User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 11:23:25 AM EDT
You can find info all over the place related to the incident, however info related to the damage repairs seems to be harder to come by. Is there any documentation or videos to be found related to repair of the structural damage from the collision and the fire on multiple floors.
I am curious how they would have repaired the structural steel, and the buildings facade. Is the repair work at the impact point still discernible from the original building structure.  Empire State Building Plane Crash - 1945 |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 11:28:49 AM EDT
[#1]
Tagging for replies.
Interesting questions, OP. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 11:31:48 AM EDT
[#2]
Read the book: "The Sky is Falling"----good account of the crash and what happened. . . Elevator girl almost drowned when she was pinned by wreckage in elevator after it free-feel into the basement and FDNY was poring water into the building to fight the fire. . .
ETA: IIRC, they do mention, in the book, that there is/was some discernible color variation to the limestone facade where the plane hit---but it's way up, most likely too high to be noticed from the street. . . |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 11:55:56 AM EDT
[#3]
Hmmm, I never knew about that or heard about it. Interesting.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 12:00:26 PM EDT
[#4]
Interesting
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 12:02:25 PM EDT
[#5]
Avgas can't melt steel beams.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 12:03:54 PM EDT
[#6]
Does anybody know of any photos of the plane during its career? Could be an interesting modeling subject.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 12:04:44 PM EDT
[#7]
The ESB is an old-school high-rise. Unlike the WTC which had a steel skeleton and curtain walls, the ESB is almost solid concrete. From my research, the crash of the B-25 did not compromise the structural integrity of the ESB.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 12:18:21 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Avgas can't melt steel beams. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Avgas can't melt steel beams. Quoted:
The ESB is an old-school high-rise. Unlike the WTC which had a steel skeleton and curtain walls, the ESB is almost solid concrete. From my research, the crash of the B-25 did not compromise the structural integrity of the ESB. have just gutted the building back to rivet joints and replaced those? |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 12:30:33 PM EDT
[#9]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 12:35:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Back then the probably reheated the steel formed and pounded back in place.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 12:36:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 12:38:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Note the brickwork above/behind FF in 1st pic...
Penetration into elevator/utility shafts... (Note the B-25 tire/rim) 
"Workmen erect scaffolding on the 33rd Street Side of the Empire State Building as reconstruction work on the skyscraper begins. In spite of the damage the structure suffered when a B-25 crashed between the 78th and 79th stories, the world's tallest building was open today (July 30th), two days after the tragic accident." 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 12:39:39 PM EDT
[#14]
I knew of this, and it was the first thing I thought of on 9/11....figured it was an accident somehow, until I heard about the Pentagon, and saw the second plane hit on TV...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 12:44:11 PM EDT
[#15]
 B-25 Bomber Hits Empire State Building (1945) |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 1:03:04 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does anybody know of any photos of the plane during its career? Could be an interesting modeling subject. Wikipedia says it was called "Old John Feather Merchant" registration number 41-30577. Maybe that's a jumping off point for some research. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 1:05:34 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Note the brickwork above/behind FF in 1st pic... http://images.mentalfloss.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_640x430/public/esb_wall_primary.jpg http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/328309/slide_328309_3188159_free.jpg Penetration into elevator/utility shafts... (Note the B-25 tire/rim) http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/328309/slide_328309_3188122_free.jpg "Workmen erect scaffolding on the 33rd Street Side of the Empire State Building as reconstruction work on the skyscraper begins. In spite of the damage the structure suffered when a B-25 crashed between the 78th and 79th stories, the world's tallest building was open today (July 30th), two days after the tragic accident." https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/75/be/e6/75bee68569f944f29cc676f2360926ac.jpg http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/328309/slide_328309_3188123_free.jpg Safety lines and hard hats are for pussies. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 1:21:23 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wikipedia says it was called "Old John Feather Merchant" registration number 41-30577. Maybe that's a jumping off point for some research. That serial number is for a B-25D-20. The -20 was the production block number at North American. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 1:44:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Wow... I beams encased in reenforced concrete. Literally built like a brick shit house.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 1:51:49 PM EDT
[#20]
I've always been interested in this crash (I had a post about it a few years ago).
What a tragedy for the Perna family. Albert Perna was getting a ride home on the B-25 to help his parents deal with the loss of his brother Anthony (Killed when the Destroyer Luce was sunk). Albert was an Aviation Machinist's Mate Second Class. Then you've got Betty Lou Oliver's day! 
