Go to the link...read the article, and some of the others posted there.....then come back here and give your opinion....in other words...What say you, Arfcommers?  Is now the time to reconstitute our several Militias in the States, to do what the Federal government and our State governments have refused to do?

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd174.htm

http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty135.htm


_______________________________________________________________________________________
"Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say, 'What
should be the reward of such sacrifices?' ... If ye love wealth better
than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of
freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch
down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon
you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" --Samuel Adams

Interesting article! Why do you think the .gov and their media lackeys have been on a 20 year long campaign to malign and misconstrue the true meaning of Militia? I'd give you odds that at least 95% of the American populus believes that Militia members are looney right-wing redneck enemies of the state, that will kill them at the drop of a hat!

Things being such as they are, you will have to provide a major media campaign for some years into the future to correct the public mis-conceptions with regards to the Militias' intent, legallity, neccessity, and legitimacy. Sad but true. Otherwise, you will merely be trying to recruit to an organization with the publicly percieved worth of Hammas.

When the state works against the interests of the people, then the state ceases to be legitimate.

America was founded without professional police and military (early 1600’s not 1791),  America was founded on the precepts self government, they formed their own systems of due process and justice, formed their own militias and elected their own peace officers as needed not as an excuse for police states and standing armies to plunder their neighbors with violence.

The state representatives no longer protect the peoples interests and rights, ["The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence." --John Adams] so as a result the economy and the law that America was founded upon is gone and the nation and it’s industries is near death.

What this means is the super power of the U.S. Will fall as surely as Babylon and all the arrogant  criminal police and military will cease to exist as a super power leaving the people to defend themselves just as they did in the beginning.

The militia is the only solution to the problems that face America !

James Madison on Standing Armies and continual warfare Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people.... [There is also an] inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and ... degeneracy of manners and of morals.... No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

UNorganized militia is key.

a loose-knit group with common goals, but lacking central organization or leadership.

a "militia" in the traditional sense (organized and training) would be hit by a bomb before ever taking up arms.

Quoted: America was founded without professional police and military (early 1600’s not 1791),  America was founded on the precepts self government, they formed their own systems of due process and justice, formed their own militias and elected their own peace officers as needed not as an excuse for police states and standing armies to plunder their neighbors with violence.

When you have a tiny colony of a few hundred or even a few thousand citizens, it can pretty much self-police itself, rightly or wrongly. We are now a nation of 300 million people. You need  groups like a professional law enforcement and a standing professional  military force.

Last time I checked, the US military and law enforcement bodies ARE formed from its own citizens, and no ones "plundering" anyone.

Quoted: Quoted: America was founded without professional police and military (early 1600’s not 1791),  America was founded on the precepts self government, they formed their own systems of due process and justice, formed their own militias and elected their own peace officers as needed not as an excuse for police states and standing armies to plunder their neighbors with violence. When you have a tiny colony of a few hundred or even a few thousand citizens, it can pretty much self-police itself, rightly or wrongly. We are now a nation of 300 million people. You need  groups like a professional law enforcement and a standing professional  military force. Last time I checked, the US military and law enforcement bodies ARE formed from its own citizens, and no ones "plundering" anyone.

Whatever you say.

Quoted: Last time I checked, the US military and law enforcement bodies ARE formed from its own citizens, and no ones "plundering" anyone.

Peace Officers are elected or appointed by the township (Ten competent electors/heads of households) the militia is volunteer and donate their time and own arms in training and preparation, voluntary verses the excissive compelled taxation necessary to support professional police and militaries.

If you force people to pay onerous taxes to support the organization used to collect the taxes that is indeed plunder !

Quoted: Quoted: Last time I checked, the US military and law enforcement bodies ARE formed from its own citizens, and no ones "plundering" anyone. Peace Officers are elected or appointed by the township (Ten competent electors/heads of households) the militia is volunteer and donate their time and own arms in training and preparation, voluntary verses the excessive compelled taxation necessary to support professional police and militaries. If you force people to pay onerous taxes to support the organization used to collect the taxes that is indeed plunder !

Your expectation is unrealistic in a modern society and it is no wonder that you are disappointed by modern society if that is the sort of standard you are expecting to be upheld.

Quoted: Your expectation is unrealistic in a modern society and it is no wonder that you are disappointed by modern society if that is the sort of standard you are expecting to be upheld.

"The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence." --John Adams

Taxation is the power to destroy, if you eat all the wheat and leave none for seed you will soon starve, the state is too large to support with the amount of industry we now have in the U.S.   so instead encouraging industry by reducing taxes the state now increases taxation to support more force to collect more taxes.

