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Posted: 8/13/2007 2:14:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/15/2007 9:59:57 AM EDT by SkiShooter]
http://www.juneauempire.com/stories/081307/loc_20070813020.shtml

Web posted August 13, 2007

Residents question use of deadly force
Juneau police contend officer was threatened

KEN LEWIS
JUNEAU EMPIRE

When witnesses saw Randall Clevenger assault a woman Friday night and heard him say he wanted to kill himself, they figured he would spend some time in jail.

But after hearing the three police gunshots that killed Clevenger, resident Fred Oleson can't help but question how the incident unfolded.

"I don't see how they can justify the shooting," Oleson said. "The guy had a sword. They're equipped with Tasers and mace ... He didn't have to kill the guy."

Days after Juneau's first officer-involved homicide in years, many residents in the mobile home park where it happened remain disturbed and upset. Despite the reaction, Juneau police Sgt. Dave Campbell responded that "the only logical choice for the officer was to use his handgun."

The suspect screamed at the officer to kill him while he advanced on the officer with a samurai-style sword in his arms, Campbell said. The officer backed away until he was unable to back away more.

"Basically put, the officer was being threatened with deadly force, and we respond to deadly force with deadly force," Campbell said. "It would be absolutely inappropriate for the officer, when his life is jeopardized with a sword, to respond with a Taser or OC spray. There are numerous instances where people have used pepper spray or a Taser and the device has failed. So when an officer is being threatened with deadly force, you're not going to rely on something that can fail."

The police continued to withhold the name of the officer who shot Clevenger. He has been put on administrative leave.

Residents of Thunder Mountain Mobile Park - a neighborhood at the end of Thunder Mountain Road near the Mendenhall Glacier - became involved shortly after the incident started Friday evening. Oleson and his friends were watching a movie when the barking of a dog alerted them to the developing problem.

Clevenger, 40, was outside and locked in a confrontation with two women. He had a knife in his hand was holding a woman by her neck, telling her he would kill her, witnesses said.

Oleson walked off his porch and started approaching Clevenger.

"He pointed the knife at me and said to stay where I was," Oleson said. "He said he was going to take care of what he had to take care of and then he was going to kill himself."

Clevenger appeared to be distraught about a relationship, and Oleson said he seemed "intoxicated and very passionate about his feelings."

"He made a bad decision. But it wasn't worth three in the chest," Oleson said.

Clevenger ran away when he heard sirens, Oleson said. Law enforcement officers arrived on scene, and one officer started interviewing people in the vicinity of the assault. At the far end of the road in a wooded area, another officer located Clevenger.

"That's when we heard the shots," Oleson said. "It was bang, bang, bang."

"I just don't understand why the police officer didn't shoot him in the leg," he said.

Police are trained to shoot at "center mass," the center of the chest, not at arms or legs, Campbell said.

"He screamed at the top of his lungs for the officer to kill him," Campbell said, adding that the interaction between the officer and Clevenger was recorded on a tape recorder. The recording was not released to the public.

"It was a very dynamic, violent situation, and the officer tried to maintain distance," Campbell said. "He tried to extract himself. When the officer couldn't go any further, that's when he used his firearm."

• Contact Ken Lewis at 523-2263 or ken.lewis@juneauempire.com.

Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:17:41 PM EDT
So, if the accepted "lethal circle" is 21' with a "regular" fixed blade knife of 4-12", does a 30" blade extend it to 24'?
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:20:50 PM EDT
I love the "why didn't they just shoot him in the leg" comments.

Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:21:11 PM EDT
JBT, he could easily have just shot the sword out of his hand.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:21:17 PM EDT


"I don't see how they can justify the shooting," Oleson said. "The guy had a sword. They're equipped with Tasers and mace ... He didn't have to kill the guy."

"I just don't understand why the police officer didn't shoot him in the leg," he said.



Fred Oleson, it seems, is an idiot. Too bad he didn't walk off his porch.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:22:07 PM EDT
Was this the guy?
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:22:33 PM EDT
Seems like a good kill to me...
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:23:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HARDCAYSEN:
JBT, he could easily have just shot the sword out of his hand.


after he tossed a flashbang...
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:23:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By justice23:


"I don't see how they can justify the shooting," Oleson said. "The guy had a sword. They're equipped with Tasers and mace ... He didn't have to kill the guy."

"I just don't understand why the police officer didn't shoot him in the leg," he said.



Fred Oleson, it seems, is an idiot. Too bad he didn't walk off his porch.


