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Posted: 2/16/2012 6:57:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2012 10:56:37 AM EDT by 0ldGuy]
I will take this a step further that this student did and say NO worship songs of any type belong in a public school.



http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/02/15/colorado-student-reportedly-quits-choir-over-islamic-song/

A Colorado high school student says he quit the school choir after an Islamic song containing the lyric "there is no truth except Allah" made it into the repertoire.

James Harper, a senior at Grand Junction High School in Grand Junction, put his objection to singing "Zikr," a song written by Indian composer A.R. Rahman, in an email to Mesa County School District 51 officials. When the school stood by choir director Marcia Wieland's selection, Harper said, he quit.

"I don’t want to come across as a bigot or a racist, but I really don’t feel it is appropriate for students in a public high school to be singing an Islamic worship song,” Harper told KREX-TV. "This is worshipping another God, and even worshipping another prophet ... I think there would be a lot of outrage if we made a Muslim choir say Jesus Christ is the only truth."

Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:03:52 AM EDT
I don't have a problem with this but on the other hand, there are a lot of classical chorale works that are done by Bach, Handel, and others that were sacred in content that we did when I was in high school. I would hate to think that all those would have to be pulled.

Creates some tension. I don't think I would want to sing praise to "allah".

Patrick
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:04:13 AM EDT
I though you were banned?
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:04:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2012 7:07:12 AM EDT by ttushooter]
Eh, whatever floats his boat. I sang in choir in college and we did a concert of pieces of church music. I was more about the historical impact of music of the church from that time period than of the subject of the song itself. I was actually surprised the choir director chose it as he was atheist. But they we're good pieces of music.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:06:29 AM EDT
Interesting story. Wonder how the usual suspects will react to this one.

1) Will the "I'm offended by every mention of god in schools" crowd get buthurt over this and demand that the singing of songs referencing the god of islam be stopped immediately?
2) Will the "we need to force children to talk about god in schools" crowd defend the choir saying "oh well, he didn't like it, he left, I see no problem...let the choir do whatever it wants?"



Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:07:23 AM EDT
He did the right thing...I'm sure people would be wailing in the streets if a Muslim was asked to sing Christmas Carols in a school play
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:07:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By patsue:
I don't have a problem with this but on the other hand, there are a lot of classical chorale works that are done by Bach, Handel, and others that were sacred in content that we did when I was in high school. I would hate to think that all those would have to be pulled.

Creates some tension. I don't think I would want to sing praise to "allah".

Patrick


How long ago were you in school and were there lyrics to the effect or just instrumentals? There is an assault on Christianity and if the government is going to
object to Christmas decorations or fixtures then Islamic items need to be included.

I am glad to see a High School Senior standing up for his beliefs. Apathy is what has gotten us where we are today.


Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:12:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By scootr29:
I though you were banned?



I thought I was too, then I found out I was only in Kansas.

Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:14:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2012 7:14:58 AM EDT by Zaphod]
Originally Posted By scootr29:
I though you were banned?


Wishful thinking.





Of course, see the notable lack of outrage by the MSM and the usual liberal suspects to this story.

If they had been forced to sing "Onward Christian Soldiers", all hell would be breaking loose.

In before CAIR sues and wins due to "discrimination".
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:15:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:
I think there would be a lot of outrage if we made a Muslim choir say Jesus Christ is the only truth.



that would be interesting
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:16:07 AM EDT
Just wait till a muslim quits due to singing Jewish and Christian music. That will end up being a huge deal.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:16:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2012 7:18:39 AM EDT by DuBri]


First thing that popped to mind *shrug*

ETA: I wouldn't be surprised if getting caught with a copy of this album in the wrong country might earn you a good stoning
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:17:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Billmanweh:
Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:
I think there would be a lot of outrage if we made a Muslim choir say Jesus Christ is the only truth.



that would be interesting

Heads would roll.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:19:42 AM EDT
Again the only way to prevent this strife is to give parents choice when it comes to where they send their kids to school.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:28:05 AM EDT
As a music educator, the whole point of the music in our repertoire is to further the students understanding of music through a variety of styles, nationalities, periods, and languages. This means that religious music does come into the rep, usually older music from the classical or romantic periods, but sometimes also newer music AS LONG AS IT HAS AN EDUCATIONAL PURPOSE. The bigger question for this particular piece is did the teacher have a reason for teaching the piece (middle-eastern harmonies/rhythms, new accompaniment instruments, culture, etc.) or did the teacher select it to push the beliefs of Islam?