Survivors must repeat the failed history lesson !

Texas has a State Guard.  They are under the command of the Governor and CANNOT be federalized.  As such, they can never be called to service in any other state and are for state emergencies only.  They drill but without pay, only being compensated in times when the governor calls them to duty.

This is a special part of the organized militia.  But the unorganized militia are males from 17 to 44 and those with prior service who are under the age of 64, inclusive of females with prior service

Release date: 2005-07-12 (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b) The classes of the militia are— (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode10/usc_sec_10_00000311----000-.html

Quoted: Texas has a State Guard.  They are under the command of the Governor

The state is supposed to be under the command of the people but just in case the state became tyrannical the militia exists as the remedy not under control of the state.

The militia being composed of the people is supposed to control the state if it exceeds it's authoirty.

Tench Coxe on the Second Amendment Whereas civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.

Quoted: Quoted: Texas has a State Guard.  They are under the command of the Governor The state is supposed to be under the command of the people but just in case the state became tyrannical the militia exists as the remedy not under control of the state. The militia being composed of the people is supposed to control the state if it exceeds it's authoirty.

One of their missions is to suppress insurrections too so you can bet they'd be on the government's side of any skirmish.

Quoted: One of their missions is to suppress insurrections too so you can bet they'd be on the government's side of any skirmish.

The main precept of the constitutional republic is to put some things beyond the power of the vote, NO majority can tyrannize the individual without breaking the law !

A majority has no power/force/authority to break the law and violate the rights of the individual.

OK...Rant ON....

     Here we are in this year 2006, engaged in a World War (and it is, whether you want it to be or not); our news media, entertainment industry, and even at least a third of the Congress and Senate (feds) engage daily in treasonous rhetoric; not to mention the "educators" of our children; our elected representatives refuse to listen to the will of the people on almost any issue you care to name and instead carry out their plots to dissolve the sovereignty of this country by ignoring a tremendous wave of illegal immigration; sell out our heavy manufacturing industries to third world countries through unfair taxation policies (forcing virtually all heavy industry, and a large percentage of light and medium manufacturing businesses as well to close in-country operations and move to some third world country to compete);remove citizens rights to private property;repeatedly and for years violate numerous of the basic rights enumerated in the Constitution without effective opposition (right to keep and bear arms, right to property, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, taxation)...etc, etc...etc...and the populace, even of a "community" like ARFCom (who are NOT the normal run of the mill sheeple found in all societies), are so self-indulged and weak willed that there are no large movements of the membership to hold their elected representatives feet to the fire...Secure the Borders; Enforce immigration laws on the books already; enforce sanctions on employers of illegal aliens; deport all illegal aliens found;enact Fair Tax legislation; dump the property seizures being imposed ala Kelo; remove the U.N. from U.S. territory and withdraw from membership in the most anti-American organization in the world;repeal anti-free speech legislation like McCain-Feingold; prosecute treason and sedition by elected representatives, journalists and educators; and on and on...this nation is already on the verge of total collapse from within, and only the most strident, angry, and very loud roar from the populace is going to begin to reach the tone-deaf representatives that are selling us out.  And there is barely a whimper......how sad....
  This was, and is, the greatest country in the world, and it is crumbling from within because the will and strength of its citizens is sapped and distracted and misdirected.  Most of the sheeple can tell you more about some stupid television show than they can about their own government's operation.  They know more about some celebrity couple's break-up, or hook-up than they do about any given battle in the Revolutionary War, or even of their own Constitution....the winner of any given sport game on any given Sunday is more important than whether some local town council just seized their neighbor's property so the town can make more tax money from the "new owners" than the ones it was seized from......  And the question about whether the time has come to begin reconstituting our militia (that in some small way MIGHT begin to get their attention) gets only five replies in an hour.  And half of those are completely against the idea, don't think the citizens are being "plundered" and are blissfully happy while the greatest nation on earth crumbles, not so slowly, into mediocrity, socialism and ineffectual has-been status.....     Rant Off   and I'm outta here....what a shame....    

Quoted: Quoted: Your expectation is unrealistic in a modern society and it is no wonder that you are disappointed by modern society if that is the sort of standard you are expecting to be upheld. "The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence." --John Adams Taxation is the power to destroy, if you eat all the wheat and leave none for seed you will soon starve, the state is too large to support with the amount of industry we now have in the U.S.   so instead encouraging industry by reducing taxes the state now increases taxation to support more force to collect more taxes. Survivors must repeat the failed history lesson !

