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Posted: 7/30/2018 2:49:15 PM EST
First off I will never knock anyone for the caliber they pick because they can shoot it better and feel more comfortable with it!

What I will say is that I don't understand these people who go out and switch to 9mm due to the FBI testing. Is this not the same FBI that said the 38 and 9mm were $hit back in the 1980's? They talk about how the bullet design now makes the 9mm much better. Yet would they not make the other calibers better also or are they only using this new design on 9mm?

I understand that they can hold more rounds and that's great! I understand they say it has better penetration due to speed. So why are not most agencies and the FBI going to 5.7x28? Has higher speed than the 9mm better penetration and you can hold more rounds then a 9mm. It can also be used in a rifle if need be!

Like I said not ragging on the 9mm there are a lot of people out there that shoot it and well because it works for them as they are more accurate with it and so on! To these people I 200% respect your choice as we all are different!

I have a few officers I know who switched over to the 9mm just because of the FBI testing. Same people who said 30+ years ago that the 9mm was not a good round at all! I have seen the FBI test and I know how the government works if they can buy something cheaper they will do it! If they can cut down on a type of person failing out of being an LEO they will scrap a caliber that might have been better to do it also!

Like to hear what you all think again not a flame on the 9mm at all as I said if that is your choice caliber hit your target better then that's what I would pick also! I'm just saying that the advantages of the 9mm that I have been told are dwarfed by other calibers out there like the 5.7x28!

So is this FBI test what caliber is best or is it what caliber is the cheapest, gets more people who will pass on the range and hold the most rounds? Also emphasis mostly on CHEAPEST!!!

For the last time in this post, I'm not flaming the 9mm at all! Just like to hear what other officers think and feel about the FBI test that has been done and feel if there might have been some predigest?!!
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 2:54:26 PM EST
The FBI has no credibility.  Fools rush in.
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 3:06:21 PM EST
Something about average accuracy scores were lower with the 40's and the advancement in defensive rounds made the 9mm just as good or good enough. I'm sure the ammo being cheaper helped also.
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 3:35:45 PM EST
We went .45ACP
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 4:45:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2018 5:00:33 PM EST by Bigger_Hammer]
Statistics show that all handgun rounds suck, just about equally...

That said, you get the "Mah .45 will never be less than .45 and it's been proven since 1911"

You get the "Mah 9 will load on Monday and shoot until Sunday - It's what the .GOV issues"

And the people in the middle who say that "mah .40 is bigger than a lil ol' 9mm and holds nearly twice more than .45 guns - it's the best of both worlds"...

All are 3rd rate compared to a rifle or shotgun, but give yourself the mental boost that whatever you choose is 'The Best" "

BIGGER_HAMMER
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 6:05:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2018 6:07:40 PM EST by tayous1]
Wrong quote!
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 6:07:05 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
Statistics show that all handgun rounds suck, just about equally...

That said, you get the "Mah .45 will never be less than .45 and it's been proven since 1911"

You get the "Mah 9 will load on Monday and shoot until Sunday - It's what the .GOV issues"

And the people in the middle who say that "mah .40 is bigger than a lil ol' 9mm and holds nearly twice more than .45 guns - it's the best of both worlds"...

All are 3rd rate compared to a rifle or shotgun, but give yourself the mental boost that whatever you choose is 'The Best" "

BIGGER_HAMMER
View Quote
Use my pistol to fight to my rifle! Agree 1000%+ yet it seems in federal and what I have talked to others state that is not what is taught! I have been on calls that the person had a pistol and most of the LEO show up with just that a pistol! They look at me weird because I pull out the AR-15! Yes, I'm the odd person because I take a rifle to any report of firearms!

THAT is another topic!
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 6:48:04 PM EST
Do you actually think the 5.7 is a better round than the 9mm?

The 9mm is working quite well in police shootings. My officers' last shooting it worked quite well. Dropped him like a rock.

Alternatively, I worked a homicide last year where the suspect hit the victim with .380 ball in the hip. Travelled up the victim's torso and hit all the vital shit and killed him.

All bullets can be lethal but some are more suited to defensive use. The 9mm works just fine for LE uses. Since it's the cheapest ammo out there, aside from .22LR, it allows departments to get more ammo for their meager training budgets. That's important.
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 7:16:36 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bigger_Hammer:
Statistics show that all handgun rounds suck, just about equally...

That said, you get the "Mah .45 will never be less than .45 and it's been proven since 1911"

You get the "Mah 9 will load on Monday and shoot until Sunday - It's what the .GOV issues"

And the people in the middle who say that "mah .40 is bigger than a lil ol' 9mm and holds nearly twice more than .45 guns - it's the best of both worlds"...

