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Posted: 8/29/2005 6:45:53 AM EDT
www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/29/D8C9HB4O0.html

A gunman killed four people at a rural church in a small north Texas town, then held off police in an nine-hour standoff before apparently killing himself, officials said Monday.

At least one other person was wounded.

The gunman reportedly knocked on the door of the Sash Assembly of God church Sunday night, then started firing when the door was opened. Three people were shot, including the pastor, according to WFAA-TV in Dallas. It was not immediately clear if the pastor was the wounded person or one of the two dead.

Two women in a car outside the church were then shot and killed, police said.

"These two ladies, from what it appeared, happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time," Fannin County Sheriff Kenneth Moore said.

The man fled and was later tracked to his home near the church in Sash, an unincorporated community about 80 miles north of Dallas near the Oklahoma border.

Sheriff's deputies and a SWAT team surrounded the house, and after the long standoff police initially said the man surrendered just before 6 a.m.

However, when officers entered the home they found the man dead, Moore said.

"We have good reason to believe, based at what we see at the scene, that it was a self-inflicted gunshot wound," Moore said.

Moore said the motive for the shootings had not been determined.

The identities of the gunman and the people killed at the church were not released.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:49:02 AM EDT
The people at the church died as martyrs for Christianity (people being killed for their faith).

At least the killer had the decency to spare us all a long trial.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:50:05 AM EDT
Good thing we don't allow CCW in churches around here! That could never happen to people with that restriction in place.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:51:52 AM EDT
And yet there are still folks out there (none on this board I would hope) that feel "bad" about carrying emergency self-defense equipment with them to a religious service.

Stay packed people.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:52:43 AM EDT


<snip>

Two women in a car outside the church were then shot and killed, police said.

"These two ladies, from what it appeared, happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time," Fannin County Sheriff Kenneth Moore said.

<snip>

This always pisses me off. How on earth can one's own car in a church parking lot be "the wrong place"???
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:53:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dolomite:
And yet there are still folks out there (none on this board I would hope) that feel "bad" about carrying emergency self-defense equipment with them to a religious service.

Stay packed people.



i'm the guitarist for a 1200 member congregation- i always have my 226 and a spare mag
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 6:59:36 AM EDT
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I always carry in church.

I am not any more inclined to let some nutcase shoot up my church family than I am my normal family.

Whether some people wish to acknowledge it or not, churches ARE frequently victimized by robbers, thieves, and even violent people. A cross on the door is no protection against the evil intentions of evil men.

That is why I am the security for my church.

If someone wants to kill the members of my church, he has to get through me first.

Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:01:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
This always pisses me off. How on earth can one's own car in a church parking lot be "the wrong place"???



Indeed.

It is a sad thing when a person gunning down the innocent is referred to almost like a lightning strike.

I am really curious to know the motive of the shooting. I am also curious to know how the pastor got shot, whether he was the target, or he was shot when trying to intervene.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:03:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I always carry in church.

I am not any more inclined to let some nutcase shoot up my church family than I am my normal family.

Whether some people wish to acknowledge it or not, churches ARE frequently victimized by robbers, thieves, and even violent people. A cross on the door is no protection against the evil intentions of evil men.

That is why I am the security for my church.

If someone wants to kill the members of my church, he has to get through me first.




A big amen.

I pack every time I go (3 times a week). Some of the people that attend with me know I pack, and are appreciative.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:07:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
This always pisses me off. How on earth can one's own car in a church parking lot be "the wrong place"???



Indeed.

It is a sad thing when a person gunning down the innocent is referred to almost like a lightning strike.

I am really curious to know the motive of the shooting. I am also curious to know how the pastor got shot, whether he was the target, or he was shot when trying to intervene.



I don't think it's a dismissive comment really, or ment to be. The fact is that in her car in the parking lot was indeed a bad place to be just then. Doesn't mean it was normal, natural, or justified.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:07:03 AM EDT
Random crazy?
Crazy who hates Christians?
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:12:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 7:21:42 AM EDT by VaniB]
The argument of seperation of Church and State was made within the Texas CHL laws, and carrying in Church is now legal in Texas, when it was initially forbidden.

