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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:01:15 PM EST
The last genie in the bottle for the AR platform is quieting down the BCG venting the gas.

With it shitting where it eats, what kind of redesign would it need to get the levels to hearing safe while shooting suppressed? 

Going to a HK delayed roller system? 
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:02:46 PM EST
Have you ever heard of a piston?

Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:04:52 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Undefined:
Have you ever heard of a piston?

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My AK is loud as fuck suppressed.  
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:05:39 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TescoVee:
My AK is loud as fuck suppressed.  
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Originally Posted By TescoVee:
Originally Posted By Undefined:
Have you ever heard of a piston?

My AK is loud as fuck suppressed.  
And my roller locked delayed blowback HK's are not exactly silent (although they are quiet).
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:10:18 PM EST
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Originally Posted By TescoVee:
My AK is loud as fuck suppressed.  
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Originally Posted By TescoVee:
Originally Posted By Undefined:
Have you ever heard of a piston?

My AK is loud as fuck suppressed.  
That pop ain't quiet. Lol
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:11:28 PM EST
You guys are spoiled
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:17:43 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MadMardigan:
That pop ain't quiet. Lol
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Originally Posted By MadMardigan:
Originally Posted By TescoVee:
Originally Posted By Undefined:
Have you ever heard of a piston?

My AK is loud as fuck suppressed.  
That pop ain't quiet. Lol
The give a more serious answer....

If we still have superheated gas pushing back against the gas key, we need to capture it and allow it to cool and release slowly. That would be challenging with the current design.

If we switch to a piston driven design, we still have a large mass of the bolt carrier being pushed back with a piston and compressing in the buffer / buffer spring, before being driven back the force of said springs and slamming closed. Even if we could perfectly silence the rearward motion triggered by the piston, that does nothing to silence the distinctive sound of the bolt traveling at high speed and then rotating and locking in place.

The only ideas that immediately come to mind don't seem practical or introduce more problems than fixes.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:20:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2017 9:20:19 PM EST by MadMardigan]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Undefined:


The give a more serious answer....

If we still have superheated gas pushing back against the gas key, we need to capture it and allow it to cool and release slowly. That would be challenging with the current design.

If we switch to a piston driven design, we still have a large mass of the bolt carrier being pushed back with a piston and compressing in the buffer / buffer spring, before being driven back the force of said springs and slamming closed. Even if we could perfectly silence the rearward motion triggered by the piston, that does nothing to silence the distinctive sound of the bolt traveling at high speed and then rotating and locking in place.

The only ideas that immediately come to mind don't seem practical or introduce more problems than fixes.
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What about venting the gas to the left side of the Upper receiver and venting the gas back towards the buffer?  It's going to make things dirty fast. 
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:21:17 PM EST
Just use a bolt action and call it a day.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:27:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2017 9:30:17 PM EST by Undefined]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MadMardigan:
What about venting the gas to the left side of the Upper receiver and venting the gas back towards the buffer?  It's going to make things dirty fast. 
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That could work, but how do you propose to redirect it toward the left or rear of the receiver?

We could also try moving the gas key further back (and elongating it) and increasing the size of the gas tube within the receiver, while porting it behind the point where the gas key / gas tube interface is made (in other words, give the gas another tube to dwell in and then vent out of). Hell, we could go all in and increase the size of the receiver and integrally suppress that interface (take the same concept of a longer tube within the receiver and build baffles in it, such that once the gas impulse hits the gas key it dwells in the baffles upon release).

Granted, I've had a few bourbons and these are most likely dangerously bad ideas.


ETA: Just in case anyone is drunk enough to consider any of the above ideas, please be sure to get a Form 1 approved before doing so, or if you are a SOT knock yourselves out but not get pissed if the ideas are terrible. In other words "All NFA rules apply." and so forth.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:38:12 PM EST
This what you seek?


Attachment Attached File




Works ok vents the gas out the side, still get some back in the face but not as bad as a normal carrier.

Sir James...
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:42:13 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SirJames556:
This what you seek?


https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/156294/IMG_6956-286980.JPG



Works ok vents the gas out the side, still get some back in the face but not as bad as a normal carrier.

