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Posted: 11/22/2001 7:01:58 PM EDT
Time to watch those Pakis again! WASHINGTON: Pakistan faces its Kargil II following reports that its regular troops are among those trapped in the besieged Northern Afghanistan town of Kunduz. Although the reports are being attributed to the Northern Alliance, the desperate campaign launched by Pakistan’s military ruler Pervez Musharraf and foreign minister Abdul Sattar to save the trapped fighters indicate more than a passing interest in saving its nationals if not its troops.
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 7:03:17 PM EDT
Western intelligence agencies believe that Pakistan has always maintained a "plausible deniability" about its direct armed involvement with the Taliban, but there are now a raft of reports in the media here about Pakistanis fighting alongside their retreating Taliban brethern. Alliance commanders in Afghanistan are reported saying that Pakistan has begun secretly evacuating its troops, including ranking officers, from Kunduz with nightime helicopter landings while they are holding fire. The situation in Kunduz, the besieged town in Northern Afghanistan, is now being compared to Kargil, where Pakistan infiltrated its regular troops along with the so-called mujaheddin, and later disowned its own units when they were slaughtered by the Indian Army as it recaptured the territories. The Pakistani media reported that the establishment’s chicanery caused a great deal of heartburn in the northern areas from where the sacrificed soldiers were drawn from.
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 7:03:47 PM EDT
The Bush administration has refrained from identifying Pakistan’s official involvement, preferring to suggest that the "foreign fighters," as the Pakistanis are euphemistically called, are part of the jehadis. But the urgent SOS from the Pakistani leadership calling for a safe passage for its nationals indicates a greater urgency than any private militia would have called for. So far at least, Washington has now shown any inclination to save the Pakistani skin. "My thoughts are very simple about negotiations (for safe passage)… and that is that the people either surrender or they ought to be fought," Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said on Wednesday. He added that the proposition that the fighters be let free so that they could "go and bring terror to other countries is unacceptable to the United States. In saying this, Washington appears to be agreeing with the Northern Alliance, one of whose leaders deputy defence minister Atiqullah Baryalai was quoted as saying "These are evil people. When an evil person is cornered, he surrenders. But as soon as he gets a chance to stab you in the back, he will take it." But Musharraf and his foreign minister Sattar have launched a strong campaign for at least a documented surrender of the Pakistanis, if not a safe passage back to Pakistan. Islamabad is also promising to "arrest" the fighters if they are allowed to return to Pakistan. According to one report, he siege of Kunduz is especially sensitive to the Pakistani establishment because the relatives of some of the country's most powerful religious leaders are trapped there. The jehadis have already warned the Musharraf regime of severe consequences if the fighters trapped in Kunduz are allowed to be slaughtered. On the face of it, the US is still sticking to the line that Pakistan is a frontline ally in the war against terrorism. But beneath all the sugary expressions, the Bush administration has begun a quiet and sustained campaign to leach Pakistan of its jehadis. Without identifying it by name – and invoking the smokescreen of Iraq and other countries - Washington has initiated a series of strong measures against Pakistan. The moves began with pressure on the military regime to purge the establishment – including in the ISI, the armed forces, and its nuclear set-up -- of fundamentalists. Then came the orders to detain and arrest the jehadi leadership, and still later the crackdown on the Taliban representation in Pakistan. More recently, Washington has started a naval interdiction of the coast of Karachi to prevent Osama bin Laden or any Al-Qaeda terrorist from fleeing. The US Navy issued an advisory bulletin on Tuesday warning mariners in the region that commercial vessels, "particularly those operating off the Pakistani coast," would be boarded if suspected of transporting bin Laden or his associates.
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 7:16:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/22/2001 7:09:27 PM EDT by njogi]
Having quoted the above - I am more pleased to see that we have administration that at least would see what lies underneath the sheets, so to speak- They are pressuring the Paki's - In sense like disciplining the dogs - No do ... no money! You all know what those Paki Merchants say .. Like America very much .. Yes, Like to go there someday... But if my business gets affected ...I will go and join in Jihad .. Death to America! ....
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 8:18:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By njogi: Washington has (not) shown any inclination to save the Pakistani skin. "My thoughts are very simple about negotiations (for safe passage)… and that is that the people either surrender or they ought to be fought," Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said on Wednesday. He added that the proposition that the fighters be let free so that they could "go and bring terror to other countries is unacceptable to the United States.
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God Bless Donald!
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 8:47:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 8:57:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By njogi: Time to watch those Pakis again!
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njogi, are you of Indian ancestry? It's been a long time since I've heard such a rant against "the Pakis"! DaMan
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 9:06:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/22/2001 9:02:04 PM EDT by njogi]
It's funny how the media over here reports on Pakistanis' stand against those who went there to fight and when they come back they will get prison sentences and in fact they already have to into prison one of the leaders. Typical play of Paki's with the media, say something and do something else. If that was a fact then why is Pakistan worrying about needing the foreign militants in the Taliban be given safe passage. I think they are worried about just how many of the Regular Army will be exposed. Those night flight of choppers from Pakistan is bailing them out but the sacrificial lambs will be those poor bastards that went voluntary from Pakistan that were not part of regular Army.
