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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:02:46 PM EST
[#1]
Have you ever heard of a piston?
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:04:52 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you ever heard of a piston?
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:05:39 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My AK is loud as fuck suppressed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Have you ever heard of a piston? |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:10:18 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My AK is loud as fuck suppressed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Have you ever heard of a piston? |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:11:28 PM EST
[#5]
You guys are spoiled
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:17:43 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That pop ain't quiet. Lol Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Have you ever heard of a piston? If we still have superheated gas pushing back against the gas key, we need to capture it and allow it to cool and release slowly. That would be challenging with the current design. If we switch to a piston driven design, we still have a large mass of the bolt carrier being pushed back with a piston and compressing in the buffer / buffer spring, before being driven back the force of said springs and slamming closed. Even if we could perfectly silence the rearward motion triggered by the piston, that does nothing to silence the distinctive sound of the bolt traveling at high speed and then rotating and locking in place. The only ideas that immediately come to mind don't seem practical or introduce more problems than fixes. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:20:01 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The give a more serious answer.... If we still have superheated gas pushing back against the gas key, we need to capture it and allow it to cool and release slowly. That would be challenging with the current design. If we switch to a piston driven design, we still have a large mass of the bolt carrier being pushed back with a piston and compressing in the buffer / buffer spring, before being driven back the force of said springs and slamming closed. Even if we could perfectly silence the rearward motion triggered by the piston, that does nothing to silence the distinctive sound of the bolt traveling at high speed and then rotating and locking in place. The only ideas that immediately come to mind don't seem practical or introduce more problems than fixes. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:21:17 PM EST
[#8]
Just use a bolt action and call it a day.
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:27:13 PM EST
[#9]
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What about venting the gas to the left side of the Upper receiver and venting the gas back towards the buffer? It's going to make things dirty fast. We could also try moving the gas key further back (and elongating it) and increasing the size of the gas tube within the receiver, while porting it behind the point where the gas key / gas tube interface is made (in other words, give the gas another tube to dwell in and then vent out of). Hell, we could go all in and increase the size of the receiver and integrally suppress that interface (take the same concept of a longer tube within the receiver and build baffles in it, such that once the gas impulse hits the gas key it dwells in the baffles upon release). Granted, I've had a few bourbons and these are most likely dangerously bad ideas. ETA: Just in case anyone is drunk enough to consider any of the above ideas, please be sure to get a Form 1 approved before doing so, or if you are a SOT knock yourselves out but not get pissed if the ideas are terrible. In other words "All NFA rules apply." and so forth. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:38:12 PM EST
[#10]
This what you seek?
 Attached FileWorks ok vents the gas out the side, still get some back in the face but not as bad as a normal carrier. Sir James... |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:42:13 PM EST
[#11]
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This what you seek? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/156294/IMG_6956-286980.JPG Works ok vents the gas out the side, still get some back in the face but not as bad as a normal carrier. Sir James... I can see the value in that product, I just don't see it as the full answer to the OP's question. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 9:56:30 PM EST
[#12]
I've said it before, shoot an ar 223 with the same ammo as your going to shoot in a bolt action 223 same barrel length, the amount of noise from the gas tube, open barrel, bolt slam, and gas escaping through the 2 holes in the bolt will blow you away, the difference is like night and day. There is a reason people shooting ar's are walking around with ringing ears, even with ear plugs.
