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Posted: 9/19/2005 8:16:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 8:17:08 AM EDT by Old_Painless]
I posted this shoot several years back, and Deimos just posted it on the site.

For those that might like to see it, look here:

www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot17.htm

And shooting stuff is still fun.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:20:57 AM EDT
Nice!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:21:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 8:23:46 AM EDT by MiG-21]
Wow, I'm the first to respond to what will be a multi pager. I love the Box O Truth!

ETA: Beat to the punch.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:22:37 AM EDT
Learn something every day here.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:23:23 AM EDT
"Mighty Metal Door Slayer"

Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:25:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MiG-21:
Wow, I'm the first to respond to what will be a multi pager. I love the Box O Truth!

ETA: Beat to the punch.




Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:25:58 AM EDT
Thanks for sharing more useful info!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:26:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:30:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:32:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:
I could see why someone who had never seen a door like that taken apart might think it provided some protection, but the metal is a thin shell over the door, good work as always.



I can honestly say that I was surprised at how little resistance the metal door supplied.

It was of absolutely no use as cover.


I like the "sponsor" "Today's exciting episode brought to you by...."


The fine fellows at The Tactical Solution have been a great help supplying me with bandwidth and help with the site.

Go buy something from them.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:35:23 AM EDT
Excellent as usual Old_Painless!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:41:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:44:56 AM EDT
cool. Thanks for the report.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:45:49 AM EDT
Excellent again O_P
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 8:47:20 AM EDT
O_P

How thick was the metal on the doors???

And what was the filler on the inside of the door???
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:00:11 AM EDT
Future box-o-truth request: cinderblocks. This seems to be a popular house construction technqiue in the 3rd world shitholes where our boys wind up shooting people. I'm wondering what the penetration for .223 is, and if something like 7.62X39 penetrates better.

Basically, we're moving from shooting coolies in black pajamas in rural areas to guys in cars and houses in urban areas. Michael Yon in Mosul has reported that the .223 doesn't do very well there. I'm wondering what the performance of .223 is like. Extra bonus points for 6.8 SPC, but that's above and beyond the call.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:00:55 AM EDT
I'd love to see a solid wood door next. I'm getting a new front double door soon and want a good one. Thanks OP!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:02:16 AM EDT
Thanks OP...

Informative as always
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:07:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By zer04evr:
O_P

How thick was the metal on the doors???

And what was the filler on the inside of the door???



The door was a "standard" metal front door.

The metal is only a few millimeters thick. Looks solid, but doesn't hold up to gunfire.

The circumfrence of the door is built out of wood, with wood under the lock areas, and styrofoam filling in all the rest.

Didn't seem to matter if I shot the wood areas or the styrofoam areas. Bullets went through like a dose of Exlax.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:08:14 AM EDT
I wonder if a foam filled metal door or a metal door with wood core would stop more stuff.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:08:55 AM EDT
Very cool!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:11:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcgredo:
Future box-o-truth request: cinderblocks. This seems to be a popular house construction technqiue in the 3rd world shitholes where our boys wind up shooting people. I'm wondering what the penetration for .223 is, and if something like 7.62X39 penetrates better.

Basically, we're moving from shooting coolies in black pajamas in rural areas to guys in cars and houses in urban areas. Michael Yon in Mosul has reported that the .223 doesn't do very well there. I'm wondering what the performance of .223 is like. Extra bonus points for 6.8 SPC, but that's above and beyond the call.



We have considered cinderblocks, but there is a problem.

Part of the strength of cinderblock walls is the construction including the mortar that holds it all together.

I can't figure a way to build a wall, let it cure and dry, and then haul it to the range without a forklift.

I wish I had a private range.

I'd like to shoot both cinderblock and common brick walls to see what happens. I know from experience that you can "chew" through a wall with long strings of fire. But I wonder how many shots it takes.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:12:30 AM EDT
How about cinderblock with the cavities filled with sand?
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:15:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
How about cinderblock with the cavities filled with sand?



