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Posted: 1/4/2002 1:27:38 AM EDT
[url]http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-000000569jan03.story[/url] From Times Staff and Wire Reports A National Guardsman accidentally shot himself at San Francisco International Airport while trying to remove his gun from his holster. Louis E. Alvarez, a National Guard specialist, was going off duty about 11 p.m. Friday when the accident happened, according to Sgt. 1st Class Tom Jacobs. He was trying to make sure his M-9 pistol was clear of ammunition when he had trouble removing the gun from its holster and it went off. The shot went through his hip and exited at his buttocks. Alvarez was taken to a hospital and released Saturday afternoon. **************************************** Trouble removing the Gun??!! I guess if you put your hand around the grip and insert your finger in the trigger guard and pull real hard the pistol is supposed to come out, right? What the f*ck?
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 1:33:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 4:08:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2002 4:30:29 AM EDT by SomeGuyInAHat]
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: What kinda holster was that? Was it the new Threat Level V? So snatch-proof the wearer can't get the pistol out?
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Bianchi M-12. I don't know how you could have any trouble removing a weapon from this holster. Its a Level I holster at best. The scenario I'm imagining involves the Guardsman cycling the action of the weapon with safety off (hammer locks back, trigger pull drops to almost nothing) and then reholstering the weapon with his finger in the trigger guard. Gun goes bang, exactly as it was designed to do.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 4:25:28 AM EDT
OUCH! That's going to leave a mark. Cycle the action, remove the mag. Or was that remove the mag, cycle the action.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 4:35:16 AM EDT
Can somebody post of pic of the M-12? Here's a link, but for some reason our IT guy has our system blocking the site....(I think he needs his a$$ kicked.) [url]http://www.ammil.com/p0001068.htm [/url]
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:00:13 AM EDT
Since his head was up his buttocks, he's damn lucky he missed blowing his brains out...does he get a Purple Heart ? GIB ;{>
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:03:25 AM EDT
[img]http://www.bianchi-intl.com/images/prod_large/Military/UM84.jpg[/img] If operating this thing kicks (or shoots) your ass, you should not be around hot coffee or even those rounded off scissors they give schoolkids.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:15:34 AM EDT
Isn't this exactly the sort of accident that issuing a double action service pistol was supposed to prevent?
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:17:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: Isn't this exactly the sort of accident that issuing a double action service pistol was supposed to prevent?
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It's double/single action. Nothing is foolproof.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:17:50 AM EDT
Attempting to pull it out of the holster was just part of the cover story. He was actually told by several people over many years that his brain was in his ass. This event was a suicide attempt.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:25:44 AM EDT
I feel so much safer. And think ... Soon, the other people protecting us will be FEDERAL EMPLOYEES. Oh, Boy !!!
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:30:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: [img]http://www.bianchi-intl.com/images/prod_large/Military/UM84.jpg[/img] If operating this thing kicks (or shoots) your ass, you should not be around hot coffee or even those rounded off scissors they give schoolkids.
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Thanks Jarhead. I was almost positive that the holster I bought for my tac gear was an M-12, but I wanted to make [u]sure[/u] before I commented on the ND. HTF can you shoot yourself removing a pistol from one of these??? You can't even get your finger on the trigger until you pull the pistol out an inch or two. BTW - if anybody is looking for a good tac holster - these [b]are[/b] nice. Expensive, but nice. I had around $125 in the holster, hip extender & a 4 mag pouch.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:30:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE: I feel so much safer. And think ... Soon, the other people protecting us will be FEDERAL EMPLOYEES. Oh, Boy !!!
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The best part is that it will be the same people doing the same jobs, but on the federal payroll.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:56:12 AM EDT
Those are actually horrible holsters. You shouldn't have to undo flaps before you can get the pistol out. Wonder how much training they had?
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 6:00:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LE6920: Those are actually horrible holsters. You shouldn't have to undo flaps before you can get the pistol out. Wonder how much training they had?
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They're actually great holsters, for what they do. They're not LE holsters or CCW holsters, they're military holsters, whose primary purpose is not presentation, but retention of a large variety of firearms (M9, 1911, M11, etc.).
