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Posted: 8/1/2017 9:32:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/2/2017 8:03:44 AM EST by JRCmx]
I like the BRZ/GT86.

All the bitching about lack of power a little justified in some cases.

Why not stick the flat-six in there and bump it up to something like 300 RWH?

No turbo, leave it N/A.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 9:34:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By JRCmx:
I like the BRZ/GT86.

All the bitching about lack of power a little justified in some cases.

Why not stick the flat-six in there and bump it up to something like 300 RWH?

No turbo, leave it N/A.
View Quote


I like the way you think make the front end a foot longer, more wheelbase.

Do that and it would have the Silhouettes Of a old 60s European sports car
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 9:44:51 AM EST
I'd like to see that as well and it does fit. They should use the engine from the GT3 as a goal.

Sadly Subaru has proven they don't listen to their enthusiast base which is why the BRZ still has no turbo and why the STi is basically unchanged from the 2004 model.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 9:46:51 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 9:54:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By JRCmx:
I like the BRZ/GT86.
All the bitching about lack of power a little justified in some cases.
Why not stick the flat-six in there and bump it up to something like 300 RWH?
No turbo, leave it N/A.
View Quote
I like the design. They went super sporty with it, unlike the previous AE-86 Corolla. 
It's probably easier to put a turbo-charger in there, space-wise, for additional torque and horsepower. 
Maybe, there's some TRD version coming up with a supercharger or turbocharger. 
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 9:56:36 AM EST
Because Subaru has better things to do than try to increase the output of a poorly selling RWD Toyota.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:02:08 AM EST
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I'm starting to think the LS is the answer for everything. Porsche motor tired? LS swap.

Miata is a dog? LS

Subaru can't get out of its own way? LS.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:03:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2017 10:05:57 AM EST by Htown156]
Edit...wrong data
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:06:24 AM EST
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Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
Because Subaru has better things to do than try to increase the output of a poorly selling RWD Toyota.
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The best way to keep a low selling car is to leave it exactly how it is. Everyone says the same thing about the BRZ... NEEDS MORE POWER. Especially when you consider the WRX is cheaper then the BRZ and comes with AWD and Turbo.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:07:01 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Silverbulletz06:


The best way to keep a low selling car is to leave it exactly how it is. Everyone says the same thing about the BRZ... NEEDS MORE POWER. Especially when you consider the WRX is cheaper then the BRZ and comes with AWD and Turbo.
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why take away sales from the WRX?
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:07:46 AM EST
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Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
why take away sales from the WRX?
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Because they are separate cars for different people.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:10:52 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Once you buy the BRZ, then that kit with all the exhaust and ECU stuff, then an LS/trans you’ll be into it over $40k, not to mention all the work to cobble it together (or pay them another $5k to do it.) You might as well just buy a used Vette at that point.  
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:14:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2017 10:16:15 AM EST by Htown156]
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Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
why take away sales from the WRX?
View Quote
It doesn't work like that. Different markets. If that were the case GM never would have sold the GTO, Camaro, TA, G8, SS...etc because it would hurt Vette sales.

A 300+ HP BRZ would take sales from RWD cars from Subaru's competition. Right now the BRZ only competes with the Miata which is a niche market and it isn't doing that well considering there's no roadster option.

If Subaru wants to start moving the BRZ they need a convertible option and an STi version with at least 300hp.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:14:07 AM EST
Add supercharger. Done.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:14:51 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Silverbulletz06:


Because they are separate cars for different people.
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car manufacturers don't chase failed projects to keep a few hundred people happy.

Toyota gave up on it, and Subaru doesn't care for RWD cars, nor does it fit their US demographics.

There's no good way of stuffing AWD into it.

It's dead, Jim.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:14:57 AM EST
Can't wait until a LS-powered one shows up at a local Open Track Day!
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:15:24 AM EST
I don’t think the BRZ needs a turbo or even a ton more power. Rather than increase cost/complexity/weight they should just switch from the NA 2.0L engine to something like a 2.5L set up the same way. FIgure that gives you 250HP and doesn’t really add any weight or complexity or extra cost and 250HP in a 2700# car is pretty damn good at that price point. 
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:16:45 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Htown156:


It doesn't work like that. Different markets. If that were the case GM never would have sold the GTO, Camaro, TA, G8, SS...etc because it would hurt Vette sales.

