market Survey is for information and planning purposes only, and does not constitute a Request for Proposal (RFP). This Market Survey is not to be construed as a commitment by the U. S. Government. If a formal solicitation is generated at a later date, a solicitation notice will be published. No award will be made as a result of this Market Survey. All information is to be submitted at no cost or obligation to the Government. The Government reserves the right to reject, in whole or in part, any private sector input as a result of this Market Survey. Respondents will not be notified of the results of this survey or results of information submitted. Please submit your responses NLT 1700 EST, 1 November 2004. Web Link US ARMY TACOM-Picatinny Procurement Network (http://procnet.pica.army.mil/dbi/Download/GoGetSourcesSought.cfm?SolNum=W15QKN-05-X-0425) Record SN00687867-W 20041003/041001212000 (fbodaily.com) Source FedBizOpps.gov Link to This Notice (may not be valid after Archive Date) ETA: According to the above proprosal, the only thing I had wrong in my earlier post was that I stated the FHS called for .45 acp when (according to the above) it only specidied (and I quote) "The FHS will provide increases in terminal ballistic potential, durability, and reliability over the currently fielded M9/9x19mm and M11/9x19mm pistols." However, the SOCOM program did in fact specify .45 ACP and, when both programs were joined together, the specified caliber remained .45 ACP. So I stand by what I said earlier and that is the 45 ACP will return as the caliber in the next generation of standard issued handguns for the U.S. Military. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:56:10 PM EDT
[#28]
The new .45 will not be a 1911. Mark my words.
If anything, its going be the HK45. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:58:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Right after they adopt the XM-8, right?   
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:58:15 PM EDT
[#30]
Oh I have no doubt there is proposals out there. My doubts come with the idea that the .mil is going back to the .45 any time soon. I just don't see it. Like I said, when Crane calls and says to ship them the M9s, then I'll believe it. When I have to schedule an onload of .45 ammo, I'll believe it. Until then it's another idea like 6.8, XM8, etc. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 2:58:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Glock 21
You heard it here first folks!! 
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:01:28 PM EDT
[#32]
One would think you'd learned your lesson about predictions. Which units got their XM8s in July again? |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:02:57 PM EDT
[#33]
Airsoft recon units. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:05:12 PM EDT
[#34]
Not unless they do a manual safety. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:06:11 PM EDT
[#35]
Why not just issue more of these instead?  Besides, the G21 doesnt have double strike capability. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:09:01 PM EDT
[#36]
Will be interesting to see what they come up with.
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:10:04 PM EDT
[#37]
Not going to happen, .45 is not a NATO round,
Anyway, even John Moses Browning thought the 1911 was not the be all and end all of handgun design, that's why he invented the rather superior 9mm HiPower |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:11:06 PM EDT
[#38]
Okay, here's further evidence and the source for this information can be found at www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/jcp.htm.
Please pay attention to the highlighted text. Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) The US Special Operations Command [USSOCOM] issued a solicitation in August 2005 to obtain commercially available non-developmental item (NDI) Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) system, Caliber .45 (ACP). The Program (which absorbed an earlier Future Handgun System program) will use full and open competition to fulfill the JCP requirement. The JCP will be delivered in accordance with specification entitled "Performance Specification Joint Combat Pistol" to be provided with issuance of the solicitation. Two configurations of the pistol will be required. One configuration will have no external safety and the other configuration will have an external safety. The Combat Pistol System consists of: a Caliber .45 pistol and its ancillary equipment including: Magazines (standard and high-capacity); Suppressor Attachment Kit for operation of the pistol with and without sound suppressor; Holster; Magazine Holder (standard and high-capacity); Cleaning Kit; and Operator's Manual. The contract type will be an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) issuing Firm-Fixed Price (FFP) delivery orders. The contract period of performance shall be Five (5)years with an option to extend for an additional Five (5) years. The Minimum Quantity is 24 each Engineering Test Units (ETU's), 12 each with external manual safety and 12 each without external manual safety. The estimated Maximum quantities are: 45,000 no external safety JCP configuration and 600,000 JCP with the external safety configuration; 649,000 Holsters; 96,050 Standard Capacity Magazines; 192,099 High Capacity Magazines; 667,000 Magazine Holders; 132,037 Suppressor attachment kits; Provisioning Item Order, Technical Data Package and associated Data. The solicitation will require, free of charge to the government, delivery of 24 each product samples along with a concise written proposal all due on the closing date stated in the solicitation. The 24-each