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Posted: 10/8/2008 2:39:05 PM EDT
Has anyone else read this?  I'm rereading it now and it still amazes me the way it goes in the direction it does...
Link Posted: 10/8/2008 2:40:21 PM EDT
[#1]
Pretty good companion piece to The Silmarillion


Quoted:
Has anyone else read this?  I'm rereading it now and it still amazes me the way it goes in the direction it does...
Link Posted: 10/8/2008 2:46:21 PM EDT
[#2]

Quoted:
Has anyone else read this?  I'm rereading it now and it still amazes me the way it goes in the direction it does...


Pretty brutal huh... dark, no happy endings there.
Link Posted: 10/8/2008 4:41:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Tolkien had a dark view of the course of human history for several reasons. One was personal - he saw good friends of his die on the western front in WW1. The other was a Catholic world view that reads the biblical account of Revelation and sees that the ultimate victory doesn't come about because the forces of good in this world eventually beat the evil forces, but because God has mercy on his people and comes in the end to rescue us from what appears to be a completely lost cause.

It's also a type of Nordic stoicism/heroics that says "yes, we're going to lose the battle tomorrow, but we're going to fight it anyway because we're the good guys and they're the bad guys and good guys don't surrender or flee in the face of evil."

The men in his universe are thus confronted with two choices: to trust Eru (God) and an unknown destiny for their souls "beyond the circles of this world" - a leap of faith, sight unseen - or capitulate and become slaves to the evil Melkor and his minions for the sake of squeezing out a bit more life in THIS world as slaves or wraiths. It's obvious that for him, it takes far greater courage and thus is far more virtuous to take the path of righteousness that may very well lead to death but death with honor than to seek the easy and broad path of 'peace' at the cost of honor, freedom, and virtue.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church we believe that the end will come when Christ returns in victory - his is the triumph, his the victory. We have only to be faithful to our calling from Him - our job is fidelity, not victory.

So while Catholics may very well join in the wars (hot or cultural) in this world, the kingdom we seek is not of this world but will come down as a gift of God.

In Tolkien he has the gods 'lords of the West' coming in over the horizon to rescue Middle Earth from Melkor's iron grip in a sudden and unexpected fashion. So it'll be at the end times - when evil appears to triumph and many good people fall away out of despair that evil will reign forever supreme over a prostrate ruin or corpse of "the good".

Link Posted: 10/8/2008 8:42:54 PM EDT
[#4]
good info...thanks!
Link Posted: 10/8/2008 8:44:24 PM EDT
[#5]
Tag
Link Posted: 10/8/2008 8:48:54 PM EDT
[#6]
BTW, this would be a good place to recommend this:



http://www.amazon.com/Blade-Itself-First-Law-Book/dp/159102594X

1/2 through the 2nd book and they are great.  Can't recommend it enough.

Link Posted: 10/8/2008 8:52:53 PM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:
Tolkien had a dark view of the course of human history for several reasons. One was personal - he saw good friends of his die on the western front in WW1. The other was a Catholic world view that reads the biblical account of Revelation and sees that the ultimate victory doesn't come about because the forces of good in this world eventually beat the evil forces, but because God has mercy on his people and comes in the end to rescue us from what appears to be a completely lost cause.

It's also a type of Nordic stoicism/heroics that says "yes, we're going to lose the battle tomorrow, but we're going to fight it anyway because we're the good guys and they're the bad guys and good guys don't surrender or flee in the face of evil."

The men in his universe are thus confronted with two choices: to trust Eru (God) and an unknown destiny for their souls "beyond the circles of this world" - a leap of faith, sight unseen - or capitulate and become slaves to the evil Melkor and his minions for the sake of squeezing out a bit more life in THIS world as slaves or wraiths. It's obvious that for him, it takes far greater courage and thus is far more virtuous to take the path of righteousness that may very well lead to death but death with honor than to seek the easy and broad path of 'peace' at the cost of honor, freedom, and virtue.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church we believe that the end will come when Christ returns in victory - his is the triumph, his the victory. We have only to be faithful to our calling from Him - our job is fidelity, not victory.

So while Catholics may very well join in the wars (hot or cultural) in this world, the kingdom we seek is not of this world but will come down as a gift of God.

In Tolkien he has the gods 'lords of the West' coming in over the horizon to rescue Middle Earth from Melkor's iron grip in a sudden and unexpected fashion. So it'll be at the end times - when evil appears to triumph and many good people fall away out of despair that evil will reign forever supreme over a prostrate ruin or corpse of "the good".



