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Posted: 6/16/2009 6:30:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 6:33:32 AM EST by LouisianaCarry]
Taken in the aggregate, is the US Federal Government, in the eyes of Arfcom, more of a friend or a foe of liberty?
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:30:36 AM EST
IBTP
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:31:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 6:33:20 AM EST by PUBBOY]
Foe.

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government. Thomas Jefferson

Ours is neither wise nor frugal, and therefore no friend to freedom.

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:33:17 AM EST
I forgot the standard disclaimer that I am not advocating anything illegal- purely an informational exercise.

Also, I consider it a rhetorical question, just wondering if that is the general consensus.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:33:36 AM EST
WIKI:

Political freedom is the absence of interference with the sovereignty of an individual by the use of coercion or aggression, a definition which is also known as negative liberty. Political freedom can also be described as having the power and resources to act to fulfill one's own potential, as in the definition of positive liberty. Presumably within both definitions, the members of a free society have full dominion over their public and private lives but positive liberty addresses the notion of human agency, whereas, the definition attributed to negative liberty addresses only an individual's actions and not his/her social circumstances.

The opposite of a free society would be a totalitarian state, which highly restricts political freedom in order to regulate almost every aspect of behavior. In this sense ‘freedom’ refers solely to the relation of humans to other humans, and the only infringement on it is coercion by humans[1], as suggested within the definition of negative liberty.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:35:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By PUBBOY:
Foe.

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government. Thomas Jefferson

Ours is neither wise nor frugal, and therefore no friend to freedom.


When all government, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the Center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated. – Thomas Jefferson
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:35:14 AM EST
The government cannot give freedom, only restrict it.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:36:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By PUBBOY:
Foe.

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government. Thomas Jefferson

Ours is neither wise nor frugal, and therefore no friend to freedom.


Winner. /thread.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:36:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By RI0T:
IBTD_A


Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:36:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By ARsonist:

Originally Posted By PUBBOY:
Foe.

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government. Thomas Jefferson

Ours is neither wise nor frugal, and therefore no friend to freedom.


Winner. /thread.


Agreed
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:37:58 AM EST
Foe. The gov cannot be trusted.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:38:33 AM EST
If I stop paying my taxes, men with guns will come and get me.
If I am in possession of certain plants, men with guns will come get me.
If I am in possession of certain weapons, men with guns will come get me.
If I say what I honestly feel about our gov, men with guns will likely come get me.

....

Yeah, they sure are friendly. I call no group of people that steal from me and dictate my behavior at the end of a loaded gun a friend.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:38:54 AM EST

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

-Samuel Adams

"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to William S. Smith, 1787
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:39:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Originally Posted By ARsonist:

Originally Posted By PUBBOY:
Foe.

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government. Thomas Jefferson

Ours is neither wise nor frugal, and therefore no friend to freedom.


Winner. /thread.


Agreed




Well said!
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:39:35 AM EST
Foe-

You gotta bail out the banks(more like the various peoples of the world get conned, along with the american taxpayer\citizen).
You need to fund our "stimulus" bills. In other words, you need to be an idiot and fund our spending through lending\theft.
Etc, etc...
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:39:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Originally Posted By ARsonist:

Originally Posted By PUBBOY:
Foe.

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government. Thomas Jefferson

Ours is neither wise nor frugal, and therefore no friend to freedom.


Winner. /thread.


Agreed


+1
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:40:20 AM EST
How is this even a question? And where the hell are the three guys that voted for the government?
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:42:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ahiodsohi:
How is this even a question? And where the hell are the three guys that voted for the government?

If some of them would gather the cajones to put forth their rationale, this might get interesting.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:44:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By packingXDs:
If I stop paying my taxes, men with guns will come and get me.
If I am in possession of certain plants, men with guns will come get me.
If I am in possession of certain weapons, men with guns will come get me.
If I say what I honestly feel about our gov, men with guns will likely come get me.

....

Yeah, they sure are friendly. I call no group of people that steal from me and dictate my behavior at the end of a loaded gun a friend.


Yep.


Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:44:36 AM EST
As long as the Feds are willing to go against the will of the people they are our foes. One of the very few things I actually like about Obama being in office, is that the Feds are no longer going after California voter-legalized medical marijuana producers. Now the worthless fucks will have to find something else to do.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:46:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By LouisianaCarry:
Taken in the aggregate, is the US Federal Government, in the eyes of Arfcom, more of a friend or a foe of liberty?

The Federal government is very much a 'friend' of liberty - far moreso than the individual states...

Take essentially any issue that folks have an issue about, and the states are worse...

Gun Control? That's easy... States

Welfare? States again.... Yes, the Feds *fund* some of it, but the states run the programs...