19yr old elevator operator who has an engine land on HER elevator and gets burned pretty bad. People in the building give her first aid for the burns and then put her in another elevator for the 79 story ride down to the street. The cables were damaged on this one though and it promptly crashes all the way down (Express elevator to hell anyone?!). She was a tough kiddo I guess. 
http://survivor-story.com/betty-lou-oliver-survived-two-major-accidents-day/ |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 2:14:17 PM EDT
[#22]
Fascinating story. I am surprised, it is not a well known event.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 2:14:29 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This place never fails... Ask a weird, obscure question and someone answers in a little over an hour with all sorts of fascinating pictures... I am amazed that this is such an unknown subject. I have known this since I was a young boy (I had never seen the ESB until I was about 14). But I think that was only because my fathers side has had family in NYC since it was founded. That building is a steel framed masonry building. It will take a hit like that and shrug it off like a champ. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 2:28:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fascinating story. I am surprised, it is not a well known event. It is to most New Yorkers or used to be. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 2:33:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Anybody else reading these captions in an old-timey newsreel announcer voice?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 2:37:09 PM EDT
[#26]
I hope it's not going to be o e of those forgotten parts of our past, but sadly it will be as to about war and to some we were wrong, so we need to rewrite about it. Fucking progressives.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 2:38:42 PM EDT
[#27]
One of the engines went all the way through and out the other side of the building.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 2:43:50 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am amazed that this is such an unknown subject. I have known this since I was a young boy (I had never seen the ESB until I was about 14). But I think that was only because my fathers side has had family in NYC since it was founded. That building is a steel framed masonry building. It will take a hit like that and shrug it off like a champ. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 2:45:52 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow... I beams encased in reenforced concrete. Literally built like a brick shit house. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow... I beams encased in reenforced concrete. Literally built like a brick shit house. All the old commercial buildings in NYC were built like that, must have been code. I worked in a power plant where the structure build was completed in 1917, all the beams were encased in concrete. The structure is still in use today & being a fossil fueled electric/steam generating plant there have been more than a few explosions/fires in it over the years. Quoted:
Avgas can't melt steel beams. Also I think the ESB has a roof water tank, if the WTC had one I think it would not have collapsed as the water flowing through the sprinkler pipe (even the severed pipes) would have significantly cooled the structure preventing the meltdown of the beams, but we'll never know. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 2:56:06 PM EDT
[#30]
I never knew about that.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 3:00:18 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I am amazed that this is such an unknown subject. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 3:04:07 PM EDT
[#32]
another ESB fun fact
The extra 200 feet, it was announced, was to serve as a mooring mast for dirigibles so that they could dock in Midtown, rather than out in Lakehurst, N.J., the station used by the German Graf Zeppelin. Mr. Smith said that at the Empire State Building, airships like the Graf, almost 800 feet long, would “swing in the breeze and the passengers go down a gangplank”; seven minutes later they would be on the street. 
turns out fake trolling back in the day http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/26/realestate/26scapes.html |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 3:10:11 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes--the ESB is a pain to work in as far as office furniture is concerned---because the relatively small floor plates are filled with beams. . . The old World Trade Center was renowned for it's "open plan" design---didn't have all those pesky beams on the floor. . the floors were supported by the curtain wall, and the core structure in middle. . .but that makes it susceptible to damage from the attack it suffered on 9/11. . .but when it was designed, no one was thinking about that even remotely. . All these "fire cant melt steel" idiots. It didn't have to "melt" it. The way the WTC was built was ingenious, But it was the reason it failed so spectacularly, and one of the only reasons so "relatively" few people were killed that day. The floors were supported by ledge type bracketry (Simple terms) at the outer wall and inner core. The strength of the building was quite literally the outer shell and the inner core was the spine. When the fuel fed fire became hot enough to compromise the strength of the spans holding the floors up, the spans began to settle until they separated from the ledgers. The building literally fell in on itself like a piston pushing down a in a hydraulic cylinder. Once the weakened floors hit the stronger undamaged floors it started pulling the outer structure inward to the core. Basically the buildings collapsed in on themselves and rammed themselves into their own basements for the most part. Had they fell over, shit would have been much worse. That's what the terrorists were hoping for. In that aspect, those buildings design saved a lot of lives in the way they failed.... or didn't. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 3:12:41 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fascinating story. I am surprised, it is not a well known event. We all knew about it and voted (almost) unanimously not to tell you... 