I personally don't like some of the 20th century compositions that have been made that are serialized or atonal, but they are important to include to create a well-rounded program.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:35:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BlacksheepEG:
As a music educator, the whole point of the music in our repertoire is to further the students understanding of music through a variety of styles, nationalities, periods, and languages. This means that religious music does come into the rep, usually older music from the classical or romantic periods, but sometimes also newer music AS LONG AS IT HAS AN EDUCATIONAL PURPOSE. The bigger question for this particular piece is did the teacher have a reason for teaching the piece (middle-eastern harmonies/rhythms, new accompaniment instruments, culture, etc.) or did the teacher select it to push the beliefs of Islam?

I personally don't like some of the 20th century compositions that have been made that are serialized or atonal, but they are important to include to create a well-rounded program.


get out of here you, with your knowledge and reason. We all know choir are just so a perfect blend of races genders and sexual orientation can sing show tunes and choral renditions of top 40 hits so it can be shown in prime time on the FOX network.

Bah!
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:38:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fire_medic:
Originally Posted By patsue:
I don't have a problem with this but on the other hand, there are a lot of classical chorale works that are done by Bach, Handel, and others that were sacred in content that we did when I was in high school. I would hate to think that all those would have to be pulled.

Creates some tension. I don't think I would want to sing praise to "allah".

Patrick


How long ago were you in school and were there lyrics to the effect or just instrumentals? There is an assault on Christianity and if the government is going to
object to Christmas decorations or fixtures then Islamic items need to be included.

I am glad to see a High School Senior standing up for his beliefs. Apathy is what has gotten us where we are today.




This has been awhile ago, back in the early 80's. But I have a Music education degree and my wife accompanies choirs and I have seen sacred classical chorale music sung by public school choirs at competitions recently.

Patrick
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:40:02 AM EDT
"I will take this a step further that this student did and say NO worship songs of any type belong in a public school. "

Amen.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:40:32 AM EDT
I agree completely, what the fuck is a public school choir singing about islam or any religion.

Whoever made the choice of that song should be fired... period.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:42:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2012 7:44:27 AM EDT by patsue]
Originally Posted By zulthor:
I agree completely, what the fuck is a public school choir singing about islam or any religion.

Whoever made the choice of that song should be fired... period.


You are going to have a hard time being a good educator if you take that attitude.

Most music of the baroque period was "religious" music of the church especially Chorale music. Everything Bach wrote was "to the glory of God" by his own pen.

Is a well rounded music education served by ignoring an entire period of music- A period when tons of music theory was explored, worked out, and implemented?

I don't think so.

Starting to sound like the Soviet Union before the fall of the iron curtain around here.

Patrick
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:46:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BlacksheepEG:
As a music educator, the whole point of the music in our repertoire is to further the students understanding of music through a variety of styles, nationalities, periods, and languages. This means that religious music does come into the rep, usually older music from the classical or romantic periods, but sometimes also newer music AS LONG AS IT HAS AN EDUCATIONAL PURPOSE. The bigger question for this particular piece is did the teacher have a reason for teaching the piece (middle-eastern harmonies/rhythms, new accompaniment instruments, culture, etc.) or did the teacher select it to push the beliefs of Islam?

I personally don't like some of the 20th century compositions that have been made that are serialized or atonal, but they are important to include to create a well-rounded program.


Would you
a) make a distinction between listening to music and performing the music?
b) allow a student to sit out a piece they weren't comfortable with?
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:52:02 AM EDT
For those saying no songs that mention god, what about "god bless America" and other patriotic songs? What about other potentially offensive themes, like ghosts for halloween programs and songs about animals behaving as people? Christmas carols? Oh Hanukkah? What about non musical instruction? Do we skip Hiawatha because there's mention of religion? Do we skip teaching the constitution?

