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Posted: 3/8/2015 4:09:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2015 4:13:12 PM EDT by R_Steel]
The first 3 pages:







Source:

http://judiciary.house.gov/_cache/files/e745ea56-5280-4ecc-a91d-5f7239691c1f/030415-atf-letter.pdf

- - - - -

Maybe they could have addressed the “sporting use” nonsense, but that’s another subject. Goodlatte did put it in quotes to distance themselves from the ATF phraseology.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:23:57 PM EDT
Within the letter, they suggested that sporting purpose "should be broadly understood" as including "target practice, hunting, organized and casual competition, training and skills development, and instructional activities."

The signatories to this letter seem to address the sporting use issue, and do so in a broad manner. That seems like the only thing they leave out is self-defense, which isn't a sporting issue.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:33:28 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bdub:
Within the letter, they suggested that sporting purpose "should be broadly understood" as including "target practice, hunting, organized and casual competition, training and skills development, and instructional activities."

The signatories to this letter seem to address the sporting use issue, and do so in a broad manner. That seems like the only thing they leave out is self-defense, which isn't a sporting issue.
View Quote

M855 isn't the greatest round for self defense, much better suited to target practice. ( so you can hone your skills w/o using the expensive ammo) Same reason I practice using ball .45 acp, instead of hollow points.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:35:26 PM EDT
ATF will tell Congress to pick up their cans
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:35:35 PM EDT
It that sense yes, broadly understood about what is being said, for sporting use for 'sporting purposes,' and what you touched on for self-defense being left out. And they could have or should have included the actual intent of the 2nd Amendment.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:36:48 PM EDT
They're sending it to the ATF, which makes this document some VERY expensive toilet paper.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:38:57 PM EDT
In before some lib- tard chimes in to claim that the Republican and the Democratic Parties are entirely the same.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:40:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2015 6:41:53 PM EDT by bob1946]
Can someone with a better pdf reader than me copy and paste the signors names to this thread? They are all listed after the pages with the real signatures.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:41:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2015 4:42:14 PM EDT by Gadsden1776]
Reading that letter is very reassuring that at minimum, congress understands and gets the facts and details of this problem. They hit the important issues on the head, unlike all the idiots that have been on TV talking about this. Who knows what will happen, but it's a good start.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:41:42 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JellyBelly:
They're sending it to the ATF, which makes this document some VERY expensive toilet paper.
View Quote


That's the attitude!


Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:42:50 PM EDT
I hate that agencies can make laws that I can be charged a criminal offense for.

Thought we had elected officials we put in office for this.
Create the laws that it's voters wanted.


Hated them giving the ATF the authority to do this.

That's like putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

They pick and chose what laws to make and enforce.

Just like Eric Holder and his Justice Department.Just blatantly defy Congress.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:43:37 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By America-first:
In before some lib- tard chimes in to claim that the Republican and the Democratic Parties are entirely the same.
View Quote


Slight differences. One likes to grow gvt and spend wildly slightly more than the other.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:44:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Gadsden1776:
Reading that letter is very reassuring that at minimum, congress understands and gets the facts and details of this problem. They hit the important issues on the head, unlike all the idiots that have been on TV talking about this. Who knows what will happen, but it's a good start.
View Quote


Right, it is a good letter.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:44:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 4:57:18 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Gadsden1776:


That's the attitude!


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Originally Posted By Gadsden1776:
Originally Posted By JellyBelly:
They're sending it to the ATF, which makes this document some VERY expensive toilet paper.


That's the attitude!




How well did all them UN resolutions work to stop Saddam?

It took violence to put an end to his weapons programs.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 5:01:52 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By America-first:
In before some lib- tard chimes in to claim that the Republican and the Democratic Parties are entirely the same.
View Quote

The Rethuglicans are gun grabbing statists. And they hate liberty™
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 5:02:46 PM EDT
Thought the ATF s fax machine was broken lol they'll say they never got it...or your letter is still pending
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 5:21:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By America-first:
In before some lib- tard chimes in to claim that the Republican and the Democratic Parties are entirely the same.
View Quote

So the republican controlled House and Senate didn't just fund Obama's immigration policy?
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 5:26:19 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By America-first:
In before some lib- tard chimes in to claim that the Republican and the Democratic Parties are entirely the same.
View Quote


You are sorely mistaken if you think the Republican Party is a champion of freedom.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 5:39:29 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Gadsden1776:


That's the attitude!