All are 3rd rate compared to a rifle or shotgun, but give yourself the mental boost that whatever you choose is 'The Best" "

BIGGER_HAMMER
View Quote
.45 ACP necked to .357 firing a jacketed wad cutter with a split in the middle so it opens up like a butterfly but cuts into skull rather than bouncing on a hard headed individual. Or a solid copper/brass that is cupped and opens up with a couple slices in the side of the cup but hits around 1900 fps.
That's probably what Cirrillo would recommend in an automatic if he hadn't passed away. Feeds better than Sig .357
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 7:45:36 PM EST
147gr +p is not the 9mm of old..
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 7:48:52 PM EST
And to think that as late as 2016, the NPS was planning to phase out 9mm.

.
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 7:54:04 PM EST
If I can't hit shit with a .40 standing in perfect conditions on a range, I'm going to get murdered in any real threatening situation.

Knowing I can reliably hit what I want with a 9mm on the same range, allows me to train. Do things to get my heart rate up and simulate a threatening situation.

Want to know a dirty secret? I've never even shot a .45 pistol. None of my friends have one.

9mm master race in my hood.
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 8:17:45 PM EST
Didn't we do this in the early 80's? That time it resulted in the .40 S&W.

They'll have to come up with something different this time. The FBI is the best LE outfit in the world. They won't settle for the usual and the tried/true. Gotta have something new and hot. Wait, that was the 10MM wasn't it. Well, they turned the 10MM into the .40 S&W.

Ah, old guys, BTDT. Or at least read about it as I kept on carrying my Colt Combat Commander till the Chief made me start carrying a S&W 686 with 125 grain hollow points in it.
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 8:19:07 PM EST
It’s been my experience that when shit goes south your stuck with what’s at hand. Your kitted our AR or 870 are better weapons but not if they’re safely locked in your car when the rounds are coming your way.
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 10:29:59 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By wildearp:
The FBI has no credibility.  Fools rush in.
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The FBI isn't very good at investigating. I'm not sure they ever were. What they are good at is data collection and they have a huge budget for research. Their research into handgun bullet performance is excellent. I don't agree 100% with their conclusions but their data gathering and bullet performance testing is superb. Way better than any local department is capable of doing.
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 10:55:19 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:

The FBI isn't very good at investigating. I'm not sure they ever were. What they are good at is data collection and they have a huge budget for research. Their research into handgun bullet performance is excellent. I don't agree 100% with their conclusions but their data gathering and bullet performance testing is superb. Way better than any local department is capable of doing.
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Concur. They'd be better off being a national clearing house for police data on firearms, UoF, tactics, etc, instead of trying to bill themselves as the premier investigative agency in the nation.
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 11:54:24 PM EST
OP

This has been beat to death in the other rooms of this forum.

Like the others have alluded to, handguns were invented as a compromise system for those not wanting to carry a long gun. Having said that, there are calibers that are less successful than others, when all the factors are tallied.

Current 9mm bullet offerings are better than they were in 1990. When you factor that in, plus round count, the larger number of people who, for whatever reason can qualify with a 9mm better than with other calibers, plus per-round training costs, plus platform variation and availability, 9mm is the peak of compromise.

Some don't. But in a liability-conscious, let's do what the Big Boys do kind of career field, there are better things to be mad about than the tide change to 9mm.

I started out in the late 80's with Level I soft body armor and a .38 revolver. I can't wait to see what I finally end up with!
Link Posted: 7/30/2018 11:57:43 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SEK7562:

Concur. They'd be better off being a national clearing house for police data on firearms, UoF, tactics, etc, instead of trying to bill themselves as the premier investigative agency whatever is capturing the spotlight at that point in time in the nation.
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Fixed for you

I've watch them be drug busters, organized crime busters, bomb busters, terrorist busters, and lately, the Pinnacle And Final Word For All Things Bluey In Nature.

(it would be great if they could settle down and focus, and get their various houses in order, especially their evidence collectionistas)

Pretty ambitious considering they weren't even given firearms privileges initially...
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 8:07:22 AM EST
We're switching from 40 to 9mm. I have no doubt $ and bringing qual scores up are the reasons.
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 10:16:55 AM EST
tayous1, a lot of us are carrying .40 caliber because our agency jumped on the FBI bandwagon back in the 90's. I hope we go to 9mm where I work as we are looking at it.
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 1:11:04 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
Do you actually think the 5.7 is a better round than the 9mm?

The 9mm is working quite well in police shootings. My officers' last shooting it worked quite well. Dropped him like a rock.

Alternatively, I worked a homicide last year where the suspect hit the victim with .380 ball in the hip. Travelled up the victim's torso and hit all the vital shit and killed him.

All bullets can be lethal but some are more suited to defensive use. The 9mm works just fine for LE uses. Since it's the cheapest ammo out there, aside from .22LR, it allows departments to get more ammo for their meager training budgets. That's important.
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Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
Do you actually think the 5.7 is a better round than the 9mm?