I'm an atheist, but avoiding all songs with any mention of religion in them seems silly. They're just songs.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:53:21 AM EDT
I suspect that most people will support this kids decision because it was Allah.

Had it been a Christian song we would be seeing the typical, "This is why our youth are troubled, they are getting further and further away from God."
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:55:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:
For those saying no songs that mention god, what about "god bless America" and other patriotic songs? What about other potentially offensive themes, like ghosts for halloween programs and songs about animals behaving as people? Christmas carols? Oh Hanukkah? What about non musical instruction? Do we skip Hiawatha because there's mention of religion? Do we skip teaching the constitution?

I'm an atheist, but avoiding all songs with any mention of religion in them seems silly. They're just songs.


Good to see you around. I though you had left this little mental institution known as Ar15.com
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:55:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
I suspect that most people will support this kids decision because it was Allah.

Had it been a Christian song we would be seeing the typical, "This is why our youth are troubled, they are getting further and further away from God."


I think most would support him because if it was the other way around he'd be backed by the ACLU etc.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:58:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chadthirty:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
I suspect that most people will support this kids decision because it was Allah.

Had it been a Christian song we would be seeing the typical, "This is why our youth are troubled, they are getting further and further away from God."


I think most would support him because if it was the other way around he'd be backed by the ACLU etc.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Don't confuse him with facts. His hatred of religion and all those who subscribe to one is well known and all that matters to him.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:58:36 AM EDT
Why all the drama llama? He should have simply said he didn't want to sing this one, and the school should have said o.k., sit this one out.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 7:59:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Originally Posted By Chadthirty:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
I suspect that most people will support this kids decision because it was Allah.

Had it been a Christian song we would be seeing the typical, "This is why our youth are troubled, they are getting further and further away from God."


I think most would support him because if it was the other way around he'd be backed by the ACLU etc.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Don't confuse him with facts. His hatred of religion and all those who subscribe to one is well known and all that matters to him.


Ironically, you're (and a few others) the one I was thinking about when I wrote that.

Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:00:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Originally Posted By Chadthirty:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
I suspect that most people will support this kids decision because it was Allah.

Had it been a Christian song we would be seeing the typical, "This is why our youth are troubled, they are getting further and further away from God."


I think most would support him because if it was the other way around he'd be backed by the ACLU etc.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Don't confuse him with facts. His hatred of religion and all those who subscribe to one is well known and all that matters to him.


So do you support this kids decision?

Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:01:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ttushooter:
Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:
For those saying no songs that mention god, what about "god bless America" and other patriotic songs? What about other potentially offensive themes, like ghosts for halloween programs and songs about animals behaving as people? Christmas carols? Oh Hanukkah? What about non musical instruction? Do we skip Hiawatha because there's mention of religion? Do we skip teaching the constitution?

I'm an atheist, but avoiding all songs with any mention of religion in them seems silly. They're just songs.


Good to see you around. I though you had left this little mental institution known as Ar15.com


I missed y'all. I'm just taking a little vacation in Arfland. I have to get back to the real world soon though.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:02:21 AM EDT
Allah=God=Yahweh


if it was a song praising Muhammad I could understand
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:05:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By patsue:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
I agree completely, what the fuck is a public school choir singing about islam or any religion.

Whoever made the choice of that song should be fired... period.


You are going to have a hard time being a good educator if you take that attitude.

Most music of the baroque period was "religious" music of the church especially Chorale music. Everything Bach wrote was "to the glory of God" by his own pen.

Is a well rounded music education served by ignoring an entire period of music- A period when tons of music theory was explored, worked out, and implemented?

I don't think so.

Starting to sound like the Soviet Union before the fall of the iron curtain around here.

Patrick


First, I'm not an educator, so I won't have a hard time being an educator.

Second If people want to have religious music in schools, have at it, in a private school. My constitution has an establishment clause... you know that thing that prevents the government from doing things that support the establishment of a religion.

Also my founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson famously wrote about the the separation between church and state.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:07:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By patsue:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
I agree completely, what the fuck is a public school choir singing about islam or any religion.

Whoever made the choice of that song should be fired... period.