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Originally Posted By Gadsden1776:
Originally Posted By JellyBelly:
They're sending it to the ATF, which makes this document some VERY expensive toilet paper.


That's the attitude!



I hope the ATF gets a paper cut that gets infected.

Better?
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 5:42:13 PM EDT
In to see where this goes.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 6:32:48 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By America-first:
In before some lib- tard chimes in to claim that the Republican and the Democratic Parties are entirely the same.
View Quote


Hey now, every member of the Libretardian Party serving in Congress signed this letter!
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 6:38:01 PM EDT
Why don't they just pass a bill specifically exempting M855?
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 6:41:14 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tstorms:
Why don't they just pass a bill specifically exempting M855?
View Quote

Veto
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 6:45:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 6:53:34 PM EDT
That makes too much sense

Why didnt the ATF get punished when they sold guns to drug cartels?

I may be wrong, but name the last good thing congress has done lately??
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tstorms:
Why don't they just pass a bill specifically exempting M855?
View Quote

Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:21:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2015 7:46:08 PM EDT by America-first]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BigPony:


Slight differences. One likes to grow gvt and spend wildly slightly more than the other.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BigPony:
Originally Posted By America-first:
In before some lib- tard chimes in to claim that the Republican and the Democratic Parties are entirely the same.


Slight differences. One likes to grow gvt and spend wildly slightly more than the other.




No....... big differences actually, but it depends on one's priorities.

One is the only thing that stands against the Democratic Party's continuous attempts to snatch our gun rights; and the other stands for homosexual "marriage" and gun control.




Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:25:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JellyBelly:

Veto
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Originally Posted By JellyBelly:
Originally Posted By tstorms:
Why don't they just pass a bill specifically exempting M855?

Veto


This, plus they have to get it past the Senate, which is a lot more Dem-heavy, and then there are some of the wobblier Republicans, who might vote against it for fear of being painted as "voting to keep cop-killing bullets legal" come next election.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:26:41 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:

So the republican controlled House and Senate didn't just fund Obama's immigration policy?
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Originally Posted By DragoMuseveni:
Originally Posted By America-first:
In before some lib- tard chimes in to claim that the Republican and the Democratic Parties are entirely the same.

So the republican controlled House and Senate didn't just fund Obama's immigration policy?


What the fuck is it with YOU PEOPLE and posting these sorts of idiotic non-sequiturs?

This is a gun rights thread and not an immigration thread; God forbid the Republicans in Congress are successful in rolling back the ATFs/Obama's blatant assault on our gun rights in the form of a ban on M855 and SS109.

YOU PEOPLE will piss blood.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:33:49 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 556_Chowder:


You are sorely mistaken if you think the Republican Party is a champion of freedom.
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Originally Posted By 556_Chowder:
Originally Posted By America-first:
In before some lib- tard chimes in to claim that the Republican and the Democratic Parties are entirely the same.


You are sorely mistaken if you think the Republican Party is a champion of freedom.


No I'm not because I don't.

But you are sorely mistaken if you believe the mouthy libertarians can do dick-squat on behalf of gun rights since they hold no notable elected public office; let alone a single seat in either the House or Senate.

The official seal of the libertarian party:





And their slogan:

YAKITY YAK.............
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:40:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By JellyBelly:

Veto
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Originally Posted By JellyBelly:
Originally Posted By tstorms:
Why don't they just pass a bill specifically exempting M855?

Veto


Include it with the debt ceiling bill.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:44:31 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Osirus23:


Hey now, every member of the Libretardian Party serving in Congress signed this letter!
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Originally Posted By Osirus23:
Originally Posted By America-first:
In before some lib- tard chimes in to claim that the Republican and the Democratic Parties are entirely the same.


Hey now, every member of the Libretardian Party serving in Congress signed this letter!


Although there isn't a single one of them in any elected office worth spit; the dedicated libertarians here are certainly doing their part on this gun enthusiasts' website to battle the latest Democratic party gun control initiatives; by pissing on the Republican's efforts.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:45:34 PM EDT
Reasonable restrictions and sporting purposes are both failures when describing rights.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:48:55 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:


Include it with the debt ceiling bill.
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
Originally Posted By JellyBelly:
Originally Posted By tstorms:
Why don't they just pass a bill specifically exempting M855?