I'm going to guess Fred Oleson has never done any tameshigiri.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:23:44 PM EDT
If Fred Oleson wants to stand there with a taser and mace against a samurai wielding opponent, he's got more cajones than most cops. Tough it if he gets sliced & diced. As for myself, I'd shoot anyone coming at me with a sword.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:23:54 PM EDT
3 shots eh; two to the chest one to the head?
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:25:48 PM EDT
Good shoot
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:25:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:27:17 PM EDT
Thats a compltely unjustified shooting. The officer should have drawn his samurai sword and had a matrix fight.

Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:27:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tango7:
So, if the accepted "lethal circle" is 21' with a "regular" fixed blade knife of 4-12", does a 30" blade extend it to 24'?


My thought exactly reading the thread title.

Anyone approaching me with a blade and making threats gets no closer than that magic number without dire consequences.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:29:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wave:
BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG.......I SAID PUT THAT F-ING SWORD DOWN!!!!


<golf clap>
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:29:52 PM EDT
He should have used verbal judo!
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:32:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By phantomghost:
Thats a compltely unjustified shooting. The officer should have drawn his samurai sword and had a matrix fight.



Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:35:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:36:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
I would have caught the sword between my palms when he swung and kicked him in the peach.

To each his own.


I'd have guessed that was Wave's plan.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:38:47 PM EDT
Which one of these do you think Mr. Oleson is?

Question: How do you tell the difference between Democrats,
>Republicans
> > > and Southern Republicans? The answer can be found by posing the
> > > following
> > > question:
> > >
> > > You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small

> > > children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife
comes
> > > around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities,
raises
>the
> > > knife, and charges. You are carrying a Glock 9 mm, and you are an
>expert
> > > shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.
>What
> > > do you do?
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Democrat's Answer:
> > >
> > > Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does
the
>man
> > > look poor or Oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that
would
> > > inspire him to attack? Could we run! away? What does my wife
think?
>What
> > > about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and
knock
>the
> > > knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation?
>Does
> > > the Glock have appropriate safety built into it? Why am I carrying
a
> > > loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to
>society
> > > and to my children? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing
>me?
> > > Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to
>wound
> > > me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get
>away
> > > while he was stabbing me? Should I call 9-1-1? Why is this street
so
> > > deserted? We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and
make
> > > this a happier, healthier street that would discourage such
>behavior.
> > > This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends
>for a
> > > few days and try to come to a consensus.

> > >
~ Republican's Answer:
> > >
BANG!

> > >
> > > Southern Republican's Answer:
> > >
> > > BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
>click....(sounds
> > > of reloading). BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
BANG!
> > > click
> > > Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver
Tips??"
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:38:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:39:01 PM EDT
Go to a couple of knife homicides. Having done so, my rule is as follows: If I see somebody with a knife in his hand, he'd better have a fork in the other hand, or I'm gonna shoot.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:40:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:40:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FLAL1A:
Go to a couple of knife homicides. Having done so, my rule is as follows: If I see somebody with a knife in his hand, he'd better have a fork in the other hand, or I'm gonna shoot.


I think I've seen an autopsy photo where it was only a fork!
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:42:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:44:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:

Originally Posted By Wave:
WTF? Are you implying that all Asians know martial arts and stuff?

(OK, OK so I do have a 1st degree black belt in classical Jiu-Jitsu)


No, he knows your dept doesn't trust you to carry a gun...




No, he knows with the 19 1/2 pound NYPD trigger (aka LiabilitLawyer v3.5β) it would be faster and result in more hits on target if he used a sword instead of his issue sidearm...
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:50:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jeeper21:
Was this the guy?
farm1.static.flickr.com/228/448075857_6b35a4a29a.jpg


Nice.

The old "shoot them in the leg" rechnique would just get them in more legal hot water. Deadly-force tools have no other application. If you have to shoot someone, it means the situation justifies the lethal level of force. Otherwise it doesn't, so don't draw down.

Good shoot. Unfortunate final chapter for the assailant. Life goes on.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:55:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wave:

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
I would have caught the sword between my palms when he swung and kicked him in the peach.

To each his own.


I'd have guessed that was Wave's plan.


WTF? Are you implying that all Asians know martial arts and stuff?

(OK, OK so I do have a 1st degree black belt in classical Jiu-Jitsu)


And you still got beat up by a girl. I saw the photos....
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 2:56:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 3:14:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 3:16:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2007 3:18:26 PM EDT by Rogue-one]
There is a board member, and LEO, who had almost the same situation. The board member was armed with an 870 with five bean bag rounds in it. His two fellow officers were providing leathal coverage with 4006s. When the small team found the guy on the second floor, and began to talk with him, the nut charged them. Our board member, LEO, walked all five bean bag rounds up the guy ( from the waist up) with no effect. It was a verry close range event, and by the time his lethal coverage re-positioned for a shot, our board member was using his 870 to block sword blows, and his lethal coverage had to shoot the guy off him. Yes the crazy guy died of his gunshot wounds and yes our dept is getting sued over it. Our board member, who I know very well and owe him for all the training and good advice he has given me, has lost all faith in less leathal options when confronted with a lethal threat. His story is a prime example of why you need leathal coverage when deploying a less leathal device against a person who has a leathal weapon, and having that coverage and a plan is not always going to happen on the average radio call.

