Okay, first of all there is no issue with lens availability.  The 20D and 30D (and the Digital Rebel XT and original Digital Rebel) can use EF/S lenses and other lenses designed to work with crop sensors (sensors smaller than a 35mm film negative) but they can also use all other Canon EOS AutoFocus lenses as well.  Regular film cameras, the Canon 1-series pro digital SLRs and the 5D cannot use the EF/S lenses.
Both the 20D and 30D are excellent cameras for the hobbyist.  Used 20Ds in great shape are selling for under $900 now so that's a great deal, but the 30D is not that expensive and has a lot going for it too, such as spot metering and a larger LCD screen.
As for 5D and full frame:  the advantage of full frame is that it allows you to use excellent lenses at the focal length for which they were designed, making them more versatile.  For instance, the 50mm f1.4 is an excellent lense, but with a crop camera it's too long to be used as a general walkaround.  With a full frame, it's the perfect walkaround zoom.
Or take the 70-200 f2.8.  With a crop camera, it's utility is basically restricted to close wildlife or else medium-distance sports photography.  With a full frame, it's also a great natural light portrait zoom and can be used to isolate parts of the landscape for great landscape shots especially in low light.
I have the 5D and a used 20D as a backup and I would definitely reccomend the 5D...it's an excellent camera with incredible low-light performance.
Hope this answers some of your questions.  If you want to see some shots with the 5D, check out my shots and illikelegs shots in the tacked thread.

Quoted: Okay, first of all there is no issue with lens availability.  The 20D and 30D (and the Digital Rebel XT and original Digital Rebel) can use AF/S lenses and other lenses designed to work with crop sensors (sensors smaller than a 35mm film negative) but they can also use all other Canon EOS AutoFocus lenses as well.  Regular film cameras, the Canon 1-series pro digital SLRs and the 5D cannot use the AF/S lenses.

EF, EF-S.    Other than that, what he said...

Quoted: So don't bother with getting the EF/S lenses if you get a 30D or 20D in case you upgrade, just get standard Canon lenses and use them on the 20D/30D? No opinion on the Nikon 200D? btw, I have read the above threads and seems as though the proponents of either are usually the owners. I don't see canon guys wishing they had bought Nikon or vice versa.

I wouldn't avoid the EF/S lenses, per se.  You can easily sell/trade the lenses.  In fact, the best deals on lenses are often on used ones.  I'd reccommend the Buy/Sell board at www.fredmiranda.com ---I've got several screaming bargains on used lenses there.
And some of the EF/S lenses are quite nice, particularly the 10-22.
I have never even held a Nikon D200, but I have read in reviews that it is not as good at high ISOs as the 20/30/5D.  I really think that basically one camera/lens system is as good as the other...EXCEPT that Canon is a MUCH larger company and thus Canon's R&D budget for digital cameras is as big as Nikon's entire BUDGET.  That means that Canon is going to come out with more groundbreaking technology first, for the most part.

Quoted: Quoted: Okay, first of all there is no issue with lens availability.  The 20D and 30D (and the Digital Rebel XT and original Digital Rebel) can use AF/S lenses and other lenses designed to work with crop sensors (sensors smaller than a 35mm film negative) but they can also use all other Canon EOS AutoFocus lenses as well.  Regular film cameras, the Canon 1-series pro digital SLRs and the 5D cannot use the AF/S lenses. EF, EF-S.    Other than that, what he said...

Thanks, fixed it.

I have the D200 after selling my KM 5d recently.  I sold it for the exact same reason you did.  

Take a hard look at the D200 it is a really good camera.  I also do a lot of outdoor work and use the SB-800 flash for fill.  

I looked at both the Canon line and the Nikon before making a decision.  One of the biggest factors other than the technical is if it felt good in my hands.  After handling the D200 I was not as comforatable with the Canons.  Its a lot like handling guns in the fun store.  

Let me know if you have specific questions or want to see some sample pics from the camera.

Quoted: Fredmiranda is a pretty knowledgable site.  Those guys do make mountains out of mole hills.