You are going to have a hard time being a good educator if you take that attitude.

Most music of the baroque period was "religious" music of the church especially Chorale music. Everything Bach wrote was "to the glory of God" by his own pen.

Is a well rounded music education served by ignoring an entire period of music- A period when tons of music theory was explored, worked out, and implemented?

I don't think so.

Starting to sound like the Soviet Union before the fall of the iron curtain around here.

Patrick


First, I'm not an educator, so I won't have a hard time being an educator.

Second If people want to have religious music in schools, have at it, in a private school. My constitution has an establishment clause... you know that thing that prevents the government from doing things that support the establishment of a religion.

Also my founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson famously wrote about the the separation between church and state.

yep, fuck culture and learning



Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:14:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Originally Posted By Chadthirty:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
I suspect that most people will support this kids decision because it was Allah.

Had it been a Christian song we would be seeing the typical, "This is why our youth are troubled, they are getting further and further away from God."


I think most would support him because if it was the other way around he'd be backed by the ACLU etc.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Don't confuse him with facts. His hatred of religion and all those who subscribe to one is well known and all that matters to him.


So do you support this kids decision?



I do, just the same as I would support a Muslim (or any other) who didn't want to sing a Christian (or other) song.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:16:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2012 8:17:01 AM EDT by RRA_223]
I don't really see the problem: teacher made a selection, student objected on religious principles and chose to not participate. No one was beaten, beheaded, or honor-killed for blasphemy.

And no, we don't need to cater to, or humor every freaking form of religion or belief structure known to man. In a school district where 90+% of the students and family likely share judeo-christian backgrounds... I think we could afford to hire more "culturally sensitive" music directors to prevent this from being an issue in the future - you know, before someone gets the idea that praising Stalin or bragging about Mao is such a great fucking idea for high school choir.

Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:18:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:
I thought I was too, then I found out I was only in Kansas.

Ugh, that's even worse!
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:28:46 AM EDT
It is one thing to sing a song with a religious foundation, but since music is typically VERY important to the Judeo-Christian religion as an expression of faith or devotion, lyrics that include "there is no truth but Allah" very clearly, in my opinion creates a conflict of interest that should be avoided despite any educational value.

Separation of church and state should be applied within reason and this, IMO is one case where the separation needs to exist.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:31:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By patsue:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
I agree completely, what the fuck is a public school choir singing about islam or any religion.

Whoever made the choice of that song should be fired... period.


You are going to have a hard time being a good educator if you take that attitude.

Most music of the baroque period was "religious" music of the church especially Chorale music. Everything Bach wrote was "to the glory of God" by his own pen.

Is a well rounded music education served by ignoring an entire period of music- A period when tons of music theory was explored, worked out, and implemented?

I don't think so.

Starting to sound like the Soviet Union before the fall of the iron curtain around here.

Patrick


First, I'm not an educator, so I won't have a hard time being an educator.

Second If people want to have religious music in schools, have at it, in a private school. My constitution has an establishment clause... you know that thing that prevents the government from doing things that support the establishment of a religion.

Also my founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson famously wrote about the the separation between church and state.

yep, fuck culture and learning





People would say that, and are OK with it when their kids are learning about Christianity, but then freak out when their child brings home a handbook about Islam.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:33:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/16/2012 8:33:57 AM EDT by NUCdt04]

Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By patsue:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
I agree completely, what the fuck is a public school choir singing about islam or any religion.

Whoever made the choice of that song should be fired... period.


You are going to have a hard time being a good educator if you take that attitude.

Most music of the baroque period was "religious" music of the church especially Chorale music. Everything Bach wrote was "to the glory of God" by his own pen.

Is a well rounded music education served by ignoring an entire period of music- A period when tons of music theory was explored, worked out, and implemented?

I don't think so.

Starting to sound like the Soviet Union before the fall of the iron curtain around here.

Patrick


First, I'm not an educator, so I won't have a hard time being an educator.

Second If people want to have religious music in schools, have at it, in a private school. My constitution has an establishment clause... you know that thing that prevents the government from doing things that support the establishment of a religion.