So your answer is to go to a volunteer military force and volunteer law enforcement? Not very realistic expectation of you.
I agree that taxes are heavy, but where to cut? Everyone has their favorite causes they want funded; its always "the others guy" who should take the hit and have their pet cause de-funded.

OK...Rant ON.... Here we are in this year 2006, engaged in a World War (and it is, whether you want it to be or not); our news media, entertainment industry, and even at least a third of the Congress and Senate (feds) engage daily in treasonous rhetoric; not to mention the "educators" of our children; our elected representatives refuse to listen to the will of the people on almost any issue you care to name and instead carry out their plots to dissolve the sovereignty of this country by ignoring a tremendous wave of illegal immigration; sell out our heavy manufacturing industries to third world countries through unfair taxation policies (forcing virtually all heavy industry, and a large percentage of light and medium manufacturing businesses as well to close in-country operations and move to some third world country to compete);remove citizens rights to private property;repeatedly and for years violate numerous of the basic rights enumerated in the Constitution without effective opposition (right to keep and bear arms, right to property, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, taxation)...etc, etc...etc...and the populace, even of a "community" like ARFCom (who are NOT the normal run of the mill sheeple found in all societies), are so self-indulged and weak willed that there are no large movements of the membership to hold their elected representatives feet to the fire...Secure the Borders; Enforce immigration laws on the books already; enforce sanctions on employers of illegal aliens; deport all illegal aliens found;enact Fair Tax legislation; dump the property seizures being imposed ala Kelo; remove the U.N. from U.S. territory and withdraw from membership in the most anti-American organization in the world;repeal anti-free speech legislation like McCain-Feingold; prosecute treason and sedition by elected representatives, journalists and educators; and on and on...this nation is already on the verge of total collapse from within, and only the most strident, angry, and very loud roar from the populace is going to begin to reach the tone-deaf representatives that are selling us out. And there is barely a whimper......how sad.... This was, and is, the greatest country in the world, and it is crumbling from within because the will and strength of its citizens is sapped and distracted and misdirected. Most of the sheeple can tell you more about some stupid television show than they can about their own government's operation. They know more about some celebrity couple's break-up, or hook-up than they do about any given battle in the Revolutionary War, or even of their own Constitution....the winner of any given sport game on any given Sunday is more important than whether some local town council just seized their neighbor's property so the town can make more tax money from the "new owners" than the ones it was seized from...... And the question about whether the time has come to begin reconstituting our militia (that in some small way MIGHT begin to get their attention) gets only five replies in an hour. And half of those are completely against the idea, don't think the citizens are being "plundered" and are blissfully happy while the greatest nation on earth crumbles, not so slowly, into mediocrity, socialism and ineffectual has-been status..... Rant Off and I'm outta here....what a shame....

thats a lot of smilies for one post.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: America was founded without professional police and military (early 1600’s not 1791),  America was founded on the precepts self government, they formed their own systems of due process and justice, formed their own militias and elected their own peace officers as needed not as an excuse for police states and standing armies to plunder their neighbors with violence. When you have a tiny colony of a few hundred or even a few thousand citizens, it can pretty much self-police itself, rightly or wrongly. We are now a nation of 300 million people. You need  groups like a professional law enforcement and a standing professional  military force. Last time I checked, the US military and law enforcement bodies ARE formed from its own citizens, and no ones "plundering" anyone. Whatever you say. i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/trophyshot.jpg

What is that a picture of?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: America was founded without professional police and military (early 1600’s not 1791),  America was founded on the precepts self government, they formed their own systems of due process and justice, formed their own militias and elected their own peace officers as needed not as an excuse for police states and standing armies to plunder their neighbors with violence. When you have a tiny colony of a few hundred or even a few thousand citizens, it can pretty much self-police itself, rightly or wrongly. We are now a nation of 300 million people. You need  groups like a professional law enforcement and a standing professional  military force. Last time I checked, the US military and law enforcement bodies ARE formed from its own citizens, and no ones "plundering" anyone. Whatever you say. i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/trophyshot.jpg What is that a picture of?

FBI sniper posing in the ashes of Mt. Caramel center, Waco, TX.
The object circled in red is the corpse of one those murdered on April 19.

Quoted: So your answer is to go to a volunteer military force and volunteer law enforcement? Not very realistic expectation of you. I agree that taxes are heavy, but where to cut? Everyone has their favorite causes they want funded; its always "the others guy" who should take the hit and have their pet cause de-funded.