A 300+ HP BRZ would take sales from RWD cars from Subaru's competition.
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I don’t think I’d ever point to GM and argue what they do is the optimal business strategy, especially since most of those cars failed their way out of the marketplace. 
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:17:01 AM EST
Because Toyota doesn't know how to put out an exciting product that delivers on HP since the 90s. A flat 6 would be great but the 3.6L is the only Subaru engine that you can draw from and they only put out like 250hp and weighs more, throwing off the balance.

They also won't do it because of the joint venture with BMW for the new Supra which will have an overly complicated BMW engine that is a maintenance hog and boring muted styling because it's Toyota. The worst of both worlds.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:17:33 AM EST
Put the wrx drivetrain in the brz
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:19:34 AM EST
Jackson Racing makes a supercharger that boosts 50%HP and 45% torque.

And it's somehow 50 state legal...
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:24:43 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
car manufacturers don't chase failed projects to keep a few hundred people happy.

Toyota gave up on it, and Subaru doesn't care for RWD cars, nor does it fit their US demographics.

There's no good way of stuffing AWD into it.

It's dead, Jim.
View Quote
Not Awd.

Leave it rwd and put the WRX or sti ENGINE in.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:29:45 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Silverbulletz06:


Not Awd.

Leave it rwd and put the WRX or sti ENGINE in.
View Quote
So now it’s 28xx pounds and $30k base price. 
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:30:16 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Market_Garden:
I don’t think I’d ever point to GM and argue what they do is the optimal business strategy, especially since most of those cars failed their way out of the marketplace. 
View Quote
OK. Then apply my argument to any other auto maker. It isn't restricted to sports cars either. Look how many different SUV's and crossovers Toyota or Mercedes sells that are all similar in size to things they already sell.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:31:28 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Market_Garden:
So now it’s 28xx pounds and $30k base price. 
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And still a better deal than a 370z.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:32:19 AM EST
I agree that could be cool. Subaru has made some decent 6 cylinder engines in the past. Maybe something like a 3.0 or 3.4 liter H-6 with direct injection and a throaty exhaust.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:33:35 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Silverbulletz06:
Because they are separate cars for different people.
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Originally Posted By Silverbulletz06:
Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
why take away sales from the WRX?
Because they are separate cars for different people.
Because RWD
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:34:48 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Htown156:
OK. Then apply my argument to any other auto maker. It isn't restricted to sports cars either. Look how many different SUV's and crossovers Toyota or Mercedes sells that are all similar in size to things they already sell.
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Originally Posted By Htown156:
Originally Posted By Market_Garden:
I don’t think I’d ever point to GM and argue what they do is the optimal business strategy, especially since most of those cars failed their way out of the marketplace. 
OK. Then apply my argument to any other auto maker. It isn't restricted to sports cars either. Look how many different SUV's and crossovers Toyota or Mercedes sells that are all similar in size to things they already sell.
Similar in size to cars they already sell? I don’t think the legions of soccer moms driving SUVs were ever seriously considering buying an E350 or whatever forgettable car Toyota sells. On the other hand the guy who wants a WRX or a BRZ probably isn’t looking at a totally different type of vehicle, so there’s a much higher chance of a more powerful BRZ cannibalizing a WRX sale than there is of some Mercedes SUV cannibalizing an E class sale. 
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:35:10 AM EST
You can add 120 hp for far less than an LS swap.


Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:36:15 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Htown156:
And still a better deal than a 370z.
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Originally Posted By Htown156:
Originally Posted By Market_Garden:
So now it’s 28xx pounds and $30k base price. 
And still a better deal than a 370z.
Perhaps, but that’s a pretty low target. 
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:42:43 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Market_Garden:
Similar in size to cars they already sell? I don’t think the legions of soccer moms driving SUVs were ever seriously considering buying an E350 or whatever forgettable car Toyota sells. On the other hand the guy who wants a WRX or a BRZ probably isn’t looking at a totally different type of vehicle, so there’s a much higher chance of a more powerful BRZ cannibalizing a WRX sale than there is of some Mercedes SUV cannibalizing an E class sale. 
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You're comparing SUVs to an Eclass which is a sedan and that has nothing to do with my point. Those are two different classes of vehicles. Walk into a Toyota dealer and count how many SUVs they sell or better yet a Jeep dealer. Subaru has very little market overlap in it's lineup. Sure some BRZturbo buyers might have bought an STi if the BRZturbo never existed but there's also people who may have bought a 370z, Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, Boxster, whatever RX8 successor is coming...etc. On top of that most of the parts needed to build the BRZturbo are already on the shelves at Subaru so adding another trim to cover more of the sports car market wouldn't cost them much.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:45:33 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Market_Garden:
Perhaps, but that’s a pretty low target. 
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OK then insert any RWD coupe you like under 40k. Still a better bang for the buck at 10k less.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:47:30 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Htown156:
You're comparing SUVs to an Eclass which is a sedan and that has nothing to do with my point. Those are two different classes of vehicles. Walk into a Toyota dealer and count how many SUVs they sell or better yet a Jeep dealer. Subaru has very little market overlap in it's lineup. Sure some BRZturbo buyers might have bought an STi if the BRZturbo never existed but there's also people who may have bought a 370z, Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, Boxster, whatever RX8 successor is coming...etc. On top of that most of the parts needed to build the BRZturbo are already on the shelves at Subaru so adding another trim to cover more of the sports car market wouldn't cost them much.
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Originally Posted By Htown156:
Originally Posted By Market_Garden:
Similar in size to cars they already sell? I don’t think the legions of soccer moms driving SUVs were ever seriously considering buying an E350 or whatever forgettable car Toyota sells. On the other hand the guy who wants a WRX or a BRZ probably isn’t looking at a totally different type of vehicle, so there’s a much higher chance of a more powerful BRZ cannibalizing a WRX sale than there is of some Mercedes SUV cannibalizing an E class sale. 
You're comparing SUVs to an Eclass which is a sedan and that has nothing to do with my point. Those are two different classes of vehicles. Walk into a Toyota dealer and count how many SUVs they sell or better yet a Jeep dealer. Subaru has very little market overlap in it's lineup. Sure some BRZturbo buyers might have bought an STi if the BRZturbo never existed but there's also people who may have bought a 370z, Mustang, Camaro, Challenger, Boxster, whatever RX8 successor is coming...etc. On top of that most of the parts needed to build the BRZturbo are already on the shelves at Subaru so adding another trim to cover more of the sports car market wouldn't cost them much.
I guess I wasn’t sure what your point was. In any case I don’t think you can compare shopping decisions for enthusiast cars to shopping decisions for generic SUVs bought for suburban housewives who likely don’t even know what an engine is. 
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:52:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2017 10:53:04 AM EST by Htown156]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Market_Garden:
I guess I wasn’t sure what your point was. In any case I don’t think you can compare shopping decisions for enthusiast cars to shopping decisions for generic SUVs bought for suburban housewives who likely don’t even know what an engine is. 
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The type of market is irrelevant. You are arguing that market overlap will hurt Subaru. I'm giving you examples of how most Automakers don't care about market overlap and they are doing fine. To prove my point I'll only look at enthusiast vehicles...look at BMW or Benz. Both have TONS of market overlap.

Besides if a specific market has 10 options and you own 1 you stand a better chance of making more money if you own 2 out of 11 options. Assuming of course you are smart with production costs.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:53:05 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Htown156:
OK then insert any RWD coupe you like under 40k. Still a better bang for the buck at 10k less.
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Originally Posted By Htown156:
Originally Posted By Market_Garden:
Perhaps, but that’s a pretty low target. 
OK then insert any RWD coupe you like under 40k. Still a better bang for the buck at 10k less.
Depends on what they sacrifice to get there. A small, light car with modest power and a reasonable price provides, to some people, a better value than a $40k Camaro or Mustang. I think a BRZ with 250HP that can maintain the 27xx weight it currently has and maintain the mid-high $20k price range is more appealing to more people than a heavier and more expensive version of the same car with what, 300HP? The people who really want that power can easily add it in the aftermarket at this point and Subaru can still offer the lighter and less expensive car with what they have now or if they put a larger displacement NA engine into it. 
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:57:36 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Market_Garden:
I guess I wasn’t sure what your point was. In any case I don’t think you can compare shopping decisions for enthusiast cars to shopping decisions for generic SUVs bought for suburban housewives who likely don’t even know what an engine is. 
View Quote
Generally it is like minivans wanting doo-dads and truck folks wanting to rating. Sports car people want cars that go fast. So a fast mustang, fast BRZ, and fast 370Z all jump in the same price point and from there it is a mix of issues. Like every other car cross shopping purchase in the history of car shopping.

