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Posted: 10/11/2005 5:00:14 PM EDT
Am I in a Patriotic/wish this country were more like this mood or in a dark mood? Which movie to watch?

Hummmmm....
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:02:41 PM EDT
Both good movies. I'd have a hard time deciding between them as well.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:05:03 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:05:51 PM EDT
THE PATRIOT

just make sure it's the one with Mel Gibson, not Steven Seagall
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:06:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Patriot.
The knowledge that EATG was entirely fictional took away from the story.




EATG????


I think I'm in a dark mood tonight. Time to make the popcorn.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:08:27 PM EDT
Enemy at the Gates

You get to see some booty in that one.  
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:09:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:09:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lippo:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Patriot.
The knowledge that EATG was entirely fictional took away from the story.




EATG????


I think I'm in a dark mood tonight. Time to make the popcorn.




EATG = Enemy At The Gates....gotcha.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:10:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 5:11:10 PM EDT by lippo]

Originally Posted By lippo:

Originally Posted By lippo:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Patriot.
The knowledge that EATG was entirely fictional took away from the story.




EATG????


I think I'm in a dark mood tonight. Time to make the popcorn.




EATG = Enemy At The Gates....gotcha.




HOLY CRAP!!!
<­BR>


I'm answering my own questions!!!



*Augh! Posted 30 seconds too late!
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:12:40 PM EDT
The Patriot is more fictional than Enemy at the Gates.

Pick the Patriot though.  

I think the first couple minutes of the movie are really good.  Before he wanted to fight.  After that was good as well.  

Why trade one tyrant 3000 miles away for 3000 tyrants one mile away?
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:15:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Patriot.
The knowledge that EATG was entirely fictional took away from the story.




WTF!!!

EATG was a fictionalized biography.  It was not entirely fictional.  The relationship did exist with the Politbureau officer, the relationship with the babe did exist, and the competition between snipers was true.  "Based on a true story".  Of course the dialogue was not accurate, but all the basic situations were true.  Study a little about WWII eastern front history.  
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:16:21 PM EDT
I like how the final sniper duel ends up at a distance of about 50 feet...
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:16:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 5:18:02 PM EDT by DoubleFeed]
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:23:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By PsyWarrior:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Patriot.
The knowledge that EATG was entirely fictional took away from the story.




WTF!!!

EATG was a fictionalized biography.  It was not entirely fictional.  The relationship did exist with the Politbureau officer, the relationship with the babe did exist, and the competition between snipers was true.  "Based on a true story".  Of course the dialogue was not accurate, but all the basic situations were true.  Study a little about WWII eastern front history.  

The DVD liner notes said the sniper duel never happened.




www.vor.ru/Russia/Stalingraders/Defenders_8_eng.html

www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/stalingrad/rattenkrieg.aspx

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Grigoryevich_Zaitsev

home.swipnet.se/longrange/ZAITSEV.htm
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:42:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By adair_usmc:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By PsyWarrior:

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Patriot.
The knowledge that EATG was entirely fictional took away from the story.




WTF!!!

EATG was a fictionalized biography.  It was not entirely fictional.  The relationship did exist with the Politbureau officer, the relationship with the babe did exist, and the competition between snipers was true.  "Based on a true story".  Of course the dialogue was not accurate, but all the basic situations were true.  Study a little about WWII eastern front history.  

The DVD liner notes said the sniper duel never happened.




www.vor.ru/Russia/Stalingraders/Defenders_8_eng.html

www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/stalingrad/rattenkrieg.aspx

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Grigoryevich_Zaitsev

home.swipnet.se/longrange/ZAITSEV.htm


Russian commie propaganda, don't believe a word of it.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:47:17 PM EDT
As I stated, fictionalized......


during the Battle of Stalingrad killed 225 soldiers and officers of the enemy, including 11 snipers


As for it being russian propaganda, I am German born and I knew about it long before the movie ever came out.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:48:54 PM EDT
Red Dawn.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:49:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 5:53:17 PM EDT by crazyquik]
The characters in EATG are real.  He was really a famous sniper.  He really did grow up in the Urals and learned to shoot by shooting animals (deer, wolves, etc).  Life in Stalingrad really sucked.  People really were sent to fight without rifles.  Soviet officers or NCOs really did shoot thier own soldiers who refused to charge headlong into machineguns.   The true story has also been muddled with Soviet propadanda, Colonel Thorvald (some accounts say Major Konig) may or may not have been sent to die to Vassily's Mosin.  But that is Soviet propoganda, not Hollywood.  