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 6:01:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By punkatomic: Trouble removing the Gun??!! I guess if you put your hand around the grip and insert your finger in the trigger guard and pull real hard the pistol is supposed to come out, right?
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That's not a trigger - its a holster release. Pull harder. [}:D]
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 6:12:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
Originally Posted By LE6920: Those are actually horrible holsters. You shouldn't have to undo flaps before you can get the pistol out. Wonder how much training they had?
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They're actually great holsters, for what they do. They're not LE holsters or CCW holsters, they're military holsters, whose primary purpose is not presentation, but retention of a large variety of firearms (M9, 1911, M11, etc.).
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I guess the presentation part really needed some work here.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 6:13:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LE6920: Those are actually horrible holsters. You shouldn't have to undo flaps before you can get the pistol out. Wonder how much training they had?
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It depends on what you're using the holster for. When I have my gear on, the sidearm is a secondary weapon and actually needing it would mean that I've exhausted 5 mags of .308's through a FAL. (In other words, I'd already be in deep sh!t!) I figure I'll have time to unsnap the holster with my right hand while I'm dropping my now-useless FAL with my left hand. I do agree that it would suck as duty holster for LEO's.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 6:21:02 AM EDT
I know this: No MPs I've ever seen wore an M12 holster on duty. With all the thousands of these holsters in supply, the MPs always wore Bianchi black gear with retention holsters, just like civilian LEOs.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 6:23:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SomeGuyInAHat: trigger pull drops to almost nothing
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You don't own a 92fs, do you? Besides the wierd(at least to me) way of getting the safty off, the trigger pull is my one complaint about the 92. It is no where near "nothing"!
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 6:33:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: I know this: No MPs I've ever seen wore an M12 holster on duty. With all the thousands of these holsters in supply, the MPs always wore Bianchi black gear with retention holsters, just like civilian LEOs.
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We must have hung out in different places. Since they were issued, I've never seen an MP that hasn't worn the Bianchi. Many of them have the black holsters with the black duty belt, but they were Bianchi's. In any case, the troops "guarding" our airports have, without an exception that I've seen, been wearing the M12. But, if I were an MP, I would certainly prefer a holster more attuned to retention and presentation than a standard issue combat holster.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 7:09:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By guns762:
Originally Posted By SomeGuyInAHat: trigger pull drops to almost nothing
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You don't own a 92fs, do you? Besides the wierd(at least to me) way of getting the safty off, the trigger pull is my one complaint about the 92. It is no where near "nothing"!
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I have owned two 96FSs. When the weapon went to single action, the trigger pull felt like almost nothing to me. YMMV
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 7:15:56 AM EDT
This guy will never live this one down. Oh man, I would hate to be him. His platoon is probably going to go out and design something like a bullet proof diaper or something and put it on him or give it to him when he gets back. YOu Know Kevlar reinforced in the ASS. TO FUNNY. Benjamin
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 7:20:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2002 7:21:57 AM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Originally Posted By SJSAMPLE:
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: I know this: No MPs I've ever seen wore an M12 holster on duty. With all the thousands of these holsters in supply, the MPs always wore Bianchi black gear with retention holsters, just like civilian LEOs.
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We must have hung out in different places.
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MCAS Yuma, AZ MCB Camp Kinser, Okinawa Japan MCB Camp Pendleton, CA MCRD San Diego, CA (just visiting!) If they were wearing a badge, they were wearing LEO black gear.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 7:21:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LE6920: Those are actually horrible holsters. You shouldn't have to undo flaps before you can get the pistol out. Wonder how much training they had?
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I've used those holsters several times on active duty and they're not too bad. You can get the flap off pretty quick and it keeps it very secure while in the field. As for the training these guys have with the M9, unless they are MPs, machine gunners, or officers, they have ZIP - ZERO - NADA. None. At the most, some staff NCO told them, OK, this is the safety, mag release, etc... when they handed them the weapon at the beginning of their shift. Dumbasses like this are the reasons why you see Guardsmen (oh, sorry, guardsPEOPLE) without live rounds or even mags in their weapons while on duty. Sadly, even our own troops cant be trusted with live ammo.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 7:24:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LE6920: Those are actually horrible holsters. You shouldn't have to undo flaps before you can get the pistol out.
