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Posted: 5/24/2011 3:43:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2011 8:47:44 PM EDT by GUNSFORHIRE]
I am sure I will get smashed over and over because of the events that just transpired concerning a FALSE PROPHET and his misguided followers who were anticipating being snatched away from Earth..

As a Christian, I must take this time to give those who can resist posting RAPTOR Images on a cross, crucified! Or those images of Clothes piled up next to porn! It is my Christian Duty to bring to light the TRUE RAPTURE according to what many believe the Holy Bible and God's word says concerning the END-TIMES Events, which, I believe are just at the door..

Although, I foresee certain events which have been the Birth Pangs that were spoken of by Jesus Christ, I will NOT EVER, ever set a specific date, ask for you to send large sums of Tax Free Money or ask you to commit mass suicide by drinking sups full of Jim Jonez's Purple Drank! (Well, maybe some of you)

All I DO ask is that if you are not genuinely interested in knowing what the Bible, Jesus' Apostles and Jesus Himself had to say or reference in regard to the Rapture and the Return of Jesus Christ to gather His followers and also, to bring the Earth's companions and dwellers under the subjection of God, Creator of The Heavens and of The Earth at the end of this, Mankind's current "Age" and the End of the Times of the Gentiles"..

First I must say concerning Mr Camping's utter failure, HE DON'T SPEAK FOR GOD, or ME and I am sure that many others will back me when I say that his false prophesies regarding the Rapture makes me sick..It is my belief that he made his predictions for gain, fame and in the end bringing more confusion to an already confused topic in the Christian communities and the world..He took numbers 10,17 along with the tribulation period being 23 years which, has no bearing on the truth found in the Bible, he then applied his own unfounded mathematical formulas to come to his rapture date of May 21st 2011 and October 21st as the total annihilation of the entire universe.,another LIE not found in scripture

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Beginning here, I want to admit I am NOT a theologian or Mathematician and certainly not a Biblical Scholar, However, I do fit the bill of one who LOVES GOD and I have a personal relationship with Creator of the Universe,  I have studied the Holy Bible since I was a small child and more recently the Jewish feasts and holy days..

I know that there has been a lot of fun talking about us dumb Christians and the "raptor god" we all so blindly worship, over the last few days and I hope all the defaming comments have been used up...I know it is a long shot but I'd like to avoid it as much as possible or the bashing of who I worship, The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, The God of the Hebrews.. I think after 300 rapture thread topics, most of the insults have been made time and time over..

So, after having all the giggles and fun and riddicule involved, I would like to present a serious view and discussion of the TRUE Rapture event spoken or referenced to by the Holy Bible and I will do my best to outline what many, many in the Christian evangelical community, believe in regard to the End-Times and the Rapture (gathering/removal) of God's chosen people at a set time in the history of the Church.


OK, Just to get a few things out of the way, here are some prearranged answers or thoughts on certain subjects involved...

I am a Christian!! Personally, I know, Trust and believe Jesus Christ to be exactly who He and others through history said He was/is and is to come..

I believe in a Triune God or Trinity, the Godhead..God existing in 3 distinct persons which make ONE God..

I believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in regard to eschatology and the End-Times events given in the Holy Bible's scriptures both the New and Old Testament sections of the Holy Bible..

Also, for starters, I would offer this TRUTH in regard to scripture..Jesus was known as the "Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world"

There are more than one reason the Jesus was given the title, "The Lamb of God" and by starting at this point we will gain an understanding of the Real Rapture of God's chosen, Those who will escape the judgments
poured out during the "Tribulation".

1) The apostle Paul stated in regard to the Jewish Holy days and Feast this passage of text found in here in

Colossians 2:16-17 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come


In reading the Bible we must understand that God's Word has a plethora of meanings, some hidden, some open, some figurative and some literal, some had earthly meanings and some had specific spiritual connotations and meanings, some were meant for the present and some were meant for recalling events of the past, and *MOST* scripture had many if not all these listed attributes..But in our study here, The Prophetic meanings is what we are looking to as to bring an understanding of an event that is yet to come..The RAPTURE..

Revelations 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Understanding this fact and knowing It was said that the testimony of Jesus is the SPIRIT OF PROPHESY and that the Jewish Feasts were shadows of things to come we find our code key to understanding Jesus, God's Kingdom and the Rapture as a future, foretold event.

Looking back at the title, "The Lamb of God" and understanding scripture is multifaceted in meanings, I want to turn our attention to God's Feasts also known as the Jewish Feasts or Holy Days..

Most if not all of us are familiar with or at least heard of Jewish Holy Days, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah. These are two feast that most of us know because they are the most popular Feasts to westerners, whether from
knowing someone from within religion of Judaism or from TV, school or whatever..

At this point it needs to be pointed out a huge unknown secret among many.... JESUS CHRIST WAS A JEWISH Rabbi and IS NOW A JEWISH PRIEST and He followed and thanks to God and according to Christian doctrine, Fulfilled the Law of Moses the very strict and impossible Jewish Law of Moses..Down to each and every simple to the very, very strict ordinances set out by God to magnify sins..

According to scripture, the Law of Moses or the Commandments of God; not to be confused with The Ten Commandments..

