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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/19/2002 2:59:54 PM EST
[argue] I have heard a lot of things about the 5.56 cartridge,a lot of them bad. If you look at how the early AR-15 and M-16 became the standard of the US military you will find a lot of "top dogs" from Generals to people at the white house back in the mid 50's when the AR-15 was introduced to our military absolutely hated the rifle and actually "rigged" some testing of the weapon to make it look bad. The reason some didn't like it was because of the small cal. and less power than the M-14 witch fires the 7.62 or .308 WIN. The plus side was a solder could carry a lot more ammo given the same battle load or weight. I tried to find some reliable souses on the web about the ballistics on the 5.56. Here are some of the things I've found. 1)The 5.56mm bullet needs to maintain a vol. of 2500fps so when it hits a flesh target it will flip, come apart and create an larger permanent cavity. So I went to remington's web site and looked at there ballistics. The chart showed that a 55grn bullet has a vol. of around 2500fps@200 yards. Now this tells me that the 5.56 is no longer affective beyond 200 yards? I find this hard to belive. I own an SR-15 M4 with the 16" barrel. I have personally shot through a 14mm steel plate at 100 yards with some army surplus FMJ-AP. So I know It can penetrate. I have also turned cinder blocks to a pile of dust @ 100 yards with ease. But I still don't know it's killing power. 2) I have also read that some SWAT teams use the 5.56 for sniping over the 7.62 because they don't want it to "over penetrate". WELL my last test I just got through explaining proofs that it has no problems in the penetration area. It could go through Kevlar like a hot knife through butter. It also said that for sniping applications you should not shoot any further than 100 yards and try to only make head shots for a "lights out" kill. Hmmm.... 3) Solders in NAM apparently said that instead of shooting there target and having a "lights out" kill they would find there kill a few yards from ware they had been shot being kill from excessive blood loss. Is this true? This all started when I found out I COULD NOT hunt deer with my rifle in my home state witch is Minnesota. It kind of pissed me off and got me thinking of what is my rifle's killing ability. I mean when I'm at the range it seams hard core and powerful shooting through steel and destroying cinder blocks but yet so many stories of the lack of power on the infamous cartridge. Do you guys know any first hand FACTS?
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 3:14:24 PM EST
when the AR-15 was introduced to our military absolutely hated the rifle and actually "rigged" some testing of the weapon to make it look bad.
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Most firearms were initially "hated" when first introduced. It's a bit like the "best" place to be stationed. The two best places in the world are the one he "just left" and the one he's "heading to next." Wherever he happens to be is the worst. Eddie
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 3:16:56 PM EST
Go [url=www.ammo-oracle.com]here[/url]
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 3:24:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 3:51:52 PM EST
Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. [bounce]
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 4:00:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 4:04:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 4:05:23 PM EST
So... whare is the pictures of dead sand nigs?
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 4:10:03 PM EST
I got it at a gun show. I'm not shure if it was jacketed or a steel core. I was just very happy with the results. It says SB 94 556 and has the NATO stamp.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 4:19:34 PM EST
There's a lot more to weapons selection than ft-lbs of energy. You have to look at what tactical environment they'll be used in, then try to optimize for that. As it turns out, almost all rifle fire is within 200 m. The 5.56 from a 20" barrel does quite nicely inside that range. Furthermore, one of the primary uses of rifles is suppressing fire, which is intended to keep the enemy fixed while the other elements manuever. To do that well you need a lot of ammo, which means that quantity of ammo needs to be light enough to carry. That argues against a big cartridge. Everyone back then thought full auto fire was the wave of the future, but it turned out that even the smaller intermediate cartridges like 5.56 had too much recoil. People concentrate more on semi-auto and burst these days, except for a few situations.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 4:39:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By FiVe_FiVe_SiX: So... whare is the pictures of dead sand nigs?
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Wow! It took you a whole three posts to start in on the gratuitous racist insults!
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 4:41:18 PM EST
Yes, I agree. In my opinion the M4, M-16, CAR-15 etc. Are the best assault rifles to date. There job is to assault, give cover fire, shoot short to med. ranges and nutralise the bad guys. In Mn. you cant hunt deer with a .223/5.56 because it doesn't have enough "knock down power" according to the folks that make up our laws. And basicly that is why I was wondering about the killing power/energy of the 5.56. But, I do know about the tactical advantages of the M4, M-16 etc.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 4:48:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed:
Originally Posted By FiVe_FiVe_SiX: So... whare is the pictures of dead sand nigs?