Well, I can tell you what 5 1/2 inches of sand will stop.

www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot7.htm

Just about any common round.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:15:26 AM EDT
Old_Painless, you rock!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:16:02 AM EDT
Neato. I always wondered how well the steel-clad solid-core door in our house would stand up to an assault. Now I know. And knowing is half the battle! *cue G.I. Joe theme music*

"What's the other half?"
"Killing those bleeding-heart fucking commie bastards."
"G.I. JOEEEEEEEEEEE!"
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:16:48 AM EDT
I was looking on the site and was reading about the Milsurplus ammo accuratcy test.
I think CMMG just proved that Xm193 will shoot pretty damn good.

"After barrel break in we fired this 3shot test group with XM193. Accuracy will depend heavily on the quality of 5.56 ammunition and shooters ability."

Thats at 100 yards.

After shooting the gun myself I would beleive it.
Out of the 20 or so shooters that shot it no one missed any of the 3 steel poppers at a hundred yards.
Any it used just a TA-01 for optics.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:30:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JBowles:
I was looking on the site and was reading about the Milsurplus ammo accuratcy test.
I think CMMG just proved that Xm193 will shoot pretty damn good.
cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/images/409.jpg
"After barrel break in we fired this 3shot test group with XM193. Accuracy will depend heavily on the quality of 5.56 ammunition and shooters ability."
208.16.99.27/cmmg_images/tbl_images/Photos/SST_TAC_GROUP.jpg
Thats at 100 yards.

After shooting the gun myself I would beleive it.
Out of the 20 or so shooters that shot it no one missed any of the 3 steel poppers at a hundred yards.
Any it used just a TA-01 for optics.



A really good rifle will indeed get the "best" out of military surplus ammo.

But I would offer that your "one" 3 shot group is not typical of what I've seen.

I shoot 5 shot groups. If you shoot a lot of them and measure average group size, I believe that the average 5 shot group will be larger than 1 MOA.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:33:15 AM EDT
I'm eager to see the test of solid wood doors. The door to our former garage (remodeled into two bedrooms, the front with a bay window) and our front door are solid-core wooden doors with steel cladding.

The brick wall and cinderblock wall tests look to be even more informative as I someday plan on building a home from cinderblocks filled with sand. It's fire resistant, in every sense of the term!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:46:17 AM EDT
love these posts, box-o-truth rules!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 9:55:40 AM EDT
Since it doesn't look like you tried a .38 special, I thought you might be interested in one that occurred at my house. Our own little garage o' truth.

Fortunately nobody was injured, and the guilty party has since taken some remedial training.

The bullet went through the back door, skimmed across the hood of the minivan until it hit a cross beam/support then deflected up into the ceiling. You can see how it must have been tumbling as it went through the ceiling. I never have found the bullet. It is up there under the floor boards somewhere.

Inside of the door:


Outside of the door:


The brand new minivan:


another view:


Garage Ceiling:


Attic floor:


Bottom of box:


Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:05:56 AM EDT
Moral: stay the hell out of the way of bullets.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:10:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By JBowles:
I was looking on the site and was reading about the Milsurplus ammo accuratcy test.
I think CMMG just proved that Xm193 will shoot pretty damn good.
cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/images/409.jpg
"After barrel break in we fired this 3shot test group with XM193. Accuracy will depend heavily on the quality of 5.56 ammunition and shooters ability."
208.16.99.27/cmmg_images/tbl_images/Photos/SST_TAC_GROUP.jpg
Thats at 100 yards.

After shooting the gun myself I would beleive it.
Out of the 20 or so shooters that shot it no one missed any of the 3 steel poppers at a hundred yards.
Any it used just a TA-01 for optics.



A really good rifle will indeed get the "best" out of military surplus ammo.

But I would offer that your "one" 3 shot group is not typical of what I've seen.

I shoot 5 shot groups. If you shoot a lot of them and measure average group size, I believe that the average 5 shot group will be larger than 1 MOA.