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:00:01 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've said it before, shoot an ar 223 with the same ammo as your going to shoot in a bolt action 223 same barrel length, the amount of noise from the gas tube, open barrel, bolt slam, and gas escaping through the 2 holes in the bolt will blow you away, the difference is like night and day. There is a reason people shooting ar's are walking around with ringing ears, even with ear plugs. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:04:46 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've said it before, shoot an ar 223 with the same ammo as your going to shoot in a bolt action 223 same barrel length, the amount of noise from the gas tube, open barrel, bolt slam, and gas escaping through the 2 holes in the bolt will blow you away, the difference is like night and day. There is a reason people shooting ar's are walking around with ringing ears, even with ear plugs. Even so, the challenge of suppressing a semi automatic or fully automatic firearm is an engineering challenge, and like all other engineering challenges it is worth consideration and contemplation. To put it more bluntly - having a firearm that is quiet is good, but if given the choice between a bolt action and a semi automatic of equal noise levels and accuracy, only a troglodyte would pick the bolt action. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:06:28 PM EST
[#15]
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That's still only a partial solution. The main appeal of that BCG is that it allows for adjusting cyclic rate downwards in spite of the increased back pressure of running it suppressed. Adjusting gas port aperture, or spring strength, or buffer weight, would effectively accomplish the same end (albeit not as easily adjusted). I can see the value in that product, I just don't see it as the full answer to the OP's question. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This what you seek? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/156294/IMG_6956-286980.JPG Works ok vents the gas out the side, still get some back in the face but not as bad as a normal carrier. Sir James... I can see the value in that product, I just don't see it as the full answer to the OP's question. Lantac https://www.lantac-usa.com/product-page/enhanced-full-auto-bcg-223-556 How well it works, I don't know. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 10:11:11 PM EST
[#16]
What are you going on about? My M16A1 works fine with my suppressor and doesn't require hearing protection with supersonic rounds on outdoor ranges. On an indoor range suppressors require hearing protection because the concrete floor and walls magnify the muffled blast to the point they're not hearing safe. It does make for a filthy bolt carrier group, especially on full auto, but, then that's the problem with direct impingement. But the sound suppression with my suppressor works like a dream.
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Posted: 8/21/2017 11:05:33 PM EST
[#17]
How about electronic cycling of a de Lisle carbine?
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Posted: 8/21/2017 11:15:10 PM EST
[#18]
Just buy an adjustable gas block and shut the gas block off and single cycle it.
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Posted: 8/21/2017 11:35:36 PM EST
[#19]
Um, doesn't the fact that the gasses are captured in the gas tube, redirected back to the bolt, and the used to unlock the bolt slow them down inherently?
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Posted: 8/22/2017 5:36:20 AM EST
[#20]
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Yes, because semi auto shooters actually shoot volume as opposed to a Fudd blaster with his obligatory 5 rounds a year. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 5:38:54 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just buy an adjustable gas block and shut the gas block off and single cycle it. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 5:44:57 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, because semi auto shooters actually shoot volume as opposed to a Fudd blaster with his obligatory 5 rounds a year. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I've said it before, shoot an ar 223 with the same ammo as your going to shoot in a bolt action 223 same barrel length, the amount of noise from the gas tube, open barrel, bolt slam, and gas escaping through the 2 holes in the bolt will blow you away, the difference is like night and day. There is a reason people shooting ar's are walking around with ringing ears, even with ear plugs. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:32:23 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Go watch some PRS videos. I've shot some stages where I fired more through a bolt gun than an AR in a 2/3gun match. I think suppressors have pretty much hit the peak on AR15s, minus maybe working on back pressure / dwell time. But getting that carrier noise down should be the next thing to work out. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:34:20 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This what you seek? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/156294/IMG_6956-286980.JPG Works ok vents the gas out the side, still get some back in the face but not as bad as a normal carrier. Sir James... But it's still venting at your ears louder than at the end of the suppressor. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:35:05 AM EST
[#25]
If youre talking about shooting supersonic 5.56mm, I don't understand the point in going so far to try and make the carrier a tiny bit more quiet
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:37:55 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If youre talking about shooting supersonic 5.56mm, I don't understand the point in going so far to try and make the carrier a tiny bit more quiet |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:39:55 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hearing safe at the ears and less gas in the face. Hell my bolt gun in .223 is still loud suppressed This is what you are looking for if you want truly hearing safe, and you also wouldn't have to worry about gas 
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:46:47 AM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If youre talking about shooting supersonic 5.56mm, I don't understand the point in going so far to try and make the carrier a tiny bit more quiet Some platforms and cartridges just lend themselves better to suppression. Like heavy 9mm in an MP5, or 38 in a lever action. But 5.56 is a hot rod, and that muzzle blast and sonic crack is going to be loud no matter what. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:09:03 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive had other 5.56mm platforms such as a HK 93 clone and it was still loud suppressed. Hell my bolt gun in .223 is still loud suppressed This is what you are looking for if you want truly hearing safe, and you also wouldn't have to worry about gas http://i.imgur.com/riMXx89h.jpg http://i.imgur.com/xm7Ry1wh.jpg But I was just seeing if there's anything to do about quieting down the BCG venting gas. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:10:37 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This Some platforms and cartridges just lend themselves better to suppression. Like heavy 9mm in an MP5, or 38 in a lever action. But 5.56 is a hot rod, and that muzzle blast and sonic crack is going to be loud no matter what. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:37:41 AM EST
[#31]
The AR-15 with a properly sized gas port and adjustable gas block is the quietest autoloading 5.56x45 carbine there is, especially with longer barrels.