A little bit of it was hollywooded up.  Perhaps he didn't wolf hunt with his father using a horse for bait.  Perhaps the scene where he shoots 5 Germans from that hide in a fountain with a rifle he took from the political officer didn't happen.  The final duel certainly didn't happen that way, if it ever happened.  

The alleged scope from the German rifle is still on display in a museum.  

The Patriot was fictional in that its too main characters DIDN'T EVEN EXIST!!!!!!  Benjamin Martin was probably based on General Francis Marion, the Swamp Fox.  He used lots of similar tactics, and had a reputation of being pretty brutal to the Cherokee before the war.  During the war he was very active in the southern campaign, NC, SC, etc.  Col. Ben Martin (Mel Gibson) used tactics in the movie like Col. Daniel Morgan used at the Battle of Cowpens, where the final major battle of the film was.  Of course Cornwallis wasn't even at this battle but in the movie he was.  Col. Daniel Morgan fought mostly up in New England, then came down to Hillsborough NC and then fought Tarleton at Cowpens.

Col. Tavington is probably based on Gen. Banastre Tarleton who was not a nice guy and was active in that area, came up thru SC and NC.  His dad was a slave trader and he had a reputation for killing prisoners both in America and Ireland.  I wouldn't mind him on my side fighting jihaddist though.  Later he wrote "History of the Campaigns of 1780 and 1781 in the Southern Provinces of North America" which is pretty good (he came right by my town and said nice things about the people there) but biased of course.  

Still he didn't lock civilians into churches and burn them to the ground.  

EATG - real characters and fairly true to the Soviet historical record - biography with some fiction added
Patriot - composite characters and fictional events loosely based on some seperate occurances - complete fiction in a historical setting
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:50:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 5:51:30 PM EDT by panzersergeant]

Originally Posted By lippo:
Am I in a Patriotic/wish this country were more like this mood or in a dark mood? Which movie to watch?

Hummmmm....



I like them both, so flip a coin.

I prefer World War II movies, and there is not very many good ones about the Russian Front. What I would really like to see made is a movie about the Battle of Kursk with some nice CGI Tigers and Panthers duking it out with a horde of T-34s.

IBTM... in before the move to the movie forum...

Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:53:05 PM EDT
Another good choice is "Cross of Iron" with James Colburn.........
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 5:58:48 PM EDT
Get The Patriot.
I like it better when the good guys are
Americans.

Enemy at the Gates is a fine movie, but that
fictional ending does no service to Vassily
Zietsev.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:07:57 PM EDT
I read the book Enemy at the Gates. The sniper story was only a small part of the story.  

IIRC the end of the sniper duels went like this. The Soviet sniper and his spotter set up where the German was likely to find them.  They raised up a helmet and the German shot it. The spotter then threw his arms up and fell back.  The German then got up and got shot.

The overall battle was very brutal.  There was a story from a German who had seen a lot of combat. He was ordered to move into the city and capture a building. He knew this battle was going to be tough when he lost over half of his men just getting to the spot were he was going to launch his attack.

During the Soviet counter attack there as a village several miles from Stalingrad.  The villagers did not like communism or Stalin. So they put up a road block to keep the Soviet troops out. The commander called back to report the problem and ask what to do. HQ told him to wait where he was.  A few minutes later a major artillery barrage destroyed the town.  I can't recall if the troops then moved through the village or killed every one them moved on.  I really don't want to reread the book to find out.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:11:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 6:12:18 PM EDT by raven]
I liked EATG better.  Patriot seemed too much like Braveheart 2: American Boogaloo.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:15:32 PM EDT
If you want to watch pre WWII, watch Gods And Generals.  Civil war, not revolutionary, but still good.  Of course, it too has been seriously fictionalized.  WWII, the 2 best are Tora Tora Tora and Midway, Viet Nam the Green Beret (propaganda) and of course We Were Soldiers.  All are excellent movies IMHO.  Of course the list goes on and on.  Lots of great war movies, most are propaganda, but some are close.  
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:17:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By crazyquik:
The characters in EATG are real.  He was really a famous sniper.  He really did grow up in the Urals and learned to shoot by shooting animals (deer, wolves, etc).  Life in Stalingrad really sucked.  People really were sent to fight without rifles.  Soviet officers or NCOs really did shoot thier own soldiers who refused to charge headlong into machineguns.   The true story has also been muddled with Soviet propadanda, Colonel Thorvald (some accounts say Major Konig) may or may not have been sent to die to Vassily's Mosin.  But that is Soviet propoganda, not Hollywood.  

