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Posted: 8/11/2011 7:22:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2011 4:54:54 AM EDT by hightech_redneck]
Edited to openly and maturely discuss.....NO bashing plz.!!!!!!!

I am reading this as well as the Koran...just because...I have a question about Muhammad and the fondling of women on the rag...simple question.......WTF???

Here is just one of MANY quotes........
Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299:

Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad:

(on the authority of his father) 'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could."

Another......

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 300:

Narrated Maimuna:

When ever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle any of his wives during the periods (menses), he used to ask her to wear an Izar.


Seriously......why?????

Link Posted: 8/11/2011 7:26:34 PM EDT
Never question the practices of 8th century moon worshiping goat herders.
Link Posted: 8/11/2011 7:33:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wganz:
Never question the practices of 8th century moon worshiping goat herders.


Lol.....holy shit    that was good...Seriously, I have a Russian friend trying to get me to understand this crap...lifestyle...I like to learn about other cultures so I am game....but that was jacked up reading that stuff!!
Link Posted: 8/11/2011 8:00:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wganz:
Never question the practices of 8th century moon worshiping goat herders.


Didn't you read what he wrote already?

/Clearly the thread is over. Goodnight and good luck.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 4:53:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2011 4:55:48 AM EDT by hightech_redneck]
Originally Posted By Gacksnabbit:
Originally Posted By wganz:
Never question the practices of 8th century moon worshiping goat herders.


Didn't you read what he wrote already?

/Clearly the thread is over. Goodnight and good luck.


I am just looking to see if anyone has ever actually looked into Islam on here..  You know the old saying "know your *******"   right?  
 Yeah, goat herder, who is willing to kill you over his faith. To us it's crazy, to them they are willing to die over it. They believe with every ounce of their soul they are right, just like Christians believe they are right....
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 5:20:02 AM EDT
What's an izar?  Seriously I have been in various muslim countries more then I have been in the USA in the last five years and have no idea what that is.

hightech_redneck,

Yeah I am Christian and I believe from the bottom of my heart that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are real.  What I do not do, is try to kill people who don't beleave that.  It has been my expereince that a lot of muslims have a problem with refraining from doing that.  All to many of them have access to explosives.  Makes life interesting round these parts.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 5:29:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2011 5:29:47 AM EDT by RRD3]





Originally Posted By hightech_redneck:





Originally Posted By Gacksnabbit:




Originally Posted By wganz:


Never question the practices of 8th century moon worshiping goat herders.






Didn't you read what he wrote already?





/Clearly the thread is over. Goodnight and good luck.






I am just looking to see if anyone has ever actually looked into Islam on here..  You know the old saying "know your *******"   right?  


 Yeah, goat herder, who is willing to kill you over his faith. To us it's crazy, to them they are willing to die over it. They believe with every ounce of their soul they are right, just like Christians believe they are right....



Your wording is a little off.





They will kill you because YOU do not believe in their faith. That being said they can not be reasoned with and there's nothing more I need to know.
 
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 5:34:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Aikibiker:
What's an izar?  Seriously I have been in various muslim countries more then I have been in the USA in the last five years and have no idea what that is.

hightech_redneck,

Yeah I am Christian and I believe from the bottom of my heart that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are real.  What I do not do, is try to kill people who don't beleave that.  It has been my expereince that a lot of muslims have a problem with refraining from doing that.  All to many of them have access to explosives.  Makes life interesting round these parts.


From what google say's a IZAR is some type of dress/Muslim garb.......It's weird talking to a Russian Muslim, he to me is like a normal Christian. Where Christianity has it's oddities {snake handlers, faith healers, extremest}
  Seems that the Russian {non mid-east}  Muslim is what we consider "normal" He say's they are old school extremist {comparing to if we Christian's lived by the old Testament}  He was pointing out the part of  "killing the infidel"  Saying it does NOT say go out and kill them, but to DEFEND your belief if Islam life is threatened, and that PEACE is to be sought after, it is better to fight with your tongue than with a sword....but the extremist mis interpret it as go out and kill everyone.....I just find all this interesting......an old quote "knowledge is power"  
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 5:34:55 AM EDT
Sounds like Mo was a pussy and too afraid to earn his red badge of courage.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 7:42:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2011 7:43:04 AM EDT by ODA_564]


Originally Posted By Aikibiker:

What's an izar? Seriously I have been in various muslim countries more then I have been in the USA in the last five years and have no idea what that is.



hightech_redneck,



Yeah I am Christian and I believe from the bottom of my heart that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are real. What I do not do, is try to kill people who don't believe that. It has been my experience that a lot of Muslims have a problem with refraining from doing that. All to many of them have access to explosives. Makes life interesting round these parts.