But seriously, how many Christians on their way to church on Sunday would exercise this right?
I certainly don't.

I guess everything is relative. Perhaps if ones Church were located on the wrong side of town, or, there was serious problems with particular members......

But perhaps it's would just be best to join another Church if one feels such fear.

EDIT: While I was posting this reply, a number of you in the mean time had posted that you do carry in Church. I do not think that this practice is wrong, but I am still never the less surprised to witness such a favorable response and read a majority here do feel the need.

I must be very fortunate for where I live, and that I feel no need or concerns to exercise this right in my Church.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:14:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VaniB:
The argument of seperation of Church and State was made within the Texas CHL laws, and carrying in Church is now legal in Texas, when it was initially forbidden.

But seriously, how many Christians on their way to church on Sunday would exercise this right?
I certainly don't.

I guess everything is relative. Perhaps if ones Church were located on the wrong side of town, or, there was serious problems with particulasr members......

But perhaps it's would just be best to join another Church if one feels such fear.



What an INCREDIBLY moronic statement, given the article you just, presumably, read. If you don't carry everywhere it's legal for you to carry, you may as well not carry at all.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:15:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VaniB:
The argument of seperation of Church and State was made within the Texas CHL laws, and carrying in Church is now legal in Texas, when it was initially forbidden.

But seriously, how many Christians on their way to church on Sunday would exercise this right?
I certainly don't.

I guess everything is relative. Perhaps if ones Church were located on the wrong side of town, or, there was serious problems with particulasr members......

But perhaps it's would just be best to join another Church if one feels such fear.



That statement qualifies you for an open handed slap on the back of the head. What does CCW have to do with fear? I don't "fear" Walmart, but I carry there. I don't 'fear' the gas station but I carry there. I don't receive a morning report of where I can expect to find trouble today, therefore I carry anywhere I am legally allowed to. You may do as you wish, but knock off the bullshit 'fear' comments.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:16:23 AM EDT
Church carry is a good idea. At the church I go to we have about 1,000 people per service. There are 4 single doors on each corner of the church. It would only take 8-10 ROPers to cover the doors and shoot up everyone in the place.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:22:47 AM EDT
Either this guy simply hated Christians or he REALLY objected to the wedding. Since no wedding was mentioned, I'm inclined to believe the former.

This is why as soon as I can legally CCW, I will do so everywhere I legally can and probably in a few places where it's verboten but won't get me arrested. I see no reason to go defenseless simply to convenience some criminal scumbag who doesn't limit himself to the constraints of society.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:28:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VaniB:
EDIT: While I was posting this reply, a number of you in the mean time had posted that you do carry in Church. I do not think that this practice is wrong, but I am still never the less surprised to witness such a favorable response and read a majority here do feel the need.

I must be very fortunate for where I live, and that I feel no need or concerns to exercise this right in my Church.



If you KNEW when you would need your gun, you could simply avoid that time and place and never need a gun. I carry a gun because I DON'T know when I will need it. Anyone who carries a gun only when they "think they might need it" shouldn't carry one at all.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:32:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 7:33:40 AM EDT by John_Wayne777]

Originally Posted By VaniB:
EDIT: While I was posting this reply, a number of you in the mean time had posted that you do carry in Church. I do not think that this practice is wrong, but I am still never the less surprised to witness such a favorable response and read a majority here do feel the need.

I must be very fortunate for where I live, and that I feel no need or concerns to exercise this right in my Church.



That is wonderful.

But I doubt your grandfather (a pastor for almost 50 years ) ever had someone stick a gun in his face as he was leaving church on Sunday night and demand that night's offerings.

I also doubt your Evangelism Director's brother ever had someone bust into the church and empty a gun at him during a Wed. night Bible study.

Churches, even in "good" neighborhoods look like a giant bullseye to some of the evil bastards that walk among us.

I don't like the fact that I have to worry about packing a roscoe in church. But even Jesus told His disciples to take a sword with them....

It rains on the just and the unjust. The .45 I have with me is my umbrella.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:34:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:

Originally Posted By VaniB:
EDIT: While I was posting this reply, a number of you in the mean time had posted that you do carry in Church. I do not think that this practice is wrong, but I am still never the less surprised to witness such a favorable response and read a majority here do feel the need.