A little bit of it was hollywooded up.  Perhaps he didn't wolf hunt with his father using a horse for bait.  Perhaps the scene where he shoots 5 Germans from that hide in a fountain with a rifle he took from the political officer didn't happen.  The final duel certainly didn't happen that way, if it ever happened.  

The alleged scope from the German rifle is still on display in a museum.

snip-

EATG - real characters and fairly true to the Soviet historical record - biography with some fiction added
Patriot - composite characters and fictional events loosely based on some seperate occurances - complete fiction in a historical setting



My confusion revolves around why its only the scope?  I'd figure that the rifle would make a far better trophy than merely the optic on top.  For my history of Russia class I wrote a paper about the movie, and that question has always bothered me.

Plus, I wish Konig won... stupid commies.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:20:35 PM EDT
Enemy at the gates... Rachel Weisz is HOT
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 6:26:05 PM EDT
Enemy at the Gates, but skip the irrelevant sex scene.
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:04:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Patriot.
The knowledge that EATG was entirely fictional took away from the story.



And the Pat-Riot isn't fiction? I'm shocked- shocked, I tell you.


Both movies should come with a BIG disclaimer: "Any resemblance between the characters and events depicted in this film and real history is purely and utterly coincidental."

Especially the Pat-Riot, which is so full of BS, one does not know where to begin

Fun films, but check your intellect at the cineplex door. (Make sure you pick it back up on the way out.)
Link Posted: 10/11/2005 7:05:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/11/2005 7:32:47 PM EDT by 95thFoot]
double post
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 3:08:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 3:10:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 2:16:08 PM EDT
Both movies are good, but Enemy at the Gates is better in many ways.

I wish they could do a movie showing more of what happened at Stalingrad.

The main Russian character really was a dangerous sniper.  The female love interest was a pretty dangerous person too.  She's reported to have killed over 40 germans before she was seriously wounded.  Oh, and in real life she was blond and after she was wounded she didn't find Vassily again until about 20 years after the war.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 2:37:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:

Originally Posted By GabbasaurusRex:
Enemy at the Gates, but skip the irrelevant sex scene.

No sex scene is ever irrelevant.


That one is, since she looks like she's dying.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 2:54:08 PM EDT
Enemy at the Gates

After watching a programme about the story behind it, it is a pretty true representation of real events of Vasili's sniper abilities.

Taffy

Link Posted: 10/13/2005 3:03:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By migradog:
Red Dawn.





Link Posted: 10/13/2005 4:19:28 PM EDT
He was real, and a great sniper, but the duel was not. From your own link


According to Anthony Beevor's book, some Soviet sources claimed that the Germans brought in the chief of their sniper school, Colonel Heinz Thorvald (or some say his name was Major König), to hunt down Zaitsev, but Zaitsev outwitted him. Zaitsev, after a hunt of several days, apparently spotted his opponent hiding under a sheet of corrugated iron, and shot him dead. The telescopic sight from his victim's rifle, allegedly Zaitsev's most treasured trophy, is still exhibited in the Moscow armed forces museum, but this dramatic story remains essentially unconfirmed. It is worth noting that there is absolutely no mention of it in any of the reports to Aleksandr Shcherbakov, even though almost every aspect of sniperism was reported with relish.

Several other sniper places on the web state that there is no mention of this in the offical unit history either.
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 4:27:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tankdriver:
He was real, and a great sniper, but the duel was not. From your own link


According to Anthony Beevor's book, some Soviet sources claimed that the Germans brought in the chief of their sniper school, Colonel Heinz Thorvald (or some say his name was Major König), to hunt down Zaitsev, but Zaitsev outwitted him. Zaitsev, after a hunt of several days, apparently spotted his opponent hiding under a sheet of corrugated iron, and shot him dead. The telescopic sight from his victim's rifle, allegedly Zaitsev's most treasured trophy, is still exhibited in the Moscow armed forces museum, but this dramatic story remains essentially unconfirmed. It is worth noting that there is absolutely no mention of it in any of the reports to Aleksandr Shcherbakov, even though almost every aspect of sniperism was reported with relish.