The fulfillment of the "Law of Moses" is that special condition which separated Jesus Christ out from and away from ALL men of the world and of Jewish Rabbinical Ancestry..Minus the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, this is
that which the Christian doctrine and belief is founded upon. This is that which made Jesus Christ acceptable to God as the "Lamb of God:"

This point is what brings us to the Feast of Passover, also known to most people and as what the Western world celebrates as the Easter Holidays, including Good Friday and Palm Sunday.

The Feast of Passover, historically, is older than the events which are associated with our Easter Holiday.

The Passover Feasts is a celebration that the Hebrews will always remember because it commemorates their time as Egyptian slaves, Their Divine Appointment with God which thrust the Abrahamic Covenant into full-swing when God promised the Patriarch Abraham that his "offspring" would be like the sands of the sea and the stars of the sky and that ALL of humanity would be blessed through the 12 tribes of ISRAEL

It is hard not to stray off into theology and history at this point because I am so facinated with how God chose one man, almost 100 years old with a wife who was womb-barren
which would go on to create the greatest people known in history, However, Let's get back to the Passover Feast.

A basic overview regarding the Passover, God instructed, in very fine detail, Moses and Aaron with all the families of those captive in Egyptian Slaves how to prepare to be delivered from Slavery and taken into the Promised Land
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 3:43:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2011 8:46:17 PM EDT by GUNSFORHIRE]
To understand God and what the Bible is you must understand who Jesus is..

Jesus, The Son of God, The First-fruit of Many Brethren,The Good Shepard, etc, etc..

Looking into the Biblical account we must understand the relationship of Mankind and God...We are NOT mere animals which were made for the simple enjoyment of a distant God.

We were created a little lower than the angels,which were created by God for a purpose, God's messengers and workers of His universal kingdom..



Hebrews 2 states the following, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


The following text gives us an answer to who Mankind is in relation to God..Since the sufferings of Christ, we are now adopted SONS, Born into the actual Family of God at Salvation..

I know this is hard to swallow when you look at your neighbor or the mailman but..If that man is a Christian, through and through, He is now the Son (by adoption) of God and Jesus is his elder brother..Many people don't have a clue what the Bible says concerning the salvation of men by the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. WOW, I bet most have no idea of the benefits of accepting Jesus Christ as lord and savior are unspeakable!!

Not only do we live forever, in God's Holy Kingdom, We are the Creator of the Universes SONS and Daughters..

Looking to Jesus, the "Author and Finisher" of our faith and salvation, we need to understand the works behind Him laying down His life for Mankind..Salvation is not simply so we can live forever and never die..It is for the purpose of being adopted into the family of the Universal Creator,as sons!  

1 John 3-

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother


At salvation we are taken from our fallen state and "REBORN" or "Born Again" and placed into the FAMILY of God and things are reversed regarding our sinful nature, in that, we no longer live for sin but we war
against our carnal and fleshly bodies to resist sins that we normally would have no problem committing..At this point we become alive to our Spirit and Dead to our physical bodies, literally..

Once we become part of God's family, we inherit all the universal kingdom of God. We are joint-heirs with Christ, the FIRST BORN of the Dead..

but now Christ has been raised from the dead, the Firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep (I Cor. 15:20)


who is the Beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be the First (Col. 1:18)


So know that when a person becomes "Saved" that this person also becomes God's familial Son or Daughter (Sorry, NOT both)

Now that we have established this fact, we can begin to look at the Church's relationship to "Christ, God's ONLY begotten Son"

The Church was founded on the day of Pentecost or the Feast of FIRST-FRUITS which is right after the Feast of Passover.

The FEAST OF PASSOVER and The LAMB of God.

The feast of Passover took place in direct line with the death of Jesus Christ and the death of Christ is a mirror image of the Passover.
The Sunday before Jesus was killed was the day we all know as Palm Sunday. This was an event in which Jesus instructed His followers to go and get
a small colt, which He would ride into Jerusalem, this would let EVERYONE know that He was coming into the Holy City as Messiah.Mashiach Nagid ( THE Messiah King)..Not "A" messiah king, but THE Messiah King!

Aka "The Triumphal Entry" as fulfilled in prophesy below:

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
 

This was a prophesy that was fulfilled by Jesus Christ ALONE. The prophesy was given 538BC to Daniel by the Angel Gabriel and it told the exact date of Palm Sunday, I mean the very EXACT day, when Christ made His entrance into Jerusalem, No one had ever DARE entered into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday in this manner,.THIS WAS A HUGE DEAL!! The Jews knew it was a HUGE deal..

Daniel 9:24-27

(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
(25) Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Not to get too technical, this prophesy should be a slap in the face as a wake up call to anyone who has any doubts to the accuracy of Christ's appearance, as MESSIAH, The time is ABSOLUTE!

The entry of Christ, into Jerusalem happened, just EXACTLY as foretold, happened EXACTLY when it was foretold to happen..