Sir James...
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That's still only a partial solution. The main appeal of that BCG is that it allows for adjusting cyclic rate downwards in spite of the increased back pressure of running it suppressed. Adjusting gas port aperture, or spring strength, or buffer weight, would effectively accomplish the same end (albeit not as easily adjusted).

I can see the value in that product, I just don't see it as the full answer to the OP's question.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 9:56:30 PM EST
I've said it before, shoot an ar 223 with the same ammo as your going to shoot in a bolt action 223 same barrel length, the amount of noise from the gas tube, open barrel, bolt slam, and gas escaping through the 2 holes in the bolt will blow you away, the difference is like night and day. There is a reason people shooting ar's are walking around with ringing ears, even with ear plugs.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:00:01 PM EST
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Originally Posted By dennyd:
I've said it before, shoot an ar 223 with the same ammo as your going to shoot in a bolt action 223 same barrel length, the amount of noise from the gas tube, open barrel, bolt slam, and gas escaping through the 2 holes in the bolt will blow you away, the difference is like night and day. There is a reason people shooting ar's are walking around with ringing ears, even with ear plugs.
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Yes, because semi auto shooters actually shoot volume as opposed to a Fudd blaster with his obligatory 5 rounds a year.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:04:46 PM EST
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Originally Posted By dennyd:
I've said it before, shoot an ar 223 with the same ammo as your going to shoot in a bolt action 223 same barrel length, the amount of noise from the gas tube, open barrel, bolt slam, and gas escaping through the 2 holes in the bolt will blow you away, the difference is like night and day. There is a reason people shooting ar's are walking around with ringing ears, even with ear plugs.
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If you are looking for consensus that bolt action firearms are both easier to suppress and natively more well suited to suppression, I cannot imagine you will find any dissenters.

Even so, the challenge of suppressing a semi automatic or fully automatic firearm is an engineering challenge, and like all other engineering challenges it is worth consideration and contemplation.

To put it more bluntly - having a firearm that is quiet is good, but if given the choice between a bolt action and a semi automatic of equal noise levels and accuracy, only a troglodyte would pick the bolt action.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:06:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2017 10:08:48 PM EST by lilMAC25]
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Originally Posted By Undefined:
That's still only a partial solution. The main appeal of that BCG is that it allows for adjusting cyclic rate downwards in spite of the increased back pressure of running it suppressed. Adjusting gas port aperture, or spring strength, or buffer weight, would effectively accomplish the same end (albeit not as easily adjusted).

I can see the value in that product, I just don't see it as the full answer to the OP's question.
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Originally Posted By Undefined:
Originally Posted By SirJames556:
This what you seek?


https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/156294/IMG_6956-286980.JPG



Works ok vents the gas out the side, still get some back in the face but not as bad as a normal carrier.

Sir James...
That's still only a partial solution. The main appeal of that BCG is that it allows for adjusting cyclic rate downwards in spite of the increased back pressure of running it suppressed. Adjusting gas port aperture, or spring strength, or buffer weight, would effectively accomplish the same end (albeit not as easily adjusted).

I can see the value in that product, I just don't see it as the full answer to the OP's question.
There is another that does vent the gas forward. Lantac maybe?

