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Posted: 9/23/2005 9:26:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 9:26:40 AM EDT by thelastgunslinger]
I just received this e-mail from a friend of mine. The girl who wrote it is a friend of her boss.

Hi all -

I just wanted to send out and email to alert everyone and let you know what happened to myself and 4 friends on Friday night - in Cherry Creek North...yep Cherry Creek North.

We (myslef, Karen, her boyfiend Mark, Karen's brother Rick and his wife Carol) were walking back from Sushi Tazu on Friday night, about 9:30pm. We were walking to our cars which were parked between 3rd and 4th on Milwaukee. We were crossing the street, mid-street, when a car came rushing down the street throwing us off our guard. The next thing I knew I was standing chest to chest with a hispanic man, about 5 foot 9-10. He had grabbed my left arm, told me "this is serious" and I felt something in my abdomen. When I looked down it was a silver 9mm. He ripped my purse from me, threw me against a car and patted my down for what I can only assume was a cell phone. As this was going on, his counter part, a white male, same height, was doing the same with a friend Mark. The two then moved onto Carol, Karen and then Rick, who faught to hold onto his wallet. He was the only one that was hit. He was punchedin the face 2-3 times. Once they had all our purses, wallets and cell phones they proceeded North on Milwaukee. They stopped off in a front yard and heard them say "we have all their cell phones, they can't call the cops". Then they took off running again heading to 4th, turning left and then a witness spotted them running North on Fillmore heading toward 6th. Mark had managed to come out of it with a cell phone, and he called the police. They had a helicopter in the air immediately and about 3-4 cars arrived. Unfortunately they were able to get away. I am hoping my getting this out that most importantly, this will alert all of us and make us more aware, and secondly, maybe this will trigger some witnesses to anything relating to this. Please pass this along to everyone you know and care about.

We are working closely with the police and they have said that this was a rare occurence, but it is the most violent and aggressive crime they are working with currently. We have been ranked #1 in importance with them - what an achievement eh? We are also working with the "manager" of cherry creek. He has contacted all the stores and restaurants in the area and are working to increase security/lighting in the area. Apparently this is something he has been trying to get passed for the past few years, but they don't seem to think it is worth spending the money. So if any of you have any influence in this area, please press the issue!

Please be careful. As you can see, there was 5 of us, 3 women and 2 men, which show that you can throw of the window - safety in numbers and feeling safe with a man. You just need to never have your guard down and assume that you are safe - cause you just never know!

Please pass along and be safe!
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 9:31:03 AM EDT
poor situational awareness.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 9:36:12 AM EDT
A few times I have had a car act suspicious behind me....

I just pull up my shirt put my hand on my Piece and turn around.

mind you this is after a car was following me at walking speed in my apt parking lot for like 50 yards.



if someone(s) is walking towards me, I will actually cross the street or stop till they go by.
I have had people follow me on foot too, one guy was pan handling at a 7-11.
He asked for change, i said no cash. I walked off towards my apt. next thing I know the guy is following me.
So i casually look back and adjust my pistol. He decided to go back to the front of the store.


SA. its important.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 9:41:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By azcopwannabee:
A few times I have had a car act suspicious behind me....

I just pull up my shirt put my hand on my Piece and turn around.

mind you this is after a car was following me at walking speed in my apt parking lot for like 50 yards.



if someone(s) is walking towards me, I will actually cross the street or stop till they go by.
I have had people follow me on foot too, one guy was pan handling at a 7-11.
He asked for change, i said no cash. I walked off towards my apt. next thing I know the guy is following me.
So i casually look back and adjust my pistol. He decided to go back to the front of the store.


SA. its important.



Cars can not act suspicious only people.
If you stick your hand in your pants and grab your piece, you may get arrested for lewd behaviour.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 9:41:31 AM EDT
A classic story that warrants the need to carry a firearm. Funny, though, I have a permit and have yet to carry a concealed weapon. I also adjust my behavior based on what I see happening around me.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 10:04:33 AM EDT
Clearly a SA problem, and the author acknowledged the need to be more aware. I wonder what exactly that means to her.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 10:10:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
Clearly a SA problem, and the author acknowledged the need to be more aware. I wonder what exactly that means to her.