Behold, (Jesus )the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world"

The feast of Passover, or simply Passover, is a feast that was held to recall the mighty saving power of God and the Exodus Event for the Hebrews as captives and slaves while in Egypt. The events that led to Passover is when God gave Moses specific instructions to pick a PERFECT lamb as a sacrifice, This lamb was to spend 4 days with the family, the family was instructed to overlook the lamb and if ANY imperfections were spotted, the lamb was no good for sacrifice, no good for killing..After the inspection period was over, they were told specific instructions on how to prepare this lamb, one of which, was that NO BONES were to be BROKEN. Many know the rest of the instructions of taking the lambs blood and hyssop branches and paint the door post, this would allow the Angel of Death, as some call it, However, God said, He will "pass through the land" and if the blood was seen then He would "Pass-Over" their house, in which, if this was not done, ALL First born MALES would be killed.

First born MALE babies, first born cattle, first born sheep, etc, etc.. The Bible says, "Both Man and Beast"

Exodus 12

And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. 3Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: 4And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. 5Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 6And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 7And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 8And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. 11And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. 12For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. 13And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.


From the 10th day of this first month up until the 14th of the month and during this 4 days, not only was the lamb inspected for the slightest blemish, He was loved and adored!.





UPDATE 6/22/2011

Sorry it has taken me so long to update this post, I have been very busy with my personal life and work schedule and other work related issues involved..I had hoped to finish this rather quickly but I guess
Great things take time. I hope to complete this soon because I honestly believe "Time's short"

Understanding that the titles of which Christ was given have specific spiritual meaning is very important in knowing who Christ really is. The titles given throughout the Bible are given Him for purpose and now simply
because they sound important or that the titles simply show His attributes. The Titles have VERY SPECIFIC Meaning and show great detail to His spiritual purposes concerning the whole plan that is laid out
in biblical text.

Looking at the above references we can gain the understanding that Jesus was this "Lamb of God" and His death on the cross paralleled the exact sequences and time of the Passover Celebration in Jerusalem 2000 years ago. When Jesus succumbed to His wounds on the cross, the death of the Sacrificial Lamb was carried out by the Jewish priest and took place as it had for centuries under the Mosaic conditions given by God to the Hebrew people as they were instructed to do when they prepared to make their "Exodus" out of Egypt and avoid the last "Plague" set-forth by God against Pharaoh's rebellion.

Gaining the knowledge of who Jesus really was is very important. Understanding who Jesus IS in relation to the Church is even that much more important simply because we can know the Bible is true and is
in fact the inspired Word of God.

Looking at the Church and knowing the relationship that the Church has with Jesus Christ will give a more clear understanding of what Christians should expect concerning the return of our Bride Groom.

The Church is known as the Bride of Christ and this point is made very clear throughout the Bible. To understand the relationship the Church has with Christ it lets us know where we stand concerning the prophetic scriptures.

Understanding the Jewish wedding is paramount to understanding the return of Jesus Christ, the Rapture and the return of Jesus to Earth as Ruling and Reigning King..

Looking at the Jewish wedding we will begin to have a clear understanding of the Rapture. Jesus was a JEW and The Church is His "Bride"..

The completion of Jesus' Jewish wedding to His Bride WILL occur and it will occur to the exact letter of how an actual Jewish wedding feast would have occurred, had Jesus simply been just a normal
flesh and bones Jewish man, wedding his betrothed (Engaged/Promised/Bought) "Bride"..

The Jewish wedding is a direct parallel to the events of the Rapture concerning the Church and this will be shown in detail in the next few posts.


THE JEWISH WEDDING/ RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH and the Virgin Bride of Christ..

The Jewish wedding begins with one event. The Choice of the Bride.

Once a Jewish man chose who his lifetime "Mate" would be he had to approach the young maiden's father or guardian to negotiate a price. This price could have been paid in currency or Goods and
most of the time during antiquity, the price was paid in a mixture of both goods and currency.

In days past, women were not considered equals to men and a son was much more valued to those fathers in antiquity...Daughters were considered property and were traded for Gold, Silver, Jewels, Land, Livestock, were mostly used to pay what the father thought his daughter was worth to a man who wanted a wife. In many cases the daughters were traded on an open market for goods and surplus items such as camels,horses, donkeys and in some cases, even pigs were used to trade to those who were farmers by trade that were not of Jewish lineage of course.

Many times it didn't take much to trade for a young woman of an acceptable age. The more beauty, the more livestock or land. So if you had an ugly daughter of
age you were lucky to find someone who would give you a few animals in trade. But when it came to marriage of a young virgin, the price was quite high and in the case
of the Church Bride, the Price was DEATH and the very Blood of Jesus Christ.

The Guardian of the virgin bride was God the Father and the Price for her was the very life of Christ, The death of Jesus was the only acceptable price that would be paid to
free this Virgin Bride (The Church) from her Father's care.



































































Link Posted: 5/24/2011 3:43:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2011 7:31:39 PM EDT by GUNSFORHIRE]
Reserved for


The FEAST OF TRUMPETS


This is where I believe the Rapture of the Church will occur in regard to to the Jewish High-Holy Days


I will expand on Why the Church is known as "The Bride of Christ"


















































Link Posted: 5/24/2011 3:45:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2011 7:32:59 PM EDT by GUNSFORHIRE]
Continued

Feast of The Day of Atonement which follows the Feast of Trumpets


I will expand on the Feast of Tabernacles and the period of The Marriage Supper of the Lamb..
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 3:46:48 PM EDT
I believe the rapture is coming, but as the word says, no one knows when. I do believe that we can say that it is relatively soon judging by the signs and teachings that the bible told Christians to watch for.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 3:52:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GrIlLa:
I believe the rapture is coming, but as the word says, no one knows when. I do believe that we can say that it is relatively soon judging by the signs and teachings that the bible told Christians to watch for.