Lantac
https://www.lantac-usa.com/product-page/enhanced-full-auto-bcg-223-556

How well it works, I don't know.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 10:11:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2017 10:12:28 PM EST by INV136]
What are you going on about? My M16A1 works fine with my suppressor and doesn't require hearing protection with supersonic rounds on outdoor ranges. On an indoor range suppressors require hearing protection because the concrete floor and walls magnify the muffled blast to the point they're not hearing safe. It does make for a filthy bolt carrier group, especially on full auto, but, then that's the problem with direct impingement. But the sound suppression with my suppressor works like a dream.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 11:05:33 PM EST
How about electronic cycling of a de Lisle carbine?
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 11:15:10 PM EST
Just buy an adjustable gas block and shut the gas block off and single cycle it.
Link Posted: 8/21/2017 11:35:36 PM EST
Um, doesn't the fact that the gasses are captured in the gas tube, redirected back to the bolt, and the used to unlock the bolt slow them down inherently?
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 5:36:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By HappyCamel:
Yes, because semi auto shooters actually shoot volume as opposed to a Fudd blaster with his obligatory 5 rounds a year.
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No, even suppressed the sound of the BCG is like 140+ in a 223, and 134 at the muzzle, volume has a little bit of it, but the action is loud as fuck still.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 5:38:54 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Lone_Gringo:
Just buy an adjustable gas block and shut the gas block off and single cycle it.
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Defeats the semiauto part of the gun 
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 5:44:57 AM EST
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Originally Posted By HappyCamel:
Yes, because semi auto shooters actually shoot volume as opposed to a Fudd blaster with his obligatory 5 rounds a year.
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Originally Posted By HappyCamel:
Originally Posted By dennyd:
I've said it before, shoot an ar 223 with the same ammo as your going to shoot in a bolt action 223 same barrel length, the amount of noise from the gas tube, open barrel, bolt slam, and gas escaping through the 2 holes in the bolt will blow you away, the difference is like night and day. There is a reason people shooting ar's are walking around with ringing ears, even with ear plugs.
Yes, because semi auto shooters actually shoot volume as opposed to a Fudd blaster with his obligatory 5 rounds a year.
Go watch some PRS videos. I've shot some stages where I fired more through a bolt gun than an AR in a 2/3gun match.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:32:23 AM EST
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Originally Posted By HootieWho:


Go watch some PRS videos. I've shot some stages where I fired more through a bolt gun than an AR in a 2/3gun match.
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If I'm taking out any gun, it's getting shot a bit.

I think suppressors have pretty much hit the peak on AR15s, minus maybe working on back pressure / dwell time.  But getting that carrier noise down should be the next thing to work out.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:34:20 AM EST
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Originally Posted By SirJames556:
This what you seek?


https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/156294/IMG_6956-286980.JPG



Works ok vents the gas out the side, still get some back in the face but not as bad as a normal carrier.

Sir James...
View Quote
I know Gemtech and another has a suppressor ready BCG, so you don't have to use the adjustable gas block.

But it's still venting at your ears louder than at the end of the suppressor.  
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:35:05 AM EST
If youre talking about shooting supersonic 5.56mm, I don't understand the point in going so far to try and make the carrier a tiny bit more quiet
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:37:55 AM EST
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Originally Posted By chase45:
If youre talking about shooting supersonic 5.56mm, I don't understand the point in going so far to try and make the carrier a tiny bit more quiet
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Hearing safe at the ears and less gas in the face.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:39:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 8:41:16 AM EST by chase45]
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Originally Posted By MadMardigan:
Hearing safe at the ears and less gas in the face.
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Ive had other 5.56mm platforms such as a HK 93 clone and it was still loud suppressed.

Hell my bolt gun in .223 is still loud suppressed

This is what you are looking for if you want truly hearing safe, and you also wouldn't have to worry about gas



Link Posted: 8/22/2017 8:46:47 AM EST
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Originally Posted By chase45:
If youre talking about shooting supersonic 5.56mm, I don't understand the point in going so far to try and make the carrier a tiny bit more quiet
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This

Some platforms and cartridges just lend themselves better to suppression. Like heavy 9mm in an MP5, or 38 in a lever action.

But 5.56 is a hot rod, and that muzzle blast and sonic crack is going to be loud no matter what.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:09:03 AM EST
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Originally Posted By chase45:


Ive had other 5.56mm platforms such as a HK 93 clone and it was still loud suppressed.

Hell my bolt gun in .223 is still loud suppressed

This is what you are looking for if you want truly hearing safe, and you also wouldn't have to worry about gas

http://i.imgur.com/riMXx89h.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/xm7Ry1wh.jpg
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My CZ Scorpion is great suppressed, along with the 22s and stuff.

But I was just seeing if there's anything to do about quieting down the BCG venting gas.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:10:37 AM EST
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Originally Posted By BigPolska:


This

Some platforms and cartridges just lend themselves better to suppression. Like heavy 9mm in an MP5, or 38 in a lever action.

But 5.56 is a hot rod, and that muzzle blast and sonic crack is going to be loud no matter what.
View Quote
If you take out the sound of the action, with a can, it ain't bad though.  Especially outside where the bullet doesn't have a lot a reflection to bounce noise back at yourself.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:37:41 AM EST
The AR-15 with a properly sized gas port and adjustable gas block is the quietest autoloading 5.56x45 carbine there is, especially with longer barrels.