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The flaps are to keep belly button lint out... Gib ;{> (fire for effect)
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 7:26:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gib187th: The flaps are to keep belly button lint out... Gib ;{> (fire for effect)
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Or buttcrack lint, in this guy's case...
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 7:33:09 AM EDT
I was listening to a local radio station concerning this event. A caller mentioned that he contacted the local recuiters and was told that [i]anyone from outside the US[/i] can become a Guardsman as long as they reside in this country and have a work visa or a green card. Anyone know about this? Maybe I'll need to call the recruiter today and find out for myself. sgtar15
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 7:35:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By gib187th: The flaps are to keep belly button lint out... Gib ;{> (fire for effect)
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Or buttcrack lint, in this guy's case...
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Ah ha! but not if you use "Crack Spackle (TM)" Anyone who saw the man show laast night knows what I'm talking about! [:)]
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 7:36:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By LE6920: Those are actually horrible holsters. You shouldn't have to undo flaps before you can get the pistol out.
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The flap can be replaced with a thumbreak for about $8. Probably not authorized for these folks, tho.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 7:39:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: I was listening to a local radio station concerning this event. A caller mentioned that he contacted the local recuiters and was told that [i]anyone from outside the US[/i] can become a Guardsman as long as they reside in this country and have a work visa or a green card. Anyone know about this? Maybe I'll need to call the recruiter today and find out for myself. sgtar15
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I'm not sure how it works, but I DO know that we had a guy in boot camp that could barely and I mean BARELY speak any english at all. I also met several more Marines later on that were from foreign countries.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 7:41:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: I was listening to a local radio station concerning this event. A caller mentioned that he contacted the local recuiters and was told that [i]anyone from outside the US[/i] can become a Guardsman as long as they reside in this country and have a work visa or a green card. Anyone know about this? Maybe I'll need to call the recruiter today and find out for myself.
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It's a fact. Our very own Hunter223 from Argentina is going through the process right now to join the US Army.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:14:09 AM EDT
Handgun training in the military is minimal at best. I was astounded to hear that some airports are being manned by Guardsmen armed solely with the M9, given the militarys lack of training on the weapon except for the officers and medics..... They should stick to giving the Guard guys the M16 they are more familiar with. Either that or provide some intensive training and give everyone BOTH an M16 and an M9.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:16:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SomeGuyInAHat:
Originally Posted By LE6920: Those are actually horrible holsters. You shouldn't have to undo flaps before you can get the pistol out.
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The flap can be replaced with a thumbreak for about $8. Probably not authorized for these folks, tho.
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Oh man, I can't believe I forgot about that. It's been too long since i read the manual. (Yes, the M-12 comes with an instruction manual!)
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:26:46 AM EDT
its also ambidexterouse, can be switched from side to side, and have a variety of attachments available. all and all they are pretty good for full size auto-loader retention and "agressive" apearance.. but arent very practical for combat and l/e..
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:31:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By the_survivalist: but arent very practical for combat and l/e..
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Depends on what kind of combat we're talking about. In my case, for an infantryman, it's very practical.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:35:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Death_By_AR15:
Originally Posted By the_survivalist: but arent very practical for combat and l/e..
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Depends on what kind of combat we're talking about. In my case, for an infantryman, it's very practical.
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You got that right. This holster is a vast improvement over the leather holsters used up until the mid 80's. Not too gimmicky, with a good solid fit. I used the thumb break strap in addition to the holster, as an added bit of protection. I still have 4 of these holsters in various configurations for field use.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 8:39:13 AM EDT
I got mine for $25 from an Army/Navy store going out of business. Homerun. At first I didn't like the flap. Seemed ungainly and hard to quickly operate. Then I purchased the thumbreak and I really liked it,it was quick and easy to remove the weapon from the holster. Then I took it to the field. Under field conditions(crawling, low crawling and general movement I found a few problems with the thumbreak strap. The strap compresseds the top of the holster and the M9 safety diengages to the firing position. While crawling the holster quckly fills with dirt, snow, pine needle bits and other crap. Also, after a 800 meter movement in knee deep sea water, I found my weapon trigger guard deep in salt water. On went the flap, I practiced with it and have become more proficient with it and I'm happy with it. Sherm
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 9:09:03 AM EDT
I WEAR ONE OF THESE!!! They do their job, hold the damn weapon. I for one, think he is a fool. Even the people who are scared of guns here don't have a problem unholstering the weapon and checking to see if it's clear. What an idiot. It's true, you release the flap with your thumb, and only the grip is availiable for you to grab. It almost forces you to keep your index finger out of the trigger guard to take the weapon out of the holdster. How do you manage to shoot yourself? Hell if I know. I would say almost on purpose (especially with the safety on).