Huge +1... but, until He shows up, the part in blue is a good philosophy.
Matt
Link Posted: 10/8/2008 9:02:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Awesome, yet extremely dark story.
Link Posted: 10/8/2008 9:12:15 PM EDT
[#9]
DAY SHALL COME AGAIN!

Link Posted: 10/10/2008 4:10:39 AM EDT
[#10]
so what would go better after reading this?  LotR or The Silmarillion?
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 4:17:05 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:
so what would go better after reading this?  LotR or The Silmarillion?


Have you read LotR?  I would read the Silmarillion before reading the Children of Hurin, and then read LotR last.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 4:22:12 AM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 4:23:16 AM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
so what would go better after reading this?  LotR or The Silmarillion?


Have you read LotR?  I would read the Silmarillion before reading the Children of Hurin, and then read LotR last.


yeah, i've read them all.  never made it all the way through the silmarillion though
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 4:47:45 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Tolkien had a dark view of the course of human history for several reasons. One was personal - he saw good friends of his die on the western front in WW1. The other was a Catholic world view that reads the biblical account of Revelation and sees that the ultimate victory doesn't come about because the forces of good in this world eventually beat the evil forces, but because God has mercy on his people and comes in the end to rescue us from what appears to be a completely lost cause.

It's also a type of Nordic stoicism/heroics that says "yes, we're going to lose the battle tomorrow, but we're going to fight it anyway because we're the good guys and they're the bad guys and good guys don't surrender or flee in the face of evil."
The men in his universe are thus confronted with two choices: to trust Eru (God) and an unknown destiny for their souls "beyond the circles of this world" - a leap of faith, sight unseen - or capitulate and become slaves to the evil Melkor and his minions for the sake of squeezing out a bit more life in THIS world as slaves or wraiths. It's obvious that for him, it takes far greater courage and thus is far more virtuous to take the path of righteousness that may very well lead to death but death with honor than to seek the easy and broad path of 'peace' at the cost of honor, freedom, and virtue.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church we believe that the end will come when Christ returns in victory - his is the triumph, his the victory. We have only to be faithful to our calling from Him - our job is fidelity, not victory.

So while Catholics may very well join in the wars (hot or cultural) in this world, the kingdom we seek is not of this world but will come down as a gift of God.

In Tolkien he has the gods 'lords of the West' coming in over the horizon to rescue Middle Earth from Melkor's iron grip in a sudden and unexpected fashion. So it'll be at the end times - when evil appears to triumph and many good people fall away out of despair that evil will reign forever supreme over a prostrate ruin or corpse of "the good".

Big +1...AMEN, may His Spirit give us strength!
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 7:08:33 AM EDT
[#15]

Quoted:
I don't think I ever got past the first chapter of the Silmarrilon, that was like an elvish version of the old testament.


First two chapters are very dry.  But when you get into the actual plot it far, far exceeds LotR.  
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 7:14:51 AM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I don't think I ever got past the first chapter of the Silmarrilon, that was like an elvish version of the old testament.


First two chapters are very dry.  But when you get into the actual plot it far, far exceeds LotR.  


I bought the audiobook. After the third failed attempt of reading the book, I just bit the bullet and spent the cash. It is a very good read (listen).
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 7:24:09 AM EDT
[#17]
I love the epic scale of the Silmarillion.  Any one of the ancient high kings of the Noldor would have bitch slapped Sauron with ease.  Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon - no army in the third age could have stood up to one of the old Noldor armies.  I also love that the Silmarillion is basically a Greek tragedy.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 7:25:29 AM EDT
[#18]
Tagscription, need to buy a couple more books it appears!
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 7:32:07 AM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:
I love the epic scale of the Silmarillion.  Any one of the ancient high kings of the Noldor would have bitch slapped Sauron with ease.  Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon - no army in the third age could have stood up to one of the old Noldor armies.  I also love that the Silmarillion is basically a Greek tragedy.




I bow in deference to your superiour nerditude.

Link Posted: 10/10/2008 7:47:52 AM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
so what would go better after reading this?  LotR or The Silmarillion?


Have you read LotR?  I would read the Silmarillion before reading the Children of Hurin, and then read LotR last.


In order:  The Hobbit, LOTR (including appendices), Silmarillion, other assorted published works.  
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 7:51:15 AM EDT
[#21]
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 1:55:22 PM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:
I love the epic scale of the Silmarillion.  Any one of the ancient high kings of the Noldor would have bitch slapped Sauron with ease.  Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon - no army in the third age could have stood up to one of the old Noldor armies.  I also love that the Silmarillion is basically a Greek tragedy.


