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Posted: 10/5/2012 1:36:38 PM EDT

The Catalans in Spain are pushing for a refurendum on independance.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19847251

Scotland is getting a referendum soon, it could go either way. There are also some seperatist movements in Italy and Germany.
Europe has some very interesting days ahead.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 1:39:37 PM EDT
[#1]
Interesting days?  They couldn't happen to a more deserving bunch.



Link Posted: 10/5/2012 1:40:43 PM EDT
[#2]
I struggle for the rebirth of the Dobunni.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 1:40:44 PM EDT
[#3]
And this is what you get with three decades of almost uninterrupted Socialism.
 
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 1:43:27 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 1:45:07 PM EDT
[#5]




Quoted:

Let's hope not. We don't need anymore conflicts over there.


How else are they going to thin the herd?
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 1:45:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
And this is what you get with three decades of almost uninterrupted Socialism.  


Factions squabbling for the scraps of the long gone pie.  

Link Posted: 10/5/2012 1:47:41 PM EDT
[#7]



Quoted:




The Catalans in Spain are pushing for a refurendum on independance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19847251



Scotland is getting a referendum soon, it could go either way. There are also some seperatist movements in Italy and Germany.

Europe has some very interesting days ahead.


As much as I like to poke fun at the Scottish, I genuinely do not believe they are that stupid. Not during those brief moments of sobriety, at least. Fingers crossed any referendum will be held during that brief window of sober opportunity, between 0637 and 0749 on every third Thursday of the month.
 
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 1:48:43 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Let's hope not. We don't need anymore conflicts over there.

How else are they going to thin the herd?


We just need to stand aside and watch this time.  The Middle east is coming apart at the seems too.  Ron Paul was/is right, we should stay out.  Hopefully if Romney wins he opens up oil in a massive way immediately.

Link Posted: 10/5/2012 1:51:41 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:

Quoted:

The Catalans in Spain are pushing for a refurendum on independance.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19847251

Scotland is getting a referendum soon, it could go either way. There are also some seperatist movements in Italy and Germany.
Europe has some very interesting days ahead.

As much as I like to poke fun at the Scottish, I genuinely do not believe they are that stupid. Not during those brief moments of sobriety, at least. Fingers crossed any referendum will be held during that brief window of sober opportunity, between 0637 and 0749 on every third Thursday of the month.



 



Independence for Scotland will involve a lot of sacrifice for them, theres no doubt about that. If its something they truly want they'll suck it up and deal with it.
Irish independence was an economic disaster for a very long time, theres absolutly no doubt that the last century would have been much more comfortable in Ireland if we had stayed in the UK. We wanted independece enough to take it. YMMV.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 1:54:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
And this is what you get with three decades of almost uninterrupted Socialism.  


It's OK because it's not national socialism. International socialism will work.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 1:55:38 PM EDT
[#11]
Wouldn't the North Sea oil trade/industry maintain Scotland's economy?
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:08:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Wouldn't the North Sea oil trade/industry maintain Scotland's economy?


The North Sea reserves arnt what they once were. Most it will probably be finishing up in the next decade or so.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:12:37 PM EDT
[#13]



Quoted:



Quoted:

Wouldn't the North Sea oil trade/industry maintain Scotland's economy?




The North Sea reserves arnt what they once were. Most it will probably be finishing up in the next decade or so.


Wow, didn't realize they were that far gone.  

 
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:15:07 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Let's hope not. We don't need anymore conflicts over there.  


I think "We" shouldn't meddle in their impending implosion.

They built it.

They own it.

"We" did our part over the last 100 years.

Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:15:40 PM EDT
[#15]
Death of the nation state - when the combined and shared sense of a national nationality or identity becomes secondary to regional or ethnic interests.  Not always a bad thing either.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:15:55 PM EDT
[#16]





Quoted:



Wouldn't the North Sea oil trade/industry maintain Scotland's economy?



Considering they already spend their share of it and then some, requiring England to make up the difference... No.





Edited to add: Scotland has an amazing ability to spend money that it doesn't have. By comparison, England is a tightfisted slayer of welfare and a veritable hive of capitalism.