The 9mm is working quite well in police shootings. My officers' last shooting it worked quite well. Dropped him like a rock.

Alternatively, I worked a homicide last year where the suspect hit the victim with .380 ball in the hip. Travelled up the victim's torso and hit all the vital shit and killed him.

All bullets can be lethal but some are more suited to defensive use. The 9mm works just fine for LE uses. Since it's the cheapest ammo out there, aside from .22LR, it allows departments to get more ammo for their meager training budgets. That's important.
5.7 can defeat body armor can the 9mm? So there is a + for it I can hold more of this body armor defeating ammo then I can with a 9mm. Again another+ to this round! Recoil should be less I myself never shot it. So more rounds on target faster then the 9mm!

What the 9mm has the advantage is cost and only cost!

Originally Posted By TexasDoubleTap:
If I can't hit shit with a .40 standing in perfect conditions on a range, I'm going to get murdered in any real threatening situation.

Knowing I can reliably hit what I want with a 9mm on the same range, allows me to train. Do things to get my heart rate up and simulate a threatening situation.

Want to know a dirty secret? I've never even shot a .45 pistol. None of my friends have one.

9mm master race in my hood.
Good as I said if you can hit better with a 9mm take it! No flame you're picking the caliber you shot best with and can get more hits on target nothing wrong with that at all!

I'm talking more about people who switch to 9mm due to FBI test!

Originally Posted By Natty_Bumppo:
It’s been my experience that when shit goes south you're stuck with what’s at hand. You're kitted our AR or 870 are better weapons but not if they’re safely locked in your car when the rounds are coming your way.
Agree but so so many Office don't think about the use your pistol to fight to your rifle! Much less don't believe take a bigger gun when a firearm is involved!

Originally Posted By high_order1:
OP

This has been beaten to death in the other rooms of this forum.

Like the others have alluded to, handguns were invented as a compromised system for those not wanting to carry a long gun. Having said that, there are calibers that are less successful than others, when all the factors are tallied.

Current 9mm bullet offerings are better than they were in 1990. When you factor that in, plus round count, the larger number of people who, for whatever reason can qualify with a 9mm better than with other calibers, plus per-round training costs, plus platform variation and availability, 9mm is the peak of compromise.

Some don't. But in a liability-conscious, let's do what the Big Boys do kind of career field, there are better things to be mad about than the tide change to 9mm.

I started out in the late 80's with Level I soft body armor and a .38 revolver. I can't wait to see what I finally end up with!
So I will argue a 100+-year-old round was just made effective? So why is this cutting edge bullet that makes a 100+-year-old round better only singled to the 9mm?

So this new bullet does not help the 40 or 45 or any other caliber just the 9mm!? So the Gods smiled on the 9mm and said this is the caliber of us!???

Sorry, don't believe that one at all! It's a 100+-year-old caliber and if it was not cheap to make and allowed officers to score better it would have been cast aside a long time ago!

Again tell me how the 9mm is better then the 5.7x28? Other then cost!
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 1:15:19 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By floridacop:
tayous1, a lot of us are carrying .40 caliber because our agency jumped on the FBI bandwagon back in the 90's. I hope we go to 9mm where I work as we are looking at it.
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Why not 5.7x28 then? More ammo less recoil and can defeat body armor! So it is superior to the 9mm! So has no one switched to that?

Your department is doing it for one resin and that is money! It's cheaper to buy 9mm not that its better!
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 1:17:00 PM EST
If it was me I'd allow the 460 Rowland as a duty round! For the people who can control it!
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 1:56:16 PM EST
I use my revolver to fight to my auto pistol. Then my pistol to the shotgun. After that the shotgun to my rifle to make sure I get to the 10mm to kill him deader and destroy his soul.
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 2:12:20 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:

The FBI isn't very good at investigating. I'm not sure they ever were. What they are good at is data collection and they have a huge budget for research. Their research into handgun bullet performance is excellent. I don't agree 100% with their conclusions but their data gathering and bullet performance testing is superb. Way better than any local department is capable of doing.
View Quote
The FBI probably handles thousands of investigations a year. How could you possibly know if they are or are not good at investigating?
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 4:59:37 PM EST
My agency (over 200 sworn) is looking at for a couple of reasons. It is reported that performance went up for all shooters of various backgrounds and skill sets. Most gunfights are not single shot shootings. A reasonable caliber that also allows fast and accurate hits is a good way to put down the target. Being in a southern climate where heavy clothing is not an issue like some of the more colder climates, which may effect penetration or expansion, personally makes me favor 9mm more. 9mm today is not the 9mm of the 80's or 90's.

Ironic, when we switched to .40 cal, the SWAT team stayed with 9mm Sigs until they basically quit using the MP-5 as a primary long gun on entries. They then had to switch to .40 cal Glocks. The SWAT guys never bitched about the 9mm.