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Wow! It took you a whole three posts to start in on the gratuitous racist insults!
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Wht do you expect? You attack my home land and you should expect gratuitous racist insults. You break into my home and endanger me or my famly and you can expect nothing less than death.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 4:50:09 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 4:51:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2002 4:56:30 PM EST by brouhaha]
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 4:56:06 PM EST
Ok, no more insults. Is the M955 alivalible to the public?
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 4:57:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 5:07:35 PM EST
Originally Posted By FiVe_FiVe_SiX: Ok, no more insults. Is the M955 alivalible to the public?
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I mean the M995. [|)]
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 5:58:38 PM EST
Originally Posted By FiVe_FiVe_SiX:
Originally Posted By FiVe_FiVe_SiX: Ok, no more insults. Is the M955 alivalible to the public?
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I mean the M995. [|)]
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Not a chance. Even if you're military, you probably won't get your hands on that stuff.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 6:04:12 PM EST
My beloved Corps stonewalled the M1, and it was in the same damn caliber as the 1903. It is the nature of the military to seek the perfect weapon for each latest war, not the best weapon that will work okay in all wars. The current M16A2 is the one gun that does it all, the jack of all trades master of none. For the middle east something in the M14/M1/G3A3 class would be great. For the upcoming urban war..... For Vietnam.....For the war we missed in the Fulda Gap....
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 6:12:17 PM EST
2) I have also read that some SWAT teams use the 5.56 for sniping over the 7.62 because they don't want it to "over penetrate". WELL my last test I just got through explaining proofs that it has no problems in the penetration area. It could go through Kevlar like a hot knife through butter. It also said that for sniping applications you should not shoot any further than 100 yards and try to only make head shots for a "lights out" kill. Hmmm....
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There is no such thing as a 'lights out' kill unless you're talking about CNS hits or the psychological effects of being shot. This applies to ANY WEAPON and ANY CALIBER on the face of the planet, short of a GBU-12. Any shot that results in a person or animal dying on the spot is either a CNS hit, psychological incapacitation (for humans), or just plain chance. This will tell you why SWAT would like to get solid headshots if they can, no matter what the hell caliber they're shooting at the moment. "Knockdown power" is a myth. Read Fackler. The penetration they are talking about in this case is not initial penetration, which 5.56 (or any rifle round for that matter) is much better at than any handgun caliber because of their sectional density as well as speed. Kevlar, helmets, walls, things of that sort. What they are talking about is penetration BEYOND the target. Some handgun calibers, as well as many rifle calibers, tend to stay in one piece and continue on through, with the potential to kill any bystander behind the Bad Guy. 5.56, however, fragments. Because of that, it poses less hazard for downrange objects and persons after exiting the target (if it exits). Here's a comparsion: 9mm FMJ traveling at 1175fps does not penetrate Level II armor. Any .223/5.56 caliber would do so easily. However, the same 9mm round would penetrate more sheets of drywall than 5.56, because it stays in one piece and retains its energy while the 5.56 fragments into little bits, with each little bit having less energy. This would also apply to shooting at "bad guys", with innocent bystanders downrange. Here's another comparsion: 12ga slug vs. 12ga 00 buckshot. Which retains more energy the longer the range becomes? 12ga 00 buckshot vs. 12ga #6 birdshot. Which retains more energy the longer the range becomes? In both cases it's the former. That's because the individual pellets are lighter. Once they separate from the mass, then the lighter they are the faster they slow down, and the faster they lose energy. Same damn thing. However, I would not depend on fragmentation in anything except true NATO ammunition. Federal AE 55gr. .223 is not NATO, therefore I would not depend on it to fragment in the manner attributed to NATO ammunition. I would tell you about German 7.62x51 but you don't deserve any.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 6:56:53 PM EST
Damn, you all just torn into one another. There's nothing left to say....
