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Posted: 9/29/2004 10:12:55 PM EST
I've got a buddy who's set on buying his very first two guns here shortly. He's done some research on his own an has come up with a hankering for an M4gery and a Glock 37. The M4 I've no problem with, altho he's pretty set on a Colt. But-I'm a Glock Hater. And I know next to nothing about the .45 GAP cartridge. Is it worth it? Edumacate me!!!
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:14:12 PM EST
A solution looking for a problem


SGatr15
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:15:20 PM EST
I'll stick with 45ACP. I like cheaper ammo
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:18:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2004 9:33:57 PM EST by warp_asylum]
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Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:21:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By warp_asylum:

Originally Posted By Taxman:
I'll stick with 45ACP. I like cheaper ammo



+1

Really, is there any reason to buy an auto in anything but .45ACP, .40S&W, and 9mm?



.22LR


Sgat1r5
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:22:36 PM EST
.45 gap beat the .45 acp in all tests.. nuff said
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:22:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:22:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By warp_asylum:

Originally Posted By Taxman:
I'll stick with 45ACP. I like cheaper ammo



+1

Really, is there any reason to buy an auto in anything but .45ACP, .40S&W, and 9mm?



Id like a 10mm, but GOOD LAWD ammo a lot of money.


I got pistols in 7.62x25 (supposed to be shipped soon) 9m Mak also.

Plus that P22 thing
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:23:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2004 9:34:06 PM EST by warp_asylum]
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Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:24:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By H3At:
.45 gap beat the .45 acp in all tests.. nuff said




SO does a 50bmg.

Whats your point?

You'll still be dead if I shoot you with a 45acp


SGat1r5
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:24:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 10:24:41 PM EST by Guns_N_Shizzle]
double post


Get a G20 instead
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:24:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By warp_asylum:

Originally Posted By Taxman:
I'll stick with 45ACP. I like cheaper ammo



+1

Really, is there any reason to buy an auto in anything but .45ACP?



.22LR


Sgat1r5



Fixed.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:25:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2004 9:34:20 PM EST by warp_asylum]
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Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:26:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2004 9:34:26 PM EST by warp_asylum]
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Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:28:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:29:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 10:31:39 PM EST by METT-T]
I've got a SigPro in .357 Sig. I shoot it half as much as my Para P13. Am I wrong to discourage the purchase of a .45 GAP?

Really, I haven't paid any attention to the round AT ALL. I'm ignorant. I've heard that's it's too expensive for what it is, but nothing else. How does it compare ballistically and shootability wise?

I guess that I'm saying that I've heard a lot of the same criticisms thrown towards the .357 Sig and the .45 GAP. But I like my Sig. I think it would be a good gun with which to shoot people need killin'.

'Course, I like my .45 too. I'm conflicted. Maybe I need help.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:35:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 10:36:05 PM EST by H3At]

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By H3At:
.45 gap beat the .45 acp in all tests.. nuff said




SO does a 50bmg.

Whats your point?

You'll still be dead if I shoot you with a 45acp


SGat1r5



That its beats the .45 acp!

But the only draw back is.. will it be popular as the .45 acp..... Time will tell
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:38:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2004 9:34:39 PM EST by warp_asylum]
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Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:38:18 PM EST
Wasnt it made for countries where civvies arent allowed to use military calibers?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:44:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 10:45:17 PM EST by Winston_Wolf]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:



Glock had been looking for a cartridge to put their name on for several years. It met no pressing need from the market.



... dingdingding

... like HTF is the 45GAP gonna really serve you better than a 45ACP?

... Not to sound the hypocrite, I just bought an FN Five-seveN, but it's not my first pistol ever purchased either. Tell your friend to read fewer books on various calibers and go shooting more often.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:48:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By Winston_Wolf:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:



Glock had been looking for a cartridge to put their name on for several years. It met no pressing need from the market.



... dingdingding

... like HTF is the 45GAP gonna really serve you better than a 45ACP?

... Not to sound the hypocrite, I just bought an FN Five-seveN, but it's not my first pistol ever purchased either. Tell your friend to read fewer books on various calibers and go shooting more often.



