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Posted: 10/15/2004 8:03:06 AM EST
Hey All,

I'm relatively new to gun ownership and gun control history, but I just figured out something that has me baffled. Perhaps someone can explain it to me.

As I understand it, the Firearms Owners' Protection Act of May 1986 made it impossible for a civilians to purchase a newly manufactured machine gun. This ban has caused the prices of transferable pre-1986 machine guns to sky-rocket to the point of it being almost impossible for an average Joe to get an M-16. I haven't seen one listed for under 10k.

Passing this law in 1986 means that our beloved conservative President, Ronald Reagan, signed it into law, yes? What happened? Did someone have a gun to his head? Is this the single most damaging legislation to the 2nd Amendment ?

I just cannot believe that RR would have done this.

Am I missing something?

I've not posted this earlier out of respect for the late President, and other times I just avoided the subject because I know someone is going to call me a troll for speaking badly about RR. But this place is the only place I have to talk about gun stuff so I put it out there for conversation.

Am I wrong factually? Am I wrong in my interpretation of the significance of the law? Am I wrong to be surprised that RR would sign it into law?

John K.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:04:34 AM EST
IIRC, the DemonRATS played some funny business on the voice vote.
Republicans stood up shouting, the the DemonRAT speaker ignored them and shuffled the thing through.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:04:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 8:07:38 AM EST by photoman]
The MG ban was the only bad part of that law. The law also rolled back a bunch of the BS from the 68gun control act.

To me the 86MG ban is bigger BS than the AWB was, seeing that since 1936 only one legaly owned, registered, transferable, civilian ownable MG was used in a crime. It was commited in 1988 by a dayton oh police officer with his personally owned mac 11 in .380. There is no real basis for the ban on the making and selling of new MGs to us civilians.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:05:25 AM EST
The 1986 bill removed a bunch of nazi bullshit from the 1968 law. The libs tacked on the machine gun ban.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:05:47 AM EST
Although I could be wrong, this could have been a compromise. Remember that there were some pretty high profile shootings in the US during the '80s including the killing of John Lennon and Reagan's own assassination attempt. Gun grabbers wanted all out gun bans, registration of ammunition, etc. Reagan fought hard against them

Remember, Reagan was the first President ever endorsed by the NRA
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:06:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hullabaloo:
The 1986 bill removed a bunch of nazi bullshit from the 1968 law. The libs tacked on the machine gun ban.



And Ronnie signed it.

Bob
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:07:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 8:08:46 AM EST by five2one]

Originally Posted By Hullabaloo:
The 1986 bill removed a bunch of nazi bullshit from the 1968 law. The libs tacked on the machine gun ban.



Ok, I'll have to look up the 1968 law and see what was gained in the 1986 law. Overall, do you think it was worth it? Did what we gain outweigh what we lost?
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:10:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

Originally Posted By Hullabaloo:
The 1986 bill removed a bunch of nazi bullshit from the 1968 law. The libs tacked on the machine gun ban.



And Ronnie signed it.

Bob



So you'd be willing to give up everything won back by the FOPA so that MGs could be cheaper??? We can get 922(o) off the books, we just have to go after it like we did the AWB. After all it's even more of a baseless ban than the AWB was.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:12:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

Originally Posted By Hullabaloo:
The 1986 bill removed a bunch of nazi bullshit from the 1968 law. The libs tacked on the machine gun ban.



And Ronnie signed it.

Bob



So you'd be willing to give up everything won back by the FOPA so that MGs could be cheaper??? We can get 922(o) off the books, we just have to go after it like we did the AWB. After all it's even more of a baseless ban than the AWB was.



I did not say that. I said

"And Ronnie signed it. "

I did not say anything other than that. Obviously I am not happy about it, but do not put words in my mouth.

Bob
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:14:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 8:17:11 AM EST by DriftPunch]

Originally Posted By five2one:

Originally Posted By Hullabaloo:
The 1986 bill removed a bunch of nazi bullshit from the 1968 law. The libs tacked on the machine gun ban.



Ok, I'll have to look up the 1968 law and see what was gained in the 1986 law. Overall, do you think it was worth it? Did what we gain outweigh what we lost?