The izar is the ritual loincloth / diaper worn by male pilgrims during the haj. In this case it would be basically a loin-cloth variant of the old belt used to secure sanitary pads pre-Kotex / Tampax.



What the "true" hadith illustrate (to me, as a non-Muslim) is the capricious and convenient way "Allah" revealed new 'eternal truths' to Mohammad whenever Mohammad needed them.



This is also true in the Koran. When Mohammad wanted more than the Allah-approved and allotted four wives, 'Allah' just suddenly lets him know that since he (Mo) is 'the Messenger', that rule doesn't apply to him and he can have 11 (or maybe 13, hard to tell). When he wants the six or seven-year old child Aisha, suddenly its not only approved by 'Allah' for him, but he starts preaching it is the rule to get your daughters married off before they menstruate. And upright perfect man that the 'prophet' is, he doesn't boff Aisha until she's nine or maybe 10 (even in contemporary European arranged dynastic / political alliance child-marriages, that was too young).



When this sort of shit happens today in cults the people wonder WTF. I guess a 'major religion' "deserves" tolerance and respect once it is about 1300 years old and has "billions" of adherents (most of whom can't read it's "holy book" and just know what it's 'not priests' say it says).



Otherwise it would be a militant, intolerant, supremacist death cult with a 'once in, never out' policy.



But its a 'major religion' focused on 'peace'.



But why don't we accord Warren Jeffs the same respect and tolerance for his diversity? Or the Branch Davidians? Or Heavens Gate? Or the death cult of Kali? Or the Nordic / Teutonic /Aryan-race-memory neo-paganism of the late-and-unlamented Reichsführer SS?



How come Scientology is treated as seriously as Islam? Are L. Ron Hubbard and Mohammad equally astute and inspired 'prophets'?
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 7:48:27 AM EDT
'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could"




A veritable statue with regards to his pedophiling self-control, I tell you.  



Overstated propaganda is overstated.

Link Posted: 8/12/2011 7:53:23 AM EDT



Originally Posted By wganz:


Never question the practices of 8th century moon worshiping goat herders.


Sigline right there, hell that would make a great bumpersticker



 
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 7:56:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2011 7:59:41 AM EDT by ODA_564]
And how is the made-up "Nordic / Teutonic /Aryan-race-memory neo-paganism of the late-and-unlamented Reichsführer SS" which survives as the bullshit "Aryan Identity" churches less deserving of religous tolerance than the made modern Druidic Wicca?



They are both made-up nonsense. Himmler claimed all that was in "race memory" and modern Druids claim they have kept the Celtic 'old religion' alive in secret since the pre-Roman period but have no evidence of it?



Scientology is obviously made up by L. Ron Hubbard (who spent his last years on the lam from the Feds) but it is powerful as hell. Despite having there being ample evidence of their crimes, including the infiltration of the IRS and FBI, they're still a 'church" (here in the US, not other places) and haven't ever been Waco'd (they have enough guns and have committed enough crimes to warrant it).



But the Branch Davidians had to be burnt out because they were a wacky cult with guns? If John Travolta and Tome Cruise were BDs, would Koresh still be alive?



But no one should think that I am making any comparison between wacky cults with bizarre leaders and any "major religion" - especially any that our mighty Government, including the former President and current Anointed One, have declared is a "religion of peace" (regardless of any evidence in it's holy book and the collected anecdotes of the life of it's founder to the contrary). After, that would be disrespectful.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 7:58:55 AM EDT
Can't comment I don't know what an Izar is
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 8:04:42 AM EDT
He didn't want blood on his hands that didn't come from slaughtering infidels.
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 8:08:47 AM EDT
So, is Islam REALLY considered a religion if they don't have a "Priest" so to speak as Christians do? They have Mosques, yet ANYONE with knowledge of their Koran can lead prayer, and be an influential leader...
 OR is it simply a way of life? Islam teaches to wish for your brother as you do for yourself, yet their tribes fight amongst each other....so within the Mid-east, does each tribe worship different? Interpret the Koran different? They study the same book...what separates the "crazy" ones over the "normal" ones..like this Russian guy I am talking with?
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 8:16:09 AM EDT



Originally Posted By hightech_redneck:


So, is Islam REALLY considered a religion if they don't have a "Priest" so to speak as Christians do? They have Mosques, yet ANYONE with knowledge of their Koran can lead prayer, and be an influential leader...