Stay tuned, I am hoping to show what I have come to know over 35 years within 3-4 blocks of posts..

I believe you are right too in your assessment of Birth Pangs..

It will be VERY soon..But soon to God and soon to Mankind may be longer than we'd hope..But I don't thing so..

I hope I can bring a better understanding to those who really want to know..This is my intentions anyway!

But right now I have a Ribeye waiting...I'll be back
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 4:20:59 PM EDT
IBTR!
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 4:37:26 PM EDT
Thanks For Posting This...

Numbers 6:24-26

- Clint
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 4:42:29 PM EDT
Oh good. Another thread stuffed with loopy christian End Times moonbattery.

We haven't had nearly enough of these.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 4:44:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Beltfedleadhead:
Oh good. Another thread stuffed with loopy christian End Times moonbattery.

We haven't had nearly enough of these.


You are free to stay or go.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 4:48:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GrIlLa:
Originally Posted By Beltfedleadhead:
Oh good. Another thread stuffed with loopy christian End Times moonbattery.

We haven't had nearly enough of these.


You are free to stay or go.


I'll stay.

I just love it how the loony christians crawl out of their caves and scream "THE END IS NEAR!!!!" when we have a some bad weather.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 4:51:30 PM EDT
Well, I didnt crawl out of a cave today or last Saturday, but I will say that Camping didnt read Scripture...........we dont know when it will happen, and most Christians discounted his views and his predictions when he made them this time and the time before..........that being said, the end will come someday when we dont expect it, which is why we are admonished to be watchful......and I aint that fond of bad weather.........


Originally Posted By Beltfedleadhead:
Originally Posted By GrIlLa:
Originally Posted By Beltfedleadhead:
Oh good. Another thread stuffed with loopy christian End Times moonbattery.

We haven't had nearly enough of these.


You are free to stay or go.


I'll stay.

I just love it how the loony christians crawl out of their caves and scream "THE END IS NEAR!!!!" when we have a some bad weather.


Link Posted: 5/24/2011 4:53:08 PM EDT
Nobody will know the day or the hour. If you think you do, then you are an idiot.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 4:55:43 PM EDT
I'm here for "The Great Snatch"!
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 5:07:40 PM EDT
Bring it Guns. You have my attention.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 5:43:48 PM EDT
Tag for the rest.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 5:50:13 PM EDT
The world is comming to an end. Eventually the sun will begin to die out and it will gobble up the earth. There might not be any humans on it at that time, but eventually the world will end.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 5:52:59 PM EDT
Tag
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 6:06:52 PM EDT
The history of the church has always had more than its share of false teachers who claim to have calculated and determined the time when Jesus will return in glory and judge mankind. While they may reach their conclusions in different ways, they all have one thing in common: they are false teachers and do not deserve our attention.

Jesus repeatedly emphasized that we are constantly and continuously to remain alert and prepared for the Last Day. That's ultimately all we know and need to know other than this: We are properly prepared for Christ's second coming when we know and rely on what he did for us at his first coming. Never are we instructed to calculate past dates of events (e.g., creation, the flood, Christ's crucifixion and resurrection), and never are we encouraged to calculate the future date of judgment day. Nowhere in the Bible are we given adequate information to enable us to do such things.

In other words, there is no validity to the subjective and irresponsible teachings of any date-setters.

Satan is delighted whenever Christians are misled by error or persuaded to focus inappropriate attention on worthless ideas at the expense of Bible truths including its central message about our sinfulness and our Savior Jesus Christ. The devil gets good use out of these false teachers and their sensationalistic pronouncements. Therefore, I'm outtahere.

Link Posted: 5/24/2011 6:20:49 PM EDT
My only question is not in regard to timing, because, for one thing, the Bible says we cannot know or predict the timing, and, secondly, it's not going to bloody happen anyway.





However, a serious concern is in regard to how such an important aspect of prophetic and apocalyptic events could remain so elusive until the 17th-18th century.



Lots of folks desperately try to interpret the Bible, literally or otherwise.  What did original Church writers or thinkers have to say about it?  Would one walk up to Justin Martyr and tell him how wrong he is, because our post-Modern translation is so great?






Link Posted: 5/24/2011 6:23:39 PM EDT
My Pre-Trib View Translated Into ARFCOM'ese:

Surprise aerial evac of all friendlies.  Rendevous with CinC in the air.  R&R in Heaven.

Chosen people will awaken and organize recruitment of indigent friendlies.  BG Leader will set up HQ in Jerusalem and command for 7 year period.  The first 3.5 years will be peaceful and he will deceive many.  The second 3.5 years will be marked with an increase in hostilities and massive and overwhelming persecution of insurgent friendlies.

Friendly CinC personally leads Airborne invasion with a force of all friendlies.  White horses - Air Cav.  Massive battle ensues resulting in overwhelming victory over BGs.  Friendly CinC throws chained BG Leader into fiery pit for 1,000 year confinement.  Friendly CinC assumes throne in Jerusalem and all friendlies enjoy a 1,000 year period of peace on AO Earth.