Veto


Include it with the debt ceiling bill.






Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:51:00 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Tango7:


As I posted in The OFFICIAL ATF Gunwalker thread, the biggest problems I have with the agency (that show how out of control they are):

While IL Statute allows "the Fire Chief or his designee" to investigate fires, I cannot bill myself as an "Investigator" unless I have completed a certain number of State certified courses successfully, and if I go to court my credentials can become a matter of consideration.

However, at the ATF, a "firearms expert" is a title, not a description of job expertise, training, knowledge or experience, yet the Fed Courts accept the title as the same thing from someone with no training whatsoever as someone with expert knowledge of firearms design, construction and operation developed through years of experience and/or education.



As a LE investigator the procedure and methodology I use conducting my investigations is subject to the Daubert and/or Frye standards, just as the work of every other "professional" is, as well as the generic concept of the "Scientific method", that is, another individual given the same knowledge, experience, tools, evidence and data should be able to reach similar results.

Except the ATF. They don't need to prove their methodology, state the methods by which they obtained their results, or show consistency from Case #1 to Case #87. They can say "this is a device that allows the firing of more than one round at a time from a firearm, therefore is meets the definition of a machine gun" and point to a shoelace and be correct within the construct of their own sterile existence. They can also modify the conditions of examination until a desired result is achieved, whether or not the defendant was operating under those same conditions or not.


There are decades of reliance on Case Law and Stare Decisis, so folks looking at the facts of a case have previous decisions upon which to base their opinions and actions. I cannot present a case to a DA for Aggravated Arson if it does not meet the appropriate elements of the Statute.

Except the ATF. If Examiner A tells you "It's Okay" on January 1st, there's no recourse if Examiner B suddenly decides your hi-tops are DD's on March 1st.

As an Investigator I conduct an investigation, review the case and make recommendations to the DA for prosecution, using rules, codified as Statutes or Ordinances, that were constructed by the legislative branch. I can be called as a witness but the actual prosecution is conducted by an outside agency.

The ATF, operating under US Code written by the Legislative Branch, also has the ability to offer interpretations of the Code that go beyond it, and bear the full force of law; they conduct the investigation and are a party involved in the active prosecution, with no separation between rulemaking, investigation and prosecution.
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Originally Posted By Tango7:
Originally Posted By 1fromtx:
I hate that agencies can make laws that I can be charged a criminal offense for.

Thought we had elected officials we put in office for this.
Create the laws that it's voters wanted.


Hated them giving the ATF the authority to do this.

That's like putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

They pick and chose what laws to make and enforce.

Just like Eric Holder and his Justice Department.Just blatantly defy Congress.


As I posted in The OFFICIAL ATF Gunwalker thread, the biggest problems I have with the agency (that show how out of control they are):

While IL Statute allows "the Fire Chief or his designee" to investigate fires, I cannot bill myself as an "Investigator" unless I have completed a certain number of State certified courses successfully, and if I go to court my credentials can become a matter of consideration.

However, at the ATF, a "firearms expert" is a title, not a description of job expertise, training, knowledge or experience, yet the Fed Courts accept the title as the same thing from someone with no training whatsoever as someone with expert knowledge of firearms design, construction and operation developed through years of experience and/or education.



As a LE investigator the procedure and methodology I use conducting my investigations is subject to the Daubert and/or Frye standards, just as the work of every other "professional" is, as well as the generic concept of the "Scientific method", that is, another individual given the same knowledge, experience, tools, evidence and data should be able to reach similar results.

Except the ATF. They don't need to prove their methodology, state the methods by which they obtained their results, or show consistency from Case #1 to Case #87. They can say "this is a device that allows the firing of more than one round at a time from a firearm, therefore is meets the definition of a machine gun" and point to a shoelace and be correct within the construct of their own sterile existence. They can also modify the conditions of examination until a desired result is achieved, whether or not the defendant was operating under those same conditions or not.


There are decades of reliance on Case Law and Stare Decisis, so folks looking at the facts of a case have previous decisions upon which to base their opinions and actions. I cannot present a case to a DA for Aggravated Arson if it does not meet the appropriate elements of the Statute.

Except the ATF. If Examiner A tells you "It's Okay" on January 1st, there's no recourse if Examiner B suddenly decides your hi-tops are DD's on March 1st.