The guy ain't been shooting much, period. But I'd like to be able to tell him why the GAP isn't the best choice. Anybody ever shot one? Recoil? Muzzle flip? Terminal ballistics? I could go try and search this out but I trust the ARF hive brain.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:54:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/29/2004 10:55:57 PM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:56:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2004 9:34:49 PM EST by warp_asylum]
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Link Posted: 9/29/2004 10:58:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 11:04:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:
The concept behind .45 GAP is to have a load that duplicates .45ACP, but that fits in a 9mm-sized frame, so that folks with smaller hands can have .45 ballistics. And, it accomplishes this goal. The .45 GAP pistols are smaller and lighter than the .45 ACP versions too.



+1.

The reasons for the round are sound, and it appears to be all that it was advertised to be. But, because the market only wants one .45 pistol, and luddites (like many here) cling to calibers like old underwear, it takes tremendous market upheaval to see universal adoption of a new round (like the .40).

Short answer, it's a good round but it won't ever be cheap like .45acp.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 11:12:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:
The concept behind .45 GAP is to have a load that duplicates .45ACP, but that fits in a 9mm-sized frame, so that folks with smaller hands can have .45 ballistics. And, it accomplishes this goal. The .45 GAP pistols are smaller and lighter than the .45 ACP versions too.

Now, does that mean you want/need one? I dunno. If you have no problem with a Glock 21, then probably not. If the Glock 20/21 frame size is too big for you to handle comfortably, then possibly yes.

Of course, you must consider that .45 GAP isn't anywhere near as common as .45 ACP or .40 S&W, which are the two calibers that are closest in comparison.

-Troy




OK, problem solved. I'll just tell him the GAP is for pussies, and if he ain't a pussy, he won't get a GAP. Real men who want .45 ballistics shoot .45 ACP.

Link Posted: 9/29/2004 11:15:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2004 9:34:56 PM EST by warp_asylum]
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Link Posted: 9/29/2004 11:16:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By warp_asylum:

Originally Posted By METT-T:

OK, problem solved. I'll just tell him the GAP is for pussies, and if he ain't a pussy, he won't get a GAP. Real men who want .45 ballistics shoot .45 ACP.









Thats about it.


SGatr15
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 11:21:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By warp_asylum:

Originally Posted By METT-T:

OK, problem solved. I'll just tell him the GAP is for pussies, and if he ain't a pussy, he won't get a GAP. Real men who want .45 ballistics shoot .45 ACP.









Thats about it.


SGatr15



I'm not a pussy for owning a .357 Sig, tho, right? That actually fulfills a manly ballistic niche.

I mean, right? Fellas? State po-lice use 'em and all.

Right?
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 11:23:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By METT-T:

I'm not a pussy for owning a .357 Sig, tho, right? That actually fulfills a manly ballistic niche.

I mean, right? Fellas? State po-lice use 'em and all.

Right?



357sig kicks plenty hard. You're still a man, just a smaller diameter one that Sarge.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 11:26:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2004 9:35:03 PM EST by warp_asylum]
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Link Posted: 9/29/2004 11:31:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By H3At:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By H3At:
.45 gap beat the .45 acp in all tests.. nuff said




SO does a 50bmg.

Whats your point?

You'll still be dead if I shoot you with a 45acp


SGat1r5



That its beats the .45 acp!

But the only draw back is.. will it be popular as the .45 acp..... Time will tell



Yeah, it beat the .45 ACP in tests put on by Glock.
Link Posted: 9/29/2004 11:45:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By swingset:

Originally Posted By METT-T:

I'm not a pussy for owning a .357 Sig, tho, right? That actually fulfills a manly ballistic niche.

I mean, right? Fellas? State po-lice use 'em and all.

Right?



357sig kicks plenty hard. You're still a man, just a smaller diameter one that Sarge.



Cool. Half again as long, tho, I hear.

So I'm going to be like ".45...GAP????? Automatic Colt Pistol, BITCH!!!!"

OK, I'm giving up my drunken attempt to replace the sear spring on this fucking Ruger Standard Model and am going to bed.

Thanks for all the input.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 12:28:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 12:35:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By METT-T:
I'm not a pussy for owning a .357 Sig, tho, right? That actually fulfills a manly ballistic niche.



Umm....