The highlights:
- military surplus would be allowed in again (we're talking Mausers, Enfields, ammo, etc...)
- Federal insulation against local laws for travelers (given some tight guidelines)
- FFL changes (A FFL once faced CRIMINAL charges for slight errors in bookkeepingg)

Yes it was worth it. It's VERY unfortunate that the MG db was closed, but without FOPA ammo would be very expensive, and you'd probably still have to sign for it.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:17:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:21:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 8:22:51 AM EST by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:23:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

Originally Posted By Hullabaloo:
The 1986 bill removed a bunch of nazi bullshit from the 1968 law. The libs tacked on the machine gun ban.



And Ronnie signed it.

Bob



So you'd be willing to give up everything won back by the FOPA so that MGs could be cheaper??? We can get 922(o) off the books, we just have to go after it like we did the AWB. After all it's even more of a baseless ban than the AWB was.



I did not say that. I said

"And Ronnie signed it. "

I did not say anything other than that. Obviously I am not happy about it, but do not put words in my mouth.

Bob



No words were put in your mouth, notice the question marks. It was a question.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:24:39 AM EST
I think he asked the NRA if they wanted him to sign it, and they said to go ahead. The ban was an amendment introduced in the last few minutes of the debate - a real sucker punch.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:24:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 8:27:22 AM EST by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:26:43 AM EST
Another thing the FOPA did was to make it legal to transport between stats legally-for instance if you were going from Rhode Island to New hampshire and had to go through Massachusetts, you would be legal as long as you aren't staying in Mass.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:33:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By five2one:

Originally Posted By Hullabaloo:
The 1986 bill removed a bunch of nazi bullshit from the 1968 law. The libs tacked on the machine gun ban.



Ok, I'll have to look up the 1968 law and see what was gained in the 1986 law. Overall, do you think it was worth it? Did what we gain outweigh what we lost?



NOTHING WAS GAINED. They still took away our legal rights. We may have gotten more back, but all of these laws still go against our BILL OF RIGHTS! Or maybe you guys that say, it's ok, haven't heard of that yet.

Our gun laws are nothing but a bunch of control measures over the serfs. Wake up!
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 8:33:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By Ky_Bob:

Originally Posted By Hullabaloo:
The 1986 bill removed a bunch of nazi bullshit from the 1968 law. The libs tacked on the machine gun ban.



And Ronnie signed it.

Bob



So you'd be willing to give up everything won back by the FOPA so that MGs could be cheaper??? We can get 922(o) off the books, we just have to go after it like we did the AWB. After all it's even more of a baseless ban than the AWB was.



I did not say that. I said

"And Ronnie signed it. "

I did not say anything other than that. Obviously I am not happy about it, but do not put words in my mouth.

Bob



No words were put in your mouth, notice the question marks. It was a question.



You are right, sorry.
Bob
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:03:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 9:10:17 AM EST by drfcolt]
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:

look harder. they still can be had for $6,500-8000. money talks and bullshit walks. flash that cash and you may be surprised at the final figure. in a nutshell, though, you are correct. the finite supply in an ever-increasing market has driven prices up rapidly.

think of the ammunition you could buy for the price difference between a $23,000 mg42 and a $500 one.


Do you actually know of anyone buying an M16 (factory, factory reweld, RR, RDIAS) for $6.5K-$8K recently?

Do you actually know of anyone buying an MG42 (original or reweld) for $23K recently?

I have some money that really want's to talk with some of these sellers.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:07:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 9:08:35 AM EST by drfcolt]
Double tap - ignore
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:17:47 AM EST
The NRA told him to sign it, saying that they would fight the machine gun ban in the courts. They got nowhere.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:22:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 9:34:51 AM EST by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:23:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 9:27:25 AM EST by johnnyrebel]
yes it is sad on the 86 ban i think it does need to be repealled anything that makes the cost of a mac 11 go from 300 to 1700+ sounds illegal

and my uncle bought a rdias for 5700 plus the taxes both ways last month.......the damn bastard


campy bob you just about made me go get a loan until i found out that was a pre 86 dealer sample
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:27:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 9:29:55 AM EST by drfcolt]

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
Do you actually know of anyone buying an M16 (factory, factory reweld, RR, RDIAS) for $6.5K-$8K recently?

yes. this summer.

Do you actually know of anyone buying an MG42 (original or reweld) for $23K recently?

yes. prior to bulletfest.

last year, i ran into a guy that bought one at $18k.

here's a 34 at $20.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/product2281.html




I can see the MG34 for $20K, but you have to admit that those kind of deals for the M16 and MG42 are far and few-between these days.

Your right though, if you find someone who isn't Internet oriented, you could certainly get a heck of a deal. They probably bought their M16 ump-teen years ago for $1.5K and $6-$8K would be a heck of a return.