Several other sniper places on the web state that there is no mention of this in the offical unit history either.




I saw it on a download from ABC it must be true
Link Posted: 10/14/2005 3:39:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/14/2005 8:37:07 AM EDT
IF you want a Dark movie, watch "Stalingrad".    Made by the same folks as "Das Boat".   Same feel as "Platoon" and others.   Hard to watch.  Very good movie.
Link Posted: 10/14/2005 10:39:29 AM EDT
First article comes from snipercountry.com.

Thorvald and/or Konig

There is great debate over wether the legendary WWII German sniper that was sent to Stalingrad to dispatch of Vasili Zaitzev was Konig, Thorvald, or even wether he existed at all. In fact in the actual Soviet war records, it originally showed up as a Maj. Erwin Konig, which is in fact a very basic and plain German Name at the time. In Vasili Zaitsev's war memoirs, he later refers to him as Heinz Thorvald, which was yet another popular German name in that time period. Thorvald seems to be the name that is used more now, and its confusing as to which it was, and if they were the same person, or one was a mistake, or wether the German Super Sniper was fabricated by the Soviet press to represent the German army, or German snipers on a "whole", and that the story was just a means of providing morale for the Soviet troops. The two names are on official Soviet war records, but there is no record of either name in the German record books (not to say they couldn't have removed the name to save grace). Any way you look at it, its confusing and debatable. Since both names appear in Soviet propaganda and war records, Konig in early war records and Thorvald in Zaitsevs memoirs and in later war records, I have included them both on the list until there is concrete proof that one or the other, or both, did not exist.
In regards to Vasili Zaitsev, there is no doubt he existed, and was a very accomplished and successful sniper.

Second one comes from Sniper's Paradise


SO GOES THE STORY

Zaitsev eventually was credited with 142-242(varies) kills at Stalingrad. He received the Order of Lenin and by the end of the war; he personally had accounted for 400 Germans and was declared a Hero of the Soviet Union.

WAS THERE A MAJOR KONIG?

The above is one account of the incident. There are several versions of the duel, but they all have some of the following elements: Glare from sniper scope, helmet, decoy, under boilerplate, Red October factory district, German sniper, Major Konig, wounded commissar, Vasilis spotter, glove and over several days. Several historians doubt that the incident ever took place, and others believe it did. One interviewed Sgt Tania Charnova and Kulikov, members of Vasilis sniper team, and one believes that the duel was a product of Russian propaganda. The story of a Major Konig coming to kill Vasili originated from a German POW. In one statement he said that Zaitsev would soon die. In another statement he mentions a Major Konig, from Berlin. Did he pick this information up from other prisoners, or did he know it himself? The problem lies in the fact that all documentation of the duel comes from the Russian side. There is no documentation from the German side. Until there is such documentation, we cant be sure. Vasili, in his sniper diary, never mentions the word "Major." There was a German sniper, but was he sent by Berlin to kill Zaitsev? There were many German snipers in Stalingrad. My own view is that, because of Vasilis record, it would not be unreasonable for Germany to send an expert sniper to hunt him down and kill him. It is also not unreasonable to believe that Vasili did kill a German sniper hidden under a boilerplate, who was trying to kill him.

WHAT DID VASILI BELIEVE?

Did the Russian Propaganda Ministry tell Vasili that a super-sniper was sent to kill him? Yes. If Vasili had killed a sniper who had the rank of Major, I am sure he would have known and mentioned it. Would the Germans send someone that prestigious, who was a high-ranking officer and Commandant of one of their sniper schools to Stalingrad? I doubt it. Would they have sent a top enlisted sniper to hunt down and kill Vasili? Yes, more probably. In any case, Vasili believed in his own mind that he had killed the super-sniper that he was told was sent to kill him. Without documentation from Germany, we will never know for sure if there was a Major Konig, or that an expert sniper was sent specifically to kill Vasili.




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