As an Investigator I conduct an investigation, review the case and make recommendations to the DA for prosecution, using rules, codified as Statutes or Ordinances, that were constructed by the legislative branch. I can be called as a witness but the actual prosecution is conducted by an outside agency.

The ATF, operating under US Code written by the Legislative Branch, also has the ability to offer interpretations of the Code that go beyond it, and bear the full force of law; they conduct the investigation and are a party involved in the active prosecution, with no separation between rulemaking, investigation and prosecution.

I like this post.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:53:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BigPony:
ATF will tell Congress to pick up their cans
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Not really. The ATF understands that Congress has power over their budget, and the only thing standing between them and a "downsizing" of their agency is Barack Obama.

This is like a line in the sand. Now Congress might not be able to make it stick until after Obama is gone and a Republican is in office, but having a clear majority of Congressmen send you a letter they don't like what you are doing is going to give them some pause right now.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:55:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:55:23 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By tstorms:
Why don't they just pass a bill specifically exempting M855?
View Quote

They probably will. The problem is, 237 votes isn't enough to override a veto, so won't be able to pass a free-standing bill. Instead, they will have to attach it to a bill that Obama really wants to sign -- much as they did with the law overturning concealed carry in National Parks.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:56:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:


Include it with the debt ceiling bill.
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
Originally Posted By JellyBelly:
Originally Posted By tstorms:
Why don't they just pass a bill specifically exempting M855?

Veto


Include it with the debt ceiling bill.

Yep, this is the best strategy.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 7:56:23 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By R_Steel:
It that sense yes, broadly understood about what is being said, for sporting use for 'sporting purposes,' and what you touched on for self-defense being left out. And they could have or should have included the actual intent of the 2nd Amendment.
View Quote
Shooting certain people in the face that are trying to take our rights away by force.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 8:00:06 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:


Include it with the debt ceiling bill.
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
Originally Posted By JellyBelly:
Originally Posted By tstorms:
Why don't they just pass a bill specifically exempting M855?

Veto


Include it with the debt ceiling bill.



So when the "R"s' cave in on that too like they did on immigration, we'll be right back to square one.

Link Posted: 3/8/2015 8:03:36 PM EDT
I'm glad to see that they made an effort but I don't think it will make a difference.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 8:45:58 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By nukldragr:

The Rethuglicans are gun grabbing statists. And they hate liberty™
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Originally Posted By nukldragr:
Originally Posted By America-first:
In before some lib- tard chimes in to claim that the Republican and the Democratic Parties are entirely the same.

The Rethuglicans are gun grabbing statists. And they hate liberty™


Just imagine the reactions here if the Republicans succeed in rolling back the ATF.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 8:51:31 PM EDT
I'm surprised how accurate that letter is
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 8:53:19 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:


Include it with the debt ceiling bill.
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
Originally Posted By JellyBelly:
Originally Posted By tstorms:
Why don't they just pass a bill specifically exempting M855?

Veto


Include it with the debt ceiling bill.
Yep. Imagination is what Boner and that turtle-faced fuck from Kain-tuck are completely lacking.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 8:57:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2015 8:58:53 PM EDT by Got_Nukes]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JellyBelly:

Veto
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Originally Posted By JellyBelly:
Originally Posted By tstorms:
Why don't they just pass a bill specifically exempting M855?

Veto


Make it part of the debt ceiling increase that will happen in a few days.

ETA: Should have read the entire thread first,
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 9:03:46 PM EDT
Surprisingly well written letter.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 9:09:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/8/2015 9:10:13 PM EDT by Dana1972]
Where in the fuck does the 2nd Amendment specify "Sporting purposes" as the reason for our right to keep and bear arms? Fuck these communist bastards.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 9:10:52 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Number0neGun:
Surprisingly well written letter.
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NRA probably wrote it
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 9:21:07 PM EDT
And, this letter will have precisely ZERO impact on the ban. Both the House and the Senate have already made their decision on this ban by virtue of not including a prohibition on the BATFE in the DHS bill, something which could have easily been done, something that both chambers would have voted for, and something that Odumbo would have signed because he needs his brown shirts.

As to whether there will be a rider to the debt ceiling bill, nope. Republican "leadership" doesn't have the spine for a fight. At. All. So disappointing considering the incredible victory they were handed by the voters just a few short months ago that they seem intent on ignoring.
Link Posted: 3/8/2015 9:25:31 PM EDT
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