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 9:15:22 PM EDT
njogi, I take it you are Indian! Is India supporting the NA? Which factions? DaMan
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 9:28:20 PM EDT
DaMan; Yes, second Gen. born in Africa. I am just bringing into light something I have learned from years from its conflict with India and current role in Kashmir. Have seen a lot of reporting that does not necessary get mentioned by our media coverage - even with Foxnews. I do not mind as much us needing Pakistan as much as they need us but we need to watch that we do not over do our help to them to make more financial well to support terrorism covertly even more. We want to keep them wanting more money from us to keep them under control! I do not want India to take over Pakistan - That would be bad for India as they would now have thousands of terrorists within a Nation. So being an American now I want to voice my concerns of us wanting to think we have friends in Arab and Pakistani World - We do not. We just have an understanding of support for exchange on something they want. Turn our back and we get daggered! :)
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 9:47:00 PM EDT
DaMan; I know India provided much need support to NA but do not know exactly which ones - They try to keep that low profile. But here's some interesting release: Trapped Pak commanders pulled out from Kunduz EW DELHI: Two Pakistan air force helicopters pulled out two of their top military commanders trapped in the beseiged Kunduz town on Sunday, according to highly placed defence sources here. The sources quoting eyewitness accounts from Northern Alliance commanders said that the two helicopters flying low, landed in the heart of the Kunduz town on Sunday and flew out soon after, carrying two chopper loads of personnel. The two officers, both of brigadier rank, were said to be part of 1000-strong regular Pakistani armymen trapped in Kunduz and were directing the Taliban fighters in Kunduz and in Mazar-i-Sharif, the sources said. They said that these forces were part of Pakistani army units, seconded to the Taliban ranks for command and control operations. The rescue operations were mounted by Pakistan's elite special services group. This is the second time in recent weeks that reports have surfaced of Pakistani helicopters or aircraft landing in Afghanistan on "mysterious missions". Earlier, American television network CNN had reported a Pakistani air force plane landing in the Taliban's southern Afghanistan stronghold of Kandahar. ( PTI )
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 9:49:58 PM EDT
njogi, I'd like to hear your opinion on our "billion dollar" foreign aid support to Pakistan. DaMan
Link Posted: 11/22/2001 10:43:19 PM EDT
DaMan; In a way all this happening is a Gods Gift for Musharraf as his Country was getting Bankrupt real fast and was he was in danger of losing control of his country. His only way to change focus was the troubles in Kashmir - Keep people focus away from internal problems. After Sept 11, Pow! we need a Staging point and he saw his way out.. Gods Gift! He knows he has to walk a fine line. He knows he has Military to keep him safe and if he gives what US wants wants in exchange for bale outs, he is country will survive and he is safe. So he plays the game. visits US, makes Media believe he is with us 100 % and makes smart arguments. Almost plays the game the Chinese Play. They try to sneak into deals like wanting help in buying the latest US fighter Aircraft, but that fails as we have good people in Power. We forgive his loans, while I do not like the Idea, but I know it is a business deal for what we want. The Key thing is to watch what military Equipment we give. I not afraid of Nuclear treat it makes. India is not afraid of it, nuclear power gives Pakistan a good Bluff to make against India. We would go in if the matter gets worst like a chance of it getting into hands of terrorists. If India was needing to compete against them they can make several more devices for every one the Pakis make. But India does not have to worry as its conventional forces are more than enough to take care of the matter if it wanted to. I do not think it wants to take Pakistan, it wants peace but just like Israel it won't get it. They are locked into it forever. The foreign pressure will keep the Nuke capability in check - One thing Pakis need which India does not need as much is the Foreign Aid. I wish India did not have to spend as much in Military but there is no way out. You have to got to be strong to keep enemy at Bay. So we just need to watch what we give and when we give we keep in check what they do with it. No weapons in that deal - They want our weapons but have to buy Chinese right now since we do not want tovgive, that is good enough for me. I do not think US will invest in Pakistan because it won't be safe there for our investing companies. So we have to spoon feed them, enough to keep the fundamentalists abay for taking power like in Iran. India has it's faults as far as not allowing free enterprise to come freely and it in part due to some un-educated bastards and corruption but you do not have to worry about it becoming a terrorist nation like Pakistan. India is very adaptable and can do really good if they get rid of corruption and organize the Govt. but it will take lots of time and education! :( Very good potential but I think time is not its side.. Too much red tape to get anything done there... India would have been able to provide much secure base for cheap labor than China otherwise!
Link Posted: 11/23/2001 1:35:22 AM EDT
I think it's obvious that Pakistan is complicit to some extent, however if it's possible for them to route out the assholes and save face in the process, then I'm all for it. The Pakistani government has some difficult decisions to make. They can side with the West, and become part of the civilized world, or they can give in to the fundamentalist clergy at home and continue on their downward spiral. It's time for them to make a choice. As far as India is concerned, hopefully the US will regulate the way in which foreign aid is spent in Pakistan. It would not be in anyone interests to arm Pakistan to such an extent as to destabilize that region even further, however we did it with Iraq in regards to Iran, so who knows.
Link Posted: 11/23/2001 1:27:50 PM EDT
Since the Indians have been moving away from a soviet style planned economy our relations with them have improved. We should definitely be cooperating with them on a military level as well. It is very clear to me that India does not have some greater, militaristic agenda, and we share the concern over muslim fundamentalism and the Chinese military build-up (come to think of it so does Russia). If India was interested in controlling Pakistan they would have occupied that nation during a previous war. What they did do was to setup Bangladesh as an independent country. Very sensible of them. Not to get off on a rant but I have to agree with njogi. Even when it comes to immigration the "Pakis" are a lot of trouble. I haven't heard of any Indian immigrants rioting, mugging people, etc. In fact they undoubtedly are responsible for far less crime than the general population.
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