+1

Also, when the Numenoreans came to Middle Earth in the 2nd age their power was so great that Sauron was humbled by them without a fight.  Too bad he was able to corrupt them from within.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 1:57:18 PM EDT
[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I love the epic scale of the Silmarillion.  Any one of the ancient high kings of the Noldor would have bitch slapped Sauron with ease.  Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon - no army in the third age could have stood up to one of the old Noldor armies.  I also love that the Silmarillion is basically a Greek tragedy.


+1

Also, when the Numenoreans came to Middle Earth in the 2nd age their power was so great that Sauron was humbled by them without a fight.  Too bad he was able to corrupt them from within.


He promised hope and change.  
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 1:57:45 PM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:
so what would go better after reading this?  LotR or The Silmarillion?


If you haven't read LOTR trilogy, then read it first.  Then The Silmarillion.

I can't hardly believe you started with "Children of Hurin".  Great story though, just a weird order...
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 1:58:59 PM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:
I don't think I ever got past the first chapter of the Silmarrilon, that was like an elvish version of the old testament.


I really enjoyed it.  The book gets better with Quenta Silmarillion, and then again in The Akallabeth.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 1:59:28 PM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:
I don't think I ever got past the first chapter of the Silmarrilon, that was like an elvish version of the old testament.



same here...the book is somewhat "verbose"
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 2:03:21 PM EDT
[#27]
The chapter of the Silmarillion concerning the War of Wrath was an excellent one
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 2:05:32 PM EDT
[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I love the epic scale of the Silmarillion.  Any one of the ancient high kings of the Noldor would have bitch slapped Sauron with ease.  Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon - no army in the third age could have stood up to one of the old Noldor armies.  I also love that the Silmarillion is basically a Greek tragedy.


+1

Also, when the Numenoreans came to Middle Earth in the 2nd age their power was so great that Sauron was humbled by them without a fight.  Too bad he was able to corrupt them from within.


He promised hope and change.  




The Numenoreans were "Obama'd"
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 3:03:00 PM EDT
[#29]
The thing I like most about the LoTR, and the thing that most people miss, is that good doesn't win.

Evil defeats itself.

At least that's the way I took it.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 3:06:15 PM EDT
[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I love the epic scale of the Silmarillion.  Any one of the ancient high kings of the Noldor would have bitch slapped Sauron with ease.  Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon - no army in the third age could have stood up to one of the old Noldor armies.  I also love that the Silmarillion is basically a Greek tragedy.


+1

Also, when the Numenoreans came to Middle Earth in the 2nd age their power was so great that Sauron was humbled by them without a fight.  Too bad he was able to corrupt them from within.


He promised hope and change.  


So it's about Obama!  
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 3:11:04 PM EDT
[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I don't think I ever got past the first chapter of the Silmarrilon, that was like an elvish version of the old testament.


First two chapters are very dry.  But when you get into the actual plot it far, far exceeds LotR.  


I've had the same problem with it. Maybe I'll have to give it another try.

BTW, I had the same problem with The Hobbit too. When TLOTR movies came out I knew I wanted to read the books first, starting with Hobbit and forced myself thru the first 100 pages or so and then it moved right along.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 3:16:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Tolkien was truly a genius.  I can't really describe how good his books are.

Btw, Aimless, I had to read The Silmarillion a few times before I really enjoyed it. But now it is just as interesting as the others. Just a little different style.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 3:19:08 PM EDT
[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I don't think I ever got past the first chapter of the Silmarrilon, that was like an elvish version of the old testament.


First two chapters are very dry.  But when you get into the actual plot it far, far exceeds LotR.  


I've had the same problem with it. Maybe I'll have to give it another try.

BTW, I had the same problem with The Hobbit too. When TLOTR movies came out I knew I wanted to read the books first, starting with Hobbit and forced myself thru the first 100 pages or so and then it moved right along.


That's funny, since I could easily slide through The Hobbit, but failed when trying to read Silmarillion. I haven't tried to read it in years, and had to blow the dust off my copy, but with the way things are in the world, a little release through fantasy might just be a good thing.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 3:20:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Here is a tip.  The commercial version of the Simarillion has two short chapters in front of it which are actually different books which go into somewhat boring details of Tolkien's mythology (i.e. who the gods are, etc.).  The third book, Quenta Silmarillion can be read alone without reading the other books.  It has a very good story, and is written in a very high tone.  In many ways it is like reading a good history.  The chapters are glimpses into the important events of the great war between the High Elves (i.e. Elrond's forefathers) and Melkor (i.e. Satan.  Sauron's master).  
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 3:27:56 PM EDT
[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Tolkien had a dark view of the course of human history for several reasons. One was personal - he saw good friends of his die on the western front in WW1. The other was a Catholic world view that reads the biblical account of Revelation and sees that the ultimate victory doesn't come about because the forces of good in this world eventually beat the evil forces, but because God has mercy on his people and comes in the end to rescue us from what appears to be a completely lost cause.