What's the track record of 5.7 on human targets out of a pistol.
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 7:36:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2018 8:46:19 PM EST by ColtRifle]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 12a10:

The FBI probably handles thousands of investigations a year. How could you possibly know if they are or are not good at investigating?
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I've worked with them. They are good at taking over investigations from state and local agencies, formatting the paperwork for federal court, and submitting it. The FBI has been probably the most heavily affected by affirmative action so a lot of their agents are incompetent but can check the right boxes on the application.

I've known some good FBI agents but they are few and far between. Even the most fucked up state or local agency has some good people stuck working there. Even my friends in the FBI tell me how fucked that agency is.

I could make a ton of cases if I could charge people with lying to me. The FBI investigates a lot of cases where the only charge they end up with is "lying to the FBI. If that's the best you can come up with in a bunch of criminal investigations, you are incompetent.

I haven't even touched on the FBI's Hillary investigation. Not much needs to be said about that. It speaks for itself.

After reviewing our posts, it looks like we are starting to derail this thread so if we want to continue this further, probably be best for you to start a new thread.
Link Posted: 7/31/2018 7:50:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2018 12:05:25 PM EST by ColtRifle]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Why not 5.7x28 then? More ammo less recoil and can defeat body armor! So it is superior to the 9mm! So has no one switched to that?

Your department is doing it for one resin and that is money! It's cheaper to buy 9mm not that its better!
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Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By floridacop:
tayous1, a lot of us are carrying .40 caliber because our agency jumped on the FBI bandwagon back in the 90's. I hope we go to 9mm where I work as we are looking at it.
Why not 5.7x28 then? More ammo less recoil and can defeat body armor! So it is superior to the 9mm! So has no one switched to that?

Your department is doing it for one resin and that is money! It's cheaper to buy 9mm not that its better!
The 5.7 is a novelty round. In the right loading it does penetrate soft body armor. So does 5.56. How common is body armor on bad guys? We have had a bunch of incidents where body armor stolen from officers vehicles in my area.....Still haven't seen a bad guy wearing it. Recovered one in a search warrant. It was tossed in a corner with a bunch of trash. Body armor on bad guys is incredibly rare. And, if you come upon it, use your rifle or take head shots with your pistol. You are training to fire more than one round in a shootout right?

Unlike the 5.56, the 5.7 has shitty terminal ballistics. Of course it can kill people. So can the .22 LR. One of the homicides I worked last year the victim received one shot to the hip with a FMJ .380. Crossed his torso and hit vital shit. DRT. Doesn't mean I'm gonna advocate for issuing FMJ .380 to officers as a duty load.

The FBI's push for 10mm and then the development of the .40 was an over reaction to the FBI's Miami shootout. That's where my disagreement with the FBI's standard comes from. Basically they demanded a round that might have worked in that scenario.....So basically they designed a protocol around one shooting. Further research seems to have convinced them that they need to take another look at the 9 mm.

My department had a shooting last year. Suspect was injured but didn't die. 9mm 147 grain Winchester Ranger. Non vital hit. Of course he didn't drop like a rock. This year we had another shooting. Same bullet. Several vital hits. DRT. Placement is everything.

Training for departments is a huge deal. Departments don't get enough. When your choice is gas in the cars or training ammo....guess which one you get? I'd rather have officers who can hit with a 9 mm than officers who can't hit the broad side of a barn with something bigger.
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 12:37:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By tayous1:

5.7 can defeat body armor can the 9mm? So there is a + for it I can hold more of this body armor defeating ammo then I can with a 9mm. Again another+ to this round! Recoil should be less I myself never shot it. So more rounds on target faster then the 9mm!

So I will argue a 100+-year-old round was just made effective? So why is this cutting edge bullet that makes a 100+-year-old round better only singled to the 9mm?

So this new bullet does not help the 40 or 45 or any other caliber just the 9mm!? So the Gods smiled on the 9mm and said this is the caliber of us!???

Sorry, don't believe that one at all! It's a 100+-year-old caliber and if it was not cheap to make and allowed officers to score better it would have been cast aside a long time ago!

Again tell me how the 9mm is better then the 5.7x28? Other then cost!
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Ok

I have a couple of minutes.

Like said above, 5.7 is a gimmick round, like 45GAP and 357 Sig. Unlike the other two, there are a lot of other platforms that fire those rounds, and a lot of people making bullets and accessories for them. You buy into 5.7, you are kind of locked into a bottleneck. If there is a production burp or issue; you're fucked. Which is ok if you're with the stinky creek metro task force; go to the pawn shop and buy something else. When you're NYPD, you forecast in the tens of years. (Imagine just having the contract for mag cases)

There is nothing about 5.7 that makes it a 'must-have' caliber.