It probably means that she should try and be a better witness/victim next time. Also she seemed to come away with the impression that resistance is bad. Her story about the only guy resisting resulted in a few knocks to the head.
Who knows what will happen with her. Hopefully she doesn't turn into an anti.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 10:16:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
We were walking to our cars which were parked between 3rd and 4th on Milwaukee. We were crossing the street, mid-street, when a car came rushing down the street throwing us off our guard.



1) Draw weapon.
2) Move myself and wife/SO to cover


The next thing I knew I was standing chest to chest with a hispanic man, about 5 foot 9-10. He had grabbed my left arm, told me "this is serious" and I felt something in my abdomen.


3) As men approach, yell stop.
4) If continued, train front sight on center of mass

Refuse to be sheep people.

*sigh* I'm preaching to the chior here. My wife finally understands why I carry all the time now tho. All it took is for me to point out all the news with people assaulted in "nice" neighborhoods for a couple of years.

Link Posted: 9/23/2005 12:39:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:

Originally Posted By azcopwannabee:
A few times I have had a car act suspicious behind me....

I just pull up my shirt put my hand on my Piece and turn around.

mind you this is after a car was following me at walking speed in my apt parking lot for like 50 yards.



if someone(s) is walking towards me, I will actually cross the street or stop till they go by.
I have had people follow me on foot too, one guy was pan handling at a 7-11.
He asked for change, i said no cash. I walked off towards my apt. next thing I know the guy is following me.
So i casually look back and adjust my pistol. He decided to go back to the front of the store.


SA. its important.



Cars can not act suspicious only people.
If you stick your hand in your pants and grab your piece, you may get arrested for lewd behaviour.



Especially if he brandishes it.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 3:57:46 PM EDT
I live in Denver, I would have had to draw down on those guys. I carry my gun on me even if I go to Cherry Creek mall or anywhere in Colorado. Thanks for the info about these scum bags around Denver..

Hey thelastgunslinger,
It doesn't sound like you have a CCW permit, I would get one if I were you. Getting a CCW permit is not that hard to get. I know having a gun might not have stopped this, but maybe it would have. Glad that you were not hurt and hope your friend that got punched is alright.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 4:31:25 PM EDT
bang, bang, bang, bang
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:02:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:We were walking to our cars which were parked between 3rd and 4th on Milwaukee. We were crossing the street, mid-street, when a car came rushing down the street throwing us off our guard. The next thing I knew I was standing chest to chest with a hispanic man, about 5 foot 9-10.



What prevented them from running away?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:08:48 PM EDT
Too bad no CCWs.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:13:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Quien:
bang, bang, bang, bang,bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang



fixed it for you
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:18:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 5:19:18 PM EDT by TrashHeap]
That very senerio reminded me of the hijacking on 9/11. Only one out of 4 had the men on board with guts.

Guess which one those people were.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:19:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 5:20:55 PM EDT by Vulcan94]

Originally Posted By operatorerror:

Originally Posted By Quien:
bang, bang, bang, bang,bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang reload bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang



fixed it for you




NOW it's fixed.



Vulcan94
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:20:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
poor situational awareness.



Yet she knew it was a "silver 9mm"


R
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:22:59 PM EDT

We were crossing the street, mid-street, when a car came rushing down the street throwing us off our guard. The next thing I knew I was standing chest to chest with a hispanic man, about 5 foot 9-10.


I want to know what happend during the "next thing I knew" time period. That seems like the time to draw or run.

I love having CCW. I live in a rough neighborhood and I feel in control when I have to walk around at night. I am on the lookout and ready to act if necessary instead of just waiting to be a victim.

Of course I live about two blocks down the street from this guy www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/local/crime_courts/12682578.htm So I don't think the criminals will be trying anything again soon
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:24:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 5:24:38 PM EDT by leelaw]

Originally Posted By Vulcan94:

Originally Posted By operatorerror:

Originally Posted By Quien:
bang, bang, bang, bang,bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang reload bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang "Nice grouping, dad!"



fixed it for you


NOW it's fixed.



Now it's REALLY fixed.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:26:18 PM EDT
Rule #1: Shoot to slidelock.

Rule #2: Reload and scan.

Rule #3: Repeat as necessary.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 5:26:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BigBeas:

We were crossing the street, mid-street, when a car came rushing down the street throwing us off our guard. The next thing I knew I was standing chest to chest with a hispanic man, about 5 foot 9-10.


I want to know what happend during the "next thing I knew" time period. That seems like the time to draw or run.