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 7:02:24 PM EST
this guys needs a beating. why do people join the board and preach on and on about shit thats common knowledge!. read the FAQ, you arent telling us anything that hasnt been discussed here bi-weekly
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 7:33:01 PM EST
I smell a BOG like creature. Sgtar15
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 8:29:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By DvlDog: this guys needs a beating.
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what guy?
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 8:34:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2002 8:37:05 PM EST by ar10er]
There is no such thing as a 'lights out' kill unless you're talking about CNS hits or the psychological effects of being shot. This applies to ANY WEAPON and ANY CALIBER on the face of the planet, short of a GBU-12. Any shot that results in a person or animal dying on the spot is either a CNS hit, psychological incapacitation (for humans), or just plain chance. This will tell you why SWAT would like to get solid headshots if they can, no matter what the hell caliber they're shooting at the moment. "Knockdown power" is a myth. .50 BMG maybe? Even if you don't die immediately, you are sure out of the fight!
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 8:45:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2002 8:52:59 PM EST by GodBlessTexas]
Originally Posted By ar10er: .50 BMG maybe? Even if you don't die immediately, you are sure out of the fight!
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Most "urban" sniping is done at less than 100 yards and in hostage situations, which is completely different from military sniping where a .50BMG is appropriate. You're not going to shoot a guy with a hostage with a .50BMG. Also, CNS shots are the only shots guaranteed to keep a person from using their fine motor skills after the shot to pull the trigger in a hostage situation. That's another reason why they take the shot from relatively close distances, given the fact that the size of the target is about the size of a walnut at the base of the skull in a hostage situation. A shot to the brain could still cause a muscle spasm that could cause a firearm to discharge, alebit not todays heavy triggered DA pistols. [:D] There's a really good article in a magazine I picked up from a SWAT sniper who talks about building up a gun, the Remington 700ADL, for multi-purpose short/long range shooting. He pretty much laid out what's bad about the 7.62 NATO/.308WIN in urban sniping by showing how it faired against the wildcat cartridge .30-338 that he went with. It was amazing to see how simple things like home and auto glass, siding, sheetrock, "bulletproof" glass or even foliage affected the shots. The .30-338 outperformed it in all areas for penetration and being on target through common urban objects. Performance for the .30-338 was far superior to the .308WIN in every category from 900 yards and below. A damn good read. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 8:52:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas:
Originally Posted By ar10er: .50 BMG maybe? Even if you don't die immediately, you are sure out of the fight!
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Most "urban" sniping is done at less than 100 yards and in hostage situations, which is completely different from military sniping where a .50BMG is appropriate. You're not going to shoot a guy with a hostage with a .50BMG. Also, CNS shots are the only shots guaranteed to keep a person from using their fine motor skills after the shot to pull the trigger in a hostage situation. That's another reason why they take the shot from relatively close distances, given the fact that the size of the target is about the size of a walnut at the base of the skull in a hostage situation. A shot to the brain could still cause a muscle spasm that could cause a firearm to discharge, alebit not todays heavy triggered DA pistols. [:D] Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
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My uncle sniped in Korea, and he said when he shot anyone, anywhere with the .50, there reaction was to drop anything they were carrying. He said something about a natural reaction to get away from the pain.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 9:01:00 PM EST
Originally Posted By ar10er: My uncle sniped in Korea, and he said when he shot anyone, anywhere with the .50, there reaction was to drop anything they were carrying. He said something about a natural reaction to get away from the pain.