1 abstention |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 4:16:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Wow! Could you imagine waking a gangplank from a tehered zepplin down to a tiny deck at the top of the ESB?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 4:57:12 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anybody else reading these captions in an old-timey newsreel announcer voice? Yep 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 5:21:13 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All these "fire cant melt steel" idiots. It didn't have to "melt" it. The way the WTC was built was ingenious, But it was the reason it failed so spectacularly, and one of the only reasons so "relatively" few people were killed that day. The floors were supported by ledge type bracketry (Simple terms) at the outer wall and inner core. The strength of the building was quite literally the outer shell and the inner core was the spine. When the fuel fed fire became hot enough to compromise the strength of the spans holding the floors up, the spans began to settle until they separated from the ledgers. The building literally fell in on itself like a piston pushing down a in a hydraulic cylinder. Once the weakened floors hit the stronger undamaged floors it started pulling the outer structure inward to the core. Basically the buildings collapsed in on themselves and rammed themselves into their own basements for the most part. Had they fell over, shit would have been much worse. That's what the terrorists were hoping for. In that aspect, those buildings design saved a lot of lives in the way they failed.... or didn't. BuildnBurn |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 5:58:17 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow! Could you imagine waking a gangplank from a tehered zepplin down to a tiny deck at the top of them ESB? No! |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 6:05:25 PM EDT
[#39]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 7:08:56 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryNo fucking way in hell would *I* be out on that scaffolding! 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 7:18:50 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All these "fire cant melt steel" idiots. It didn't have to "melt" it. The way the WTC was built was ingenious, But it was the reason it failed so spectacularly, and one of the only reasons so "relatively" few people were killed that day. The floors were supported by ledge type bracketry (Simple terms) at the outer wall and inner core. The strength of the building was quite literally the outer shell and the inner core was the spine. When the fuel fed fire became hot enough to compromise the strength of the spans holding the floors up, the spans began to settle until they separated from the ledgers. The building literally fell in on itself like a piston pushing down a in a hydraulic cylinder. Once the weakened floors hit the stronger undamaged floors it started pulling the outer structure inward to the core. Basically the buildings collapsed in on themselves and rammed themselves into their own basements for the most part. Had they fell over, shit would have been much worse. That's what the terrorists were hoping for. In that aspect, those buildings design saved a lot of lives in the way they failed.... or didn't. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 7:34:46 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fascinating story. I am surprised, it is not a well known event. If you're an airplane nerd or a building nerd then it is. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 7:48:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes--the ESB is a pain to work in as far as office furniture is concerned---because the relatively small floor plates are filled with beams. . . The old World Trade Center was renowned for it's "open plan" design---didn't have all those pesky beams on the floor. . the floors were supported by the curtain wall, and the core structure in middle. . .but that makes it susceptible to damage from the attack it suffered on 9/11. . .but when it was designed, no one was thinking about that even remotely. . Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I am amazed that this is such an unknown subject. I have known this since I was a young boy (I had never seen the ESB until I was about 14). But I think that was only because my fathers side has had family in NYC since it was founded. That building is a steel framed masonry building. It will take a hit like that and shrug it off like a champ. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 7:50:20 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You know it's an internet joke right? http://cdn.funnyisms.com/d333a3c1-dba2-4b58-bec9-ee4061042c98.jpg You do know that there are nuts that believe that internet joke. Right? |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 7:54:54 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I knew of this, and it was the first thing I thought of on 9/11....figured it was an accident somehow, until I heard about the Pentagon, and saw the second plane hit on TV... I was the same way. In fact, we first saw the TV footage live in my high school history class. The teacher asked us if we thought this would be a historically significant moment, and I said to myself, "no", because I remembered the ESB incident when almost nobody else did. At that point only one plane had hit. Boy was I wrong. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 8:41:36 PM EDT
[#46]
When my father was a child, a military aircraft crashed in the woods near his home. He and his cousin were the first ones to the crash site. I asked him about it, but he had absolutely no interest in history of where we lived and would only act like I was an idiot asking about something that happened that long ago and never would go into any great detail about it other than they saw a big airplane on fire flying low and saw where it crashed in the woods. Shortly after my father died, I joined the Facebook page for the town I grew up in and an older gentlemen whose family I knew but I'd never met personally would tell stories about the area. I loved hearing his stories because many times he'd talk about things I'd heard my grandfather and father talk about in the old days. He was a little older than my dad, as well. One day he posted and talked about hearing an explosion and seeing a large military aircraft on fire and crashing into the woods, and he actually named my family's home when he described where it was flying over. I commented that my dad and cousin were the first at the crash site. He messaged me and told me he knew my dad and he still had a newspaper article about the crash. He asked for my email and said when he found it he would scan it to me. Unfortunately, he fell ill shortly afterwards and died before he could get the info to me.
