Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Posted: 11/3/2009 4:05:30 PM EST
If you were a gun person back in the 1980s like I was, you doubtlessly heard of "the Strasbourg Goat Tests" regarding effective handgun stopping power.

Supposedly these tests were conducted in Strasbourg, France.

It was whispered at the time that the part about these tests being done "in France" was bullshit, and that they were actually done in the United States, but the "France" part was a cover story to keep the animal rights people in America from going apeshit.

What's the hive mind verdict on this?
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:10:36 PM EST
IB Keith_J and Zhukov go at it.

At least, that's what happened the last time we had this thread.

It probably happened. Stuff is better now.

PETA still sucks.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:12:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/3/2009 4:13:07 PM EST by LungShot]
They could have yielded better results by shooting a couple hundred pissed-off live Chimps.

Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:13:48 PM EST
Either way, it makes me nervous.

TRG
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:15:42 PM EST
Hoax.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:21:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By DonS:
Hoax.


If it was a hoax, it certainly took in a lot of knowledgeable people.

The gun magazines (i.e., the kind you read - not the kind you load) were all abuzz about this in the late 80s and early 90s.

Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:21:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Either way, it makes me nervous.

TRG

Why should it? They're testing ammunition, not buttplugs.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:22:53 PM EST
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:27:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.


+1

If you've ever raised a goat you know they are worthless, disgusting animals.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:30:28 PM EST
That's how I learned that pigs are unsuited for testing due to their bone composition.

I still prefer using the homeless and criminally insane, though.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:32:57 PM EST
Certain medics somewhere still have to save "thier" goat after it takes a 556 . I have never seen this but I also know that sheep get put into cardiac arrest then defribrilated
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:33:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By SevenMaryThree:
That's how I learned that pigs are unsuited for testing due to their bone composition.

I still prefer using the homeless and criminally insane, though.

I'd prefer the animal rightists be used.

Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:36:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:37:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By omega62:
Originally Posted By DonS:
Hoax.


If it was a hoax, it certainly took in a lot of knowledgeable people.

The gun magazines (i.e., the kind you read - not the kind you load) were all abuzz about this in the late 80s and early 90s.



Mostly ones under one publisher, IIRC.

The data is "neat", and it "neatly" matches that of the "one shot stop" data. It shouts fabrication.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:41:17 PM EST
I went to a gun store looking for a .45 pistol. Guy tried to sell me a used 9mm he had laying around. Pulled out a worn copy of a Strasbourg Goat article in order to show me that a 9mm loaded with Glasers would kick just as much ass as a .45 ACP. I just told the nice man, "Thanks. I think I'm gonna keep looking."
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:45:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By omega62:
Originally Posted By DonS:
Hoax.


If it was a hoax, it certainly took in a lot of knowledgeable people.

The gun magazines (i.e., the kind you read - not the kind you load) were all abuzz about this in the late 80s and early 90s.



Mostly ones under one publisher, IIRC.

The data is "neat", and it "neatly" matches that of the "one shot stop" data. It shouts fabrication.


Okay, I'm willing to entertain the possibility of a hoax.

But my question for you is, what was the motive for it then?

Boost gun magazine sales for Petersen Publications?

Boost ammo sales for certain loads?
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 4:47:41 PM EST
Originally Posted By omega62:
Originally Posted By DonS:
Originally Posted By omega62:
Originally Posted By DonS:
Hoax.


If it was a hoax, it certainly took in a lot of knowledgeable people.

The gun magazines (i.e., the kind you read - not the kind you load) were all abuzz about this in the late 80s and early 90s.



Mostly ones under one publisher, IIRC.

The data is "neat", and it "neatly" matches that of the "one shot stop" data. It shouts fabrication.


Okay, I'm willing to entertain the possibility of a hoax.

But my question for you is, what was the motive for it then?

Boost gun magazine sales for Petersen Publications?

Boost ammo sales for certain loads?


Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:33:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By texas_mustang_01:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.


+1

If you've ever raised a goat you know they are worthless, disgusting animals.


You're startin to piss me off.

TRG
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 4:57:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 4:59:01 AM EST by AcidGambit]
Yes the test took place and no it wasn't really in France. It wasn't a hoax or fabricated.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:10:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.


Maybe you have not met the right goat? A goat makes a better pet than a cat.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:13:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By turboscott:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.


Maybe you have not met the right goat? A goat makes a better pet than a cat.


Not setting the bar very high there. Do they also make better pets than houseplants?
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:16:50 AM EST
No wonder goats are endangered. I bet they didn't even eat the damned things.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:22:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By Eric802:
Originally Posted By turboscott:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.


Maybe you have not met the right goat? A goat makes a better pet than a cat.


Not setting the bar very high there. Do they also make better pets than houseplants?


Invite me over for the weekend, I'll let you see first hand.

TRG
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:24:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:26:15 AM EST


For some reason I can't stop laughing at this.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:31:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By Eric802:
Originally Posted By turboscott:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.


Maybe you have not met the right goat? A goat makes a better pet than a cat.


Not setting the bar very high there. Do they also make better pets than houseplants?


yes they do. In some parts, all a man needs is his goat/sheep. Don't knock it 'till you have tried it.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 5:52:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Eric802:
Originally Posted By turboscott:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.