I hunt with an 18" 5.56 AR-15 suppressed and I am amazed at how quiet it is. The gas port is sized correctly and it has an adjustable gas block which really helps. It's really not much louder with the gas on than with the gas off.

The piston on barrel guns all vent gas directly in front of your face from the gas block and most of them are over-gassed to begin with which is only exacerbated by a can.

Some of the piston on barrel guns are better than others, for instance the FN rifles have a gas port screw that allows you to install a smaller port for suppressed use. You can also modify the gas vent ports to reduce the gas block noise. I did this with my FS-2000 and it was then pretty quiet with a can, especially for a bullpup. Not as quiet as an AR-15 but close.

The roller locked guns are sensitive to back pressure and unlock too early with a can... lots of gas blowback and noise through the breech area when suppressed. They are worse than the piston on barrel guns in 5.56mm. They just suck in general actually. Pass.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 9:43:32 AM EST
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Originally Posted By MadMardigan:
My CZ Scorpion is great suppressed, along with the 22s and stuff.

But I was just seeing if there's anything to do about quieting down the BCG venting gas.
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Its a high pressure gas getting injected directly into the BCG to operate the firearm.

Reduce the pressure and youll have cycling issues at some point, well before the high velocity gasses are quiet however.

A WAR upper is along the lines of what youre talking about. It reduces gas flow to te BCG. But it is still loud.

Even if you could eliminate all sound from the BCG its still going to be loud. Youre getting noise from the barrel unsealing and gasses flowing out backwards from the barrel as well.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 11:05:14 AM EST
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Originally Posted By chase45:


Its a high pressure gas getting injected directly into the BCG to operate the firearm.

Reduce the pressure and youll have cycling issues at some point, well before the high velocity gasses are quiet however.

A WAR upper is along the lines of what youre talking about. It reduces gas flow to te BCG. But it is still loud.

Even if you could eliminate all sound from the BCG its still going to be loud. Youre getting noise from the barrel unsealing and gasses flowing out backwards from the barrel as well.
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Anyway to delay the blowback like the HK93s?
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 11:08:49 AM EST
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Originally Posted By TescoVee:
My AK is loud as fuck suppressed.  
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this .... I bought a 30 cal can I didn't even really need just to dedicate to an AK and am very disappointed with the results. Now I use the same can on a 7.62x39 AR I "built" and its fucking sweet on that gun.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 11:12:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 11:13:39 AM EST by BURN]
Standard AR style rifles do not shit where they eat...

There are some french models that put gas into the chamber but the piston in an AR15 type rifle stops the gas and vents the majority of it through the ejection port.


Those gas rings on the bolt are what seals the piston.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 11:22:58 AM EST
My W.A.R upper receiver is noticeably quieter than my uppers with adjustable gas blocks. The W.AR. also gets dirtier in the front of the receiver under the hand guard so there is some venting there. I shoot lefty and this is also gives less gas to the face.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 3:22:57 PM EST
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Originally Posted By BURN:
Standard AR style rifles do not shit where they eat...

There are some french models that put gas into the chamber but the piston in an AR15 type rifle stops the gas and vents the majority of it through the ejection port.


Those gas rings on the bolt are what seals the piston.
View Quote
It's asshole is close to its mouth.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 3:27:20 PM EST
Loud pipes save lives
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 3:31:33 PM EST
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Originally Posted By smarcus:
My W.A.R upper receiver is noticeably quieter than my uppers with adjustable gas blocks. The W.AR. also gets dirtier in the front of the receiver under the hand guard so there is some venting there. I shoot lefty and this is also gives less gas to the face.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/167780/Grendel_Rifle_War_Close-287274.JPG
View Quote
That's interesting.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 3:39:07 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MadMardigan:
It's asshole is close to its mouth.
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Originally Posted By MadMardigan:
Originally Posted By BURN:
Standard AR style rifles do not shit where they eat...

There are some french models that put gas into the chamber but the piston in an AR15 type rifle stops the gas and vents the majority of it through the ejection port.


Those gas rings on the bolt are what seals the piston.
It's asshole is close to its mouth.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 3:46:20 PM EST
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You know insulting people is against the CoC, and you missed the joke.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 3:52:33 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MadMardigan:
Anyway to delay the blowback like the HK93s?
View Quote
Its already delayed. The bolt is locked during firing and only unlocked when cycling starts.