BG Leader is released for a short period and organizes massive forces for a revolt to overthrow Friendly CinC and friendly forces.  Overwhelming BG army consisting of TF Gog and TF Magog surrounds friendlies into an ever shrinking circle, and take a final stand at the "Camp of the Saints".  Massive BG siege is about to overrun friendlies, when God calls in a huge airstrike which wipes out BG forces.  BG Leader and his forces are cast into the Lake of Fire forever.  Hostilities are concluded.

Heaven and Earth are destroyed and a New Heaven and New Earth are created for friendlies to reside with Friendly CinC forever.  And the friendlies do not shed tears for the BGs.  Amen.

I'm gtg YMMV.  
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 6:24:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2011 6:29:58 PM EDT by zeekh]
Sorry for the hijack

I have a question unrelated to the topic. For some reason, this thread is extra wide and doesn't fit on my computer screen. Other threads on ARFCOM fit normally. Does anyone know the reason for this?

ETA: Its only the OP's first post.The rest are normal
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 6:27:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GrIlLa:
Originally Posted By Beltfedleadhead:
Oh good. Another thread stuffed with loopy christian End Times moonbattery.

We haven't had nearly enough of these.


You are free to stay or go.


This,

If you stay, keep it civil
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 6:27:37 PM EDT
i don't know when christ is coming but I kinda hope its soon. this world
is falling hard and I"m ready for christ to come and get his people!
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 6:31:28 PM EDT
Why do so many people absess about the "end times". If Christ comes tonight, next week, 40 years from now or 4000 years from now the outcome is the same. Live your life as if He might come tonight and you'll probably get through it OK.

I don't think freaking out about it will change the outcome one bit so I wish people would quit wasting their energies on trying to predict the behavior of God whom they believe is all powerful.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:01:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2011 7:01:39 PM EDT by Beltfedleadhead]
Originally Posted By zeekh:
Originally Posted By GrIlLa:
Originally Posted By Beltfedleadhead:
Oh good. Another thread stuffed with loopy christian End Times moonbattery.

We haven't had nearly enough of these.


You are free to stay or go.


This,

If you stay, keep it civil


Foolish nonsense in threads like this is just one more obstacle I have to overcome when trying to convince people that gun owners aren't all end-times obsessed fundamentalist jackasses.

Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:06:47 PM EDT
Good grief you guys can't be serious.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:06:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Brownie63:
My Pre-Trib View Translated Into ARFCOM'ese:

Surprise aerial evac of all friendlies.  Rendevous with CinC in the air.  R&R in Heaven.

Chosen people will awaken and organize recruitment of indigent friendlies.  BG Leader will set up HQ in Jerusalem and command for 7 year period.  The first 3.5 years will be peaceful and he will deceive many.  The second 3.5 years will be marked with an increase in hostilities and massive and overwhelming persecution of insurgent friendlies.

Friendly CinC personally leads Airborne invasion with a force of all friendlies.  White horses - Air Cav.  Massive battle ensues resulting in overwhelming victory over BGs.  Friendly CinC throws chained BG Leader into fiery pit for 1,000 year confinement.  Friendly CinC assumes throne in Jerusalem and all friendlies enjoy a 1,000 year period of peace on AO Earth.

BG Leader is released for a short period and organizes massive forces for a revolt to overthrow Friendly CinC and friendly forces.  Overwhelming BG army consisting of TF Gog and TF Magog surrounds friendlies into an ever shrinking circle, and take a final stand at the "Camp of the Saints".  Massive BG siege is about to overrun friendlies, when God calls in a huge airstrike which wipes out BG forces.  BG Leader and his forces are cast into the Lake of Fire forever.  Hostilities are concluded.

Heaven and Earth are destroyed and a New Heaven and New Earth are created for friendlies to reside with Friendly CinC forever.  And the friendlies do not shed tears for the BGs.  Amen.

I'm gtg YMMV.  


Pretty good and clever.

Wait, I resemble that comment.

GM

Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:07:42 PM EDT
Jesus is a comin'
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:10:16 PM EDT
we can know the "season" but not the day



I think we are in the "season" for sure



I pray for the Lord's return, I'm growing tired of this place, fast, not much good to talk about in the world or our nation today.


Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:11:01 PM EDT



Originally Posted By M4Real:


Nobody will know the day or the hour. If you think you do, then you are an idiot.


God will make a fool out of you just like he did Camping



 
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:12:38 PM EDT



Originally Posted By goodmedicine:



Originally Posted By Brownie63:

My Pre-Trib View Translated Into ARFCOM'ese:



Surprise aerial evac of all friendlies.  Rendevous with CinC in the air.  R&R in Heaven.



Chosen people will awaken and organize recruitment of indigent friendlies.  BG Leader will set up HQ in Jerusalem and command for 7 year period.  The first 3.5 years will be peaceful and he will deceive many.  The second 3.5 years will be marked with an increase in hostilities and massive and overwhelming persecution of insurgent friendlies.



Friendly CinC personally leads Airborne invasion with a force of all friendlies.  White horses - Air Cav.  Massive battle ensues resulting in overwhelming victory over BGs.  Friendly CinC throws chained BG Leader into fiery pit for 1,000 year confinement.  Friendly CinC assumes throne in Jerusalem and all friendlies enjoy a 1,000 year period of peace on AO Earth.