Also my founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson famously wrote about the the separation between church and state.

yep, fuck culture and learning





People would say that, and are OK with it when their kids are learning about Christianity, but then freak out when their child brings home a handbook about Islam.

people's heads would explode if they knew I kept Islamic prayer beads in my Christian bible





and they were given to me by a *gasp* Muslim!!!



learning about something different than your set of beliefs doesn't make you a bad person- just a more informed consumer
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:33:24 AM EDT
IBTF (In Before The Fatwa)

and from his comment....

"This is worshipping another God, and even worshipping another prophet ...


it sounds like he would be fine with a song praising Jesus being sung in school.

and as Old Guy said...

NO worship songs of any type belong in a public school.

Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:37:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Originally Posted By Chadthirty:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
I suspect that most people will support this kids decision because it was Allah.

Had it been a Christian song we would be seeing the typical, "This is why our youth are troubled, they are getting further and further away from God."


I think most would support him because if it was the other way around he'd be backed by the ACLU etc.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Don't confuse him with facts. His hatred of religion and all those who subscribe to one is well known and all that matters to him.

Wait, the "facts" you are talking about, is the idea that one should abandon all logic, reason and consistency and oppose it simply because liberals support it?



Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:41:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By patsue:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
I agree completely, what the fuck is a public school choir singing about islam or any religion.

Whoever made the choice of that song should be fired... period.


You are going to have a hard time being a good educator if you take that attitude.

Most music of the baroque period was "religious" music of the church especially Chorale music. Everything Bach wrote was "to the glory of God" by his own pen.

Is a well rounded music education served by ignoring an entire period of music- A period when tons of music theory was explored, worked out, and implemented?

I don't think so.

Starting to sound like the Soviet Union before the fall of the iron curtain around here.

Patrick


First, I'm not an educator, so I won't have a hard time being an educator.

Second If people want to have religious music in schools, have at it, in a private school. My constitution has an establishment clause... you know that thing that prevents the government from doing things that support the establishment of a religion.

Also my founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson famously wrote about the the separation between church and state.

yep, fuck culture and learning





People would say that, and are OK with it when their kids are learning about Christianity, but then freak out when their child brings home a handbook about Islam.

people's heads would explode if they knew I kept Islamic prayer beads in my Christian bible





and they were given to me by a *gasp* Muslim!!!



learning about something different than your set of beliefs doesn't make you a bad person- just a more informed consumer



I completely agree. However, I don't think it would work that way in our Christian dominated society. People would love to say that kids should be taught about religion in school to be better informed, but their heads would explode when they found out it was not only Christianity but Islam. Look at all the hatred Islam receives from our local Christian members here on this site.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:44:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
*snip*



I completely agree. However, I don't think it would work that way in our Christian dominated society. People would love to say that kids should be taught about religion in school to be better informed, but their heads would explode when they found out it was not only Christianity but Islam. Look at all the hatred Islam receives from our local Christian members here on this site.

I grew up learning about Christianity and Judaism.... Islam wasn't on the radar at the time... Didn't change my views on Christianity but, did expand my world views. The best way to know what you believe in is to learn what others think is true.... don't know why that's hard to understand.


Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:45:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By patsue:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
I agree completely, what the fuck is a public school choir singing about islam or any religion.

Whoever made the choice of that song should be fired... period.


You are going to have a hard time being a good educator if you take that attitude.

Most music of the baroque period was "religious" music of the church especially Chorale music. Everything Bach wrote was "to the glory of God" by his own pen.

Is a well rounded music education served by ignoring an entire period of music- A period when tons of music theory was explored, worked out, and implemented?

I don't think so.

Starting to sound like the Soviet Union before the fall of the iron curtain around here.

Patrick


First, I'm not an educator, so I won't have a hard time being an educator.

Second If people want to have religious music in schools, have at it, in a private school. My constitution has an establishment clause... you know that thing that prevents the government from doing things that support the establishment of a religion.

Also my founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson famously wrote about the the separation between church and state.

yep, fuck culture and learning





People would say that, and are OK with it when their kids are learning about Christianity, but then freak out when their child brings home a handbook about Islam.