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 9:16:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ET3_SurfaceWar: How do you manage to shoot yourself? Hell if I know. I would say almost on purpose (especially with the safety on).
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That and the fact that the M9 has such a long double action trigger pull. You have to be EXTREMELY reckless to have a AD.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 9:18:46 AM EDT
What about the part in the article that states "...he had trouble removing the gun from its holster and it went off." In this culture of ours that refuses to accept responsibility for our actions, again we hear that when it comes to guns, guns somehow have the innate ability of accidentally "going off".
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 9:20:31 AM EDT
[img]http://home.hiwaay.net/~thefanns/images/Bfirewater.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 9:35:57 AM EDT
Disclaimer--I am not attempting to defend the dumb ass Guardsman who blew his ass off! My MP Guard Unit did a two week rotation in Vicenzia Italy, now we got issued different holsters while we were there. I don't know what kind, but they sucked. It had a weapon retention system thay just retained the weapon to much. It took serveral tries to get the weapon out, and I saw one guy's holster it would take 2 people to get the gun out. Before you start blaming user error, most of us (not me though) are LEO's in cilivan life, and most of us are gun nuts so we are familar with holsters. We were always joking about what would happen if we needed to use them (Don't shoot, give me a minute to get my gun out!) Anyways, maybe this guy got one of those, of course even with that it doesn't excuse him before being a dumbass. I believe the pistols are supposed to be carry in condition 3, safety on, no round in chamber. That's the way it always is with us.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 9:56:17 AM EDT
I got out the old web gear and the trusty M9, it was suprisingly diffcult to get a shot to the ass lined up. If he was returning the weapon to the holster after a quick draw demostration in the mirror, he may have smacked the barrel into the flap and pulled the trigger while trying to shove the gun into the holster. This was the only way I came up with of shooting from the hip to the ass. Sounds like somebody was playing OK Corral.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 10:11:53 AM EDT
"He was sitting, twirling his gun, Butterfinger Irving gunned himself down. Dead Irving Dead Dead Irving Dumb Dumb Dead Irving the 129 fastest gun in The West." Old Dr. Demento song. I heard during Vietnam War people would shoot themselves in the foot to get out. Think he's trying to get out of being a guardsman?
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 10:21:28 AM EDT
Geez, and I thought the most dangerous time when dealing with a holster was when you [i]insert[/i] the weapon, not when you remove it.[>:/]
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 11:19:21 AM EDT
I'm not too far from San Francisco and was watching the local news report on this. They were talking to the Guardsman's Lt. who said that they were not authorized to carry with a round in the chamber. This guys has some explaining to do once he recuperates (ie - can sit without the donut My wife and I were laughing a bit when we saw this. We were imagining the guy "struggling" with his holster.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 12:06:17 PM EDT
Good to know we have Forrest Gump protecting the Kalifornians at SFO. But then he "got shot in the buttocks."
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 12:26:57 PM EDT
If the NG is there to protect us from terrorists, who's going to protect us from this guy?
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:01:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sgtar15: I was listening to a local radio station concerning this event. A caller mentioned that he contacted the local recuiters and was told that [i]anyone from outside the US[/i] can become a Guardsman as long as they reside in this country and have a work visa or a green card. Anyone know about this? Maybe I'll need to call the recruiter today and find out for myself. sgtar15
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We had non-citizens with green cards going through Basic with me years ago. My old unit had several foreign Nationals serving in it.
Link Posted: 1/4/2002 5:07:24 PM EDT
Geee, My work place feels much safer already. Thank god that they do not patrol on my aircrafts.
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