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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/8/2002 11:58:02 AM EST
Crashed Russian Plane Given Conflicting Warnings Reuters BERLIN (July 8) - Swiss air traffic control told the Tupolev airliner that collided with a cargo plane over Germany last week to descend, contradicting a warning from the Russian plane's computer that it should climb, German investigators said Monday. The BFU German air accident investigation agency said the onboard TCAS crash avoidance system of the Tupolev-154 had told the pilot to climb to avoid a collision with a Boeing 757 cargo plane. The Boeing's computer told the cargo jet's pilot to descend. Both aircraft subsequently descended and collided. All 71 people on board the planes, mostly Russian children, died in the disaster late last Monday. TCAS, an abbreviation for Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System, is fitted in most large commercial jets. Its failure to prevent the crash had hitherto been a mystery in the investigation. The BFU said its information was based on an initial analysis of the voice recordings of the flight recorders of both aircraft. Swiss air traffic control body Skyguide was overseeing the two planes at the time of the crash over the German-Swiss border. It has come under mounting criticism for its role in the crash. ''About a minute before the collision both TCAS-systems gave the warning 'Traffic, traffic'. About 15 seconds later the TCAS in the Boeing 757 gave the command 'descend, descend' and the TCAS in the Tu-154 the command 'climb, climb','' the BFU said. ''About one second after this warning, the crew of the Tu-154 received an instruction from Zurich air traffic controllers to descend,'' BFU said in a statement, adding that Swiss air traffic control had repeated its warning 14 seconds later. German air traffic controllers also said Monday they had tried to warn their Swiss colleagues about the impending collision but could not reach the Swiss by telephone. A spokeswoman for Germany's DFS air traffic control agency said controllers in Karlsruhe, southern Germany, had seen that the Tupolev and the Boeing were on a collision course. ''The Karlsruhe controllers saw the situation on their radar screens. They wanted to inform them (Swiss controllers) but couldn't get through on the phone,'' said DFS spokeswoman Ute Otterbein, confirming a magazine report published at the weekend. Reut10:06 07-08-02
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Link Posted: 7/8/2002 12:00:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 12:20:06 PM EST
Paul this is Europe.Its not like the US where everything is just ONE continuous system. Both planes came into Swiss control at the same altitude. Both had been assigned their altitudes by ground control, but by ground control other than the Swiss whos airspace they were entering. In Europe, because of the cramped conditions, all altitudes are assigned by ground control. Both aircraft were flying at exactly the altitudes they were told. The Swiss failed to move them to a new altitude. Then in a panic, the controller orders the Tupolev to decend, when he should of known-as the Tupolves collision warning system also knew- to CLIMB. Pilots are still taught to allways listen to ground over their instruments-even though a computer is usually less likely to be making a mistake than a person is...
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 2:15:56 PM EST
Actually, the separation at high altitudes is 2000 feet. However, the odd/even rule only applies in VFR, not IFR flight. Even though the practice is to follow that rule, it's not mandatory and the clearance can be for any altitude that provides the required separation. Sounds like the controllers were at least partially responsible. Early reports were that numerous calls were made to the Russian and not answered. This is possible, but if it is true, why didn't someone call the DHL? Lots of questions without real answers so far.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 2:52:05 PM EST
From your thread title, it's obvious that you read the article and failed to comprehend any of it. Let's analyze just how wrong this is: "Swiss ground control caused Russian plane crash..." 1) It wasn't just a Russian plane that crashed; you are completely ignoring the DHL 757 cargo jet with two crew members who were also killed. 2) The ground control didn't "cause" the crash; it was caused by the pilot delaying his response because of a conflict between what his onboard TCAS told him to do and what the ATC controller told him to do. If the Russian had immediately started to descend when told to do so by the Swiss ATC, the collision would have been avoided.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 6:37:18 PM EST
Crashed Russian Plane Given Conflicting Warnings By DAVID RISING .c The Associated Press BERLIN (July 8) - Cockpit voice recorders show that a Russian pilot received contradictory messages seconds before colliding with a cargo jet last week over the German-Swiss border, killing all 71 people aboard, German investigators said Monday. Although the cockpit warning system told the Bashkirian Airlines pilot to ascend, he followed an order from a Swiss air traffic controller one second later to descend, investigators said. Less than a minute after that, the planes collided at 35,000 feet. Controllers in the Zurich, Switzerland, tower - which guided the planes - had no way of knowing the Russian pilot was receiving contradictory instruction from his cockpit Traffic Control Advisory System, or TCAS, a Swiss air traffic control spokesman said. ``He only finds out about it if the pilot tells him,'' spokesman Markus Luginbuehl said. ``If the pilot reacts to a TCAS alarm, he is supposed to advise the controller. And the pilot assumes responsibility for the maneuver.'' Russian aviation officials said the pilot correctly gave precedence to the control tower before the July 1 crash, but Western aviation experts said pilots are trained to give precedence to the cockpit warning. The voice recorders indicate the cockpit warning systems issued simultaneous instructions for the Russian Tu-154 passenger jet to climb and the DHL International cargo jet to dive, investigators said. Those warnings came about 45 seconds before impact. The Russian plane did not immediately respond to the tower's order to descend, so it repeated the command 14 seconds later - about 30 seconds before impact, the recorders indicate. The crash killed all 69 people aboard the Russian aircraft, including 45 students headed for a Spanish beach vacation, and the two DHL pilots. German investigators did not release a transcript of the cockpit recorders and refused to elaborate on their findings. Investigations in Germany and Switzerland have focused on the control tower's role in the crash, and Zurich prosecutors are investigating whether to press charges of negligent homicide.