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Certainly. It was probably more like instant shock, which can happen with pistol ammo, though much less likely unless you're hitting non-elastic tissue. But it's like the old addage goes. Tell me what caliber you'd rather be shot with and I'll be more than happy to shoot you with it so you can tell me what it's like. I guarantee, from the .22LR to the .50MBG, they'll all hurt to a degree. Hit someone with a .50BMG and you'll definitely get a reaction. But even in severe shock, the target can still pull a trigger. That's totally unacceptable if the target has a gun to a person's head. Plus, given the distances that a .50BMG is used at for sniping in the field, you've got anywhere from a 3" to 8" deviation from point of aim and point of impact from a field rifle with what I've read, so take that with a grain of salt. But 3-8" of deviation is the difference between taking down the hostage taker or the hostage. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 9:09:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By GodBlessTexas:
Certainly. It was probably more like instant shock, which can happen with pistol ammo, though much less likely unless you're hitting non-elastic tissue. But it's like the old addage goes. Tell me what caliber you'd rather be shot with and I'll be more than happy to shoot you with it so you can tell me what it's like. I guarantee, from the .22LR to the .50MBG, they'll all hurt to a degree. Hit someone with a .50BMG and you'll definitely get a reaction. But even in severe shock, the target can still pull a trigger. That's totally unacceptable if the target has a gun to a person's head. Plus, given the distances that a .50BMG is used at for sniping in the field, you've got anywhere from a 3" to 8" deviation from point of aim and point of impact from a field rifle with what I've read, so take that with a grain of salt. But 3-8" of deviation is the difference between taking down the hostage taker or the hostage. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
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He did make shots inside 100yrds. and at that range the accuracy was better than an inch. He said none ever returned fire, because even if he hit them in the arm it tended to take the arm off. If you have confidence in you abilities, I think it would be a no brainer, inside a 100yrds.
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 9:12:09 PM EST
In Arizona , it is not only legal to hunt deer with ANY CENTERFIRE cartridge , it is also legal to hunt ELK with any centerfire cartridge. I think your Fish & Game people have had their brains frozen up there in Minnisota . I've used an AR 15 to kill Mule deer at 200 yards and they don't get any more dead than if I hit them with my 300 WM ! Only difference is I don't destroy more meat from using a "cannon". [sniper]
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 10:36:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2002 10:37:19 PM EST by Big_Bear]
Link Posted: 7/19/2002 11:23:04 PM EST
I thank you for all of you're responses. I dont think any body needs a beating. The most help I got was in the FAQ's section.The whole reason I started reserching the 5.56 was because the folks that make up the laws in my state say the .223/5.56 is not enough to take down a deer. This didn't make any sence to me, expecialy after what I did to the block and steel plate. I didn't buy the M4 just to hunt deer but shooting at paper gets old after a while. After reading some of the things on other web sites, stuff just didn't add up. So I thought I'd ask here. I know it must be a quite deadly cartrage because so many differnt military weapons shoot it. The AUG for an example. Has any body ever shot larger game with the .223/5.56? If so what was the effect and whare was it hit? I have read just about every thing I could find on the 5.56 and have heard it all from tactical advantages to balistics. I've even taped a documentry off of the History chanel on the M-16. One time I was at an out side range in Wisconson by my cabin. As I was reloading a crow landed aprox. 10 feet behind my paper target. (this was at 100 yards) I took aim shot and killed the crow, walked up to it and look at what kind of damage it did to it. Other than than the fact that it was laying there dead it was completly in tact. I thought this was strange becaus I have head so many stories if people shooting other small anmals and completly destroyed it. (it basicly exploded). This certenly did not happen to the crow. Thats the only thing I've killed with the M4 and just thought I'd share. Also if knock down power is a myth, then why does the state of Mn say the .223/5.56 is not good rnough to bring down larger game? They also say that the smallest cal. pistol you can hunt with is a.357 MAG. This would exclude the 9mm for an example. IS the 9mm not enough to bring down larger game? and if not why? I wanted to buy an MP5 9mm and hunt with it. Maby that sounds kinda stupid but I think it would be fun.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 12:04:30 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 3:04:21 AM EST
The 5.56 ammo we used in Vietnam did not fragment nor did it tumble making huge holes in the enemy...in most cases of enemy wounded and collateral damage targets (euphemism inserted to protect the simple minded) the rounds often passed through and then sealed themselves...Obviously any wound incured outside immediate trauma care can be ultimately fatal...but not necessarily so..regardless that person is out of business for a while..I have seen the enemy hit by 5.56 then flee the area leaving minimal blood trails that ended after a short time...Interesting when you assume the heart pumping at a much higher rate due to adrenaline and increased cardio vascular activity...The light round is more easily deflected by brush in my somewhat limited experience (Vietnam/Cambodia) than say the 7.62 round.When you needed things to happen...the M60 was the tool for the job. Heavier bullets in hollow point or soft nose imo would be a better choice than 55 grain FMJ...as long as feeding isnt a problem and you havent signed any international agreements... IMO our troops are worthy of being allowed more weapons options...I think the poodle shooter in short version is a good option for RTOs Corpsman and Officers...But from my experience and given a jungle environment we should also issue a main battle rifle...or equivalent...and we have wasted forty years of R&D that could have produced one that is bullet proof in ice mud and sand. As far as the "myth of knockdown power" from what Ive seen that is mostly a myth...however brush penetration is not a myth... One of the most successful point men in Vietnam carried a 444 Marlin for that very reason... You experience may very...but this was mine...