This dovetails into the next point: there is nothing about any modern fighting pistol caliber that makes it head and shoulders above another. However, back in the late 80's when I started, there were several calibers that were definitely lacking.

For instance, 9mm. They worked hard on practical applications, but the metallurgy and computer modelling wasn't there yet. As a result, there was a steady stream of failures. Or, people carrying FMJ / ball rounds, and complaining about terminal effects (with, good reason in many applications).

Now, bullet technology has made leaps and bounds. Looking at real-world terminal effects, and tons of various types of testing, a 9mm is now so close to .40 and .45 there's really not a difference that makes any difference (lol)

(In simpler terms, new tech didn't make 9 BETTER than 40/45/10, it brought it UP to where it was an equal, more or less)

When effects are similar enough, then you can ethically look at other petals of the flower, like capacity, platforms, accessories, operation and cost-per-round.

In the first three cases, they are pretty dang similar now, as well. This leaves cost per initial platform purchase, and cost per round of duty and training ammo. Currently, 9mm is a NATO standard round, and it is everywhere, and plentiful, and relatively inexpensive versus say 10mm (or, 5.7).

It is in the pipeline, it is something that has a long history, and the platforms are fairly mature and robust now.

Far as operation, when you are in a small unit, you can diversify. Again, when you are outfitting a 5'6" 95 pound female and a 6'5" 300 pound male, 1100 of them at a time, you have to pick things that work sort of well for the greatest percentile.

This is not just my opinion; people who really balance on the point of the spear, and can have anything they want, are bellwethers for me. Look at Naval special warfare, Marine special operations, and other organic shooter organizations. Lots of Glock 19's. Police agencies? The 17 and 22 fit the same holster, there are probably 17 mags and 9mm ammo already in the pipeline; easy to switch into.

Is it the 'best' handgun round? Depends on what best is? Best for an Olympic shooter is different than best for a person detailed to carry a firearm, that you don't invest a lot of training time or money into, or want a lot of disuniformity in firearm choices.

I switched back to 9 for (dirtbag security guard) duty carry. I can carry literally anything I want here. I don't feel undergunned with current platforms or caliber. If I thought I was going to get in a shootout tomorrow, I wouldn't be ratcheting up my pistol, either (except maybe making sure I was carrying a fullsize and more magazines). I'd be in plates and a carbine.
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 1:18:59 AM EST
There are agencies that got the 5.7. They started having shootings with it and the performance was sorely lacking.

Dr Gary Roberts has written about the round. He's not impressed with it.

I think the .40 is a good round but it's more expensive and I've trained shooters on the range who struggled with it. I didn't have enough ammo to get them proficient with it.

Most shooters will have more problems shooting the .40 over the .45. The .40 is a lot more "snappy" with more muzzle flip while the .45, being a slower round, is more of a backwards "push". If I had to choose a general issue round for a bunch of people and I could only choose the .40 or .45, I'd choose the .45. It's easier to shoot. However, If I wasn't restricted to caliber choice, I'd pick the 9mm as a general issue load.
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 1:27:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 7:09:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2018 7:10:37 AM EST by bruh44]
My agency only offers 9, 40 or 45. I shoot 9 because it does perform better than the other two. If you have the option 357 Sig out performs all three. Faster and better energy transfer.
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 9:23:03 AM EST
It's pretty much a wash across the popular calibers. Go with the one that allows you the most hits and the best budget.

That said, anyone that champions 5.7 as a duty round has a screw loose.
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 5:21:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2018 9:03:26 PM EST by Bowhntr6pt]
We went with 9mm. Not disappointed.
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 10:11:42 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By John-in-austin:
It's pretty much a wash across the popular calibers. Go with the one that allows you the most hits and the best budget.

That said, anyone that champions 5.7 as a duty round has a screw loose.
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So I'm told the 9mm is best because of how fast it is going! The FBI test show now after 30+ years it is the better caliber! Can your 9mm defeat your body armor? I know the 5.7 can!

Don't sell yourself cheap the ammo is cheaper and people who don't shot can handle it easier! That is why the 9mm is over the 5.7! After all, it's about how well you can hit your target is it not?
Link Posted: 8/1/2018 10:14:42 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt:
We went with 9mm. Not disappointed.
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Would your department have said that in the 1980's?

If they have changed since then gone to the 40 now 9mm! They are FBI fans!
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 12:25:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2018 12:33:55 AM EST by ColtRifle]
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Originally Posted By tayous1:

So I'm told the 9mm is best because of how fast it is going! The FBI test show now after 30+ years it is the better caliber! Can your 9mm defeat your body armor? I know the 5.7 can!

Don't sell yourself cheap the ammo is cheaper and people who don't shot can handle it easier! That is why the 9mm is over the 5.7! After all, it's about how well you can hit your target is it not?
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No idea who's telling you this stuff or if you are coming up with this yourself.