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 6:38:04 PM EST
Officials from the Russian government, Bashkirian Airlines and Moscow's Domodedovo Airport said the air traffic controller's instructions take priority over the on-board anti-collision system when the two contradict. ``The air traffic controller gets the last word,'' said Sergei Rybanov of Bashkirian Airlines. That is an international rule, said Rybanov and a spokeswoman for Domodedovo Airport, where the Russian flight originated. But Herbert Schmell, spokesman for the national airline Swiss, said the cockpit warning system should have been obeyed. ``A TCAS system makes no sense if it is overruled, especially in a phase when there isn't much leeway anymore,'' Schmell said. Georg Fongern, a spokesman for Germany's pilot association, agreed, saying the planes never should have been allowed to get so close that the warning systems kicked in. ``Never in the life of an aircraft should this system be activated, and if it has been activated there have to be a lot of mistakes and deficiencies beforehand,'' Fongern said. Axel Raab, a spokesman for German air traffic control, told ZDF television the problem was that no international regulation tells pilots whether to follow the controller's order or the warning system. ``In most countries the rule is quite clear - pilots must follow the collision warning system,'' he added. ``But unfortunately that is not yet the case everywhere.'' Other experts said the planes would have had enough time to avoid each other had they both followed their cockpit warnings. In another development, German air controllers said Monday they received an automatic radar warning that the planes were on a collision course and tried to warn the Zurich tower about two minutes before impact. But when they called, the only available line was repeatedly busy. German investigators said last week the Zurich control center's telephone system was undergoing maintenance at the time and the lone controller on duty was using the reserve line to communicate with Friedrichshafen, Germany, controllers about another flight. Zurich's collision-warning system also was out of service for maintenance. Most of the wreckage has been recovered and now is at the Friedrichshafen airport for investigation. A Braunschweig laboratory is examining the flight data and cockpit voice recorders of both planes. Russian President Vladimir Putin visited a cemetery Monday in Ufa, the capital of the Bashkortostan republic, during a memorial service for victims. Putin told the Russian captain's widow that, according to his information, ``the Russian pilots were not to blame for the tragedy.'' ``The Russian pilots were professionals of the highest class,'' the ITAR-Tass news agency quoted him as saying. 07/08/02 18:39 EDT
Link Posted: 7/8/2002 6:46:08 PM EST
2) The ground control didn't "cause" the crash; it was caused by the pilot delaying his response because of a conflict between what his onboard TCAS told him to do and what the ATC controller told him to do. If the Russian had immediately started to descend when told to do so by the Swiss ATC, the collision would have been avoided
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Totally wrong, see above. The Russian should never have obeyed the tower, he should have climbed like his computer told him OR he should have done nothing, and the Boeing would have missed him. But then again you cant have pilots second guessing controllers at night in a place that is as crowded as Western Europe's airspace, can you? I know right of way is usualy decided by altitude and direction of flight but as a practical matter the cargo carrying DHL, that had no passengers to be bounced off the walls in in sudden movement, should have been told by controllers to move. So far, I have seen nothing published that the DHL was even told the Tupolev was there...
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