The .357SIG is REALLY the round without a purpose. The best 9mm loadings give identical (!) terminal ballistic performance as the best .357SIG loadings, but hold more ammo. .40 S&W gives better terminal ballistic performance with the same capacity. The .357 SIG generates more flash, blast, and muzzle rise than either of the other two, so followup shots are slower. Finally, the .357 SIG isn't measurably more accurate than the others.

The whole project was based on the very flawed premise that the .357 Mag (which the .357SIG was trying to copy) was a super-duper performer. It really isn't. It's reputation was earned during the 50s-70s, when it was the best performer of the FOUR common police calibers (of which the first two made up over 85%):

- .38 Spl - 148gr LSWC
- .357Mag - 158gr SJHP
- 9mm - 124gr FMJ
- .45 ACP - 230gr FMJ

In this lineup, the .357Mag is the clear performance leader, though it still had plenty of failures to go along with the successes. But all of these loads are vastly eclipsed by modern 4th Gen hollowpoints of 9mm and above.

The .357Mag's advantage comes when using heavy bullets out of longer barrels for hunting. It can handle the heavier bullets to give much more penetration, which is important on larger or heavier-built animals, and the longer barrel and slower powder gives greatly increased usable range. Neither of those are really helpful for combat use, though.

-Troy



9's...yeah, they're cute.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 12:48:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2004 9:35:12 PM EST by warp_asylum]
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Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:17:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 1:19:44 AM EST by Troy]
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:26:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/2/2004 9:35:17 PM EST by warp_asylum]
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Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:47:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
A solution looking for a problem
SGatr15




The answer to the question that no one asked
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 7:11:00 AM EST
1. How does the .45 GAP (Gay Ass Pistol) outperform the .45ACP? By beating it by 50 fps or so? Will that make a damn bit of difference? Can't you just buy +P for the .45ACP? (I've personally chrono'd Hornady factory .45 ACP 230gr XTP at over 900fps.)

2. How does the .45 GAP allow for a "smaller grip"? Being shorter, it should, but have you compared the Glock frame to any single-stack 1911 frame? Not really any better, and actually worse if the 1911 has a flat mainspring housing.

3. The Glock 37 has a really retarded fat bastard slide about 1.15" wide. Put that in an inside-the-waistband holster & compare it to a 1911's 0.9" wide slide. Which will be more comfortable?

Read Alex Hamilton's article in the latest Am. Handgunner. He calls it a "dud". 'Nuff said.

Gaston Glock is a genious, but everyone makes mistakes.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 9:08:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 9:26:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By H3At:
.45 gap beat the .45 acp in all tests.. nuff said


Uhh, not what I've read. I've heard the 45GAP comes very close to 45ACP in performance.
But, these are ballistic gelatin test not street performance. I'm not going to even think
of this as a good defense round until I get some real world feedback.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 9:27:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/30/2004 9:28:23 AM EST by thelibertarian]

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By METT-T:
I'm not a pussy for owning a .357 Sig, tho, right? That actually fulfills a manly ballistic niche.



Umm....

The .357SIG is REALLY the round without a purpose. The best 9mm loadings give identical (!) terminal ballistic performance as the best .357SIG loadings, but hold more ammo. .40 S&W gives better terminal ballistic performance with the same capacity. The .357 SIG generates more flash, blast, and muzzle rise than either of the other two, so followup shots are slower. Finally, the .357 SIG isn't measurably more accurate than the others.

The whole project was based on the very flawed premise that the .357 Mag (which the .357SIG was trying to copy) was a super-duper performer. It really isn't. It's reputation was earned during the 50s-70s, when it was the best performer of the FOUR common police calibers (of which the first two made up over 85%):

- .38 Spl - 148gr LSWC
- .357Mag - 158gr SJHP
- 9mm - 124gr FMJ
- .45 ACP - 230gr FMJ

In this lineup, the .357Mag is the clear performance leader, though it still had plenty of failures to go along with the successes. But all of these loads are vastly eclipsed by modern 4th Gen hollowpoints of 9mm and above.

The .357Mag's advantage comes when using heavy bullets out of longer barrels for hunting. It can handle the heavier bullets to give much more penetration, which is important on larger or heavier-built animals, and the longer barrel and slower powder gives greatly increased usable range. Neither of those are really helpful for combat use, though.