product sample from the successful offeror may be accepted as the Minimum Quantity. Any subsequent delivery orders for JCP's will order between 50 each and 200,000 each with a maximum monthly delivery rate of 5,000 each. Any subsequent orders for the ancillary items will require delivery to commence within 60 days after receipt of order. The product samples and written proposal will be evaluated on a best value basis and the Government will reserve the right to award to other than the lowest priced offeror and other than the highest technically rated offeror. Product samples from unsuccessful offerors will be returned to the offerors upon request and at the offeror's expense. The Government cannot guarantee the condition of the product samples after testing. The JCP shall have a Mean Rounds Between Stoppage (MRBS) of 2000 rounds (Threshold) and 5000 rounds (Objective) firing A475 and A483 ammunition. The JCP shall have a Mean Rounds Between Failure (MRBF) of 5000 rounds (T) and 10,000 rounds (O) firing A475 and A483 ammunition. The weapon shall function reliably when operated in extreme environments. When fired from a rest, at a range of 50 meters, the mean radius of a 10-shot group fired from the JCP shall not be greater than A) 3.15 inches or B)1.8 inches over baseline ammunition performance, whichever is less (T). Baseline ammunition performance is defined as the average mean radius plus two sample standard deviations of three 10-shot groups fired from a test barrel at 50m. The JCP shall have a service life of 20,000 rounds (T), greater than 20,000 (O), using A475 .45 ACP Ball, and/or A483 .45 ACP match ammunition. The JCP should be capable of a service life of 20,000 rounds when firing 5% AA18 .45 +P ammunition (O). Receiver service life shall be defined as a receiver that is at the end of its usable life cycle. The JCP shall have a standard magazine capacity of no less than eight  rounds (T), greater than eight rounds (O) of .45 ACP ammunition. The JCP shall also have a high-capacity magazine of no less than ten [10] rounds (T), fifteen [15] rounds (O), of .45 ACP ammunition. The JCP shall have a rigid attachment point for a lanyard (T). The JCP lanyard attachment point shall not interfere with the JCP control features or magazine unloading and reloading, and shall minimize snag hazard (T). The JCP shall have an integral MIL-STD-1913 rail for the attachment of accessories (T). The rail shall be located forward of the trigger guard on the lower portion of the frame (T). The JCP surface finish shall be non-reflective, resistant to peeling, flaking, and chipping, and require a minimum of operator preventive maintenance (T). Internal coatings should be lubricious/low friction mitigating the use of lubricants (O). Non-metallic components shall be fungus and battlefield chemical resistant (T). JCP materials and coatings shall protect the pistol from degradation in all climates and geographical areas including maritime, coastal, desert, tropical jungle, arctic, urban areas, and mountain environments (T). The materials and coatings shall minimize the attraction of dust and contamination (T). The JCP frame and JCP holster shall be delivered in Color #30118 (Flat, Dark Earth), Per FED-STD-595B (T). The barrel and slide shall be anti-reflective, matte grey or matte black finish comparable to FED-STD-595B series #36000 or #37000 colors (T). The JCP length, with standard barrel, shall be less than 9.65 inches (T). The JCP width shall be less than 1.53 inches (T). The JCP shall function in double action/single action (DA/SA) or double-action only (DAO) including Striker-Fired Action (SFA) (T). The JCP should have a modular action mechanism that allows reconfiguration at the unit level without modification to the weapon's major assemblies (O). All DA/SA pistols shall have a consistent trigger pull of eight to ten [8-10] pounds on Double Action, and a consistent trigger pull of four to six [4-6] pounds on Single Action and all DAO pistols shall have a trigger pull of five to eight [5-8] pounds (T). All pistols shall have a trigger pull that is consistent within one [1] pound from average pull (T). When pressure is applied to the JCP trigger and then released, the trigger shall reset to its forward-most position, even if the pistol is not fired (T). The operator shall be capable of pulling the trigger, without shifting the firing grip. The JCP shall allow the magazine, empty or with any number of rounds loaded, to drop free of the magazine well when the magazine release is activated (T). The magazine shall fall free when the pistol grip is held at any angle from 0 degrees vertical (normal firing attitude) to 45 degrees from vertical (T). The magazine shall also be capable of manual extraction when held at any other angle (T). The pistol shall be capable of firing with a chambered round and without a magazine in the magazine well (T). The pistol shall reliably fire when the pistol has a round in the chamber and a fully loaded magazine is inserted with the slide fully forward and the pistol is fired (T). The operator shall be capable of operating the magazine release with the firing hand (T). The operator should be capable of operating the magazine release without shifting the firing grip (O). The JCP shall be operable for a range of operators from the 5th to 95th percentile per section 3.6.3. To aid in this, the JCP should incorporate a modular grip adjustment system to provide enhanced ergonomics (O). The JCP sights shall provide rapid target acquisition and shall be optimized for snag-resistant rapid deployment (T). The JCP sights shall be replaceable at the organizational level (T). The JCP sights shall be drift-adjustable for windage (T). The JCP sights