It's also a type of Nordic stoicism/heroics that says "yes, we're going to lose the battle tomorrow, but we're going to fight it anyway because we're the good guys and they're the bad guys and good guys don't surrender or flee in the face of evil."

The men in his universe are thus confronted with two choices: to trust Eru (God) and an unknown destiny for their souls "beyond the circles of this world" - a leap of faith, sight unseen - or capitulate and become slaves to the evil Melkor and his minions for the sake of squeezing out a bit more life in THIS world as slaves or wraiths. It's obvious that for him, it takes far greater courage and thus is far more virtuous to take the path of righteousness that may very well lead to death but death with honor than to seek the easy and broad path of 'peace' at the cost of honor, freedom, and virtue.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church we believe that the end will come when Christ returns in victory - his is the triumph, his the victory. We have only to be faithful to our calling from Him - our job is fidelity, not victory.

So while Catholics may very well join in the wars (hot or cultural) in this world, the kingdom we seek is not of this world but will come down as a gift of God.

In Tolkien he has the gods 'lords of the West' coming in over the horizon to rescue Middle Earth from Melkor's iron grip in a sudden and unexpected fashion. So it'll be at the end times - when evil appears to triumph and many good people fall away out of despair that evil will reign forever supreme over a prostrate ruin or corpse of "the good".



Huge +1... but, until He shows up, the part in blue is a good philosophy.
Matt


The blue part sounds more than a little like the script pitch for "High Noon".

Even if no one else will help, someone has to kill Frank Miller dead
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 3:27:56 PM EDT
[#36]
Yep, I'd tried to read The Hobbit several times, like 4 or 5, but could never get into it. Like I said I forced myself to read it and somewhere around the 100 page mark things picked up and away I went. Had absolutely no problem getting into the LOTR books. They took off right from the get go.

So I tried The Silmarrilon once and found it like Aimless described it. And worse than trying to get into The Hobbit. Guess I'll have to force myself into it this winter.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 3:36:19 PM EDT
[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
so what would go better after reading this?  LotR or The Silmarillion?


If you haven't read LOTR trilogy, then read it first.  Then The Silmarillion.

I can't hardly believe you started with "Children of Hurin".  Great story though, just a weird order...


no, i've read them all starting with The Hobbit in 7th grade English
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 3:44:16 PM EDT
[#38]
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 3:46:12 PM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
so what would go better after reading this?  LotR or The Silmarillion?


If you haven't read LOTR trilogy, then read it first.  Then The Silmarillion.

I can't hardly believe you started with "Children of Hurin".  Great story though, just a weird order...


no, i've read them all starting with The Hobbit in 7th grade English


OK, I guess I am just a little confused about why it matters then.  
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 4:49:54 PM EDT
[#40]

Quoted:
I love the epic scale of the Silmarillion.  Any one of the ancient high kings of the Noldor would have bitch slapped Sauron with ease.  Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon - no army in the third age could have stood up to one of the old Noldor armies.  I also love that the Silmarillion is basically a Greek tragedy.



Uhhh, yeah, I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you there... Finrod Felagund, perhaps the greatest of the Noldor - purest in spirit, loyal in deed, one of the strongest in battle - went head to head with Sauron after he was captured along with Beren on the quest for the Silmaril.  Finrod fell before Sauron's sorcery and was imprisoned on Tol in Gaurhoth, Isle of the Werewolves.  Then he was eaten by a werewolf in the dungeon while defending Beren, after all of his men were similarly dispatched.  

Maybe since Sauron had been separated from his Ring in the Third Age, Finrod or one of the other great Noldor could have taken him.  Certainly their armies would have whomped on Sauron's army.  But one on one?  Galadriel was every bit as powerful as any of the Noldorin royalty - actually, she IS Noldorin royalty: sister of Finrod and niece to Feanor - and she was certainly afraid of Sauron.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 4:51:09 PM EDT
[#41]
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 4:57:40 PM EDT
[#42]

Quoted:
Dude, what are you doing here?  Turin killed your ass by mistake in the book!  You can't talk in this thread!  Get back to the Halls of Mandos and shut your pie hole


Halls of Mandos got high speed internet last week.  It flippin' rocks.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 5:01:29 PM EDT
[#43]
Of the Middle Earth books, only The Hobbit and LotR were written by Tolkien and taken to publication.