It's community based as in American common law, ten neighbors that agree make the township, ten townships make the precinct, ten precincts make the county, counties = state.

Each ten households elect/appoint the peace officer, that means you have ten officers per 100 people that is a sizable force backed up with each head of house-hold available to be deputized and under the super-vision of the Peace Officer, the militia is in the same way grown from the bottom up, entire families even with disabilities contribute to the support of their own defense and security & justice system.

From Precinct level all the way up through county level provide part time compensated officers for advanced training and management of the armories.

AirForce and Navy is funded through excise tax & import export for international commerce protection.

The founders/ anti-federalists already laid the foundation in law from the history of the world, there is a natural balance to nature and to governments as well, if the tree out-grows it roots system it will fall over dead, if government is too large it will also topple civilization.

That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of The United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms... — Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, at 86-87 (Pierce & Hale, eds., Boston, 1850).

.

Quoted: I'm already in the State Organized Militia, Th Alabama State Defense Force. aka, The Alabama State Guard. We basically are the back up to the State's National Guard. It's an interesting concept and I still enjoy it. slash

State guards may seem like a good idea but they are not effective against criminal government or major catastrophe, the bottom up (grass roots) organization are completely self sufficient and are not decapitated like pyramid systems.

An instance within the memory of some of this house will show us how our militia may be destroyed. Forty years ago, when the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliment was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that is was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually, by totally disusing and neglecting the militia. -- George Mason at the Virginia Ratification Convention, June 14, 1788

Quoted: Texas has a State Guard.  They are under the command of the Governor and CANNOT be federalized.  As such, they can never be called to service in any other state and are for state emergencies only.  They drill but without pay, only being compensated in times when the governor calls them to duty.

In California it's called the California State Military Reserve, though I know next to nothing about the organization.  If I'm correct it is what used to be the California State Guard, which was organized in the 1940s after the California National Guard was federalized.

This would be, obviously, and Organized Militia just as the TX State Guard would.

EDIT: Seems to me from my reading that the CS SMR is treated more like the Red Cross than as an actual state defense force.

Quoted: State guards may seem like a good idea but they are not effective against criminal government or major catastrophe, the bottom up (grass roots) organization are completely self sufficient and are not decapitated like pyramid systems.

They have absolutely no power either.  They are essentially at or below the level of Red Cross when a disaster hits, no joke.

Quoted: Quoted: State guards may seem like a good idea but they are not effective against criminal government or major catastrophe, the bottom up (grass roots) organization are completely self sufficient and are not decapitated like pyramid systems. They have absolutely no power either.  They are essentially at or below the level of Red Cross when a disaster hits, no joke.

Not true, militia truck drivers armed with AK's delivered emergency supplies to Katrina victims when the commercial  drivers refused to go into chaotic areas, hams with hf radios set up communications, supplies where delivered via boat, people that did not flea the storm protected their own homes a well as their neighbors homes and pets.

Locals are better suited to taking care of themselves than any out-side relief agency.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: State guards may seem like a good idea but they are not effective against criminal government or major catastrophe, the bottom up (grass roots) organization are completely self sufficient and are not decapitated like pyramid systems. They have absolutely no power either.  They are essentially at or below the level of Red Cross when a disaster hits, no joke. Not true, militia truck drivers armed with AK's delivered emergency supplies to Katrina victims when the commercial  drivers refused to go into chaotic areas, hams with hf radios set up communications, supplies where delivered via boat, people that did not flea the storm protected their own homes a well as their neighbors homes and pets. Locals are better suited to taking care of themselves than any out-side relief agency.

Members of a state-sanctioned group?? Sounds like you're talking about individuals with guns.  Believe me I know I was in the TXSG when Katrina hit and we took orders from Red Cross.

Quoted: Members of a state-sanctioned group?? Sounds like you're talking about individuals with guns.  Believe me I know I was in the TXSG when Katrina hit and we took orders from Red Cross.

Incidentally, were you guys armed?

Quoted: Members of a state-sanctioned group?? Sounds like you're talking about individuals with guns.  Believe me I know I was in the TXSG when Katrina hit and we took orders from Red Cross.

The whole idea is to eliminate the inefficient fictional entity commonly called the state, self government means just that, people take care of their own problems, security, justice etc.   The State is the problem because it is like the hireling that has no interest in making sure every individual is protected and cared for besides the fact the State requires excessive taxation to fund all those services, self gov takes out the middle man, no collection agencies are required and all the corruption and theft that goes along with a state agency like that.