Having a red n/a 200hp BRZ for the same price as the roughly 300hp AWD car is retarded. There isn't anything like use of CF to justify the difference. And this is where the enthusiast looks, sees the price, sees the mediocre performance specs, and generally shops elsewhere. Meanwhile what did it cost to fix the problem, an engine that is already being produced? Doesn't seem that much of a problem.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 10:58:44 AM EST
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Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
why take away sales from the WRX?
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The same turbo boxer in the 86 would have been my next car. Instead I bought a Z. Maybe the Supra rumors will get me to go back to Toyota. The WRX never entered into the equation. 
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 11:00:19 AM EST
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Originally Posted By outofbattery:
You can add 120 hp for far less than an LS swap.


http://cdn.speednik.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2015/10/2015-10-24_06-34-57.jpg
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What are the details on that?
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 11:02:03 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Silverbulletz06:


Generally it is like minivans wanting doo-dads and truck folks wanting to rating. Sports car people want cars that go fast. So a fast mustang, fast BRZ, and fast 370Z all jump in the same price point and from there it is a mix of issues. Like every other car cross shopping purchase in the history of car shopping.

Having a red n/a 200hp BRZ for the same price as the roughly 300hp AWD car is retarded. There isn't anything like use of CF to justify the difference. And this is where the enthusiast looks, sees the price, sees the mediocre performance specs, and generally shops elsewhere. Meanwhile what did it cost to fix the problem, an engine that is already being produced? Doesn't seem that much of a problem.
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I’m not saying they shouldn’t add power, just that they should do it in a way that maintains as much as possible the lightweight and reasonably priced nature of the car. Don’t forget, that 300HP car you talk about (let’s stick with Subaru and say it’s an STi) is $10k more expensive and 700 pounds heavier. 
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 11:02:33 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Market_Garden:
Depends on what they sacrifice to get there. A small, light car with modest power and a reasonable price provides, to some people, a better value than a $40k Camaro or Mustang. I think a BRZ with 250HP that can maintain the 27xx weight it currently has and maintain the mid-high $20k price range is more appealing to more people than a heavier and more expensive version of the same car with what, 300HP? The people who really want that power can easily add it in the aftermarket at this point and Subaru can still offer the lighter and less expensive car with what they have now or if they put a larger displacement NA engine into it. 
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I was advocating adding a turbo trim to the lineup, not completely ditching the current car. Sell the BRZ as it is now, the limited, and an STi trim with 300hp.

You're right people can mod their current car but a factory warranty is more appealing. Many modders wait until their warranty expires before modding.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 11:05:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2017 11:06:47 AM EST by TREETOP]
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 11:06:48 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Htown156:


I was advocating adding a turbo trim to the lineup, not completely ditching the current car. Sell the BRZ as it is now, the limited, and an STi trim with 300hp.

You're right people can mod their current car but a factory warranty is more appealing. Many modders wait until their warranty expires before modding.
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I could get behind that as an option, but I really don’t think there’s as much demand as some people assume (and I think much of that would be satisfied by a better NA engine.) 

I agree on the warranty too, I’m waiting until my power train warranty is done on my RS before I start playing with the engine. 
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 11:08:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2017 11:09:00 AM EST by GreenBastard]
Toyota doesn't give a shit about sports cars, and their 'sporty' Lexuses don't sell.

Subaru doesn't give a shit about a RWD Toyota with tanking sales.

They do fine with the WRX and STi and the rest of their customers beat down their doors to buy Outbacks.

The 86 is dead. Go get the new Mustang if you want a quick RWD car.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 12:40:23 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Market_Garden:
I could get behind that as an option, but I really don’t think there’s as much demand as some people assume (and I think much of that would be satisfied by a better NA engine.) 

I agree on the warranty too, I’m waiting until my power train warranty is done on my RS before I start playing with the engine. 
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Originally Posted By Market_Garden:
Originally Posted By Htown156:


I was advocating adding a turbo trim to the lineup, not completely ditching the current car. Sell the BRZ as it is now, the limited, and an STi trim with 300hp.

You're right people can mod their current car but a factory warranty is more appealing. Many modders wait until their warranty expires before modding.
I could get behind that as an option, but I really don’t think there’s as much demand as some people assume (and I think much of that would be satisfied by a better NA engine.) 

I agree on the warranty too, I’m waiting until my power train warranty is done on my RS before I start playing with the engine. 
I've read a lot of tales, as well as heard among my enthusiast friends, that the FRS/BRZ twins have some overheating issues when a turbo is slapped to them.