I hunt with an 18" 5.56 AR-15 suppressed and I am amazed at how quiet it is. The gas port is sized correctly and it has an adjustable gas block which really helps. It's really not much louder with the gas on than with the gas off. The piston on barrel guns all vent gas directly in front of your face from the gas block and most of them are over-gassed to begin with which is only exacerbated by a can. Some of the piston on barrel guns are better than others, for instance the FN rifles have a gas port screw that allows you to install a smaller port for suppressed use. You can also modify the gas vent ports to reduce the gas block noise. I did this with my FS-2000 and it was then pretty quiet with a can, especially for a bullpup. Not as quiet as an AR-15 but close. The roller locked guns are sensitive to back pressure and unlock too early with a can... lots of gas blowback and noise through the breech area when suppressed. They are worse than the piston on barrel guns in 5.56mm. They just suck in general actually. Pass. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:43:32 AM EST
[#32]
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My CZ Scorpion is great suppressed, along with the 22s and stuff. But I was just seeing if there's anything to do about quieting down the BCG venting gas. Reduce the pressure and youll have cycling issues at some point, well before the high velocity gasses are quiet however. A WAR upper is along the lines of what youre talking about. It reduces gas flow to te BCG. But it is still loud. Even if you could eliminate all sound from the BCG its still going to be loud. Youre getting noise from the barrel unsealing and gasses flowing out backwards from the barrel as well. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:05:14 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its a high pressure gas getting injected directly into the BCG to operate the firearm. Reduce the pressure and youll have cycling issues at some point, well before the high velocity gasses are quiet however. A WAR upper is along the lines of what youre talking about. It reduces gas flow to te BCG. But it is still loud. Even if you could eliminate all sound from the BCG its still going to be loud. Youre getting noise from the barrel unsealing and gasses flowing out backwards from the barrel as well. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:08:49 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My AK is loud as fuck suppressed. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:12:14 AM EST
[#35]
 Standard AR style rifles do not shit where they eat...
There are some french models that put gas into the chamber but the piston in an AR15 type rifle stops the gas and vents the majority of it through the ejection port. Those gas rings on the bolt are what seals the piston. 
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Posted: 8/22/2017 11:22:58 AM EST
[#36]
My W.A.R upper receiver is noticeably quieter than my uppers with adjustable gas blocks. The W.AR. also gets dirtier in the front of the receiver under the hand guard so there is some venting there. I shoot lefty and this is also gives less gas to the face.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 3:22:57 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Standard AR style rifles do not shit where they eat...
There are some french models that put gas into the chamber but the piston in an AR15 type rifle stops the gas and vents the majority of it through the ejection port. Those gas rings on the bolt are what seals the piston. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 3:27:20 PM EST
[#38]
Loud pipes save lives
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Posted: 8/22/2017 3:31:33 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My W.A.R upper receiver is noticeably quieter than my uppers with adjustable gas blocks. The W.AR. also gets dirtier in the front of the receiver under the hand guard so there is some venting there. I shoot lefty and this is also gives less gas to the face. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/167780/Grendel_Rifle_War_Close-287274.JPG |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 3:39:07 PM EST
[#40]
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It's asshole is close to its mouth. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Standard AR style rifles do not shit where they eat...