Of course, you might die of old-age trying to find that person.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:29:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
Do you actually know of anyone buying an M16 (factory, factory reweld, RR, RDIAS) for $6.5K-$8K recently?

yes. this summer.

Do you actually know of anyone buying an MG42 (original or reweld) for $23K recently?

yes. prior to bulletfest.

last year, i ran into a guy that bought one at $18k.

here's a 34 at $20.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/product2281.html





dfrcolt,
When you get that bad boy bring it on down here and i'll help you 'break it in'!

You do like BBQ don't you?

BigDozer66
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:39:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:46:37 AM EST
And the "sad" part for the gun control side is that had they not enacted that stupid ban, we would all be registered gun owners today. Dumb shits.


Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:48:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By drfcolt:
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:

look harder. they still can be had for $6,500-8000. money talks and bullshit walks. flash that cash and you may be surprised at the final figure. in a nutshell, though, you are correct. the finite supply in an ever-increasing market has driven prices up rapidly.

think of the ammunition you could buy for the price difference between a $23,000 mg42 and a $500 one.


Do you actually know of anyone buying an M16 (factory, factory reweld, RR, RDIAS) for $6.5K-$8K recently?

Do you actually know of anyone buying an MG42 (original or reweld) for $23K recently?

I have some money that really want's to talk with some of these sellers.



That's a good point, actually. Yes, some people do pay, but by and large, most are priced out of the market. We badly need an amnesty that would at least increase supply a bit.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 9:51:45 AM EST
The better question is: what are we going to do about it? The facts are on our side. Registered machine gun use in crime borders on non-existent.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:02:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Steve_T_M:
The better question is: what are we going to do about it? The facts are on our side. Registered machine gun use in crime borders on non-existent.





Unfortunately, facts don't matter when it comes to anti-gun legislation. Its all about public perception, playing on the fears of the uninformed and gullible, and winning elections.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 10:14:29 AM EST
Wow! What a great Idea, an amnesty period. I would gladly increase the supply by at least 4.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 1:14:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By gunham:
Wow! What a great Idea, an amnesty period. I would gladly increase the supply by at least 4.

yeah really imagine how many DIAS"S and LL's would magicaly be "found"

Link Posted: 10/15/2004 1:24:53 PM EST
The 86 ban is why I hate the NRA. Bastards sold us out, like they always do, to the duck hunters!

"The 2nd ain't about duck hunting."

Fact is, the second is about the populace being armed and capable of hunting POLITICIANS if they get way out of line!! Try to get the NRA to admit THAT.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 1:51:11 PM EST
I dont know if this will help or not but I have seen m16's listed for about $5000. Ill have to look up the source again though.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 1:53:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 1:55:26 PM EST by johnnyrebel]

Originally Posted By Lockem:
I dont know if this will help or not but I have seen m16's listed for about $5000. Ill have to look up the source again though.



please do otherwise i may have to get a loan for !!!!THIS!!!!!


or !!!THIS!!!
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 2:00:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/15/2004 2:01:10 PM EST by Bubbatheredneck]

I was speaking witha dealer last week who said he bought 3 M16's in 04 for less than 8K apiece. Selling for 12-15K. Deals are on the dealer side of the Class III coin, not the retail side. Heck, for what they cost now, you would be better off becoming a class III dealer and playing with samples vs buying retail.

Link Posted: 10/15/2004 2:54:06 PM EST
Amazing but who should call when I was posting to this thread - the NRA wanting me to join!! I left the lady speachless when i laid the duck hunter thing on her and fact NRA sold out us machinegunners in 86. I LOVE doing that to their telemarketers!!
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 3:40:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
I was speaking witha dealer last week who said he bought 3 M16's in 04 for less than 8K apiece. Selling for 12-15K. Deals are on the dealer side of the Class III coin, not the retail side. Heck, for what they cost now, you would be better off becoming a class III dealer and playing with samples vs buying retail.




I've been seriously thinking about getting the FFL and getting a Class 3 dealer's license, but it looks next to impossible to do so without being a "real" storefront dealer.


A friend mine once said that if I really needed a full auto because of foriegn invaders or a tyranical state, then breaking the law by converting my semiauto to full would be the least of my worries.


Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:00:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By Steve_T_M:
I think he asked the NRA if they wanted him to sign it, and they said to go ahead. The ban was an amendment introduced in the last few minutes of the debate - a real sucker punch.



