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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 1/27/2006 2:32:40 PM EDT
This is my personal opinion based on my own observations and experiences.

I have come to the conclusion that full auto battle rifles/carbines are not practical for the following reasons:

1. Control of the weapon during FA fire is compromised, wasting ammunition.
2. Semi forces well aimed shots and conserves ammo (as alternative to #1).
3. when the SHTF and you need auto fire you should be using your squad auto weapons to provide cover fire for manuever, and using SA fire from rifles on specific targets.

I say this because in my experiences with the M16 A1/A2's when I had the option of burst or FA fire I never was in a situation that required their use.

Anyone have similar or opposing views? I want to discuss this without starting a war.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:35:31 PM EDT
Well, ANY scenario involving me and my weapons is necessarily confined to S/a fire.

I've spent some time behind many F/A weapons, they are cool to be sure and in trained hands are ferocious.

But I can't own them and don't feel undergunned.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:37:31 PM EDT
Semi is best for 98% of time
2 or 3 shot burst feature is totally useless
FA feature on a 5.56 rifle or carbine is a useful feature when you want to clear a room or other limited space and granade is not an option since in small caliber like 5.56 the weapon can be controlled.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:39:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:41:11 PM EDT
Tag for opinions. I have really wondered about FA from a tactical standpoint. I've taken carbine courses and I'm not sure how FA would help me personally in 99.9% of situations I would likely encounter.

Although it is still unconstitutional not to have it available on the rifle. It wouldn't add weight either.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:43:57 PM EDT
Well, in a pinch you could keep someone's head down with auto fire while others flank.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:49:16 PM EDT
FA is an indispensable tool for providing the temporary fire superiiority necessary to break contact with an ambush... which I don't find myself in that often.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:56:07 PM EDT
When we needed to break contact or move to a superior position I as squad leader used my SAW gunners for covering fire and SA fire from riflemen against specific (human) targets.

I agree that in a CQB environment that it is useful in a subgun (MP5 is great for that work).

But as my own internal "after action report" I came to the conclusions above about FA on rifles/carbine.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 2:56:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Paul:

Originally Posted By Pointman_M4A1:
Anyone have similar or opposing views?



The USMC has similar views - three shot bursts.



IMHO Three shot burst makes no sense.
If you need FA firepower for things like clearing a room or breaking up an ambush you are going to need a lot more firepower than 3 shot burst will give out.

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:11:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pointman_M4A1:
When we needed to break contact or move to a superior position I as squad leader used my SAW gunners for covering fire and SA fire from riflemen against specific (human) targets.

I agree that in a CQB environment that it is useful in a subgun (MP5 is great for that work).

But as my own internal "after action report" I came to the conclusions above about FA on rifles/carbine.



Agreed.
However, full auto on an M4/M16/AK does not add any extra weight.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:28:12 PM EDT
I think there is no reason not to HAVE the FA capability (laws excepte) but there are very limited applications for using it.

And since FA is for initiating or disengaging from ambushes and such, and semi is for everything else, burst is largely a joke.

FWIW, I can hold a 28 round burst from an M4A1 on a playing card at 5 meters and I still hold the opinion that FA is not ideal for point targets.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 3:46:46 PM EDT
SA is goood 99% of the time, of course when you need FA you really really really need it, establishing fire superiority or breaking contact for example.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:07:03 PM EDT
Imagine this: a fresh (new incountry) squad taking fire for the first time, dumps mag after mag on FA/Burst in a prolonged encounter with an enemy they can't see and is finally able to break contact and move out. Now unfortunately this unit is out of ammo and therefore combat ineffective.

Not my unit but it happened more than once in the beginning of the insurgency.

Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:39:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Pointman_M4A1:
This is my personal opinion based on my own observations and experiences.

I have come to the conclusion that full auto battle rifles/carbines are not practical for the following reasons:

1. Control of the weapon during FA fire is compromised, wasting ammunition.
2. Semi forces well aimed shots and conserves ammo (as alternative to #1).
3. when the SHTF and you need auto fire you should be using your squad auto weapons to provide cover fire for manuever, and using SA fire from rifles on specific targets.

I say this because in my experiences with the M16 A1/A2's when I had the option of burst or FA fire I never was in a situation that required their use.

Anyone have similar or opposing views? I want to discuss this without starting a war.