Maybe you have not met the right goat? A goat makes a better pet than a cat.


Not setting the bar very high there. Do they also make better pets than houseplants?


Invite me over for the weekend, I'll let you see first hand.

TRG


I am not inviting you over, heard to many stories. Frankly I dont like checking my 6 that often.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 6:11:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By texas_mustang_01:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.


+1

If you've ever raised a goat you know they are worthless, disgusting animals.


I raise goats. You must not eat them.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 6:19:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Eric802:
Originally Posted By turboscott:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.


Maybe you have not met the right goat? A goat makes a better pet than a cat.


Not setting the bar very high there. Do they also make better pets than houseplants?


Invite me over for the weekend, I'll let you see first hand.

TRG


I have been making trips to Texas pretty regularly...but I wouldn't want anything to spoil the fond memories I have of you and your tractor at Gunstock I.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 6:37:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By DTAK:
Originally Posted By texas_mustang_01:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.


+1

If you've ever raised a goat you know they are worthless, disgusting animals.


I raise goats. You must not eat them.


I have eaten goat it is disgusting.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 6:53:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By DTAK:
Originally Posted By texas_mustang_01:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.


+1

If you've ever raised a goat you know they are worthless, disgusting animals.


I raise goats. You must not eat them.


I have eaten goat it is disgusting.

+2

They taste just like they smelled when they were alive.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 6:54:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By navvet89:

Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By DTAK:
Originally Posted By texas_mustang_01:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.


+1

If you've ever raised a goat you know they are worthless, disgusting animals.


I raise goats. You must not eat them.


I have eaten goat it is disgusting.

+2

They taste just like they smelled when they were alive.


Someone must have screwed them up in the cooking, cause they are delicious (when I've had it anyway)
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 7:00:16 AM EST
Horseshit.

Just like the "one shot stop nonsense".

A complete listing of the utter silliness of this garbage is located in the Ammo Oracle, or the links contained therein.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 7:02:54 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 7:14:03 AM EST
If goats are so smart why do they live in igloos?
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 7:25:19 AM EST
Maybe people were confusing them with the Thompson-LaGarde Cadaver Tests of 1904?
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 7:36:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By Forest:
Fraud.

Courtesty of FirearmsTactical.com & Dr Martin Fackler:

CHAPTER 4 –– "Strasbourg Goat Tests." Here Marshall and Sanow reproduced the aforementioned anonymous "Strasbourg Tests." In analyzing these purported test results, Marshall and Sanow found an "extremely high rank correlation" with their very own "actual street results." Interestingly, if we compare the shot trajectories in the purported "Strasbourg Tests" with that of the most common shots in humans, we find:

A bullet fired into a goat from side to side, above the heart and behind the shoulder, will pass through or very near the major pulmonary vessels at a penetration depth of three to five inches, and must pass through the mediastinum, either near or through other very large blood vessels.

Conversely, with a shot passing front to back in the human torso, most bullets do not pass near or through the aorta or vena cava until more than six inches of penetration depth in a small slender person and at greater penetration depth in a larger person, or if penetrating at a significant angle.

Due to human anatomy, most shots from the front do not come near major blood vessels. Most go through perforating just lungs near their periphery or just loops of bowel.

Given these facts, the near perfect correlation of Marshall's random torso "one-shot stops" with the purported goat shot results is strong evidence that the anonymous "Strasbourg Test" results have been fabricated or doctored; or the "one-shot stop" results have, or both have.

Some might argue that the "Strasbourg Test" results could be from a real experiment; but one planned with incredible incompetence.5 A few things, however, do not ring true: for example, they mention great difficulty in finding enough goats for the study. Yet, strangely, each of the more than 600 goats found purportedly weighed within four pounds of 160 pounds. Anybody familiar with large animal experimentation realizes that here Marshall and Sanow apparently fell into another "too good to be true" trap.


M&S fell into the "too good to be true" trap on every set of collected fabricated data.

Link Posted: 11/4/2009 7:39:09 AM EST


Yeah, a buddy who was an SF Medic told me that had to keep goats alive after they were shot for training.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 7:44:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By omega62:
Okay, I'm willing to entertain the possibility of a hoax.

But my question for you is, what was the motive for it then?

Boost gun magazine sales for Petersen Publications?

Boost ammo sales for certain loads?


You could also throw in "Boost book sales". However, I'm not convinced that fraud of this nature boils down to one simple motive.

I suspect that they fell for the "energy dump" BS that was common among "experts" of the 70s and early 80s (and at least in an off the record way, aided the Air Force is pushing the M9 9 mm). When M&S started out the importance of penetration was not well appreciated. I think they believed they were giving good advice, and they benifitted from articles, fame, and book sales, and IIRC even ammo sales. I think they had a complex web of motives.

Link Posted: 11/4/2009 7:58:49 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 8:17:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By Eric802:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Eric802:
Originally Posted By turboscott:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
If it is one thing I hate in this world it is a goat.


Maybe you have not met the right goat? A goat makes a better pet than a cat.


Not setting the bar very high there. Do they also make better pets than houseplants?


Invite me over for the weekend, I'll let you see first hand.

TRG


I have been making trips to Texas pretty regularly...but I wouldn't want anything to spoil the fond memories I have of you and your tractor at Gunstock I.


You should IM me for a date.

TRG
Top Top