Away with the whims of governmental administrators, their socialized projects, their centralization, their tariffs, their government schools, their state religions, their free credit, their bank monopolies, their regulations, their restrictions, their equalization by taxation, and their pious moralizations! And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works.

Quoted: Locals are better suited to taking care of themselves than any out-side relief agency.

+ a billion.

After seeing that Superdome disaster, I hope some of the sheep understand exactly what peril exists when you rely on a .gov planned evacuation.

Quoted: Quoted: Locals are better suited to taking care of themselves than any out-side relief agency. + a billion. After seeing that Superdome disaster, I hope some of the sheep understand exactly what peril exists when you rely on a .gov planned evacuation.

Probably not.  Somehow I see the very same thing happen again:

Make no preparations, or even a basic plan.
When told to leave, they will stay.
They will whine and cry for big brother to help them.
They will allow themselves to be herded like the sheep they are.
Primal instincts will override all higher brain functions.
Anarchy will commence.
When order is restored, they will blame the govenment.
Then they will ask for more help from the very same govenment.
Repeat.

Quoted: IMHO the concept of the state militias in any fighting force sense is long dead. The first inkling that an offense force was taking arms inside the USA against the US gov it would be destroyed so quickly they would never know what hit them. the militia is a great concept and as a weapon of last resort after the standing military has been defeated is a good resource. today we have the active military, the reserves,national guard, and state defense forces, along with local LE.

The professor is not saying the militia takes up arms against the US. The militia SUPPORTS the active military. The militia is under the control of each of the governors of the states. He has said that the southern border could be sealed off in quick if 50 governors would call up the militia. Each state sends 1000 men. Rotate in and out in one month tours on the southern border. That would involve 50,000 armed milita securing the border every month. In the coloniel militia there was a chain of command all the way back to the governor of the state. Like he states it would be effective and cheap way of closing that southern border off.

Quoted: Probably not.  Somehow I see the very same thing happen again: Make no preparations, or even a basic plan. When told to leave, they will stay. They will whine and cry for big brother to help them. They will allow themselves to be herded like the sheep they are. Primal instincts will override all higher brain functions. Anarchy will commence. When order is restored, they will blame the govenment. Then they will ask for more help from the very same govenment. Repeat.

Me too. And here in Seattle. Either Mt Raineer or Earthquake. And the sheep will shit.

And Starbucks will be closed!

Quoted: OK...Rant ON....      Here we are in this year 2006, engaged in a World War (and it is, whether you want it to be or not); our news media, entertainment industry, and even at least a third of the Congress and Senate (feds) engage daily in treasonous rhetoric; not to mention the "educators" of our children; our elected representatives refuse to listen to the will of the people on almost any issue you care to name and instead carry out their plots to dissolve the sovereignty of this country by ignoring a tremendous wave of illegal immigration; sell out our heavy manufacturing industries to third world countries through unfair taxation policies (forcing virtually all heavy industry, and a large percentage of light and medium manufacturing businesses as well to close in-country operations and move to some third world country to compete);remove citizens rights to private property;repeatedly and for years violate numerous of the basic rights enumerated in the Constitution without effective opposition (right to keep and bear arms, right to property, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, taxation)...etc, etc...etc...and the populace, even of a "community" like ARFCom (who are NOT the normal run of the mill sheeple found in all societies), are so self-indulged and weak willed that there are no large movements of the membership to hold their elected representatives feet to the fire...Secure the Borders; Enforce immigration laws on the books already; enforce sanctions on employers of illegal aliens; deport all illegal aliens found;enact Fair Tax legislation; dump the property seizures being imposed ala Kelo; remove the U.N. from U.S. territory and withdraw from membership in the most anti-American organization in the world;repeal anti-free speech legislation like McCain-Feingold; prosecute treason and sedition by elected representatives, journalists and educators; and on and on...this nation is already on the verge of total collapse from within, and only the most strident, angry, and very loud roar from the populace is going to begin to reach the tone-deaf representatives that are selling us out.  And there is barely a whimper......how sad....   This was, and is, the greatest country in the world, and it is crumbling from within because the will and strength of its citizens is sapped and distracted and misdirected.  Most of the sheeple can tell you more about some stupid television show than they can about their own government's operation.  They know more about some celebrity couple's break-up, or hook-up than they do about any given battle in the Revolutionary War, or even of their own Constitution....the winner of any given sport game on any given Sunday is more important than whether some local town council just seized their neighbor's property so the town can make more tax money from the "new owners" than the ones it was seized from......  And the question about whether the time has come to begin reconstituting our militia (that in some small way MIGHT begin to get their attention) gets only five replies in an hour.  And half of those are completely against the idea, don't think the citizens are being "plundered" and are blissfully happy while the greatest nation on earth crumbles, not so slowly, into mediocrity, socialism and ineffectual has-been status.....     Rant Off   and I'm outta here....what a shame....