A very under-utilized 'tactic'.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 8:05:49 PM EDT
my lame story, got ridiculed, BFD, my situational awareness level was on high: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=388294
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 8:12:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 8:16:41 PM EDT by thelastgunslinger]

Originally Posted By glock1974:
I live in Denver, I would have had to draw down on those guys. I carry my gun on me even if I go to Cherry Creek mall or anywhere in Colorado. Thanks for the info about these scum bags around Denver..

Hey thelastgunslinger,
It doesn't sound like you have a CCW permit, I would get one if I were you. Getting a CCW permit is not that hard to get. I know having a gun might not have stopped this, but maybe it would have. Glad that you were not hurt and hope your friend that got punched is alright.




I do have a CCW. Read it again, it didn't happen to me but to a friend of a friend. If I had been there I would hope that my situational awareness would have prevented it from happening. And barring that my Glock 19 would have been in use.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 8:14:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Trumpet:

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
poor situational awareness.



Yet she knew it was a "silver 9mm"


R



I wondered about that myself. I think to the uneducated any semi-auto pistol is a "9mm"
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 8:15:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 8:15:25 PM EDT by thelastgunslinger]

Originally Posted By TxLawDog:
Rule #1: Shoot to slidelock until the threat is gone.

Rule #2: Reload and scan.

Rule #3: Repeat as necessary.



fixed
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 8:26:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
When I looked down it was a silver 9mm.



How'd she know it was a 9mm? May seem like a sill question, but it popped in my head while reading it.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 8:28:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 8:29:53 PM EDT by rtech]

Originally Posted By Quien:
bang, bang, bang, bang



bang, bang, bang, bang, reload - bang, bang, bang, bang

Then we all argue about whose shots were the lethal ones.....


I was having pizza with some friends after an IDPA match. There were 7 of us and one was an instructor/former national ranked shooter. All of us were armed. All of us were really good. We were standing in the parking lot shooting the crap.

A carload of Hispanics pulls up (maybe 6-7) and starts yelling jibberish and acting aggressive.

Instantly, 7 guys turn to address threat, cover garmets get pulled back and we all went to a combat grip on our sidearms. Well, there came a chorus of "SSSHHHEEEEIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTT!!!!!" and off they went.

We went back to a conversation of "what if" and "I had the best grouping!!!!"

I still get a laugh when I think of it.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 8:41:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 8:49:19 PM EDT by FLGreg]

Originally Posted By shadowboxerone:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
When I looked down it was a silver 9mm.



How'd she know it was a 9mm? May seem like a sill question, but it popped in my head while reading it.



+1.

Friend of a friend, Silver 9mm yet doesn't give a detailed description of the assailants (other than a "hispanic man" and a "white male") and the trigger phrase -"Please pass this along to everyone you know and care about"????

We'll see this on Snopes in a week or so like the "good samaritan warns a female driver about the armed and dangerous man hiding in the back seat of her car" legend.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 8:42:20 PM EDT
So how come these "Bad Guys" Drove up, but had to Run away?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 8:47:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 8:48:17 PM EDT by rara1141]

Originally Posted By Vulcan94:

Originally Posted By operatorerror:

Originally Posted By Quien:
bang, bang, bang, bang,bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang reload bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang



fixed it for you




NOW it's fixed.



Vulcan94




BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR­RRP. There. Now it's REALLY fixed.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 8:48:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/23/2005 8:49:13 PM EDT by TomHighway]
As I see the world, you have two basic theories of personal safety:

1. You do not own a weapon and forbid anyone to have one in your home. You think that gun control is a great idea and that criminals will not own or carry guns because it is against the gun law. You believe that the police will protect you every second of the day. You feel comfortable putting your safety and the safety of your family in the hands of a criminal that is trying to rob you. You basically are a sheep.

2. Alternatively, you believe in rugged individualism, and you are willing to take charge of your life and your own safety. You believe in the the 2nd amendment. You own one or more weapons, and you go to the gun range regularly to make sure that your weapon is in good working order and that you can use it effectively. You believe that gun control is a liberal feel-good gesture that only takes weapons out of the hands of honest people. You think that having a well-armed populace is a great deterent to criminals that want to rob or kill you or your family.