I would like to see some more shots as well.
3 shot groups really dont show much, but non the less thats pretty good shootin gun or they got very lucky shootin it.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:28:53 AM EDT
Great report!

I, too, would like to see a cinderblock report if it were possible. Other than that, how about typical house "exterior construction" - wood and brick veneer. Also, what about a bathtub?
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:48:07 AM EDT
What about a 3 inch thick door made out of some old iron. Too bad it would be crazy heavy.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:50:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mcgredo:
Future box-o-truth request: cinderblocks. This seems to be a popular house construction technqiue in the 3rd world shitholes where our boys wind up shooting people. I'm wondering what the penetration for .223 is, and if something like 7.62X39 penetrates better.

Basically, we're moving from shooting coolies in black pajamas in rural areas to guys in cars and houses in urban areas. Michael Yon in Mosul has reported that the .223 doesn't do very well there. I'm wondering what the performance of .223 is like. Extra bonus points for 6.8 SPC, but that's above and beyond the call.



I've seen articles from the '80s (Soldier of Fortune, if I recall correctly) that showed tests with cinderblock walls; .5.56 punched through the first layer, but didn't penetrate the other side. 7.62x39 and .308 punched through both sides and kept going. You COULD eventually get through both sides of a cinderblock with 5.56, but you're going to need successive hits in the same spot.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:53:30 AM EDT
Great, as always!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:56:53 AM EDT
O_P comes through again with fascinating information!

HH
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:57:58 AM EDT
I do so look forward to these tests!! Excellent!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 10:58:40 AM EDT
I love your site OP. Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 11:12:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By afman91201:
What about a 3 inch thick door made out of some old iron. Too bad it would be crazy heavy.



We have an iron plinker we use to shoot with pistols. The iron plates are an inch thick.

Handgun rounds just splatter against the plates; a round of .30-30 hollowpoint imbedded itself and bulged out the back, nearly penetrating, at a distance of about fifty yards.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 11:14:16 AM EDT
I once had an older book about combat shotgun use, and one chapter was tests of shotguns against various wall constructions, complete with pictures of the performance.

Included were standard wall board, the old style lathe and plaster, and others.
He also tested against standard house construction exterior walls, and brick and cinder block exterior walls.

The author's findings were, that NO interior wall would stop ANY buckshot, and in fact most interior furnishings like couches and TV sets wouldn't either.
His recommendation for battling bad guys with no innocents inside, was to just blaze away right through the walls.

As for exterior walls, the only construction that would stop buckshot or slugs was brick or cinder block.
Buckshot spalled against both but didn't "bust" the blocks or brick.
Slugs were flattened and badly deformed, and also didn't break the cinder blocks.

Bottom line on slugs and buckshot inside a dwelling: Watch your backstop, because it's going right through.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 11:22:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By birdbarian:
Since it doesn't look like you tried a .38 special, I thought you might be interested in one that occurred at my house. Our own little garage o' truth.

Fortunately nobody was injured, and the guilty party has since taken some remedial training.

The bullet went through the back door, skimmed across the hood of the minivan until it hit a cross beam/support then deflected up into the ceiling. You can see how it must have been tumbling as it went through the ceiling. I never have found the bullet. It is up there under the floor boards somewhere.

Inside of the door:
img242.imageshack.us/img242/786/sm1insidedoor1jk.jpg

Outside of the door:
img376.imageshack.us/img376/3374/sm2outsidedoor6zp.jpg

The brand new minivan:
img376.imageshack.us/img376/6606/sm3van10so.jpg

another view:
img376.imageshack.us/img376/6917/sm3van46tn.jpg

Garage Ceiling:
img376.imageshack.us/img376/4871/sm4ceiling12gs.jpg

Attic floor:
img376.imageshack.us/img376/2432/sm5attic19xd.jpg

Bottom of box:
img376.imageshack.us/img376/5184/sm6boxbottom1st.jpg




Looks like someone had a little too much fun at the New Years party.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 11:35:14 AM EDT
Do they make solid wood doors that would stop some of the smaller rounds?

these ones sound hollow, but my parents new home they're front door has no windows and is very heavy. (solid wood)?
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 11:44:28 AM EDT
Good stuff!!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 11:52:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By birdbarian:
Since it doesn't look like you tried a .38 special, I thought you might be interested in one that occurred at my house. Our own little garage o' truth.