In that way, they're a lot like gun guys.  

I got a D200 a couple of weeks ago and have not regretted it since

Great camera
Perfect balance between pro level camera and consumer level price

Quoted: I could probably scrape enough together for a 5D, but what is the true win with full frame DSLR?

Full frame gives you  good wide angle coverage, because the image is not cropped down. That and the slightly better high ISO performance due to the larger sensor. Oh and it is mega-expensive. Using the legendary lenses from either company on a crop camera usuall just entails taking a few steps back. An earlier post mentioned the 70-200 being too long for outdoor portaits, however I have not had this problem. I think it is perfect for outdoor portraits. I would definitely forgo the 5D for now and get one of the less expensive cameras and get glass, unless you abosolutely need full frame.

I would take a hard look at the D200. In my opinion, superior ergonomics. If you don't like using your camera, then why would you? The high ISO performance between the D200 and 30D is insignificant. The flash control system from Nikon is definitely better than Canon.

If you do decide to go Nikon, you would be set if you got the three kings. For film: the 17-35mm, 28-70mm, and 70-200mm. For digital: the 12-24mm, 17-55mm, and the 70-200.

Lens availability is no issue for either system, however fast lenses cost a pretty penny. For either system, a 70-200 lens will cost upwards of 1500 with the longer lenses costing even more. Canon has the advantage that if you don't need the f/2.8, they offer many of the long lenses in a slower version (f/4.0). A Canon 300mm f/4 prime lens is around $1200.

Quoted: Want a nice one (aka no plastic bodies)

Whats wrong with the plastic bodies? The Nikon D70 feels just as solid as the 20D or D200. It just doesn't have as much heft to it.

Quoted: Full frame gives you  good wide angle coverage, because the image is not cropped down. That and the slightly better high ISO performance due to the larger sensor. Oh and it is mega-expensive. Using the legendary lenses from either company on a crop camera usuall just entails taking a few steps back.

Well, no.  It actually doesn't.  There's these little details called perspective and depth of field to consider.

An earlier post mentioned the 70-200 being too long for outdoor portaits, however I have not had this problem. I think it is perfect for outdoor portraits. I would definitely forgo the 5D for now and get one of the less expensive cameras and get glass, unless you abosolutely need full frame.

And I would definitely buy the 5D if he has the disposable income to do so and no reason not to.

I would take a hard look at the D200. In my opinion, superior ergonomics. If you don't like using your camera, then why would you? The high ISO performance between the D200 and 30D is insignificant. The flash control system from Nikon is definitely better than Canon.

I prefer Canon ergonomics myself...never cared for the placement of the controls on Nikon.
And yes, the high ISO performance will be significantly better in the 30D and definitely in the 5D.  The Nikon has a faster flash sync.



Whats wrong with the plastic bodies? The Nikon D70 feels just as solid as the 20D or D200. It just doesn't have as much heft to it.

And won't take as much abuse.

Quoted: Well, no.  It actually doesn't.  There's these little details called perspective and depth of field to consider.

Have you ever seen a photo where the perspective is dependent on a full frame camera? The perspective effect lessens as you get into longer focal lengths. It is most noticeable in wideangle photography which I mentioned as an advantage for the 5D. Sensor size does not have a direct relation to DOF. If you have a cropped camera and a full frame camera next to each other with the same lens, the DOF will be the same. Once you add a longer lens to make the framing of both cameras the same, DOF will be different, By changing the focal length or aperture, you change the DOF, not by changing sensor size.

And I would definitely buy the 5D if he has the disposable income to do so and no reason not to.

And I would too, but not as a first camera. Of course I would have all the lenses that I would want first.

I prefer Canon ergonomics myself...never cared for the placement of the controls on Nikon. And yes, the high ISO performance will be significantly better in the 30D and definitely in the 5D.  The Nikon has a faster flash sync.