 OR is it simply a way of life? Islam teaches to wish for your brother as you do for yourself, yet their tribes fight amongst each other....so within the Mid-east, does each tribe worship different? Interpret the Koran different? They study the same book...what separates the "crazy" ones over the "normal" ones..like this Russian guy I am talking with?


Christians don't really need a priest either.

 
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 8:58:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2011 9:03:49 AM EDT by ODA_564]




Originally Posted By hightech_redneck:

So, is Islam REALLY considered a religion if they don't have a "Priest" so to speak as Christians do? They have Mosques, yet ANYONE with knowledge of their Koran can lead prayer, and be an influential leader...

OR is it simply a way of life? Islam teaches to wish for your brother as you do for yourself, yet their tribes fight amongst each other....so within the Mid-east, does each tribe worship different? Interpret the Koran different? They study the same book...what separates the "crazy" ones over the "normal" ones..like this Russian guy I am talking with?


I think that in modern times the business of Islam not having "priests" is pretty much sophistry.



Imams, mullahs and ayatollahs are all pretty much professional religious leaders.



Sunnis may claim that an imam is just a prayer leader and that anyone can be the imam, but the reality is that unless you start your own mosque and install yourself, a Sunni imam is going to be a 'religious scholar' and probably a graduate of one of the Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence (madhhab) or theology (aqidah) like Al Anwar in Cario. Now I realize that is somehow subtly different than going to seminary... And yes, they don't get formally "ordained" even though they have to be examined by other imams and religious scholars in order to graduate... but, yeah, they are pretty much a trained preacher of Islam.



In Shi'a, imams are chosen by 'Allah' (the 12 Imams and the 'hidden Imam' or 13th Imam) and were (or for the 'hidden' Imam, are) the heirs of Mohammad. They have mullahs. Mullah is an old Arabic term (mawlâ;) that refers to a religious leader. But that's not a priest. It's a religious leader. See the difference? No?



Mullah actually means 'vicar' (or 'master') and to be a mullah one has to be a recognized Islamic scholar, which means formal study of the Koran and the Hadith (Shi'a fashion) in a hawzas (seminary). Sort of like being, I don't know, clergy? Shi'a Muslims call mullahs "clergy". But they aren't "priests". Because they say so. See the difference? No?



In "Twelver" Shi'a Islam, mullahs are low-level clergy. The upper level are called ayatollahs - they have to do more studies in the hawzas. Below them are Hujjat al-Islam ("authority on Islam"). An at the tippy-top, there's Grand Ayatollahs. But even though Shi'a Islam has ranks of clerics, that's not like priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals. See the difference? No?
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 11:58:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ODA_564:

Originally Posted By hightech_redneck:
So, is Islam REALLY considered a religion if they don't have a "Priest" so to speak as Christians do? They have Mosques, yet ANYONE with knowledge of their Koran can lead prayer, and be an influential leader...
OR is it simply a way of life? Islam teaches to wish for your brother as you do for yourself, yet their tribes fight amongst each other....so within the Mid-east, does each tribe worship different? Interpret the Koran different? They study the same book...what separates the "crazy" ones over the "normal" ones..like this Russian guy I am talking with?

I think that in modern times the business of Islam not having "priests" is pretty much sophistry.

Imams, mullahs and ayatollahs are all pretty much professional religious leaders.

Sunnis may claim that an imam is just a prayer leader and that anyone can be the imam, but the reality is that unless you start your own mosque and install yourself, a Sunni imam is going to be a 'religious scholar' and probably a graduate of one of the Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence (madhhab) or theology (aqidah) like Al Anwar in Cario. Now I realize that is somehow subtly different than going to seminary... And yes, they don't get formally "ordained" even though they have to be examined by other imams and religious scholars in order to graduate... but, yeah, they are pretty much a trained preacher of Islam.