A quick note on the all mighty taser. I have seen a a bunch of bad guys and mentaly ill people tased, and for the most part it works great if you get good hits. To get good hits you need to be much closer then I would even think of getting to a person with a sword who was refusing to put the sword down. Mentally Ill person + sword = AR comes out of the rack!

Use of OC is a coin toss. I would not bet my life on it.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 3:19:31 PM EDT
juneau empire

I thought it was a different country.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 3:59:27 PM EDT
aim for the face

thats what i say
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 4:01:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rogue-one:
There is a board member, and LEO, who had almost the same situation. The board member was armed with an 870 with five bean bag rounds in it. His two fellow officers were providing leathal coverage with 4006s. When the small team found the guy on the second floor, and began to talk with him, the nut charged them. Our board member, LEO, walked all five bean bag rounds up the guy ( from the waist up) with no effect. It was a verry close range event, and by the time his lethal coverage re-positioned for a shot, our board member was using his 870 to block sword blows, and his lethal coverage had to shoot the guy off him. Yes the crazy guy died of his gunshot wounds and yes our dept is getting sued over it. Our board member, who I know very well and owe him for all the training and good advice he has given me, has lost all faith in less leathal options when confronted with a lethal threat. His story is a prime example of why you need leathal coverage when deploying a less leathal device against a person who has a leathal weapon, and having that coverage and a plan is not always going to happen on the average radio call.

A quick note on the all mighty taser. I have seen a a bunch of bad guys and mentaly ill people tased, and for the most part it works great if you get good hits. To get good hits you need to be much closer then I would even think of getting to a person with a sword who was refusing to put the sword down. Mentally Ill person + sword = AR comes out of the rack!

Use of OC is a coin toss. I would not bet my life on it.


What he said.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 4:02:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Too bad they didn't have a shotgn Taser round, or six, ready to go.


Just Taser the sword. Conductivity is a bitch, ain't it?
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 4:05:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fatbert:

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Too bad they didn't have a shotgn Taser round, or six, ready to go.


Just Taser the sword. Conductivity is a bitch, ain't it?


Well, you still need to points to complete the circuit. The further they are apart the better the Taser works.

They have a new shotgun fired Taser, 100 ft range, and 20 seconds of "funky chicken".
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 4:11:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wave:

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
I would have caught the sword between my palms when he swung and kicked him in the peach.

To each his own.


I'd have guessed that was Wave's plan.


WTF? Are you implying that all Asians know martial arts and stuff?

(OK, OK so I do have a 1st degree black belt in classical Jiu-Jitsu)


You're Jiuish?
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 4:20:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/13/2007 4:22:19 PM EDT by Ripak]
F Him...live by the Sword die by the Gun.
I think the World is now a better place, well at least Alaska is.

For you that put such a high value on everyone's life.

Growup or Wakeup...Some "Lives" are truly worthless and should be ended for the betterment of all Mankind.

Harsh words? YES. But I just don't care if you're having a bad day. Don't make others have a bad day with you.

Edit spelling
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 4:20:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wave:
BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG.......I SAID PUT THAT F-ING SWORD DOWN!!!!


Didn't know they let you carry 1911's on the NYPD
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 4:55:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HARDCAYSEN:
Which one of these do you think Mr. Oleson is?

Question: How do you tell the difference between Democrats,
>Republicans
> > > and Southern Republicans? The answer can be found by posing the
> > > following
> > > question:
> > >
> > > You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small

> > > children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife
comes
> > > around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities,
raises
>the
> > > knife, and charges. You are carrying a Glock 9 mm, and you are an
>expert
> > > shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.
>What
> > > do you do?
> > >
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Democrat's Answer:
> > >
> > > Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does
the
>man
> > > look poor or Oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that
would
> > > inspire him to attack? Could we run! away? What does my wife
think?
>What
> > > about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and
knock
>the
> > > knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation?
>Does
> > > the Glock have appropriate safety built into it? Why am I carrying
a
> > > loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to
>society
> > > and to my children? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing
>me?
> > > Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to
>wound
> > > me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get
>away
> > > while he was stabbing me? Should I call 9-1-1? Why is this street
so
> > > deserted? We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and
make
> > > this a happier, healthier street that would discourage such
>behavior.
> > > This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends
>for a
> > > few days and try to come to a consensus.