You cant make the sound go away because the sound is what makes the gun operate, if that makes sense

ARs need a certain amount of high pressure gas to get the carrier moving. Decrease it and sure you might have a rifle that's a tiny bit quieter at the ear, but then it wont function.

Now gassing it properly for suppressed will make it quieter than if it is vastly overgassed. But youre still going to have ejection port noise, and all of it isn't just from the carrier operating.

Go shoot a suppressed .223 bolt gun. Its honestly not that much quieter than a AR.

Bottom line is I think what youre chasing, even if you did somehow eliminate the carrier noise, it would still be louder than you think it will be.

If youre wanting a truly quiet suppressed gun, you need to move to subsonic speeds.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 4:05:22 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MadMardigan:
You know insulting people is against the CoC, and you missed the joke.
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Originally Posted By MadMardigan:
You know insulting people is against the CoC, and you missed the joke.
Oh, how dense of me! The thing about jokes is they are supposed to be funny though. Try doing it that way maybe.

Anyway, why don't you go ahead and build yourself a roller locked AR-15 since it appears that is what you are waiting for someone to tell you to do?

Do it and let us know how it goes.
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 4:08:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2017 4:09:12 PM EST by BURN]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MadMardigan:
It's asshole is close to its mouth.
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Originally Posted By MadMardigan:
Originally Posted By BURN:
Standard AR style rifles do not shit where they eat...

There are some french models that put gas into the chamber but the piston in an AR15 type rifle stops the gas and vents the majority of it through the ejection port.


Those gas rings on the bolt are what seals the piston.
It's asshole is close to its mouth.
True enough but I hate all the internet rumors/myths and technical misconceptions concerning the AR15 gas system...
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 4:14:39 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By chase45:


Its already delayed. The bolt is locked during firing and only unlocked when cycling starts.

You cant make the sound go away because the sound is what makes the gun operate, if that makes sense

ARs need a certain amount of high pressure gas to get the carrier moving. Decrease it and sure you might have a rifle that's a tiny bit quieter at the ear, but then it wont function.

Now gassing it properly for suppressed will make it quieter than if it is vastly overgassed. But youre still going to have ejection port noise, and all of it isn't just from the carrier operating.

Go shoot a suppressed .223 bolt gun. Its honestly not that much quieter than a AR.

Bottom line is I think what youre chasing, even if you did somehow eliminate the carrier noise, it would still be louder than you think it will be.

If youre wanting a truly quiet suppressed gun, you need to move to subsonic speeds.
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I think I'm hunting for about 5 dB in reduction to the shooters ear from the AR.

I shoot 6.5 cm from a bolt action, know the difference in sounds between a bolt action and semi gas gun.

My 8.5" 300blk AR is pretty quiet.  I was just seeing if anyone has any solutions, I was thinking of maybe having the BCG vent to the left and then finding a way to let it vent out another way. 
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 4:16:48 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MadMardigan:
I think I'm hunting for about 5 dB in reduction to the shooters ear from the AR.

I shoot 6.5 cm from a bolt action, know the difference in sounds between a bolt action and semi gas gun.

My 8.5" 300blk AR is pretty quiet.  I was just seeing if anyone has any solutions, I was thinking of maybe having the BCG vent to the left and then finding a way to let it vent out another way
View Quote
Its going to vent straight to your eyeball if you do that and make no mods to the upper.

You need a 9mm MP5 with heavy ammo in your life.

Or maybe even this

Link Posted: 8/22/2017 4:25:52 PM EST
I think getting 5dB of reduction via managing the gas differently is... extremely optimistic.

Just the action cycling at full speed on most any semi-auto weapon is pretty fucking loud. 
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 4:29:06 PM EST
Gas system he says...

Link Posted: 8/22/2017 4:29:58 PM EST
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Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Gas system he says...

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/3561/SBR-Low1-134333.jpg
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Arent those loud as fuck suppressed though? I mean comparatively to other 9mm systems
Link Posted: 8/22/2017 4:30:30 PM EST
If you need it that much quieter, you need a bolt action. Or pump.
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