In Shi'a, imams are chosen by 'Allah' (the 12 Imams and the 'hidden Imam' or 13th Imam) and were (or for the 'hidden' Imam, are) the heirs of Mohammad. They have mullahs. Mullah is an old Arabic term (mawlâ;) that refers to a religious leader. But that's not a priest. It's a religious leader. See the difference? No?

Mullah actually means 'vicar' (or 'master') and to be a mullah one has to be a recognized Islamic scholar, which means formal study of the Koran and the Hadith (Shi'a fashion) in a hawzas (seminary). Sort of like being, I don't know, clergy? Shi'a Muslims call mullahs "clergy". But they aren't "priests". Because they say so. See the difference? No?

In "Twelver" Shi'a Islam, mullahs are low-level clergy. The upper level are called ayatollahs - they have to do more studies in the hawzas. Below them are Hujjat al-Islam ("authority on Islam"). An at the tippy-top, there's Grand Ayatollahs. But even though Shi'a Islam has ranks of clerics, that's not like priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals. See the difference? No?







      Damn..that was confusing, but makes since..lol .....So there is ORDER and these "leaders" COULD tell these sum bitches to stop their silly shit technically....?
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 12:01:39 PM EDT



Originally Posted By wganz:


Never question the practices of 8th century moon worshiping goat herders.


You're being kind.

 
Link Posted: 8/12/2011 12:42:00 PM EDT




Originally Posted By hightech_redneck:



Originally Posted By ODA_564:





Originally Posted By hightech_redneck:

So, is Islam REALLY considered a religion if they don't have a "Priest" so to speak as Christians do? They have Mosques, yet ANYONE with knowledge of their Koran can lead prayer, and be an influential leader...

OR is it simply a way of life? Islam teaches to wish for your brother as you do for yourself, yet their tribes fight amongst each other....so within the Mid-east, does each tribe worship different? Interpret the Koran different? They study the same book...what separates the "crazy" ones over the "normal" ones..like this Russian guy I am talking with?


I think that in modern times the business of Islam not having "priests" is pretty much sophistry.



Imams, mullahs and ayatollahs are all pretty much professional religious leaders.



Sunnis may claim that an imam is just a prayer leader and that anyone can be the imam, but the reality is that unless you start your own mosque and install yourself, a Sunni imam is going to be a 'religious scholar' and probably a graduate of one of the Sunni schools of Islamic jurisprudence (madhhab) or theology (aqidah) like Al Anwar in Cario. Now I realize that is somehow subtly different than going to seminary... And yes, they don't get formally "ordained" even though they have to be examined by other imams and religious scholars in order to graduate... but, yeah, they are pretty much a trained preacher of Islam.



In Shi'a, imams are chosen by 'Allah' (the 12 Imams and the 'hidden Imam' or 13th Imam) and were (or for the 'hidden' Imam, are) the heirs of Mohammad. They have mullahs. Mullah is an old Arabic term (mawlâ;) that refers to a religious leader. But that's not a priest. It's a religious leader. See the difference? No?



Mullah actually means 'vicar' (or 'master') and to be a mullah one has to be a recognized Islamic scholar, which means formal study of the Koran and the Hadith (Shi'a fashion) in a hawzas (seminary). Sort of like being, I don't know, clergy? Shi'a Muslims call mullahs "clergy". But they aren't "priests". Because they say so. See the difference? No?



In "Twelver" Shi'a Islam, mullahs are low-level clergy. The upper level are called ayatollahs - they have to do more studies in the hawzas. Below them are Hujjat al-Islam ("authority on Islam"). An at the tippy-top, there's Grand Ayatollahs. But even though Shi'a Islam has ranks of clerics, that's not like priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals. See the difference? No?




Damn..that was confusing, but makes since..lol .....So there is ORDER and these "leaders" COULD tell these sum bitches to stop their silly shit technically....?




Unfortunately what you call "silly shit" is directed in the Koran.  While various Shi'a and Sunni "religious leaders" may disagree on tactics, who's in charge and who gets to do what to whom before and after the achievement of their divinely ordained victory, they ain't gonna tell anyone to stop.



We can want to believe that our perception of the world is the right one, but that doesn't mean other people have to adopt our opinion of their motivations for their actions.



In other words, just because a sage and wise talking head on TV says that a religion is a "Religion of Peace©" doesn't mean it actually is.  Or that it's adherents define "Peace" the same way GWB or BHO define "Peace".  Actually I don't even think GWB and BHO define "Peace" the same way.