A hard core Canonite? Compare all the camera images on DPReview and tell me that there is a supersignificant difference. You can tell a difference if you look closely. The difference is more noticeable at ISO 3200 between the 30D and D200. If you expose correctly, the difference is even less. The 5D has the best low-light performance, but I wasn't debating that. Regarding the flash, the D200 sync speed is the same at 1/250. With the TTL metering and flash control, Nikon is superior. Even the most devout Canon user admits that. The difference in preferences is why I suggest going to a store to handle each one.

And won't take as much abuse.

Shouldn't we be careful with our equipment anyways? I don't speak for anybody else, but I don't abuse my equipment. If you drop any modern camera, it may or may not survive. The metal ones may hold up better to abuse, but the D70 and D50 still hold their own. Consider that many National Geographic photos are taken by the D70.

Quoted: .Have you ever seen a photo where the perspective is dependent on a full frame camera?

I've seen plenty of photos where perspective is dependant on the position of the photographer.

Regarding the flash, the D200 sync speed is the same at 1/250. With the TTL metering and flash control, Nikon is superior. Even the most devout Canon user admits that.

I was doing just that...but I was of the impression that the D200 had a faster flash sync speed.  Guess I was overestimating it.

Shouldn't we be careful with our equipment anyways?

We should try, but my equipment goes some pretty rough places with me.

Sylvan, if you've already spent the money on good lenses from Minolta, Sony are officially taking over warrantee support for the current Minolta DSLR's and they will also be releasing new DSLR's in the future using the current Minolta lens mount.

I've you're going to change over to another brand that's fine, but Minolta equipment isn't dead and buried yet.

Quoted: Sensor size does not have a direct relation to DOF. If you have a cropped camera and a full frame camera next to each other with the same lens, the DOF will be the same. Once you add a longer lens to make the framing of both cameras the same, DOF will be different, By changing the focal length or aperture, you change the DOF, not by changing sensor size.

In theory but not in practice.  For instance I mostly shoot fashion and portraits with the Canon 85mm f1.2 on a full frame camera (1DsII) because it gives me the ultimate in control of DOF.  Using, cropped sensor body, what am I going to use?  The 50mm f1.0 isn't even made any more and was a dog when it was.  Many higher end portrait photographers like Martin Schoeller use LF film cameras still just for the ability to control DOF.

Consider that many National Geographic photos are taken by the D70.

source?

Quoted: Quoted: .Have you ever seen a photo where the perspective is dependent on a full frame camera? I've seen plenty of photos where perspective is dependant on the position of the photographer.

+1

I shoot at 16mm f2.8 all the time.  Can't get the same perspective/DOF combo with a non FF camera.

Quoted: In theory but not in practice.  For instance I mostly shoot fashion and portraits with the Canon 85mm f1.2 on a full frame camera (1DsII) because it gives me the ultimate in control of DOF.  Using, cropped sensor body, what am I going to use?  The 50mm f1.0 isn't even made any more and was a dog when it was.  Many higher end portrait photographers like Martin Schoeller use LF film cameras still just for the ability to control DOF.

Can somebody post a direct photo comparison between a full frame camera and crop camera? Same focal lenght lens, same settings, same distance, etc. I would do it, but I don't have access to a FF camera (yes I sold my film cameras).

Not trying to turn this into a FF vs. Cropped. I think that they are two different formats for different groups (which I mentioned that if he felt like he needed FF, then go for it). It's like 35mm vs. MF.

Consider that many National Geographic photos are taken by the D70. source?

Just flip through the National Geographic website.

Here's a link to get you started:
www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0601/feature5/gallery1.html

One more thing to consider is what you plan on doing with the camera.  

I shoot both a 20D (1.6 crop) and a 5d (full-frame). My walk-around lens and body is the 5D with the 24-70 2.8.  I use the 20D primarily for telephoto lenses; it usually has the 70-200 2.8 on it (with an effective focal range of 112-320).

I have a wide variety of lenses, ranging from fast primes to long telephoto, and depending upon what I'm shooting a specific combination of lens and body will deliver better results than if I was more limited in my choices.