Armor penetrating 9mm ammo exists. Doesn't mean it's an ideal round for LE or defensive purposes.

What's the reason you are pushing so hard for the 5.7?

You need to study terminal ballistics. Plenty of information has been posted in this thread so far. Do some Google searching for awhile.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 12:32:41 AM EST
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Originally Posted By tayous1:

Would your department have said that in the 1980's?

If they have changed since then gone to the 40 now 9mm! They are FBI fans!
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Unsure of what point you are trying to make.

The 9BPLE round has an excellent track record in real life shootings and has been around for a very long time. It doesn't meet the FBI specs but does work very well in real life. There are even better rounds available now.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 6:35:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2018 6:48:41 AM EST by Bowhntr6pt]
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Originally Posted By ColtRifle:

Unsure of what point you are trying to make.

The 9BPLE round has an excellent track record in real life shootings and has been around for a very long time. It doesn't meet the FBI specs but does work very well in real life. There are even better rounds available now.
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He has no idea what he's talking about.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 6:51:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2018 7:00:54 AM EST by SteelonSteel]
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Originally Posted By tayous1:
5.7 can defeat body armor can the 9mm? So there is a + for it I can hold more of this body armor defeating ammo then I can with a 9mm. Again another+ to this round! Recoil should be less I myself never shot it. So more rounds on target faster then the 9mm!

What the 9mm has the advantage is cost and only cost!

Good as I said if you can hit better with a 9mm take it! No flame you're picking the caliber you shot best with and can get more hits on target nothing wrong with that at all!

I'm talking more about people who switch to 9mm due to FBI test!

Agree but so so many Office don't think about the use your pistol to fight to your rifle! Much less don't believe take a bigger gun when a firearm is involved!

So I will argue a 100+-year-old round was just made effective? So why is this cutting edge bullet that makes a 100+-year-old round better only singled to the 9mm?

So this new bullet does not help the 40 or 45 or any other caliber just the 9mm!? So the Gods smiled on the 9mm and said this is the caliber of us!???

Sorry, don't believe that one at all! It's a 100+-year-old caliber and if it was not cheap to make and allowed officers to score better it would have been cast aside a long time ago!

Again tell me how the 9mm is better then the 5.7x28? Other then cost!
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Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
Do you actually think the 5.7 is a better round than the 9mm?

The 9mm is working quite well in police shootings. My officers' last shooting it worked quite well. Dropped him like a rock.

Alternatively, I worked a homicide last year where the suspect hit the victim with .380 ball in the hip. Travelled up the victim's torso and hit all the vital shit and killed him.

All bullets can be lethal but some are more suited to defensive use. The 9mm works just fine for LE uses. Since it's the cheapest ammo out there, aside from .22LR, it allows departments to get more ammo for their meager training budgets. That's important.
5.7 can defeat body armor can the 9mm? So there is a + for it I can hold more of this body armor defeating ammo then I can with a 9mm. Again another+ to this round! Recoil should be less I myself never shot it. So more rounds on target faster then the 9mm!

What the 9mm has the advantage is cost and only cost!

Originally Posted By TexasDoubleTap:
If I can't hit shit with a .40 standing in perfect conditions on a range, I'm going to get murdered in any real threatening situation.

Knowing I can reliably hit what I want with a 9mm on the same range, allows me to train. Do things to get my heart rate up and simulate a threatening situation.

Want to know a dirty secret? I've never even shot a .45 pistol. None of my friends have one.

9mm master race in my hood.
Good as I said if you can hit better with a 9mm take it! No flame you're picking the caliber you shot best with and can get more hits on target nothing wrong with that at all!

I'm talking more about people who switch to 9mm due to FBI test!

Originally Posted By Natty_Bumppo:
It’s been my experience that when shit goes south you're stuck with what’s at hand. You're kitted our AR or 870 are better weapons but not if they’re safely locked in your car when the rounds are coming your way.
Agree but so so many Office don't think about the use your pistol to fight to your rifle! Much less don't believe take a bigger gun when a firearm is involved!

Originally Posted By high_order1:
OP

This has been beaten to death in the other rooms of this forum.

Like the others have alluded to, handguns were invented as a compromised system for those not wanting to carry a long gun. Having said that, there are calibers that are less successful than others, when all the factors are tallied.

Current 9mm bullet offerings are better than they were in 1990. When you factor that in, plus round count, the larger number of people who, for whatever reason can qualify with a 9mm better than with other calibers, plus per-round training costs, plus platform variation and availability, 9mm is the peak of compromise.

Some don't. But in a liability-conscious, let's do what the Big Boys do kind of career field, there are better things to be mad about than the tide change to 9mm.