The only possible issue on which the states are not 'worse' is taxation, but the US government's constitutional responsibilities REQUIRE far more money than the states do....

How many court cases out there involve a state getting sued over violating rights, a/o the US?

It's an overbearing majority against the INDIVIDUAL STATES...

Most of the 'civil rights' you enjoy? Enforced against the states by the Feds...

Where do you go when your state/local govt violates you rights? Federal court...

And so on...


Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:46:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By axmurderer:
As long as the Feds are willing to go against the will of the people they are our foes. One of the very few things I actually like about Obama being in office, is that the Feds are no longer going after California voter-legalized medical marijuana producers. Now the worthless fucks will have to find something else to do.

You do realize that it was 'the will of the people' who elected the last administration, to force California to observe the law with regard to pot, right?


Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:47:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By axmurderer:
As long as the Feds are willing to go against the will of the people they are our foes. One of the very few things I actually like about Obama being in office, is that the Feds are no longer going after California voter-legalized medical marijuana producers. Now the worthless fucks will have to find something else to do.

You do realize that it was 'the will of the people' who elected the last administration, to force California to observe the law with regard to pot, right?





Yes, and I also realize that they got their asses kicked in the last election. Your point?
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:48:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By packingXDs:
If I stop paying my taxes, men with guns will come and get me.
If I am in possession of certain plants, men with guns will come get me.
If I am in possession of certain weapons, men with guns will come get me.
If I say what I honestly feel about our gov, men with guns will likely come get me.

....

Yeah, they sure are friendly. I call no group of people that steal from me and dictate my behavior at the end of a loaded gun a friend.

And 9/10 times, those 'men with guns' will be wearing a state or local uniform...

No one will come and get you for speaking your mind...

And it seems, based on the above, that you just might be someone who has an issue with ANY government - since taxes are a part of life in a civilized country, period...


Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:48:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Rattle_Snake:

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

-Samuel Adams

"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to William S. Smith, 1787


My, and I suspect the sentiments of most on this site. Well what are we going to do about it?
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:49:08 AM EST
Because we are the most free country in the history of the world, and the greatest country, I vote friend.

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:49:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
The only possible issue on which the states are not 'worse' is taxation, but the US government's constitutional responsibilities REQUIRE far more money than the states do....

Right, because the entitlements which are more than half of the federal budget are constitutional responsibilities.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:49:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By axmurderer:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By axmurderer:
As long as the Feds are willing to go against the will of the people they are our foes. One of the very few things I actually like about Obama being in office, is that the Feds are no longer going after California voter-legalized medical marijuana producers. Now the worthless fucks will have to find something else to do.

You do realize that it was 'the will of the people' who elected the last administration, to force California to observe the law with regard to pot, right?





Yes, and I also realize that they got their asses kicked in the last election. Your point?

My point is that enforcing laws against pot is not 'going against the will of the people'...

And celebrating Obama winning the election is not going to get you many brownie points here...

We (GOP) will be back, and the war on drugs will continue....
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:50:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By mnd:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
The only possible issue on which the states are not 'worse' is taxation, but the US government's constitutional responsibilities REQUIRE far more money than the states do....

Right, because the entitlements which are more than half of the federal budget are constitutional responsibilities.

The point of that statement, is that even without those entitlements, the Feds would still have MUCH larger budget requirements than the states...

Entitlement spending is also a HUGE part of STATE budgets, too...

Why do you think Cali is so broke?
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:50:59 AM EST
First off… there is no government. Or, rather there is, but it has no will of its own. It simply reflects the collective will of the people who run the government. And the individuals running our government right now shouldn’t be trusted…

Government as an institution is like fire. Properly contained it’s a great servant of mankind. But when you let it get out of control then you are going to see everything you own turned to ash.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:52:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Thuban:
First off… there is no government. Or, rather there is, but it has no will of its own. It simply reflects the collective will of the people who run the government. And the individuals running our government right now shouldn’t be trusted…

Government as an institution is like fire. Properly contained it’s a great servant of mankind. But when you let it get out of control then you are going to see everything you own turned to ash.

I'll agree with that 100%...

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:53:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By axmurderer:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By axmurderer:
As long as the Feds are willing to go against the will of the people they are our foes. One of the very few things I actually like about Obama being in office, is that the Feds are no longer going after California voter-legalized medical marijuana producers. Now the worthless fucks will have to find something else to do.

You do realize that it was 'the will of the people' who elected the last administration, to force California to observe the law with regard to pot, right?






Yes, and I also realize that they got their asses kicked in the last election. Your point?

My point is that enforcing laws against pot is not 'going against the will of the people'...