> > >
~ Republican's Answer:
> > >
BANG!

> > >
> > > Southern Republican's Answer:
> > >
> > > BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
>click....(sounds
> > > of reloading). BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!
BANG!
> > > click
> > > Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver
Tips??"

Now that is some funny stuff there! Sad but, so very true!
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:00:18 PM EDT
The guy wanted to die, he got his wish. What's the effin problem!!
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:05:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BangStick1:
The guy wanted to die, he got his wish. What's the effin problem!!


Bleeding heart assholes always try to spin things around. I wish we can purge America of all the traitors and leftists.
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:08:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By phantomghost:
Thats a compltely unjustified shooting. The officer should have drawn his samurai sword and had a matrix fight.



and put the dash cam vid on you tube
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:08:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rogue-one:
There is a board member, and LEO, who had almost the same situation. The board member was armed with an 870 with five bean bag rounds in it. His two fellow officers were providing leathal coverage with 4006s. When the small team found the guy on the second floor, and began to talk with him, the nut charged them. Our board member, LEO, walked all five bean bag rounds up the guy ( from the waist up) with no effect. It was a verry close range event, and by the time his lethal coverage re-positioned for a shot, our board member was using his 870 to block sword blows, and his lethal coverage had to shoot the guy off him. Yes the crazy guy died of his gunshot wounds and yes our dept is getting sued over it. Our board member, who I know very well and owe him for all the training and good advice he has given me, has lost all faith in less leathal options when confronted with a lethal threat. His story is a prime example of why you need leathal coverage when deploying a less leathal device against a person who has a leathal weapon, and having that coverage and a plan is not always going to happen on the average radio call.

A quick note on the all mighty taser. I have seen a a bunch of bad guys and mentaly ill people tased, and for the most part it works great if you get good hits. To get good hits you need to be much closer then I would even think of getting to a person with a sword who was refusing to put the sword down. Mentally Ill person + sword = AR comes out of the rack!

Use of OC is a coin toss. I would not bet my life on it.


That about says it.
Someone wielding a sword, even if they don't really know what they're doing with it,
can cause serious physical and/or lethal damage.
Most definitely a case of responding with lethal force. (Which means just that LETHAL, not "shooting in the leg". )
Link Posted: 8/13/2007 5:27:11 PM EDT

Days after Juneau's first officer-involved homicide in years, many residents in the mobile home park where it happened remain disturbed and upset. Despite the reaction, Juneau police Sgt. Dave Campbell responded that "the only logical choice for the officer was to use his handgun."


Nope, don't care.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 9:58:30 AM EDT
Alaska Newsreader
Today's news for the Last Frontier

By Terry Carr

Published: August 15, 2007
Last Modified: August 15, 2007 at 09:03 AM


News for Wednesday, Aug. 15


DA clears officer in fatal shooting. The Juneau Empire reports this morning that the district attorney has concluded a city policeman was justified in shooting and killing a sword-wielding man on Friday.


The DA’s report found that the officer, Sgt. Paul Hatch, had retreated as far as he could when confronted by Randall Clevenger, an assault suspect armed with a samurai-style sword. The story quotes from the report of DA Doug Gardner: “Without any other options, and being essentially trapped between Mr. Clevenger and an abandoned truck, Sgt. Hatch continued to try and defuse the advancing and armed Mr. Clevenger. … When Sgt. Hatch shot Mr. Clevenger, he was out of options and was facing almost certain serious physical injury or death.”


Hatch shot Clevenger three times.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 10:36:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 10:55:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Watcher:

Originally Posted By phantomghost:
Thats a compltely unjustified shooting. The officer should have drawn his samurai sword and had a matrix fight.



and put the dash cam vid on you tube


+1
Best idea thus far in this thread.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 11:01:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wave:

Originally Posted By SmilingBandit:

Originally Posted By NorCal_LEO:
I would have caught the sword between my palms when he swung and kicked him in the peach.

To each his own.


I'd have guessed that was Wave's plan.


WTF? Are you implying that all Asians know martial arts and stuff?

(OK, OK so I do have a 1st degree black belt in classical Jiu-Jitsu)


Ching chang chong! j/k I'm coming to NY soon, please don't put a mop handle in my poopchute.
Link Posted: 8/15/2007 11:05:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SkiShooter:
The DA’s report found that the officer, Sgt. Paul Hatch, had retreated as far as he could when confronted by Randall Clevenger, an assault suspect armed with a samurai-style sword.


Wow, assault suspects... they're even more dangerous than normal ones!
Hell, we all know the sword was just a cosmetic feature like a bayonet





Sorry, couldn't resist.
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