Just because nuanced, progressive, sophisticated  sage and wise secularist Westerners say that the current outbreak in the 1200+ year struggle between militant, intolerant, supremacist Islam and everybody else isn't a religious war doesn't mean that's what practicing believers in militant, intolerant, supremacist Islam believe.



Just because GWB says OBL and AQ "misunderstand Islam" doesn't mean that OBL and AQ actually misunderstand Islam.  From their perspective, they are with the program.

Link Posted: 8/12/2011 1:13:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/12/2011 1:16:13 PM EDT by ODA_564]




Originally Posted By hightech_redneck:

So, is Islam REALLY considered a religion if they don't have a "Priest" so to speak as Christians do? They have Mosques, yet ANYONE with knowledge of their Koran can lead prayer, and be an influential leader...

OR is it simply a way of life? Islam teaches to wish for your brother as you do for yourself, yet their tribes fight amongst each other....so within the Mid-east, does each tribe worship different? Interpret the Koran different? They study the same book...what separates the "crazy" ones over the "normal" ones..like this Russian guy I am talking with?


There is no "interpretation of the Koran". In Islam, the Koran is the always existing, uncreated (it always "was"), unchangeable direct word of "Allah", as revealed to Mohammad by the Archangel Gabriel (because no living man can hear "Allah" and live).



The Koran is supposed to be (for Muslims) the true scripture. Mohammad said the Jews got it and corrupted it. He said the Christians got it and corrupted it. Mohammad got it right.



Unfortunately much of the Koran is tied to Mohammad and the events of his life. When he was in Mecca trying to get the Jewish and Gnostic Christian communities to recognize him as a prophet, its all peace and love. When he and his followers are exiled to Medina, frst they are weak and it's all about getting along. Then the Muslims got stronger and started taking out their enemies and it gets all warlike and "fight until Allah's religion reigns supreme".



And of course it was written down after Mohammad's death. There are no "transitional" Korans. And it is organized, not by chronological order, but by the length of the various Sura. So people get confused. And most people have no concept of the Islamic dogma of abrogation - the newer, more recent sura superseded the older ones. So if Mo said "Love everybody" in Mecca early on and later he says "Kill'em all and let "Allah" sort them out" the "kill'em all" part wipes out the "love everybody part".



Then there are the true Hadith (like Bukhari) which are agreed upon anecdotes of Mohammad's life as recounted by his inner circle. These explain / illustrate the Koran.



The "normal ones" are those that aren't fervent practitioners of Islam. They are the equivalent of a liberal progressive Democrat Jew who never goes to synagogue but doesn't eat bacon or a Christian that puts up a Christmas tree but hasn't been to church in 20 years and couldn't name one thing Jesus preached.



The only real difference is between Shi'a and Sunni. And that started as a political thing over the succession in the caliphate after Mo died. Both sides said "we are the real Muslims and you other guys have to die" so they could fight each other. And the Sufi (who both Shi'a and Sunni hate). But they are all Muslim when it comes to killing cross worshippers and Jews and they all read the same Koran.



Post "normal ones" have never read the Koran. In Islam, it doesn't count unless your read it in Arabic (because "Allah" speaks Arabic).



The "crazy ones" are the dedicated, practicing, "following Mohammad's example" Muslims. They are the equivalent of Southern Baptist missionaries who give up everything to dedicate their lives to God while trying to run a hospital in the remotest part of Zimbabwe to save AIDS babies. Except with suicide vests.

Link Posted: 8/12/2011 1:16:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AKengineer:

Originally Posted By hightech_redneck:
So, is Islam REALLY considered a religion if they don't have a "Priest" so to speak as Christians do? They have Mosques, yet ANYONE with knowledge of their Koran can lead prayer, and be an influential leader...
 OR is it simply a way of life? Islam teaches to wish for your brother as you do for yourself, yet their tribes fight amongst each other....so within the Mid-east, does each tribe worship different? Interpret the Koran different? They study the same book...what separates the "crazy" ones over the "normal" ones..like this Russian guy I am talking with?

Christians Protestants don't really need a priest either.  


If I remember my history correctly, that was one of the issues Luther had with the church.  God's right there. Anyone can talk to him through Jesus, no priest required.
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