Well said.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Locals are better suited to taking care of themselves than any out-side relief agency. + a billion. After seeing that Superdome disaster, I hope some of the sheep understand exactly what peril exists when you rely on a .gov planned evacuation. Probably not.  Somehow I see the very same thing happen again: Make no preparations, or even a basic plan. When told to leave, they will stay. They will whine and cry for big brother to help them. They will allow themselves to be herded like the sheep they are. Primal instincts will override all higher brain functions. Anarchy will commence. When order is restored, they will blame the govenment. Then they will ask for more help from the very same govenment. Repeat.

I disagree, the people that ignored gov orders and just started walking escaped and did just fine, if the gov is not seen as the super hero saviour people are forced to rely on them-selves.

The gov works very hard at dividing the people in as many ways as they can, culture, class, economic, religion, race, etc. once the evil conspiratorial gov is taken out of the way the people actually excell and get along just fine especially in an emergency, floods, ice storms, eary quakes are common in the NW and during the emergency people generally do not panic and are quite receptive to competent leadership, they pitch in and work very hard when directed what to do because it is in their own best interest and not some strange interloper gov bureaucrat.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: America was founded without professional police and military (early 1600’s not 1791),  America was founded on the precepts self government, they formed their own systems of due process and justice, formed their own militias and elected their own peace officers as needed not as an excuse for police states and standing armies to plunder their neighbors with violence. When you have a tiny colony of a few hundred or even a few thousand citizens, it can pretty much self-police itself, rightly or wrongly. We are now a nation of 300 million people. You need  groups like a professional law enforcement and a standing professional  military force. Last time I checked, the US military and law enforcement bodies ARE formed from its own citizens, and no ones "plundering" anyone. Whatever you say. i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/trophyshot.jpg

More likely it the pic of some  General Discussion member at the dump shooting rats.

Quoted: Whatever you say. i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/trophyshot.jpg More likely it the pic of some  General Discussion member at the dump shooting rats.

Nope, real photo

Quoted: OK...Rant ON....      Here we are in this year 2006, engaged in a World War (and it is, whether you want it to be or not); our news media, entertainment industry, and even at least a third of the Congress and Senate (feds) engage daily in treasonous rhetoric; not to mention the "educators" of our children; our elected representatives refuse to listen to the will of the people on almost any issue you care to name and instead carry out their plots to dissolve the sovereignty of this country by ignoring a tremendous wave of illegal immigration; sell out our heavy manufacturing industries to third world countries through unfair taxation policies (forcing virtually all heavy industry, and a large percentage of light and medium manufacturing businesses as well to close in-country operations and move to some third world country to compete);remove citizens rights to private property;repeatedly and for years violate numerous of the basic rights enumerated in the Constitution without effective opposition (right to keep and bear arms, right to property, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, taxation)...etc, etc...etc...and the populace, even of a "community" like ARFCom (who are NOT the normal run of the mill sheeple found in all societies), are so self-indulged and weak willed that there are no large movements of the membership to hold their elected representatives feet to the fire...Secure the Borders; Enforce immigration laws on the books already; enforce sanctions on employers of illegal aliens; deport all illegal aliens found;enact Fair Tax legislation; dump the property seizures being imposed ala Kelo; remove the U.N. from U.S. territory and withdraw from membership in the most anti-American organization in the world;repeal anti-free speech legislation like McCain-Feingold; prosecute treason and sedition by elected representatives, journalists and educators; and on and on...this nation is already on the verge of total collapse from within, and only the most strident, angry, and very loud roar from the populace is going to begin to reach the tone-deaf representatives that are selling us out.  And there is barely a whimper......how sad....   This was, and is, the greatest country in the world, and it is crumbling from within because the will and strength of its citizens is sapped and distracted and misdirected.  Most of the sheeple can tell you more about some stupid television show than they can about their own government's operation.  They know more about some celebrity couple's break-up, or hook-up than they do about any given battle in the Revolutionary War, or even of their own Constitution....the winner of any given sport game on any given Sunday is more important than whether some local town council just seized their neighbor's property so the town can make more tax money from the "new owners" than the ones it was seized from......  And the question about whether the time has come to begin reconstituting our militia (that in some small way MIGHT begin to get their attention) gets only five replies in an hour.  And half of those are completely against the idea, don't think the citizens are being "plundered" and are blissfully happy while the greatest nation on earth crumbles, not so slowly, into mediocrity, socialism and ineffectual has-been status.....     Rant Off   and I'm outta here....what a shame....