I started out in the late 80's with Level I soft body armor and a .38 revolver. I can't wait to see what I finally end up with!
So I will argue a 100+-year-old round was just made effective? So why is this cutting edge bullet that makes a 100+-year-old round better only singled to the 9mm?

So this new bullet does not help the 40 or 45 or any other caliber just the 9mm!? So the Gods smiled on the 9mm and said this is the caliber of us!???

Sorry, don't believe that one at all! It's a 100+-year-old caliber and if it was not cheap to make and allowed officers to score better it would have been cast aside a long time ago!

Again tell me how the 9mm is better then the 5.7x28? Other then cost!
The 5.7 goes through body armor as aseloing point to police? Nope nope nope. In any violent encounter there is a gun present. The police issued gun. More than one has been wrestled away and the cop was shot with his own gun. All body armor issued is normally at least minimum amount to protect from their own issues gun.

5.7 is not going to hit the streets in regular police patrol fashion.

The 5.7 could almost be called the .22 hornet rimless.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 6:51:28 AM EST
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Originally Posted By tayous1:

They are FBI fans!
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At least I work for a real LE agency... and our switch had nothing to do with the FBI.

Don't you have some real crime fighting to do?
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 6:57:10 AM EST
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Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
The 5.7 is a novelty round. In the right loading it does penetrate soft body armor. So does 5.56. How common is body armor on bad guys? We have had a bunch of incidents where body armor stolen from officers vehicles in my area.....Still haven't seen a bad guy wearing it. Recovered one in a search warrant. It was tossed in a corner with a bunch of trash. Body armor on bad guys is incredibly rare. And, if you come upon it, use your rifle or take head shots with your pistol. You are training to fire more than one round in a shootout right?

Unlike the 5.55, the 5.7 has shitty terminal ballistics. Of course it can kill people. So can the .22 LR. One of the homicides I worked last year the victim received one shot to the hip with a FMJ .380. Crossed his torso and hit vital shit. DRT. Doesn't mean I'm gonna advocate for issuing FMJ .380 to officers as a duty load.

The FBI's push for 10mm and then the development of the .40 was an over reaction to the FBI's Miami shootout. That's where my disagreement with the FBI's standard comes from. Basically they demanded a round that might have worked in that scenario.....So basically they designed a protocol around one shooting. Further research seems to have convinced them that they need to take another look at the 9 mm.

My department had a shooting last year. Suspect was injured but didn't die. 9mm 147 grain Winchester Ranger. Non vital hit. Of course he didn't drop like a rock. This year we had another shooting. Same bullet. Several vital hits. DRT. Placement is everything.

Training for departments is a huge deal. Departments don't get enough. When your choice is gas in the cars or training ammo....guess which one you get? I'd rather have officers who can hit with a 9 mm than officers who can't hit the broad side of a barn with something bigger.
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Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By floridacop:
tayous1, a lot of us are carrying .40 caliber because our agency jumped on the FBI bandwagon back in the 90's. I hope we go to 9mm where I work as we are looking at it.
Why not 5.7x28 then? More ammo less recoil and can defeat body armor! So it is superior to the 9mm! So has no one switched to that?

Your department is doing it for one resin and that is money! It's cheaper to buy 9mm not that its better!
The 5.7 is a novelty round. In the right loading it does penetrate soft body armor. So does 5.56. How common is body armor on bad guys? We have had a bunch of incidents where body armor stolen from officers vehicles in my area.....Still haven't seen a bad guy wearing it. Recovered one in a search warrant. It was tossed in a corner with a bunch of trash. Body armor on bad guys is incredibly rare. And, if you come upon it, use your rifle or take head shots with your pistol. You are training to fire more than one round in a shootout right?

Unlike the 5.55, the 5.7 has shitty terminal ballistics. Of course it can kill people. So can the .22 LR. One of the homicides I worked last year the victim received one shot to the hip with a FMJ .380. Crossed his torso and hit vital shit. DRT. Doesn't mean I'm gonna advocate for issuing FMJ .380 to officers as a duty load.

The FBI's push for 10mm and then the development of the .40 was an over reaction to the FBI's Miami shootout. That's where my disagreement with the FBI's standard comes from. Basically they demanded a round that might have worked in that scenario.....So basically they designed a protocol around one shooting. Further research seems to have convinced them that they need to take another look at the 9 mm.

My department had a shooting last year. Suspect was injured but didn't die. 9mm 147 grain Winchester Ranger. Non vital hit. Of course he didn't drop like a rock. This year we had another shooting. Same bullet. Several vital hits. DRT. Placement is everything.

Training for departments is a huge deal. Departments don't get enough. When your choice is gas in the cars or training ammo....guess which one you get? I'd rather have officers who can hit with a 9 mm than officers who can't hit the broad side of a barn with something bigger.
Gas for the cars? We are lucky to have cars. Half our fleet is over ten years old and full of rust holes like a jalopy. They’re dropping like flies like admin pukes on a August road march like when I was in the infantry.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 7:13:35 AM EST
You say you don't hate the 9mm, but you sure seem to have a chip on your shoulder for it.