You should tell these fine folks about your revelation. I'm sure they'd appreciate it.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:41:19 PM EDT
Full auto seems worthless on a rifle.

If you want F/A get a machinegun
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:44:49 PM EDT
Well with one, I can shoot f/a, bursts, or single shots. The best of all worlds and options
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:47:27 PM EDT
I have discussed this with several infantry Marines, both officer and enlisted and they tend to agree with the thoughts behind it.

I spent my second enlistment (4 years) with the USMC before going back into the Army for my 3rd.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 4:51:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By Pointman_M4A1:
When we needed to break contact or move to a superior position I as squad leader used my SAW gunners for covering fire and SA fire from riflemen against specific (human) targets.

I agree that in a CQB environment that it is useful in a subgun (MP5 is great for that work).

But as my own internal "after action report" I came to the conclusions above about FA on rifles/carbine.



Agreed.
However, full auto on an M4/M16/AK does not add any extra weight.



Sure it does, it's called ammo. You've got to feed the beast for all those misses.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:26:45 PM EDT
btt
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 5:33:28 PM EDT
It makes sense because most men loose fine motor skills when the adrenaline dump occurs, what in training is a 2-3 shot burst turns to a 7-8 under stress.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:00:27 PM EDT
I hear the contempt for 3RD burst but I would think a greater mind than mine had some good reasons for it...
Suppose you are in close quarter combat; room to room; you enter a room with a 285 lb. , 6'4" enemy wearing multiple layers of clothes and pointing a shotgun at you...do you raise up to get your sight picture, shoot one of your 9mm or .223 and wait to see the reaction? Wouldn't a 3 RD. burst to some vitals be to an advantage? Suppose he is high on something and won't go down too easily...2 three round bursts ? It is pretty quick and sure ...you sure don't want reaction time on his part if his shotgun is pointing your way...
FA definitely has psychological advantage to the shooter if confronted with multiple enemies...
The popular theme with our high tech mentality has found criticism with the FA and burst capability...popularity dictated the demise for the .45 and we all went to the 9mm...now we have to shoot 17 rounds to accomplish what 3 rounds did before...
If I confont an armed intruder who is attacking me, whether I have a MP5 to burst him or whether I have the 92FS or a 1911, he is getting three rounds instinctively before I stop to evaluate whether I need more or not...It is just easier if the 3 rounds only require one sight picture and not three...
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:02:00 PM EDT
fortunately my room clearing technique involved tossing a grenade and shooting the survivors
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:06:39 PM EDT
Ahh, yeah, I bet that would do it better than full auto
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:08:24 PM EDT
If your SAW gunner is dead or the SAW is inop you're SOL without it.

It's not neccessary 99% percent of the time in most environments but if your position is being overrun by superior numbers I bet every rifleman would be on rock and roll.

Also, defending FOBs in hostile areas it's nice if you can have a "mad minute" every now and then.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:11:38 PM EDT
What about the psycological effect of full auto?

I have heard German soldiers talking about the effect hearing a number of Thompsons spitting .45's in their general direction. The German's said that is was not pleasant and made them think twice before acting.

I think the same can be said for American forces going up against a number of German MG's.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:11:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/27/2006 6:13:42 PM EDT by Pointman_M4A1]
psychological effect works up until the point your newly empty rifle stops going bang.

If you are being overran you are in deep sh*t and it's time for close air support...........
and un ass that position.

FA has it's uses in limited situations, and I know that for some situations the appropriate response is "spray and pray".
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:29:49 PM EDT
In the movie Blackhawk Down, most of the soldiers with the M16s were firing semi, just think when all of the ammo you're got is what you're carrying, you've got to make every round count.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:36:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:
In the movie Blackhawk Down, most of the soldiers with the M16s were firing semi, just think when all of the ammo you're got is what you're carrying, you've got to make every round count.



Damned straight, add ammo, your armor, helmet, weapons, water, extreme heat you get tired quick and the sh*t is heavy.
Link Posted: 1/27/2006 6:53:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By warlord:
In the movie Blackhawk Down, most of the soldiers with the M16s were firing semi, just think when all of the ammo you're got is what you're carrying, you've got to make every round count.



I re-read the book the other day and most referenced were to firing "bursts" now they could have been quick singles or actually on burst who knows.
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