Good rant and it's all unfortunately true.

Nope, real photo murderoususjudges.com/images/waco2.jpg

Dude, Is that guy in the tank actually WAVING the flag?  Somehow I'm not overwhelmed with a sense of patriotism...

Quoted: Nope, real photo www.causes-of-terrorism.net/images/ram4T.jpg murderoususjudges.com/images/waco2.jpg Dude, Is that guy in the tank actually WAVING the flag?  Somehow I'm not overwhelmed with a sense of patriotism...

That is the result of a federal government who has to much power which it usurped from the states.

Quoted: Quoted: Whatever you say. i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/trophyshot.jpg More likely it the pic of some  General Discussion member at the dump shooting rats. Nope, real photo www.causes-of-terrorism.net/images/ram4T.jpg murderoususjudges.com/images/waco2.jpg

I have my doubts.  Waco photos are about the most photo-shopped and misrepresented subject matter on the net.

Really sucks when your side resorts to such propaganda.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: America was founded without professional police and military (early 1600’s not 1791),  America was founded on the precepts self government, they formed their own systems of due process and justice, formed their own militias and elected their own peace officers as needed not as an excuse for police states and standing armies to plunder their neighbors with violence. When you have a tiny colony of a few hundred or even a few thousand citizens, it can pretty much self-police itself, rightly or wrongly. We are now a nation of 300 million people. You need  groups like a professional law enforcement and a standing professional  military force. Last time I checked, the US military and law enforcement bodies ARE formed from its own citizens, and no ones "plundering" anyone. Whatever you say. i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/trophyshot.jpg More likely it the pic of some  General Discussion member at the dump shooting rats.

I'd really like to know what exactly is in the picture, either way.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: America was founded without professional police and military (early 1600’s not 1791),  America was founded on the precepts self government, they formed their own systems of due process and justice, formed their own militias and elected their own peace officers as needed not as an excuse for police states and standing armies to plunder their neighbors with violence. When you have a tiny colony of a few hundred or even a few thousand citizens, it can pretty much self-police itself, rightly or wrongly. We are now a nation of 300 million people. You need  groups like a professional law enforcement and a standing professional  military force. Last time I checked, the US military and law enforcement bodies ARE formed from its own citizens, and no ones "plundering" anyone. Whatever you say. i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/trophyshot.jpg More likely it the pic of some  General Discussion member at the dump shooting rats. I'd really like to know what exactly is in the picture, either way.

FBI sniper posing in the ashes of the Mount Caramel church.
Circled in red is the body of a dead Branch Davidian.
I have several other of the so-called "FBI trophy pics"

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: America was founded without professional police and military (early 1600’s not 1791),  America was founded on the precepts self government, they formed their own systems of due process and justice, formed their own militias and elected their own peace officers as needed not as an excuse for police states and standing armies to plunder their neighbors with violence. When you have a tiny colony of a few hundred or even a few thousand citizens, it can pretty much self-police itself, rightly or wrongly. We are now a nation of 300 million people. You need  groups like a professional law enforcement and a standing professional  military force. Last time I checked, the US military and law enforcement bodies ARE formed from its own citizens, and no ones "plundering" anyone. Whatever you say. i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/trophyshot.jpg More likely it the pic of some  General Discussion member at the dump shooting rats. I'd really like to know what exactly is in the picture, either way. FBI sniper posing in the ashes of the Mount Caramel church. Circled in red is the body of a dead Branch Davidian. I have several other of the so-called "FBI trophy pics"

Then explain three things to me.

Why is this "FBI sniper" not in uniform? Holding what certainly does not look like an issue weapon?
Why is there a photoshopped "mask" on him?
Why is the "body" that supposedly burned to death IN a building, on TOP of the burn pile and blurred when other items in the pic are not??