BG Leader is released for a short period and organizes massive forces for a revolt to overthrow Friendly CinC and friendly forces.  Overwhelming BG army consisting of TF Gog and TF Magog surrounds friendlies into an ever shrinking circle, and take a final stand at the "Camp of the Saints".  Massive BG siege is about to overrun friendlies, when God calls in a huge airstrike which wipes out BG forces.  BG Leader and his forces are cast into the Lake of Fire forever.  Hostilities are concluded.



Heaven and Earth are destroyed and a New Heaven and New Earth are created for friendlies to reside with Friendly CinC forever.  And the friendlies do not shed tears for the BGs.  Amen.



I'm gtg YMMV.  




Pretty good and clever.



Wait, I resemble that comment.



GM









 
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:18:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By WindKnot1-1:
The history of the church has always had more than its share of false teachers who claim to have calculated and determined the time when Jesus will return in glory and judge mankind. While they may reach their conclusions in different ways, they all have one thing in common: they are false teachers and do not deserve our attention.

Jesus repeatedly emphasized that we are constantly and continuously to remain alert and prepared for the Last Day. That's ultimately all we know and need to know other than this: We are properly prepared for Christ's second coming when we know and rely on what he did for us at his first coming. Never are we instructed to calculate past dates of events (e.g., creation, the flood, Christ's crucifixion and resurrection), and never are we encouraged to calculate the future date of judgment day. Nowhere in the Bible are we given adequate information to enable us to do such things.

In other words, there is no validity to the subjective and irresponsible teachings of any date-setters.

Satan is delighted whenever Christians are misled by error or persuaded to focus inappropriate attention on worthless ideas at the expense of Bible truths including its central message about our sinfulness and our Savior Jesus Christ. The devil gets good use out of these false teachers and their sensationalistic pronouncements. Therefore, I'm outtahere.



Before you blast your mouth off and call me a false teacher you may want to delve a little deeper into your Bible because there are MANY references to the return of Christ..It was their Blessed Hope and we were
all instructed to keep watch..

As a matter of fact, when you are saved you have a measure of The Holy Spirit that resides inside you and if you listen to the drawing of God you will be led into the paths of Truth..

I know without any doubt what God has shown me because there have been times in my life that when had I not listened to that "Drawing and leading Voice", I'd be a dead man!

I knew that this subject would be met here with ridicule and yet God "told" me to do it anyway..

It is a sad thing that most people cannot discern the clear voice of their Creator..But let me tell you this..When we shut up and listen, You will know the voice of the Shepard.

God is NOT dead, God is NOT asleep, in fact, God is ALIVE and He still deals with mankind as a whole and as individuals just as clearly as He did when the pages of scripture states, "Jesus is the same, yesterday, today and FOREVER".. Also, "He is no *respecter* of persons"..Meaning that if one individual will meet the conditions set by God and can have an intimate relationship, including divine guidance, ANYONE can have
that same relationship, bearing in mind they are One of His own..

Jesus said, My sheep know my voice and another they will not follow" and "a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers"

The problem is this...People think God is DEAD or Gone and I can tell you that is a lie from the pit of hell but people want God dead and people want God gone..Because it removes any and all accountability of
SIN..

As I have learned in my life..You can always seem to convince the most devout atheist or agnostic that God is real and that we are in fact a created entity..But the problem is when people want to bring God to their
level of morality..IF one believes that God is, in fact, the God of HOLINESS, then they want to squirm and deny..Because they have to admit they are GUILTY of SIN and that is part of the GOSPEL..Jesus came to seperate the Light from the Dark, wheat from the tares

This is One reason Jesus came to this Earth...TO DIVIDE, not unite!..

Jesus said, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword"..Matt 10

The other reason is to seek and to save those who were lost..

Feel free to stay or Go..I said I'd never set a date but simply point to facts about what the Bible says..

So, using scripture, UNLIKE Mr Fancypants Camping, who made up some mumbo jumbo numerology and took millions from hapless souls, I offer the Bible's Take on what is referenced toward The gathering of or Rapture of God's CHOSEN, Saved, People..

I know that over the last few days a LOT of damage was done and I personally believe it was Lucifer's doings because people will now be "put-off" by anything "Rapture" and I don't think for a second that it happened
in this moment in time by random events..

The Bible is very clear. Lucifer knows that his time is drawing to a close and he is preparing to deceive the masses any way he possibly can..We are NOT to be in ignorance of his schemes and devices..

This thread topic is damage control for the TRUTH of GOD'S Events which are coming upon this unwary earth..

When people are guaranteeing Peace and Safety..Prepare for sudden destruction and I refuse to let some False Prophet distract MILLIONS of people who know NOTHING of the Word of God and Nor just how
close they are to an everlasting Hell and if it harelips Beelzebub..I will at the VERY least, Tell (post) that which God's word instructs Mankind to in regard to, either their demise, or hopeful salvation..

"as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" Matt 24:37

In the flood of Noah's day, God destroyed the entire planet's inhabitants -minus EIGHT elect Souls!