shall be self-illuminating for low light situations without ambient or external light source "charging" (T). The JCP shall be chambered for standard .45 Auto per ANSI/SAAMI Z299.3-1993. The JCP shall safely fire all .45 caliber ACP cartridges referenced in paragraph 2.2.1 of this performance specification (T). Each JCP shall be capable of withstanding the firing of a M1 Cartridge, .45 ACP High Pressure Test detailed in MIL-C-60163 and marked accordingly (T). The pistol shall have proper headspace for .45 ACP cartridges (T). The JCP shall be capable of quick and easy field stripping, without the use of tools, for normal care and cleaning in the field (T). The weapon shall be incapable of improper assembly at the fieldstrip level to the detriment of safety (T). Takedown pins should be captive (O). All component parts or inseparable subassemblies shall be 100% interchangeable between pistols without hand or machine fitting (T). Interchange of parts of like condition shall not adversely affect safety, functioning, reliability or accuracy of the pistol (T). Operational suitability and effectiveness of the JCP is based on the ability of the JCP system to meet all stated threshold and objective requirements as well as Operators' (subjective and objective) determination of operational suitability and effectiveness. Factors include but are not limited to overall reliability, controllability/shootability as measured by live-fire hit scores and engagement times while shooting with two hands and single handed (both strong and weak hand), ease of reload and malfunction clearing, ergonomics, snag free operation, and ease of maintainability while in the field (T). The JCP shall be durable, and easily maintainable in the field (T). It shall be usable by right or left-handed operators (T). The pistol shall be operable by personnel wearing anti-contact protection (cold weather, scuba, or Chemical, Biological, Radiological gloves) (T). The pistol shall not present any sharp edges or pinch points that could damage the clothing or protective equipment of the soldier or injure the soldier (T). The JCP design shall allow the Operator to immediately clear a malfunction without the use of tools (T). The JCP calls for an initial procurement of 645,000 .45 ACP caliber pistols along with their related equipment. That's an aweful lot of pistols just for SOCOM. What's SOCOM gonna do? Hand 'em out as party favors at christmas parties? |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:16:34 PM EDT
[#39]
What you have to understand is there is a bunch of people here that need some sort of validation in their ammo choice. So if they can find a proposal, not even a contract, just a proposal, which seems to validate their caliber choice, then they're all over it. The truth of the matter is, even if this were to come about, it would only affect a few members here directly. The rest would get the validation they seek. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:20:52 PM EDT
[#40]
SIG 220
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:23:18 PM EDT
[#41]
In this case, he's right. A couple articles I've read on this specifically stated that the military was NOT considering the 1911. Thus proving that top brass are a bunch of dumbasses. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:24:11 PM EDT
[#42]
Not my fault that the troops testing it fucked its chances... |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:27:26 PM EDT
[#43]
Heaven forbid they find FAULTS with a mighty HK produced gun. What the hell do the troops know? |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:29:07 PM EDT
[#44]
The only real advantage the 45 has for it is all the my uncle's, brother's, cousin's stories. If we are still at war after the 10-15 years it takes for a item to hit the system we end up hearing allot of the same complaints. Remarkably mostly from guys who don't carry pistols.
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:46:33 PM EDT
[#45]
Wrong on both counts. THe .45ACP is a NATO spec rouund, and while no one else uses it, it is STILL NATO, kinda like the RG crap 'M855' for that wonderful bullpup that your folks carry. And the High Power was designed for a contract that required certain items on it, so JMB worked within those specs. It's not that he felt it was a better gun, just a better gun for the specs. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 3:55:41 PM EDT
[#46]
 9 out of 10 professionals how kill people and break things for a living are happy with the 9mm 9 out of 10 keyboard komandoes who kill cats and break things for a hobby insist only a .45 will do |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 4:20:51 PM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 2/11/2006 4:21:39 PM EDT
[#48]
This also comes into the current debate about the 5.56 round.
As was found when battling the MORO's the 38 round just did'nt have the stuff. As we have seen the return of the M-14 for the increased range and energy on target, just the same with the data on the M-9 vs the .45 Will it be the 1911? most likely not. Will it be a HK? good chance do to the current "in" they have with Gov. purchasing. But on a good note, there will be 1911 style handguns that will be manufactured to meet the specs. We as Americans do our best when forced in combat to make the best decisions. In other word the geeks in puchasing lose out to the shooters. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 4:22:58 PM EDT
[#49]
You have not talked with the Crane guys in a while have you. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 4:24:55 PM EDT
[#50]
Keep that quiet, or the natives will get restless. |
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