Since my father had recently died, I really wanted to get details on it, but every google search on the subject came up with nothing. It was a big deal because all of the crew members were dead on the scene and the Air Force, or possibly still the Army Air Force sealed off the area almost immediately. This was probably in the late forties, and I know for sure it was shortly after WW2, just not exactly how long. I know it was a large plane because the gentleman I was messaging saw the badly burned fuselage when they hauled it out of the area a few weeks later. It was probably stationed at Brookley Field in Mobile, fairly close by. |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 9:09:33 PM EDT
[#47]
Listening to the narrator in the vid in OP's post .... I always wonder why people back in the 20's - 40's talked so weird.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/12/2017 10:05:35 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When my father was a child, a military aircraft crashed in the woods near his home. He and his cousin were the first ones to the crash site. I asked him about it, but he had absolutely no interest in history of where we lived and would only act like I was an idiot asking about something that happened that long ago and never would go into any great detail about it other than they saw a big airplane on fire flying low and saw where it crashed in the woods. Shortly after my father died, I joined the Facebook page for the town I grew up in and an older gentlemen whose family I knew but I'd never met personally would tell stories about the area. I loved hearing his stories because many times he'd talk about things I'd heard my grandfather and father talk about in the old days. He was a little older than my dad, as well. One day he posted and talked about hearing an explosion and seeing a large military aircraft on fire and crashing into the woods, and he actually named my family's home when he described where it was flying over. I commented that my dad and cousin were the first at the crash site. He messaged me and told me he knew my dad and he still had a newspaper article about the crash. He asked for my email and said when he found it he would scan it to me. Unfortunately, he fell ill shortly afterwards and died before he could get the info to me. Since my father had recently died, I really wanted to get details on it, but every google search on the subject came up with nothing. It was a big deal because all of the crew members were dead on the scene and the Air Force, or possibly still the Army Air Force sealed off the area almost immediately. This was probably in the late forties, and I know for sure it was shortly after WW2, just not exactly how long. I know it was a large plane because the gentleman I was messaging saw the badly burned fuselage when they hauled it out of the area a few weeks later. It was probably stationed at Brookley Field in Mobile, fairly close by. Ok, did a little more research and finally did find some information. It was a B-25 bomber as well, crashing in 1942. ARMY MEN KILLED IN CRASH IN ALABAMA. Mobile, Ala., June 4 (INS) -- Seven army men from Key Field, Meridian, Miss., were dead today, burned to death when their B-25 medium bomber crashed and caught fire in a wooded section of suburban Whistler. The victims were identified as: Lieut. E. F. HOGUE, pilot, Jackson, Miss. Lieut. JAMES THOMPSON, co-pilot, Marshfield, Mo. Staff Sgt. JOHN POYTHRESS, radio operator, Farmville, N.C. Pvt. DONALD DELAY. Corp. RICHARD DELAY, brothers, Gardner, Mass. Pvt. WILLIAM OCHES, Newton, Ill. Pvt. CHARLES HILL, Memphis, Tenn. Port Arthur News Texas 1942-06-04 |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/13/2017 2:13:04 AM EDT
[#49]
I had thought that the Empire State Building crash story was fascinating when I had first heard it. So much so, that I was planning on writing a novel based around it.
However, before I got very far, 9/11 happened and suddenly it didn't seem like such a great idea anymore, so I gave up on it.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/13/2017 2:29:31 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Safety lines and hard hats are for pussies. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Note the brickwork above/behind FF in 1st pic... http://images.mentalfloss.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_640x430/public/esb_wall_primary.jpg http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/328309/slide_328309_3188159_free.jpg Penetration into elevator/utility shafts... (Note the B-25 tire/rim) http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/328309/slide_328309_3188122_free.jpg "Workmen erect scaffolding on the 33rd Street Side of the Empire State Building as reconstruction work on the skyscraper begins. In spite of the damage the structure suffered when a B-25 crashed between the 78th and 79th stories, the world's tallest building was open today (July 30th), two days after the tragic accident." https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/75/be/e6/75bee68569f944f29cc676f2360926ac.jpg http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/328309/slide_328309_3188123_free.jpg Safety lines and hard hats are for pussies. 
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