Everyone assuredly mocked Noah building a huge ship in a place that had never so much as had a drop of rain..

God is about to fulfill His promises concerning this Earth and the dominion of sinful man(kind)..We are about to be exterminated, minus those who trust in Christ Jesus as their escape!

This time, Jesus IS the Ark!

Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:19:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Beltfedleadhead:
Oh good. Another thread stuffed with loopy christian End Times moonbattery.

We haven't had nearly enough of these.


Please let the man make his point.........
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:20:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
My only question is not in regard to timing, because, for one thing, the Bible says we cannot know or predict the timing, and, secondly, it's not going to bloody happen anyway.


However, a serious concern is in regard to how such an important aspect of prophetic and apocalyptic events could remain so elusive until the 17th-18th century.

Lots of folks desperately try to interpret the Bible, literally or otherwise.  What did original Church writers or thinkers have to say about it?  Would one walk up to Justin Martyr and tell him how wrong he is, because our post-Modern translation is so great?




My thoughts exactly. Not one mention of a pre-trib rapture for 1700+ years, but suddenly it's there because a 16 year old girl, going to an apostate church, saw a vision.

No thanks
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:22:02 PM EDT
My serious reply to the serious discussion is as follows:

No.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:22:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2011 7:24:25 PM EDT by GUNSFORHIRE]
Originally Posted By Brownie63:
My Pre-Trib View Translated Into ARFCOM'ese:

Surprise aerial evac of all friendlies.  Rendevous with CinC in the air.  R&R in Heaven.

Chosen people will awaken and organize recruitment of indigent friendlies.  BG Leader will set up HQ in Jerusalem and command for 7 year period.  The first 3.5 years will be peaceful and he will deceive many.  The second 3.5 years will be marked with an increase in hostilities and massive and overwhelming persecution of insurgent friendlies.

Friendly CinC personally leads Airborne invasion with a force of all friendlies.  White horses - Air Cav.  Massive battle ensues resulting in overwhelming victory over BGs.  Friendly CinC throws chained BG Leader into fiery pit for 1,000 year confinement.  Friendly CinC assumes throne in Jerusalem and all friendlies enjoy a 1,000 year period of peace on AO Earth.

BG Leader is released for a short period and organizes massive forces for a revolt to overthrow Friendly CinC and friendly forces.  Overwhelming BG army consisting of TF Gog and TF Magog surrounds friendlies into an ever shrinking circle, and take a final stand at the "Camp of the Saints".  Massive BG siege is about to overrun friendlies, when God calls in a huge airstrike which wipes out BG forces.  BG Leader and his forces are cast into the Lake of Fire forever.  Hostilities are concluded.

Heaven and Earth are destroyed and a New Heaven and New Earth are created for friendlies to reside with Friendly CinC forever.  And the friendlies do not shed tears for the BGs.  Amen.

I'm gtg YMMV.  


Ha Ha....

That is the most correct and awesome description of Christian eschatology and the End-Times events I have ever seen!

You must add the building of the Temple and expand on the Demon Locust attack for 5 months and copyright your assessment and send it into
to somewhere as a Military Tract Mission!

Knowing the language, I can say that was really awesome!
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:23:04 PM EDT
Do we not have a religion forum?
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:25:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bulldog1967:
Do we not have a religion forum?


That's only for non argument inducing discussions though.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:29:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2011 7:31:54 PM EDT by Xanatos903]
So Heaven and Earth will pass away? What about:

Psalm 37:29
Psalm 78:69
Psalm 104:5
Ecclesiastes 1:4

Seems to me like earth's going to be here for a while, and so is the human race.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:33:33 PM EDT
Good Post GunsForHire



- Clint
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:35:20 PM EDT
That depends on what eschatology in the Bible you suscribe to.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:40:57 PM EDT
Good post, I'm tagging to read more tomorrow.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:41:00 PM EDT
the rapture is a false teaching that was started in the 1800 by darby and scofield.

by rapture, i mean the snatching up of saved individuals prior to a tribulation period.

jesus never said anything about a rapture. he talked of end times, the signs and the fact that 'no one knows when it is'.

go read the gospels, go read what jesus said. then come back and tell me about how a bunch of individuals will be snatched up into heaven leaving the vast majority to suffer through the tribulation.

Link Posted: 5/24/2011 7:41:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GUNSFORHIRE:

Before you blast your mouth off and call me a false teacher you may want to delve a little deeper into your Bible because there are MANY references to the return of Christ..It was their Blessed Hope and we were
all instructed to keep watch...


And I'm drawn back in like a moth to a flame...

First, I call them as I see them. Yep, you've quoted several verses... out of context.

Dispensationalism (and that's what you're expousing) is contrary to various clear and explicit Bible statements and based on misinterpretations of several Bible prophecies (mostly in the Old Testament). Many mention Revelation 16:16 for example, with its reference to Armageddon. Armageddon is Hebrew for "hill [or mountain] of Meggido" a frequent site of battles in the history of Palestine due to its strategic location. Dispensationalists understand the Bible verse as a reference to a physical battle to take place at that specific geographical location within the boundaries of modern Israel. When understood in its context of apocalyptic literature and visions, it may more reasonably be understood as a pictorial affirmation that the forces of evil (Satan and his angels plus wicked people hostile to the gospel and Christ's people) will be thoroughly dealt with by the Lord when he returns in glory. The modern nation of Israel, that is, the individual members of that nation, will be judged on the basis of their relationship to the Messiah, Jesus Christ. The same is true of all mankind.