And celebrating Obama winning the election is not going to get you many brownie points here...

We (GOP) will be back, and the war on drugs will continue....


It definitely IS going against the will of the people if the people of the State of California voted for the legalization of medical marijuana and then the Fed OVERRODE the will of the people. Where the hell have you been for the last 5 years?

The war on drugs will continue to fail as well. Nothing new there.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:53:55 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By LouisianaCarry:
Taken in the aggregate, is the US Federal Government, in the eyes of Arfcom, more of a friend or a foe of liberty?

The Federal government is very much a 'friend' of liberty - far moreso than the individual states...

Take essentially any issue that folks have an issue about, and the states are worse...

Gun Control? That's easy... States

Welfare? States again.... Yes, the Feds *fund* some of it, but the states run the programs...

The only possible issue on which the states are not 'worse' is taxation, but the US government's constitutional responsibilities REQUIRE far more money than the states do....

How many court cases out there involve a state getting sued over violating rights, a/o the US?

It's an overbearing majority against the INDIVIDUAL STATES...

Most of the 'civil rights' you enjoy? Enforced against the states by the Feds...

Where do you go when your state/local govt violates you rights? Federal court...

And so on...




FAIL.

Get back with us when you pull your head out of your hind quarters...

You are answering questions no one is asking.

GENERALLY speaking the Federal government has egregiously over stepped the bounds of reasonable authority.

If you don't see that, you are a fool.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

If the quote above doesn't sum up our current dilemma, then I don't know what does...
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:55:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By azmjs:
Because we are the most free country in the history of the world, and the greatest country, I vote friend.



LOL!

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:55:43 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:57:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Thuban:
First off… there is no government. Or, rather there is, but it has no will of its own. It simply reflects the collective will of the people who run the government. And the individuals running our government right now shouldn’t be trusted…

Government as an institution is like fire. Properly contained it’s a great servant of mankind. But when you let it get out of control then you are going to see everything you own turned to ash.

I'll agree with that 100%...



Government is like a fire, but in our case one that has gotten out of control.

That's the problem.

We are on a fast track to Socialism because of people like you Dave, but you are too blind to see it.

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:58:10 AM EST
FOE - At present, the Fed is destroying The People's rights at an unprecedented pace. Religion is under full attack. America is dying before our eyes.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 6:59:01 AM EST
The government is our friend.

ALL HAIL OBAMA!!!
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:01:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Originally Posted By mnd:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
The only possible issue on which the states are not 'worse' is taxation, but the US government's constitutional responsibilities REQUIRE far more money than the states do....

Right, because the entitlements which are more than half of the federal budget are constitutional responsibilities.

The point of that statement, is that even without those entitlements, the Feds would still have MUCH larger budget requirements than the states...

Entitlement spending is also a HUGE part of STATE budgets, too...

Why do you think Cali is so broke?

Because at no level are the checks and balances functioning to keep limited government limited.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:05:09 AM EST
For those that voted that the fedgov is your enemy:: consider where you might be if there were no military to defend this country against external agressors.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:06:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By MitchAlsup:
For those that voted that the fedgov is your enemy:: consider where you might be if there were no military to defend this country against external agressors.


Overrun by illegal immigrants?
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:07:08 AM EST
Without a doubt: foe
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:09:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 7:11:41 AM EST by PUBBOY]
Originally Posted By mnd:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Originally Posted By mnd:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
The only possible issue on which the states are not 'worse' is taxation, but the US government's constitutional responsibilities REQUIRE far more money than the states do....

Right, because the entitlements which are more than half of the federal budget are constitutional responsibilities.

The point of that statement, is that even without those entitlements, the Feds would still have MUCH larger budget requirements than the states...

Entitlement spending is also a HUGE part of STATE budgets, too...

Why do you think Cali is so broke?

Because at no level are the checks and balances functioning to keep limited government limited.


Yep, because this warning wasn't heeded: When all government, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the Center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated. – Thomas Jefferson

The above is a concept that some can never grasp...

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:12:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By PUBBOY:
Originally Posted By mnd:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Originally Posted By mnd:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
The only possible issue on which the states are not 'worse' is taxation, but the US government's constitutional responsibilities REQUIRE far more money than the states do....

Right, because the entitlements which are more than half of the federal budget are constitutional responsibilities.

The point of that statement, is that even without those entitlements, the Feds would still have MUCH larger budget requirements than the states...

Entitlement spending is also a HUGE part of STATE budgets, too...

Why do you think Cali is so broke?

Because at no level are the checks and balances functioning to keep limited government limited.


Yep, because this warning wasn't heeded: When all government, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the Center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated. – Thomas Jefferson

The above is a concept some can never grasp...