I think you're right, that the best method of increasing power in the twins is to shove a slightly larger (2.5) and to bump the HP/torque numbers just a bit. I've often said that at 250HP/210-230 torque, the car would be near perfect. 0-60 just needs to be in the mid 5 second range, doesn't need to be blistering fast.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 12:45:53 PM EST
It's not like Subaru has ever put a turbo on an FA20...
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 12:53:00 PM EST
The BRZ will match the performance of the Miata, which is its competitor.


There will not be a factory 300HP BRZ until there is a factory 300HP Miata.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 12:56:27 PM EST
There are a few imprezas around here with 3.6L legacy swaps. So I'm sure someone will try it.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 12:57:15 PM EST
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Originally Posted By MadProfessor:
The BRZ will match the performance of the Miata, which is its competitor.


There will not be a factory 300HP BRZ until there is a factory 300HP Miata.
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The Miata sales are tanking.

I don't even see them in California.

Nobody wants a tiny rear wheel drive car with mediocre engine output.

Just because there are forms of enthusiasts who seem to think that this is the best fucking thing since the invention of the wheel, doesn't mean the companies that make these things won't kill them because they aren't selling.

Toyota killed the FJ cruiser, an arguably much more successful vehicle for far less.

Scion is dead, Toyota USA makes passenger cars, trucks, and SUVs. It has no reason to sell a sports car.

Subaru makes all wheel drive vehicles, it has no reason to make a real wheel drive car.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 1:14:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/1/2017 1:20:56 PM EST by JBski]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
Because Subaru has better things to do than try to increase the output of a poorly selling RWD Toyota.
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Perhaps they wouldn't be so poorly selling if they had at least 300hp so as to be a competitive option when compared to other cars in its class?

ETA: The Miata is only a "competitor" due to the BRZ's lack of power, and even if you stretch that far, not really, because the Miata is a roadster, and the BRZ, isn't.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 1:18:07 PM EST
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Originally Posted By JBski:


Perhaps they wouldn't be so poorly selling if they had at least 300hp so as to be a competitive option when compared to other cars in its class?
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it just doesn't make sense from their sales strategy viewpoint. If they really wanted this to be a competitor, they would have engineered it so you can install an all wheel drivetrain and make more room for bigger and better engines.

Toyota wanted a rear wheel drive car, then they bailed on the project, and left Subaru hanging.

I went car shopping with a lady friend recently who was shopping a Mustang against the 86, and she drove the Ford first.

When she drove the 86, it was slower, handled poorly, and cost the same as the current generation Mustang, and all the dealer had to say was some subjective nonsense about the transmission or the handling, which was pure bullshit because the current generation mustang kicks the shit out of it in terms of price and power output.
Link Posted: 8/1/2017 1:33:13 PM EST
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Originally Posted By GreenBastard:
it just doesn't make sense from their sales strategy viewpoint. If they really wanted this to be a competitor, they would have engineered it so you can install an all wheel drivetrain and make more room for bigger and better engines.

Toyota wanted a rear wheel drive car, then they bailed on the project, and left Subaru hanging.

I went car shopping with a lady friend recently who was shopping a Mustang against the 86, and she drove the Ford first.

When she drove the 86, it was slower, handled poorly, and cost the same as the current generation Mustang, and all the dealer had to say was some subjective nonsense about the transmission or the handling, which was pure bullshit because the current generation mustang kicks the shit out of it in terms of price and power output.
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The base model Mustang throws down 100 more HP with 700lbs more weight. Homeboy looking for track days will go "wow, 700lbs sure is a lot!" as he tosses it into a tight corner, while normal people will stomp the go pedal and go "Wow, that 100hp sure makes a difference when I want to actually go fast!".

Due to how physics works, you could cut the "seat of the pants" advantage that the Ecoboost Mustang has with about 50-70 more HP, which can be easily done with a Turbo (or blower), which would add some weight, but not nearly enough to destroy whatever "balance" the car had. Of course, its real hard to spend another 5-8k on your new car just so it feels as fast as that Base Ecoboost Mustang that cost $5k less to start in the first place.

The problem with the BRZ (and the Miata) is that despite all of the bleating from the forum enthusiasts, they don't have enough power to be considered sports cars in the modern era, and their sales reflect this. Nobody wants a slow car that can turn fast, that's practically any FWD "sporty" car with decent tires.
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