.The Church has been in its period of tribulation since shortly after Christ's ascension. You are right, "these are the end times." Christ will return to take up the believers... ON JUDGEMENT DAY. There are no new warning signs that haven't been around since then. We have been overwhelmed with false teachers and anti-christs. but there is no "Rapture". (or at least not before JD)
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 8:06:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2011 8:09:19 PM EDT by TEMPLARKNIGHT]
Originally Posted By Brownie63:
My Pre-Trib View Translated Into ARFCOM'ese:

Surprise aerial evac of all friendlies.  Rendevous with CinC in the air.  R&R in Heaven.

Chosen people will awaken and organize recruitment of indigent friendlies.  BG Leader will set up HQ in Jerusalem and command for 7 year period.  The first 3.5 years will be peaceful and he will deceive many.  The second 3.5 years will be marked with an increase in hostilities and massive and overwhelming persecution of insurgent friendlies.

Friendly CinC personally leads Airborne invasion with a force of all friendlies.  White horses - Air Cav.  Massive battle ensues resulting in overwhelming victory over BGs.  Friendly CinC throws chained BG Leader into fiery pit for 1,000 year confinement.  Friendly CinC assumes throne in Jerusalem and all friendlies enjoy a 1,000 year period of peace on AO Earth.

BG Leader is released for a short period and organizes massive forces for a revolt to overthrow Friendly CinC and friendly forces.  Overwhelming BG army consisting of TF Gog and TF Magog surrounds friendlies into an ever shrinking circle, and take a final stand at the "Camp of the Saints".  Massive BG siege is about to overrun friendlies, when God calls in a huge airstrike which wipes out BG forces.  BG Leader and his forces are cast into the Lake of Fire forever.  Hostilities are concluded.

Heaven and Earth are destroyed and a New Heaven and New Earth are created for friendlies to reside with Friendly CinC forever.  And the friendlies do not shed tears for the BGs.  Amen.

I'm gtg YMMV.  

Awesome synopsis; I believe(mostly; you missed a point or two)approximately this. This is what the Bible teaches.

Link Posted: 5/24/2011 8:12:05 PM EDT
OP, thank you.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 8:24:03 PM EDT
In on 1?
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 8:25:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2011 8:26:47 PM EDT by dan45678]
Originally Posted By postpostban:
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
My only question is not in regard to timing, because, for one thing, the Bible says we cannot know or predict the timing, and, secondly, it's not going to bloody happen anyway.


However, a serious concern is in regard to how such an important aspect of prophetic and apocalyptic events could remain so elusive until the 17th-18th century.

Lots of folks desperately try to interpret the Bible, literally or otherwise.  What did original Church writers or thinkers have to say about it?  Would one walk up to Justin Martyr and tell him how wrong he is, because our post-Modern translation is so great?




My thoughts exactly. Not one mention of a pre-trib rapture for 1700+ years, but suddenly it's there because a 16 year old girl, going to an apostate church, saw a vision.

No thanks


Agreed. I was a dispensationalist for years until I learned about post-millennialism. Ninety percent of what is written in the Revelation of St. John occurred within the first century of the church.

Days of Vengeance by David Chilton is a great read on this.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 8:31:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MajorStumpDemon:
the rapture is a false teaching that was started in the 1800 by darby and scofield.

by rapture, i mean the snatching up of saved individuals prior to a tribulation period.

jesus never said anything about a rapture. he talked of end times, the signs and the fact that 'no one knows when it is'.

go read the gospels, go read what jesus said. then come back and tell me about how a bunch of individuals will be snatched up into heaven leaving the vast majority to suffer through the tribulation.



You guys who don't know your Bible but spit out trash like it is fact need to at least TRY to use your Bible for what it is intended for!

The Bible CLEARLY teaches a Rapture of the Saints to avoid the HOUR OF TEMPTATION



1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


2 Thessalonians 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


1 Corinthians 15:50-54

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


Revelation 3: 10-Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


After Chapter 4 Revelation, The Church is NOT mentioned ONCE during the "Judgments of God"..Not until the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and when The BRIDE OF CHRIST is Revealed..

I PLAN on showing the direct relationship of the Church aka The Bride of Christ, The Jewish Wedding Ceremony aka Feast of Trumpets and The Marriage Supper of the Lamb..

Sadly, People MAY know how the Bible "reads" but many sure cannot tell what GOD is clearly saying..

Mind you, I do not go to Church and I have never been taught any of this other than by what God has taught me through His Spirit..It is very sad people just cannot discern TRUTH!

But of course, I ARE crazy man talk because I didn't go to some liberal theology seminary..

I always love to tell them I learned it from my Father's very own Son..

1 John 2:27-But the anointing which you have received of him stays in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.
Link Posted: 5/24/2011 8:34:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2011 8:38:03 PM EDT by Kuraki]
I all want to know is what I'm going to have to deal with once you all are raptured.  If I can't can make SHTF preps for zombies with a straight face, well, post-rapture apocalypse is probably every bit as likely.
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