 
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:18:48 PM EDT
[#17]
I don't believe the SNP will get the result they want.  Not so up on the situation in Spain but again I doubt it.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:19:06 PM EDT
[#18]



Quoted:


Death of the nation state - when the combined and shared sense of a national nationality or identity becomes secondary to regional or ethnic interests.  Not always a bad thing either.


No, quite the opposite.



It's the full realization of the concept.



 
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:19:27 PM EDT
[#19]



Quoted:


I don't believe the SNP will get the result they want.  Not so up on the situation in Spain but again I doubt it.


Spain will have another civil war if that happens. I guarantee it.



 
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:20:40 PM EDT
[#20]







Quoted:
Quoted:



Wouldn't the North Sea oil trade/industry maintain Scotland's economy?




Considering they already spend their share of it and then some, requiring England to make up the difference... No.
Edited to add: Scotland has an amazing ability to spend money that it doesn't have. By comparison, England is a tightfisted slayer of welfare and a veritable hive of capitalism.



 




So this, from Wiki, is mistaken?






 


"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The economy of Scotland is closely linked with the rest of the United Kingdom and the wider European Economic Area.Scotland has the second largest GVA per capita of countries in the United Kingdom after England, though it is still lower than the average of the United Kingdom as a whole. Revenue from North Sea oil and gas is not included in these figures, if it were it would reveal Scotland with a budget surplus or small deficit."

 

 
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:29:21 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:

The Catalans in Spain are pushing for a refurendum on independance.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19847251

Scotland is getting a referendum soon, it could go either way. There are also some seperatist movements in Italy and Germany.
Europe has some very interesting days ahead.


That's what happens when you impose political boundaries without regard for ethnic or regional distinctions ...shit happens, it gets messy when you can't hold it together through political, financial incentives.

Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:31:27 PM EDT
[#22]
I would do anything to escape the tyranny of the EU.

A bunch of unelected mysterious foreigners shouldn't run your nation. It's time for the individual nations to reclaim their sovereignty.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:31:32 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:

The Catalans in Spain are pushing for a refurendum on independance.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19847251

Scotland is getting a referendum soon, it could go either way. There are also some seperatist movements in Italy and Germany.
Europe has some very interesting days ahead.


That's what happens when you impose political boundaries without regard for ethnic or regional distinctions ...shit happens, it gets messy when you can't hold it together through political, financial incentives.



Indeed, many nationalities are arbitrary constructs.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:32:29 PM EDT
[#24]



Quoted:



Quoted:



The Catalans in Spain are pushing for a refurendum on independance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19847251



Scotland is getting a referendum soon, it could go either way. There are also some seperatist movements in Italy and Germany.

Europe has some very interesting days ahead.




That's what happens when you impose political boundaries without regard for ethnic or regional distinctions ...shit happens, it gets messy when you can't hold it together through political, financial incentives.





Except that Catalonia has been part of Spain ever since the country was created by the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella. Before then it was part of Aragon.



Catalan separatism is strongly tied to Socialism/Marxism.



 
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:34:39 PM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:34:55 PM EDT
[#26]



Quoted:






So this, from Wiki, is mistaken?


   
"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The economy of Scotland is closely linked with the rest of the United Kingdom and the wider European Economic Area.Scotland has the second largest GVA per capita of countries in the United Kingdom after England, though it is still lower than the average of the United Kingdom as a whole. Revenue from North Sea oil and gas is not included in these figures, if it were it would reveal Scotland with a budget surplus or small deficit."
 
 


According to the scottish government website, Wiki is mistaken. I seem to recall Scotland needed massive amounts of English money, even taking into account oil revenue.



Can't find the link now but I think I've posted it elsewhere. It migth have been from 2010 or 2011 though. Remind me in the morning.



 
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:35:22 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
I would do anything to escape the tyranny of the EU.

A bunch of unelected mysterious foreigners shouldn't run your nation. It's time for the individual nations to reclaim their sovereignty.


lulz
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:37:46 PM EDT
[#28]



Quoted:





Quoted:





So this, from Wiki, is mistaken?


   
"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The economy of Scotland is closely linked with the rest of the United Kingdom and the wider European Economic Area.Scotland has the second largest GVA per capita of countries in the United Kingdom after England, though it is still lower than the average of the United Kingdom as a whole. Revenue from North Sea oil and gas is not included in these figures, if it were it would reveal Scotland with a budget surplus or small deficit."
 