There are some french models that put gas into the chamber but the piston in an AR15 type rifle stops the gas and vents the majority of it through the ejection port. Those gas rings on the bolt are what seals the piston. 
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Posted: 8/22/2017 3:46:20 PM EST
[#41]
Quote History |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 3:52:33 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyway to delay the blowback like the HK93s? You cant make the sound go away because the sound is what makes the gun operate, if that makes sense ARs need a certain amount of high pressure gas to get the carrier moving. Decrease it and sure you might have a rifle that's a tiny bit quieter at the ear, but then it wont function. Now gassing it properly for suppressed will make it quieter than if it is vastly overgassed. But youre still going to have ejection port noise, and all of it isn't just from the carrier operating. Go shoot a suppressed .223 bolt gun. Its honestly not that much quieter than a AR. Bottom line is I think what youre chasing, even if you did somehow eliminate the carrier noise, it would still be louder than you think it will be. If youre wanting a truly quiet suppressed gun, you need to move to subsonic speeds. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 4:05:22 PM EST
[#43]
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You know insulting people is against the CoC, and you missed the joke. Quote HistoryQuoted:
You know insulting people is against the CoC, and you missed the joke. Anyway, why don't you go ahead and build yourself a roller locked AR-15 since it appears that is what you are waiting for someone to tell you to do? Do it and let us know how it goes. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 4:08:01 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's asshole is close to its mouth. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Standard AR style rifles do not shit where they eat...
There are some french models that put gas into the chamber but the piston in an AR15 type rifle stops the gas and vents the majority of it through the ejection port. Those gas rings on the bolt are what seals the piston. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 4:14:39 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its already delayed. The bolt is locked during firing and only unlocked when cycling starts. You cant make the sound go away because the sound is what makes the gun operate, if that makes sense ARs need a certain amount of high pressure gas to get the carrier moving. Decrease it and sure you might have a rifle that's a tiny bit quieter at the ear, but then it wont function. Now gassing it properly for suppressed will make it quieter than if it is vastly overgassed. But youre still going to have ejection port noise, and all of it isn't just from the carrier operating. Go shoot a suppressed .223 bolt gun. Its honestly not that much quieter than a AR. Bottom line is I think what youre chasing, even if you did somehow eliminate the carrier noise, it would still be louder than you think it will be. If youre wanting a truly quiet suppressed gun, you need to move to subsonic speeds. I shoot 6.5 cm from a bolt action, know the difference in sounds between a bolt action and semi gas gun. My 8.5" 300blk AR is pretty quiet. I was just seeing if anyone has any solutions, I was thinking of maybe having the BCG vent to the left and then finding a way to let it vent out another way. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 4:16:48 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think I'm hunting for about 5 dB in reduction to the shooters ear from the AR. I shoot 6.5 cm from a bolt action, know the difference in sounds between a bolt action and semi gas gun. My 8.5" 300blk AR is pretty quiet. I was just seeing if anyone has any solutions, I was thinking of maybe having the BCG vent to the left and then finding a way to let it vent out another way. You need a 9mm MP5 with heavy ammo in your life. Or maybe even this 
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Posted: 8/22/2017 4:25:52 PM EST
[#47]
I think getting 5dB of reduction via managing the gas differently is... extremely optimistic.
Just the action cycling at full speed on most any semi-auto weapon is pretty fucking loud. |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 4:29:06 PM EST
[#48]
Gas system he says...
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Posted: 8/22/2017 4:29:58 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryArent those loud as fuck suppressed though? I mean comparatively to other 9mm systems
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Posted: 8/22/2017 4:30:30 PM EST
[#50]
If you need it that much quieter, you need a bolt action. Or pump.
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