I must be very fortunate for where I live, and that I feel no need or concerns to exercise this right in my Church.



If you KNEW when you would need your gun, you could simply avoid that time and place and never need a gun. I carry a gun because I DON'T know when I will need it. Anyone who carries a gun only when they "think they might need it" shouldn't carry one at all.



It has nothing to do with 'feeling' a need. As Rik said, if I knew I wouldn't go. I live in a great neighborhood, lots of people here leave their doors open (dumb but off topic) and feel no fear at all. There was gunfire the other night. My neighbors have never heard that in over 10 years of living there.... but none the less there it was. Never did find out what happened. Still it has nothing to do with what you 'feel'. I carry because I can and wherever I can. It's like my wallet. It just goes with me.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:39:48 AM EDT
RickWriter Quoted:



What an INCREDIBLY moronic statement, given the article you just, presumably, read. If you don't carry everywhere it's legal for you to carry, you may as well not carry at all.



I sense some serious aggression within your reply. Perhaps you have more serious underlying problems then simply just feeling a need for carrying a weapon everwhere?


I will leave this thread now, as I don't see the need to open myself to further negativity and abuse.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:45:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 7:46:08 AM EDT by NewbHunter]

Originally Posted By Dolomite:
And yet there are still folks out there (none on this board I would hope) that feel "bad" about carrying emergency self-defense equipment with them to a religious service.

Stay packed people.



Except if you live in WI because law enforcement won't let us excersice our legal right to CCW here...

Thanks a lot Doyle
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 7:58:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VaniB:
I sense some serious aggression within your reply.



Then your senses are as faulty as your logic. My reply was more along the lines of strained credulity.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:01:46 AM EDT
In SC the law allows carry with the permission of whoever is in charge.

Being prepared for exercising your right to defensive action, wherever you may be, is not paranoid, it's practical.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:03:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VaniB:
The argument of seperation of Church and State was made within the Texas CHL laws, and carrying in Church is now legal in Texas, when it was initially forbidden.

But seriously, how many Christians on their way to church on Sunday would exercise this right?
I certainly don't.

I guess everything is relative. Perhaps if ones Church were located on the wrong side of town, or, there was serious problems with particular members......

But perhaps it's would just be best to join another Church if one feels such fear.

EDIT: While I was posting this reply, a number of you in the mean time had posted that you do carry in Church. I do not think that this practice is wrong, but I am still never the less surprised to witness such a favorable response and read a majority here do feel the need.

I must be very fortunate for where I live, and that I feel no need or concerns to exercise this right in my Church.



What a strange post...one has no idea when or not he might need a gun. To argue that YOU dont need a gun at YOUR church after reading a story about a shooting in a church represents denial to the point of silliness.

Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:08:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VaniB:


I must be very fortunate for where I live, and that I feel no need or concerns to exercise this right in my Church.




These poor folks probably didn't either...
Now I don't feel so bad after seeing how many here carry to church. I always have-
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:08:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:15:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RikWriter:
What an INCREDIBLY moronic statement, given the article you just, presumably, read. If you don't carry everywhere it's legal for you to carry, you may as well not carry at all.



+1 that same argument is used by anti-gunners

odds are you will never need your pistol, but if it does happen you won't have time to go home and grab it.

Sheeple get the benefit from those who carry as crooks never know who is carrying and who isn't. If you don't carry, then you are relying on other people for your self defense.

Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:21:48 AM EDT
Hmmmmm and theres a long drawn out debate in the "pit" over whether small towns need SWAT teams.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:32:15 AM EDT
Arkansas does not allow carry in "places of worship" I am trying to get that changed the next time the leg meets, but unfortunately it takes me building a portfolio of tragedies like this to make my case

Anyone else has any links to stories please pass them my way.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:15:46 PM EDT
All the shootings did not occur inside the church. Any victims that were unarmed were only so becuase they chose to be.

Just having CCW permits avaible doesnt turn sheeple into sheep dogs.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:27:25 PM EDT
Perfectly legal to carry in church here unless the church has a sign that says not to.
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