Grasping it is not the same as believing it has happened.

The federal government still serves as a powerful check against out of control state governments, and this has been shown time and time again.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:16:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By PUBBOY:
Originally Posted By mnd:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Originally Posted By mnd:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
The only possible issue on which the states are not 'worse' is taxation, but the US government's constitutional responsibilities REQUIRE far more money than the states do....

Right, because the entitlements which are more than half of the federal budget are constitutional responsibilities.

The point of that statement, is that even without those entitlements, the Feds would still have MUCH larger budget requirements than the states...

Entitlement spending is also a HUGE part of STATE budgets, too...

Why do you think Cali is so broke?

Because at no level are the checks and balances functioning to keep limited government limited.


Yep, because this warning wasn't heeded: When all government, in little as in great things, shall be drawn to Washington as the Center of all power, it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated. – Thomas Jefferson

The above is a concept that some can never grasp...


Jefferson's concern (And that of the anti-federalists) was EXTERMELY mis-placed...

The greatest offenders against citizen rights have been the individual states, not the Feds...

The federal government's power is, generally, a check against state-level violations....
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:17:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 7:19:30 AM EST by Rattle_Snake]
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
Originally Posted By Rattle_Snake:

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands, which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

-Samuel Adams

"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to William S. Smith, 1787


My, and I suspect the sentiments of most on this site. Well what are we going to do about it?


Everyone on here Knows the correct answer to that question, but the real question has been asked time and time again.....WILL YOU PHYSICALLY FIGHT FOR YOUR FREEDOMS. With the as of late tea parties I would say yes and people need to remember the remember the small majority when we had our first civil war.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:17:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By mnd:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Originally Posted By mnd:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
The only possible issue on which the states are not 'worse' is taxation, but the US government's constitutional responsibilities REQUIRE far more money than the states do....

Right, because the entitlements which are more than half of the federal budget are constitutional responsibilities.

The point of that statement, is that even without those entitlements, the Feds would still have MUCH larger budget requirements than the states...

Entitlement spending is also a HUGE part of STATE budgets, too...

Why do you think Cali is so broke?

Because at no level are the checks and balances functioning to keep limited government limited.

The system is functioning just fine...

Enough of the population doesn't WANT the goverment 'limited', so they vote for those who will expand it...

Not my preferred outcome, but a legitimate one...

Cali is broke because of their entitlement programs....

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:20:12 AM EST
Ironic that we at AR15.com view the Federal Government as the bad guy and talk about state's rights, but then look to the Federal Government to incorporate the Second Amendment and over rule state and local gun bans. It seems that we only support state's rights when it suits us.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:21:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
The system is functioning just fine...

Enough of the population doesn't WANT the goverment 'limited', so they vote for those who will expand it...

Not my preferred outcome, but a legitimate one...

Cali is broke because of their entitlement programs....

Uh, therefore the government is an enemy of freedom.

We live in a Republic.

Some things are OFF LIMITS to the government by design, yet people keep pushing the limits and the checks and balances put in place to say "NO!" aren't working.

You are essentially saying that mob rule is OK.

Fuck that.
Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:23:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2009 7:25:05 AM EST by Rattle_Snake]
Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By mnd:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
Originally Posted By mnd:
Originally Posted By Dave_A:
The only possible issue on which the states are not 'worse' is taxation, but the US government's constitutional responsibilities REQUIRE far more money than the states do....

Right, because the entitlements which are more than half of the federal budget are constitutional responsibilities.

The point of that statement, is that even without those entitlements, the Feds would still have MUCH larger budget requirements than the states...

Entitlement spending is also a HUGE part of STATE budgets, too...

Why do you think Cali is so broke?

Because at no level are the checks and balances functioning to keep limited government limited.

The system is functioning just fine...

Enough of the population doesn't WANT the government 'limited', so they vote for those who will expand it...

Not my preferred outcome, but a legitimate one...
Agree

Cali is broke because of their entitlement programs....
agree



Polls have shown that the American people do not want a large Government, only those who have the entitlement mentality want it to continue. If they would allow the American people to be able to vote for anyone and not restrict them to two choices. The same two very corrupt partyies and any outsider who can truly make a difference is blocked from sight. Because it threatens their power and their lobbiest groups will have none of that.

Link Posted: 6/16/2009 7:23:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By motown_steve:
Ironic that we at AR15.com view the Federal Government as the bad guy and talk about state's rights, but then look to the Federal Government to incorporate the Second Amendment and over rule state and local gun bans. It seems that we only support state's rights when it suits us.


I live in the state of Chicagostan, I'm no too happy about the way they respond to state's rights.
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