That's quite a broad brush. A public school shouldn't be sending religious materials of any kind, IMHO. Some people tend to forget the whole "freedom of religion" vs "freedom from religion"; this is America, worship or don't worship....freely.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:47:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chadthirty:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By patsue:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
I agree completely, what the fuck is a public school choir singing about islam or any religion.

Whoever made the choice of that song should be fired... period.


You are going to have a hard time being a good educator if you take that attitude.

Most music of the baroque period was "religious" music of the church especially Chorale music. Everything Bach wrote was "to the glory of God" by his own pen.

Is a well rounded music education served by ignoring an entire period of music- A period when tons of music theory was explored, worked out, and implemented?

I don't think so.

Starting to sound like the Soviet Union before the fall of the iron curtain around here.

Patrick


First, I'm not an educator, so I won't have a hard time being an educator.

Second If people want to have religious music in schools, have at it, in a private school. My constitution has an establishment clause... you know that thing that prevents the government from doing things that support the establishment of a religion.

Also my founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson famously wrote about the the separation between church and state.

yep, fuck culture and learning





People would say that, and are OK with it when their kids are learning about Christianity, but then freak out when their child brings home a handbook about Islam.


That's quite a broad brush. A public school shouldn't be sending religious materials of any kind, IMHO. Some people tend to forget the whole "freedom of religion" vs "freedom from religion"; this is America, worship or don't worship....freely.

so you're saying world history classes should have 0 lessons on religion


I'm not saying they should dictate which is right and which is wrong - or which to follow.... but to learn the background and premise behind world religions is what I'd call a solid education
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:49:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Chadthirty:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By patsue:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
I agree completely, what the fuck is a public school choir singing about islam or any religion.

Whoever made the choice of that song should be fired... period.


You are going to have a hard time being a good educator if you take that attitude.

Most music of the baroque period was "religious" music of the church especially Chorale music. Everything Bach wrote was "to the glory of God" by his own pen.

Is a well rounded music education served by ignoring an entire period of music- A period when tons of music theory was explored, worked out, and implemented?

I don't think so.

Starting to sound like the Soviet Union before the fall of the iron curtain around here.

Patrick


First, I'm not an educator, so I won't have a hard time being an educator.

Second If people want to have religious music in schools, have at it, in a private school. My constitution has an establishment clause... you know that thing that prevents the government from doing things that support the establishment of a religion.

Also my founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson famously wrote about the the separation between church and state.

yep, fuck culture and learning





People would say that, and are OK with it when their kids are learning about Christianity, but then freak out when their child brings home a handbook about Islam.


That's quite a broad brush. A public school shouldn't be sending religious materials of any kind, IMHO. Some people tend to forget the whole "freedom of religion" vs "freedom from religion"; this is America, worship or don't worship....freely.


I agree with you, just speaking hypotheticially for discussion purposes.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:50:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By Chadthirty:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By patsue:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
I agree completely, what the fuck is a public school choir singing about islam or any religion.

Whoever made the choice of that song should be fired... period.


You are going to have a hard time being a good educator if you take that attitude.

Most music of the baroque period was "religious" music of the church especially Chorale music. Everything Bach wrote was "to the glory of God" by his own pen.

Is a well rounded music education served by ignoring an entire period of music- A period when tons of music theory was explored, worked out, and implemented?

I don't think so.

Starting to sound like the Soviet Union before the fall of the iron curtain around here.

Patrick


First, I'm not an educator, so I won't have a hard time being an educator.

Second If people want to have religious music in schools, have at it, in a private school. My constitution has an establishment clause... you know that thing that prevents the government from doing things that support the establishment of a religion.

Also my founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson famously wrote about the the separation between church and state.

yep, fuck culture and learning





People would say that, and are OK with it when their kids are learning about Christianity, but then freak out when their child brings home a handbook about Islam.


That's quite a broad brush. A public school shouldn't be sending religious materials of any kind, IMHO. Some people tend to forget the whole "freedom of religion" vs "freedom from religion"; this is America, worship or don't worship....freely.

so you're saying world history classes should have 0 lessons on religion


I'm not saying they should dictate which is right and which is wrong - or which to follow.... but to learn the background and premise behind world religions is what I'd call a solid education


Who decides how much detail they go into about the respective religions?

Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:53:01 AM EDT
It's perfectly acceptable for school bands/chorals to perform music with religious origins. It's also acceptable for students to sit out for those pieces if it makes them uncomfortable.

It's a little disturbing how many people are willing to sacrifice scholarship because they can't discern the difference between freedom of religion and freedom from religion.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:54:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By Chadthirty:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By patsue:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
I agree completely, what the fuck is a public school choir singing about islam or any religion.

Whoever made the choice of that song should be fired... period.


You are going to have a hard time being a good educator if you take that attitude.

Most music of the baroque period was "religious" music of the church especially Chorale music. Everything Bach wrote was "to the glory of God" by his own pen.

Is a well rounded music education served by ignoring an entire period of music- A period when tons of music theory was explored, worked out, and implemented?

I don't think so.

Starting to sound like the Soviet Union before the fall of the iron curtain around here.

Patrick


First, I'm not an educator, so I won't have a hard time being an educator.

Second If people want to have religious music in schools, have at it, in a private school. My constitution has an establishment clause... you know that thing that prevents the government from doing things that support the establishment of a religion.

Also my founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson famously wrote about the the separation between church and state.

yep, fuck culture and learning





People would say that, and are OK with it when their kids are learning about Christianity, but then freak out when their child brings home a handbook about Islam.


That's quite a broad brush. A public school shouldn't be sending religious materials of any kind, IMHO. Some people tend to forget the whole "freedom of religion" vs "freedom from religion"; this is America, worship or don't worship....freely.

so you're saying world history classes should have 0 lessons on religion


I'm not saying they should dictate which is right and which is wrong - or which to follow.... but to learn the background and premise behind world religions is what I'd call a solid education


No, I didn't mean it in that sense, I agree with what you're saying. I meant more along the lines of it being all or nothing.
Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:57:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AKengineer:

Originally Posted By Billmanweh:
Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:
I think there would be a lot of outrage if we made a Muslim choir say Jesus Christ is the only truth.



that would be interesting

Heads would roll.



what you did there, i sees it


Link Posted: 2/16/2012 8:58:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chadthirty:
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By Chadthirty:
Originally Posted By HoodyHoo21:
Originally Posted By NUCdt04:

Originally Posted By zulthor:
Originally Posted By patsue:
Originally Posted By zulthor:
I agree completely, what the fuck is a public school choir singing about islam or any religion.

Whoever made the choice of that song should be fired... period.


You are going to have a hard time being a good educator if you take that attitude.

Most music of the baroque period was "religious" music of the church especially Chorale music. Everything Bach wrote was "to the glory of God" by his own pen.

Is a well rounded music education served by ignoring an entire period of music- A period when tons of music theory was explored, worked out, and implemented?

I don't think so.

Starting to sound like the Soviet Union before the fall of the iron curtain around here.

Patrick


First, I'm not an educator, so I won't have a hard time being an educator.

Second If people want to have religious music in schools, have at it, in a private school. My constitution has an establishment clause... you know that thing that prevents the government from doing things that support the establishment of a religion.

Also my founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson famously wrote about the the separation between church and state.

yep, fuck culture and learning





People would say that, and are OK with it when their kids are learning about Christianity, but then freak out when their child brings home a handbook about Islam.


That's quite a broad brush. A public school shouldn't be sending religious materials of any kind, IMHO. Some people tend to forget the whole "freedom of religion" vs "freedom from religion"; this is America, worship or don't worship....freely.

so you're saying world history classes should have 0 lessons on religion


I'm not saying they should dictate which is right and which is wrong - or which to follow.... but to learn the background and premise behind world religions is what I'd call a solid education


No, I didn't mean it in that sense, I agree with what you're saying. I meant more along the lines of it being all or nothing.

ah, check...


as far as how much I'd assume it's going to be up to the school district.... short of prayer in class I don't think I'd mind my kid learning as long as they're portrayed equally.... (I know with Christianity that's going to be pretty hard.... )

maybe the main religions only?


beats me... I'd have to see the curriculum to comment on it
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