 


According to the scottish government website, Wiki is mistaken. I seem to recall Scotland needed massive amounts of English money, even taking into account oil revenue.



Can't find the link now but I think I've posted it elsewhere. It migth have been from 2010 or 2011 though. Remind me in the morning.

 


Don't worry about it...  I was just mildly curious (I used to do a lot of business with a ROV manufacturer/operator in Aberdeen); when I was there ~ 25 years ago, the area seemed to have its shit together.

 
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:44:59 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Let's hope not. We don't need anymore conflicts over there.  


I think "We" shouldn't meddle in their impending implosion.

They built it.

They own it.

"We" did our part over the last 100 years.


As much as we don't want to believe it, instability in Europe will lead to problems here.

 


Maybe or maybe not.  Smaller states can better and more responsibly serve their populace better.  As far as some nations in Europe, it would be better to try something different.  All things come to an end.  Spain had a long run.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:54:52 PM EDT
[#30]
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 2:57:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 3:03:32 PM EDT
[#32]
Just a quick dig around brought up this site here >linky link<
I may well be misunderstanding it, feel free to read through yourself.
To summarise, for 2010-2011:






<removed because Tables are teh ghey and do not appear to work >
Scotland appears to be falling short by several billion as it is. Remember that their income includes subsidies from England. I've not got figures to hand but if they split, their income will drop even further.





edited to add: Well the table feature feckin' sucks



Income:

Exluding North Sea Oil: £45.2 billion GBP

Including North Sea Oil:

per capita share: £45.9 billion GBP

geographical share: £53.1 billion GBP



Expenditure: £63.8 billion GBP



 
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 3:05:28 PM EDT
[#33]
Leave it to a brit to break a post.  
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 3:08:26 PM EDT
[#34]
[sarcasm]What? A fractious and squabling europe?

Holy shit, it must be the end of days![/sarcasm]

Europe has always done this. The relative stability over the last 60 or 70 years is really an anomoly. That said, these things in europe do on occasion tend to get badly out of hand and piss on everyone elses party.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 3:09:39 PM EDT
[#35]



Quoted:


Leave it to a brit to break a post.  


My motto has always been "Adapt, Overcome, or just say feck it and throw your toys out of the pram". Rules to live by, they are.



 
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 3:13:30 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
I struggle for the rebirth of the Dobunni.


The kingdom of Deira must be reborn!
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 3:15:50 PM EDT
[#37]
An independent Scotland would implode within a decade. The Scots are even more socialist than the Limeys.

Spain is a different matter, but even there the separatists are mostly socialists.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 3:28:20 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:

The Catalans in Spain are pushing for a refurendum on independance.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-19847251

Scotland is getting a referendum soon, it could go either way. There are also some seperatist movements in Italy and Germany.
Europe has some very interesting days ahead.


Germany

I like to see a link to a source for that. I am German and talk to my mother quite frequently and read German Newspapers and I have not read anything about this at all.

Perhaps we are lucky and West Germany and East Germany will split again and they will build the wall higher this time
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 3:30:11 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:


Germany

I like to see a link to a source for that. I am German and talk to my mother quite frequently and read German Newspapers and I have not read anything about this at all.

Perhaps we are lucky and West Germany and East Germany will split again and they will build the wall higher this time


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria_Party

ETA: Not a major movement to be sure, but there is some support.
Link Posted: 10/5/2012 3:41:16 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:


Germany

I like to see a link to a source for that. I am German and talk to my mother quite frequently and read German Newspapers and I have not read anything about this at all.

Perhaps we are lucky and West Germany and East Germany will split again and they will build the wall higher this time


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria_Party

ETA: Not a major movement to be sure, but there is some support.



that is funny they have been trying that for years and years. My father and his family are from Bavaria. They can try but this will never happen.

Bavaria is also the only State in Germany that has it's own Political Party the CSU.

Link Posted: 10/5/2012 5:21:50 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Let's hope not. We don't need anymore conflicts over there.  


I think "We" shouldn't meddle in their impending implosion.

They built it.

They own it.

"We" did our part over the last 100 years.


As much as we don't want to believe it, instability in Europe will lead to problems here.

 


Problems are coming here soon regardless of what happens over there.

Link Posted: 10/5/2012 5:25:20 PM EDT
[#42]
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