The Sillmarrillion was taken from notes and scribbles by his son Christopher.  It is actually the beginnings of several books that Tolkien sadly never managed to complete.  

I read somewhere that he had a religious conversion late in life, and felt it was immoral to write about his fantasy world with its alternative theology.  I'm not sure of the details of that, but it's kinda sad that it diverted him from further writings on Middle Earth.

The Children of Hurin tale was one of the more well rounded out tales that Tolkien had started. A great synopsis of it is included in the Silmarillion. Christopher Tolkien actually did most of the heavy lifting in getting it finished and published.

With that said, I love the tale too, but have not managed to get through the first couple chapters of the novel either.

I think the most difficult aspect of a lot of the ME stories is they encompass thousands of years, which is difficult for us humans to relate to and even more difficult to spin into a novel.
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 5:01:44 PM EDT
[#44]
I read it...'bout killed me though-that shit is boooooring



Quoted:

Quoted:
Tolkien had a dark view of the course of human history for several reasons. One was personal - he saw good friends of his die on the western front in WW1. The other was a Catholic world view that reads the biblical account of Revelation and sees that the ultimate victory doesn't come about because the forces of good in this world eventually beat the evil forces, but because God has mercy on his people and comes in the end to rescue us from what appears to be a completely lost cause.

It's also a type of Nordic stoicism/heroics that says "yes, we're going to lose the battle tomorrow, but we're going to fight it anyway because we're the good guys and they're the bad guys and good guys don't surrender or flee in the face of evil."

The men in his universe are thus confronted with two choices: to trust Eru (God) and an unknown destiny for their souls "beyond the circles of this world" - a leap of faith, sight unseen - or capitulate and become slaves to the evil Melkor and his minions for the sake of squeezing out a bit more life in THIS world as slaves or wraiths. It's obvious that for him, it takes far greater courage and thus is far more virtuous to take the path of righteousness that may very well lead to death but death with honor than to seek the easy and broad path of 'peace' at the cost of honor, freedom, and virtue.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church we believe that the end will come when Christ returns in victory - his is the triumph, his the victory. We have only to be faithful to our calling from Him - our job is fidelity, not victory.

So while Catholics may very well join in the wars (hot or cultural) in this world, the kingdom we seek is not of this world but will come down as a gift of God.

In Tolkien he has the gods 'lords of the West' coming in over the horizon to rescue Middle Earth from Melkor's iron grip in a sudden and unexpected fashion. So it'll be at the end times - when evil appears to triumph and many good people fall away out of despair that evil will reign forever supreme over a prostrate ruin or corpse of "the good".



Huge +1... but, until He shows up, the part in blue is a good philosophy.
Matt


I have a saying I made up that I live by: "Better to die on your feet being free then to die on your knees as a dog"
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 5:03:54 PM EDT
[#45]
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 5:05:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Double tap... sorry
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 5:07:08 PM EDT
[#47]
I like Tolkien's works so well I actually read them when I am feeling lonely or depressed.  It's like having a good friend talk to you... Know what I mean?

I think I've read LOTR at least 30 times, and the Hobbit probably more.

Calvin and Hobbes books also are good for a smile on a gloomy day.  lol

Link Posted: 10/10/2008 5:10:16 PM EDT
[#48]
BTW while I liked the whole Ring thing Tolkin isn't my favorite writer....that title goes to H.P. Lovecraft

ALL HAIL CTHULHU!!!!
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 5:11:38 PM EDT
[#49]
Another excellent Tolkien snippet from The Fellowship of the Ring:

"I wish it need not have happened in my time", said Frodo.

"So do I", said Gandalf "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

Gandalf's way of saying quitcher bitchin and do something about your problems!
Link Posted: 10/10/2008 5:24:50 PM EDT
[#50]

Quoted:
I like Tolkien's works so well I actually read them when I am feeling lonely or depressed.  It's like having a good friend talk to you... Know what I mean?

I think I've read LOTR at least 30 times, and the Hobbit probably more.

Calvin and Hobbes books also are good for a smile on a gloomy day.  lol



I know what you mean, although I don't think I've read them that many times. I re-read them and my favorite Stephen Hunter books every two to three years.
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