Statistically, pistols all suck. We agree on that.

The real question here isnt which one sucks the least. The question is, which one am I most likely to make the most hits with under pressure?

The way I look at it it's this: 9mm gives me smaller guns with less recoil that carry more rounds. They penetrate enough to hit vitals and CNS. So do. 40, .45, etc.

The difference in size after impact isnt as important as making hits, especially hits to important things.

Some think that larger rounds are better at improving those chances, some think more shots does that.

Shrug. Use what you like but you can't say you don't have a problem with 9mm, because you have spent a lot of time arguing against it. At the end of the day, the only things that matter are hits, location of hits, and penetration. All of the major cals can penetrate enough with proper self defense loads.

It's just personal preference in trade offs at that point.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 7:35:45 AM EST
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Originally Posted By SteelonSteel:

Gas for the cars? We are lucky to have cars. Half our fleet is over ten years old and full of rust holes like a jalopy. They’re dropping like flies like admin pukes on a August road march like when I was in the infantry.
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So you're saying your department isn't falling over themselves to buy the 5.7? Who would have thought?

Link Posted: 8/2/2018 7:36:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2018 7:38:41 AM EST by ColtRifle]
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Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt:

He has no idea what he's talking about.
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Unfortunately, neither do I.

But, that's kind of a given considering who the OP is...

Link Posted: 8/2/2018 1:50:26 PM EST
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Originally Posted By tayous1:

So I'm told the 9mm is best because of how fast it is going! The FBI test show now after 30+ years it is the better caliber! Can your 9mm defeat your body armor? I know the 5.7 can!

Don't sell yourself cheap the ammo is cheaper and people who don't shot can handle it easier! That is why the 9mm is over the 5.7! After all, it's about how well you can hit your target is it not?
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And the 5.7 is issued as the primary sidearm of how many agencies in the US? Worldwide?

7.62/.308 is more expensive than 5.56/.223, so it must be the better round for general issue too than the cheap 5.56/.223, correct?

Here's something to consider, if you are worried about body armor, start considering plates. Have you noticed the up tick in incidents of suspects wearing plates? What is your 5.7 going to do against those.

Also almost every sentence in your post ended in a ! and the two that didn't ended in a ?. Does that mean the . is the weakest punctuation and you refuse to adopt it or use it. It just doesn't end the sentence with the same power as other punctuation marks.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 2:22:12 PM EST
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Originally Posted By floridacop:

Also almost every sentence in your post ended in a ! and the two that didn't ended in a ?. Does that mean the . is the weakest punctuation and you refuse to adopt it or use it. It just doesn't end the sentence with the same power as other punctuation marks.
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Don't know if you are in a supervisor position but either way......How would you like to review his reports? I would hope he doesn't write reports like that but if he does, there is some supervisor out there pulling his/her hair out.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 2:49:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2018 3:05:10 PM EST by floridacop]
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Originally Posted By ColtRifle:

Don't know if you are in a supervisor position but either way......How would you like to review his reports? I would hope he doesn't write reports like that but if he does, there is some supervisor out there pulling his/her hair out.
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In my case, I'm a Lieutenant and would thank the lord above that I have 2 Sergeants under me. They're smart though and eventually they would say they need stress leave.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 4:18:34 PM EST
For years OP has demonstrated horrible writing skills and odd judgment/thinking... he should focus more on improving in those areas vs. why agencies switched to 9mm.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 5:07:12 PM EST
Yeah the FBI had the right idea with the awesome 10mm caliber after the 9mm failed them. However they quickly learned that many of their paper/pencil pushing agents, who may also be female, and may not train often, that the full power 10mm loads were just too much recoil to handle for them. So they watered it down to the 10mm light loads, which worked fine. Later on they came up with the 40S&W which had the same power of the 10mm light loads and could be put into smaller 9mm frames for people with smaller hands to grasp the firearm better. And of course that was the standard for a long time. But now with bullets being better, it's proven that 9mm is almost as good as 40S&W now, but still with less recoil and more ammo capacity. The 40S&W basically is pretty much obsolete now. But the 10mm with full power loads still is awesome if you can handle it. Not everyone can. I love my Glock 20 10mm, but then again I'm a big dude and shoot a lot. It would be my choice for a duty gun. The vast majority of people would be better served with a Glock 19 9mm no doubt about it.
Link Posted: 8/2/2018 8:09:11 PM EST
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Originally Posted By floridacop:

http://media.giphy.com/media/EmB4QtACPVBpS/giphy.gif

In my case, I'm a Lieutenant and would thank the lord above that I have 2 Sergeants under me. They're smart though and eventually they would say they need stress leave.
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