Fortunately nobody was injured, and the guilty party has since taken some remedial training.

The bullet went through the back door, skimmed across the hood of the minivan until it hit a cross beam/support then deflected up into the ceiling. You can see how it must have been tumbling as it went through the ceiling. I never have found the bullet. It is up there under the floor boards somewhere.



Very interesting true-life "test".

I like my car way too much to try that one.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:15:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 3:13:36 PM EDT by Old_Painless]

Originally Posted By dfariswheel:

The author's findings were, that NO interior wall would stop ANY buckshot, and in fact most interior furnishings like couches and TV sets wouldn't either.
His recommendation for battling bad guys with no innocents inside, was to just blaze away right through the walls.




I appreciate the information, dfariswheel.

But, as I'm sure you are aware, that author's recommendation is wrong because it violates Rule #4.

Rule 4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT


We would never shoot through walls and furniture, without being certain what was behind the wall.

And, unless, like Superman, we have x-ray vision, we can't see through walls.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 12:42:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 12:42:58 PM EDT by Old_Painless]

Originally Posted By Luxan:
Do they make solid wood doors that would stop some of the smaller rounds?

these ones sound hollow, but my parents new home they're front door has no windows and is very heavy. (solid wood)?



I can't honestly say, as I haven't had a solid wood door to shoot.

But I have shot wood.

www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

That test was on 12 - 3/4 inch pine boards.

All center fire pistol rounds went through 8 or 9 boards and the .223 went through all 12 of them.

That means 9 inches of pine.

Maybe a hardwood door would be tougher, but I doubt it would stop most centerfire pistol rounds.

The Brown Truck of Happiness runs by here every day. If someone wants to ship me a hardwood door, I have the time and the ammo.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 1:32:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2005 1:32:31 PM EDT by Old_Painless]

Originally Posted By killingmachine123:
I love your site OP. Thanks.



Many thanks. Me too.

Deimos did a fantastic job on the site.
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 2:18:03 PM EDT
Old painless,

A comment if you don't mind. The pieces of metal that went through the door and into the wall were as you said an interesting find. It is known as secondary fragmentation. If you shoot through wood, pieces of wood will also get accelerated with a great deal of speed. At a demonstration of secondary fragmentation I attended at Quantico, the head of the Marine sniper school had one of his shooters put a round through a plywood wall, with an industrial size can of tomato soup on the other side. The following shot from the M16 sent fragments of wood through the metal side of the can. This is one reason why it is not good to lean against a wall when under fire. The secondary fragmentation can often times cause serious wounds in addition to the bullet wound.

Nice job again by the way as usual. And thanks for your work!
Link Posted: 9/19/2005 2:47:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
Old painless,

A comment if you don't mind. The pieces of metal that went through the door and into the wall were as you said an interesting find. It is known as secondary fragmentation. If you shoot through wood, pieces of wood will also get accelerated with a great deal of speed. At a demonstration of secondary fragmentation I attended at Quantico, the head of the Marine sniper school had one of his shooters put a round through a plywood wall, with an industrial size can of tomato soup on the other side. The following shot from the M16 sent fragments of wood through the metal side of the can. This is one reason why it is not good to lean against a wall when under fire. The secondary fragmentation can often times cause serious wounds in addition to the bullet wound.

Nice job again by the way as usual. And thanks for your work!



Very interesting comments, 2IDdoc.

When I was going through Medic school at Fort Sam back in, oh, around 1900 (), they warned us that there is another danger from secondary frags.

Metal bullet fragments show up on x-ray and can be removed. Wood, glass, etc, usually does not show up so well and can be left in a wound, causing problems with infection.

"Don't hug the wall", is good advice.
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