I just don't understand the group that believes in Theory No. 1. However, I think this thread would have had a happier ending had a member of the group that was robbed been armed and aware of the threat. My view is that 5 dead victims is a bad result. Two dead POS stopped in the act of armed robbery is a good result and actually helps with the evolution of the human race. Just my opinion.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 8:52:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rtech:

Originally Posted By Quien:
bang, bang, bang, bang



bang, bang, bang, bang, reload - bang, bang, bang, bang

Then we all argue about whose shots were the lethal ones.....


I was having pizza with some friends after an IDPA match. There were 7 of us and one was an instructor/former national ranked shooter. All of us were armed. All of us were really good. We were standing in the parking lot shooting the crap.

A carload of Hispanics pulls up (maybe 6-7) and starts yelling jibberish and acting aggressive.

Instantly, 7 guys turn to address threat, cover garmets get pulled back and we all went to a combat grip on our sidearms. Well, there came a chorus of "SSSHHHEEEEIIIIIIIIIITTTTTTTTTT!!!!!" and off they went.

We went back to a conversation of "what if" and "I had the best grouping!!!!"

I still get a laugh when I think of it.



Your story reminded me of an incident about 10-15 years ago in Africa(?) A competitive shooting team was returning from a match. They were in two vehicles, the coaches were in the lead vehicle, the team members were following at a distance in a van. The lead vehicle stopped at a stopsign, and several bad guys/organ donors jumped the car and forced the coaches out at gunpoint. The team saw it happening and got ready. The van pulls up, not too close, and the team members jump out and start firing. Dead bad guys and no injury to the good guys.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 8:58:31 PM EDT
BE- cause gangstas always got a 9mm in the movies, YO!
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 9:08:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Fast351:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
We were walking to our cars which were parked between 3rd and 4th on Milwaukee. We were crossing the street, mid-street, when a car came rushing down the street throwing us off our guard.



1) Draw weapon.
2) Move myself and wife/SO to cover


The next thing I knew I was standing chest to chest with a hispanic man, about 5 foot 9-10. He had grabbed my left arm, told me "this is serious" and I felt something in my abdomen.


3) As men approach, yell stop.
4) If continued, train front sight on center of mass

Refuse to be sheep people.

*sigh* I'm preaching to the chior here. My wife finally understands why I carry all the time now tho. All it took is for me to point out all the news with people assaulted in "nice" neighborhoods for a couple of years.




Couldnt that get you in alot of trouble? Just because they didnt stop is no reason to shoot them. Or are you saying just draw down on them till them stop?
Say if you at the point where your have a gun in your gut and they are demanding the money. You are carrying though. Whats the best move in this situation?
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 9:12:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BigB1129:

Originally Posted By Fast351:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
We were walking to our cars which were parked between 3rd and 4th on Milwaukee. We were crossing the street, mid-street, when a car came rushing down the street throwing us off our guard.



1) Draw weapon.
2) Move myself and wife/SO to cover


The next thing I knew I was standing chest to chest with a hispanic man, about 5 foot 9-10. He had grabbed my left arm, told me "this is serious" and I felt something in my abdomen.


3) As men approach, yell stop.
4) If continued, train front sight on center of mass

Refuse to be sheep people.

*sigh* I'm preaching to the chior here. My wife finally understands why I carry all the time now tho. All it took is for me to point out all the news with people assaulted in "nice" neighborhoods for a couple of years.




Couldnt that get you in alot of trouble? Just because they didnt stop is no reason to shoot them. Or are you saying just draw down on them till them stop?
Say if you at the point where your have a gun in your gut and they are demanding the money. You are carrying though. Whats the best move in this situation?



In theory action beats reaction. Grab the gun hand and move it off of you, then attack with your free hand.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 9:16:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:


In theory action beats reaction. Grab the gun hand and move it off of you, then attack with your free hand.



Would you say thats the best choice though? If I knew I was going to get shot, then I would go for it. But I know I may sound weak, I would rather give up my wallet and the little cash I have (hardly every carry around alot, use my credit card) then risk my life for it.
But if I saw it coming and was carrying, then things would be different.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 9:17:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BobP:


Your story reminded me of an incident about 10-15 years ago in Africa(?) A competitive shooting team was returning from a match. They were in two vehicles, the coaches were in the lead vehicle, the team members were following at a distance in a van. The lead vehicle stopped at a stopsign, and several bad guys/organ donors jumped the car and forced the coaches out at gunpoint. The team saw it happening and got ready. The van pulls up, not too close, and the team members jump out and start firing. Dead bad guys and no injury to the good guys.