McClure-Volkmer Act aka FOPA did away with a number of laws that basically allowed dealers to be charged with felonies for paperwork errors, laws related transporting guns, JBT type laws. It was a very good bill. At midnight the the day of the vote, Democrats tacked on the MG ban amendment when they were certain that there were enough votes to pull it off, it was passed with a voice vote, which to this day is in question. Congressmen demanded a roll call but were ignored, it was in fact railroaded thru Congress with the gavel of Tip O'Neal. It was presented to RR and he actually read the thing and asked the sponsors if they were certain they wanted him to sign it, they said yes and the rest is history. The NRA sponsors had to compromise with the Democrats to get the rest of the bill passed. The greater good of the thing out weighed the status quo. The NRA personnel responsible for caving into the Rats were summarily removed. It was no different that the lawful commerce in firearms legislation that didn't pass this year. The exception was that we had the right guys on the job and they refused to compromise by making the AWB permanent. Remember that!

See the pattern?

MV86 bans Machineguns, but gets rid of ridiculous laws hurting lawful owners.

2004 Firearm Commerce law, bans AWB's but protects lawful firearm manufacturers from unreasonable laws.

So take this from this lesson: The Dems want to ban all guns, period. It's not just parroting or heresay, it is documented fact. It is their misson to do so incrementally, if you look deeper into firearm law and legislation, you will find that the Socialist Democrats are behind it all. They will accomplish their misson, time is on their side. They incrementally create bogus laws then offer to do away with them in exchange for a larger restriction. So you must remain informed, you must fight back, you must make certain that your representatives and legislators understand firearms from your point of view. You must not compromise. Firearm ownership is a right endowed by the Creator and must be recognised as such. Keep in mind that it takes money to fight for your rights even though those wishing to take them away are wrong. Just like an innocent person must pay to defend themselves when wrongly accused. Do your part when asked.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:18:41 PM EST

Congress with the gavel of Tip O'Neal


Are you sure it was not Charles Rangel holding that gavel for that voice vote?

I could be wrong.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:27:44 PM EST
Who in the heck wants to buy a registered machine gun anyway?

Some people must like handing out their fingerprints and addresses to the BATFE.

Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:39:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
Do you actually know of anyone buying an M16 (factory, factory reweld, RR, RDIAS) for $6.5K-$8K recently?

yes. this summer.

Do you actually know of anyone buying an MG42 (original or reweld) for $23K recently?

yes. prior to bulletfest.

last year, i ran into a guy that bought one at $18k.

here's a 34 at $20.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/product2281.html





Uhh bzzzt. I'm pretty sure he meant Transferrable.

This is a Pre-May dealer sample and you must be a class 3 dealer to purchase. No demonstration letter needed.
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:39:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By CRC:
Who in the heck wants to buy a registered machine gun anyway? That's not the point, it's about your absolute right to own one without an infringement. Get it?

Some people must like handing out their fingerprints and addresses to the BATFE.


Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:46:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By CRC:
Who in the heck wants to buy a registered machine gun anyway?

Some people must like handing out their fingerprints and addresses to the BATFE.




That is an important point...even if we did get rid of 1986 I doubt I would personally buy a brand new M16 for any price. However, if we got rid of 1934...
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 5:52:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By squeezecockerp7m8:

Originally Posted By CRC:
Who in the heck wants to buy a registered machine gun anyway?

Some people must like handing out their fingerprints and addresses to the BATFE.




That is an important point...even if we did get rid of 1986 I doubt I would personally buy a brand new M16 for any price. However, if we got rid of 1934...



That is where we need to go.

Why buy a registered, controlled firearm?

CRC
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 7:59:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Steve_T_M:
The better question is: what are we going to do about it? The facts are on our side. Registered machine gun use in crime borders on non-existent.



I keep saying this, but nobody wants to have serious discussions about it (and it may just be a stupid idea). I think it would be fairly easy to get an amendment to 922(o) to allow FFL holders to get new NFA goodies. You think congresscritters know the in's and out's of the various FFL types? Pshaw, I doubt it. One could argue that FFLs need this to help commerce or for repair or whatever. I'm betting we could get this passed. Then, you just get a C&R and away you go.

This is the way things got turned around in one of the Carolinas. They amended the law with some real complicated language under the guise of "allowing police officers to own NFA items". The thing most people missed was that it also allowed anybody else to do so as well.

We can do this!
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