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 3:51:05 AM EST
[img]http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/alwithgun.jpg[/img] Ask al gore.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 5:04:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2002 5:09:25 AM EST by Hoplite]
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 8:06:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By Hoplite: Are you sure he used a fifty? MY greatuncle was in the marines as an infantryman and although not a sniper he said the official weapon was a 1903a3 while the army used the m1c. I was also under the impression from what i have read on these boards and some of the military based history classes that the .50 didnt show its face as a sniper weapon till after the vietnam was began. That Carlos Hathcock was the one who put two and two together with the .50 BMG as a sniper weapon. correct me if I am wrong Tom
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In times of war our soldiers due many things that are not "official". My uncle told me an interesting story about using a .50 where there was a rare tree in Korea. He said the North Koreans set up an officers latrine next to a tree, and when no one was near the latrine, he fired a couple of rounds at the tree to get the range. Then when officers used the latrine, he would wait until they came out an pop them. The range was over 1000yrds. He said it took a dozen dead officers, before they moved the latrine.
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 9:34:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 9:41:15 AM EST
So what is the most common type of Military surplus ammo am I going to find. (what is most widly avalible)? I've shot. Remington: 55grn soft potint 55grn fmj 45grn hp Black hills: 55grn fmj Umc: 55grn fmj Nato: sb 94 5.56 fmj steel core (unknowen weight) All of these performed about the same except for the 45grn hp. (the elevation was aprox 1" high @100 yards).
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 9:50:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By Hoplite:
Originally Posted By ar10er:
Originally Posted By Hoplite: Are you sure he used a fifty? MY greatuncle was in the marines as an infantryman and although not a sniper he said the official weapon was a 1903a3 while the army used the m1c. I was also under the impression from what i have read on these boards and some of the military based history classes that the .50 didnt show its face as a sniper weapon till after the vietnam was began. That Carlos Hathcock was the one who put two and two together with the .50 BMG as a sniper weapon. correct me if I am wrong Tom
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In times of war our soldiers due many things that are not "official". My uncle told me an interesting story about using a .50 where there was a rare tree in Korea. He said the North Koreans set up an officers latrine next to a tree, and when no one was near the latrine, he fired a couple of rounds at the tree to get the range. Then when officers used the latrine, he would wait until they came out an pop them. The range was over 1000yrds. He said it took a dozen dead officers, before they moved the latrine.
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What was the rifle used to take out these officers?
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Maw Duce. This is my last answer, as it appears we are hijacking a thread!
Link Posted: 7/20/2002 10:02:03 AM EST
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 3:46:49 PM EST
The Isralie M855 green tip does a good job on 1/2 iron plate! Maybe it was 1/4 I didn't messure it but looked like 1/2 inch. Bob [8D]
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 4:08:24 PM EST
Originally Posted By FiVe_FiVe_SiX: Do you guys know any first hand FACTS?
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Learn to shoot. Learn to shoot well. Learn to shoot well under pressure. Take a tactical rifle class.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 4:26:28 PM EST
Now, Now fellas, how many times do we have to tell you to NOT FEED the TROLLS! We'll probably be hearing about this guy on the news next week for killing a few dozen people somewhere. Too many questions about the killing effects of the 5.56mm for someone who just joined this month. A little too eager for me! 556mm
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 4:30:44 PM EST
This is a Quote from American Rifleman..."During his time in Vietnam, Hancock used various rifles,principally bolt-action Winchester Model 70s and Remington U.S. M40's, but one he used at various times "in country" was the "U.S. Rifle,7.62 mm,M14." This is from me now...I never met Sergenant Hathcock, but almost everyone I knew tried to live up to his reputation. If you get the American Rifleman from the NRA the Magazine is dedicated to him this issue.
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 4:34:18 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/21/2002 10:37:54 PM EST
NATO ammo works just fine.
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