-Troy



9x19 may give similar terminal ballistics as the .357Sig, but the .357 Sig does it with a much heavier bullet weight. That's the only advantage that I can see. Your other points are all valid, just be careful about comparing apples and bananas.

I really like 357 Magnum--for the exact reason you stated--it is a good hunting cartridge, while the others you mention are not. Applications matter.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 9:29:06 AM EST
What is the cost of the "Identical Performance" in a shorter case evident in .45 GAP?

Is it a tremendous increase in chamber pressure as compared to .45 ACP?


Link Posted: 9/30/2004 9:33:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By METT-T:
I've got a buddy who's set on buying his very first two guns here shortly. He's done some research on his own an has come up with a hankering for an M4gery and a Glock 37. The M4 I've no problem with, altho he's pretty set on a Colt. But-I'm a Glock Hater. And I know next to nothing about the .45 GAP cartridge. Is it worth it? Edumacate me!!!



Tell him that if he wants a Glock in .45 but is worried that .45ACP isn't expensive enough or is too widely available, then .45GAP is just what the Doctor ordered.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 9:55:44 AM EST
All you need to know is that the .45GAP will do everything that the .45ACP will do in a more expensive package.



solution looking for a problem
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 10:06:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By H3At:
.45 gap beat the .45 acp in all tests.. nuff said



No, not 'nuff said...what tests?

There isn't a thing the .45 gap can do, ballistically, that the ACP can't do better. Period.

If you can't put your hands around a 1911 grip frame, you don't need a .45 in the first place.
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 11:46:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:
What is the cost of the "Identical Performance" in a shorter case evident in .45 GAP?

Is it a tremendous increase in chamber pressure as compared to .45 ACP?





DINGDINGDING!!!! We have a winner! Look for kB!s out of this weapon just like we had with the .40 Glocks!

According to a Glock rep at the last Armorer's Class I took, this is EXACTLY how the shorter .45GAP matches the longer .45ACP. He couldn't figure out the purpose for the round, either, except to allude that it might have been originally designed for those countries that forbid "Military" weapons and ammo. No "Military" has adopted the .45GAP, so they'll be legal in these places. At that time, figures for chamber pressure hadn't been released and I've not looked into the round since then, it's probably every bit as high as .40, maybe higher. I'd expect to see kB!s out of them till reloaders get the recipe right, again just like the .40 Glocks when they first came out.

Don't get me wrong, I'm one of those that thinks Gaston walks on water and the only pistol I'd give up my G23 for is a 1911. Unfortunately, Department policy forbids single actions, so I'll happily stick to my G23. But, in this instance, I think the Great Man dropped the ball BIG TIME, unless the stories the Glock Rep told were true. Time will tell with this weapon/cartridge combo!

Bub
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:09:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By H3At:
.45 gap beat the .45 acp in all tests.. nuff said



Did the guys they shot with the .45 ACP complain or something?

Link Posted: 9/30/2004 1:51:40 PM EST
That should be fun sorting through them at the range! I think we will be seeing this round go the way of the .356 and the .41 AE. Yeah it can fit into a smaller frame and have roughly the same ballistics as the .45 acp but I agree with Sarge that it is a solution looking for a problem. It would make sense about it going to countrys where military rounds aren't alowed. However what countrys also use the .45 acp besides us?
Link Posted: 9/30/2004 2:11:20 PM EST
A major advantagae of the .45 ACP in comparison to the .40 S&W, 357 SIG or 9mm is that the .45 ACP is a much lower pressure round (longer firearm life, bigger safety margin, longer brass life). The .45 GAP gives that up.

The .45 GAP doesn't 'beat' the .45 ACP in any way that matters. The best self-defense rounds in 9, .40, and .45 are equivalent. .45 GAP pistols are no easier to hold or conceal than any good ,45 ACP M1911; the GAP pistol may hold more rounds, but that makes no practical difference to anyone with more than one magazine. .45 ACP is much cheaper.

As an interesting concept, or another cartridge to experiment with, or a way to sell Glocks, sure. Otherwise, I've yet to see any meaningful practical advantage to the .45 GAP.

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