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: America was founded without professional police and military (early 1600’s not 1791),  America was founded on the precepts self government, they formed their own systems of due process and justice, formed their own militias and elected their own peace officers as needed not as an excuse for police states and standing armies to plunder their neighbors with violence. When you have a tiny colony of a few hundred or even a few thousand citizens, it can pretty much self-police itself, rightly or wrongly. We are now a nation of 300 million people. You need  groups like a professional law enforcement and a standing professional  military force. Last time I checked, the US military and law enforcement bodies ARE formed from its own citizens, and no ones "plundering" anyone. Whatever you say. i10.photobucket.com/albums/a103/thedoctors308/trophyshot.jpg More likely it the pic of some  General Discussion member at the dump shooting rats. I'd really like to know what exactly is in the picture, either way. FBI sniper posing in the ashes of the Mount Caramel church. Circled in red is the body of a dead Branch Davidian. I have several other of the so-called "FBI trophy pics" Then explain three things to me. Why is this "FBI sniper" not in uniform? Holding what certainly does not look like an issue weapon? Why is there a photoshopped "mask" on him? Why is the "body" that supposedly burned to death IN a building, on TOP of the burn pile and blurred when other items in the pic are not??

Good question on the uniform.  The rifle looks like a Remington 700, which would be about right.  Also, the photo looks aged, which would be about right, too.  Good questions on the mask and the stuff being blurred (unless it's somebody's attempt at censorship).  

that is the corpse in the background of the sniper pics




Here, the ATF raises its colors over the ruins of Mt. Caramel - I don't have the video that shows them running their flag up while the flames consume the church, but it is out there, in several documentaries.

You have yet to prove the photos have a thing to do with Waco.  I seriously doubt you ever will be able to.  Several of them I strongly suspect are Iraq or the previously mentioned dump shooters. Especially the guy with the unscoped M-14.

As I stated before.  Waco photos on the net are about as documentable as UFO photos.  That never stopped the conspiracy guys though.

Bottom line.  Waco is a perfect example of when nutcases meet dumbasses. Nothing more.  

Quoted: You have yet to prove the photos have a thing to do with Waco.  I seriously doubt you ever will be able to.  Several of them I strongly suspect are Iraq or the previously mentioned dump shooters. Especially the guy with the unscoped M-14. As I stated before.  Waco photos on the net are about as documentable as UFO photos.  That never stopped the conspiracy guys though. Bottom line.  Waco is a perfect example of when nutcases meet dumbasses. Nothing more.

I have met guys like you before.
Why don't you tell me about prussian blue?

ETA: If they are "dump shooters" why not explain the scorched go karts?
You know...the go karts at the back of the Compound?
Why was so much critical evidence lost, or destroyed?
Was it ever proven that the B-D was involved in child abuse (something the ATF has no jurisdiction in) or the mfging of illegal weapons?
Info for those who are interested

Quoted: You have yet to prove the photos have a thing to do with Waco.  I seriously doubt you ever will be able to.  Several of them I strongly suspect are Iraq or the previously mentioned dump shooters. Especially the guy with the unscoped M-14. As I stated before.  Waco photos on the net are about as documentable as UFO photos.  That never stopped the conspiracy guys though. Bottom line.  Waco is a perfect example of when nutcases meet dumbasses. Nothing more.

If the pics were real, how could it be proven ?  The whole thing leaves me undecided.  The pictures do look really bad and they look real to me (I've seen plenty of war pics and the like before), but there's no way to prove that they're associated with Waco and/or aren't just one hell of a good Photoshop job.  

Quoted: Quoted: You have yet to prove the photos have a thing to do with Waco.  I seriously doubt you ever will be able to.  Several of them I strongly suspect are Iraq or the previously mentioned dump shooters. Especially the guy with the unscoped M-14. As I stated before.  Waco photos on the net are about as documentable as UFO photos.  That never stopped the conspiracy guys though. Bottom line.  Waco is a perfect example of when nutcases meet dumbasses. Nothing more.   I have met guys like you before. Why don't you tell me about prussian blue? ETA: If they are "dump shooters" why not explain the scorched go karts? You know...the go karts at the back of the Compound? Why was so much critical evidence lost, or destroyed? Was it ever proven that the B-D was involved in child abuse (something the ATF has no jurisdiction in) or the mfging of illegal weapons? Info for those who are interested

I have no idea what "Prussian Blue" is.  I also don't see anything that looks like a go cart, and you STILL have not answered my very reasonable questions.

Typical conspiracy BS. Instead of answering cogent questions concerning the authenticity of your photos you just throw more crap out.

I was a student at Baylor during Waco.  I watched the whole deal on a live feed in my dorm commons area with a great many others. (Mt Carmel, not Caramel BTW)  I know more of what really happened that day than you ever will, and 99% of the stuff thrown around about the event today is made up bull.