I always love a happy ending.....

Good team work. I think I remember reading about this some time ago.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 4:53:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BigB1129:
Say if you at the point where your have a gun in your gut and they are demanding the money. You are carrying though. Whats the best move in this situation?



Few will agree on what to do next. We do a lot of knife/gun disarming drills in my dojo. I'd feel more confident if someone pulled a knife than a gun, but either way it isn't a good position to be in.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:33:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MudBug:
So how come these "Bad Guys" Drove up, but had to Run away?



Ding, Ding, Ding - we have a winner.

I bet you always aced the reading comprehension stuff on tests, huh?

CR
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:34:22 AM EDT
how did they know it was a 9mm?
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:36:05 AM EDT
I wonder if they will start carrying now?
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:37:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CR_OPSO:

Originally Posted By MudBug:
So how come these "Bad Guys" Drove up, but had to Run away?



Ding, Ding, Ding - we have a winner.

I bet you always aced the reading comprehension stuff on tests, huh?

CR



she never said they drove up...just that a car was rushing down the street and threw them off guard....
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:38:35 AM EDT
Concealed Carrry for me.

Max
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:38:46 AM EDT
she was clearly a lucky one, most of the time, and "obedient victim" gets hurt...
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:58:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:

Originally Posted By CR_OPSO:

Originally Posted By MudBug:
So how come these "Bad Guys" Drove up, but had to Run away?



Ding, Ding, Ding - we have a winner.

I bet you always aced the reading comprehension stuff on tests, huh?

CR



she never said they drove up...just that a car was rushing down the street and threw them off guard....



Ah, crap - It's too early and I haven't had my coffee yet.

CR
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:07:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
poor situational awareness.



Agreed, need to be aware of your surroundings. I have had several situations where I was clearly being "cased". A stop in the middle of the street with a long hard stare is all it usually takes. Once they know that it is going to be a good fight, whether they win or not they are going to get hurt, they will almost always find an easier target.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:17:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mikejohnson:
how did they know it was a 9mm?



I think she is pretty ignorant about firearms, and to her all semi-auto pistols are "9mms"
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 6:24:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FLGreg:

Originally Posted By shadowboxerone:

Originally Posted By thelastgunslinger:
When I looked down it was a silver 9mm.



How'd she know it was a 9mm? May seem like a sill question, but it popped in my head while reading it.



+1.

Friend of a friend, Silver 9mm yet doesn't give a detailed description of the assailants (other than a "hispanic man" and a "white male") and the trigger phrase -"Please pass this along to everyone you know and care about"????

We'll see this on Snopes in a week or so like the "good samaritan warns a female driver about the armed and dangerous man hiding in the back seat of her car" legend.



If you say so. I have no reason to doubt that this actually happened.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 8:28:09 AM EDT
personally this situation would scare the shit out of me.
if I act, it may mean the death of a close friend or loved one.
honestly though, how many of you could react when they have a gun trained on your wife/girlfriend/close friend?
Maybe I am just not trained well enough, but i would be very hesitant about how i react in a situation like this.
the lady said there were 2 guns in play right?
or just one guy had the gun?
don’t get me wrong though, if I saw an opportunity I would take it. I just would be very worried that I could possibly escalate the situation from a robbery to a murder of a lived one just because I acted. granted they could kill all 5 of the victims, but they also could just leave as they did do in this case.
what would you do if they did have a gun on you and the friend/family that is with you?
remove the weapon from the guy aiming at you if he is close enough then draw on the other guy and shoot him as fast as u can. if you shoot him anywhere but a kill shot wont he be able to shoot out of reflex/pain, meaning whoever he has his gun trained on is in a world of trouble?

as to the IDPA group, I would pay to see the gang bangers face when he shows his weapon expecting everyone to go slack jawed and bend to his wishes, but instead is faced with 7 pistols aimed at him by extremely well trained individuals.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 8:40:59 AM EDT


as to the IDPA group, I would pay to see the gang bangers face when he shows his weapon expecting everyone to go slack jawed and bend to his wishes, but instead is faced with 7 pistols aimed at him by extremely well trained individuals.



That would have been priceless to see
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 9:41:00 AM EDT
has that ever happened?
bad guy trys to rob the entireley wrong group of people...
IE a group of off duty police or IDPA folk?
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