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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/25/2005 9:44:26 AM EDT
Is a MK4 British Sterling 9mm SMG safe to carry with a EMPTY chamber, loaded mag , safety off, bolt foward?

Is this SMG able to slam fire if the bolt is partly retracted and allowed to go foward and strip and chamber a round (without the trigger pulled)?

I know this was a problen on the Sten Gun , M3 Grease Gun , and others , but how about the Sterling?

(I know I could Google this , but asking you'all is more fun)
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:53:56 AM EDT
Para,how did you find that?
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 9:58:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 9:59:56 AM EDT by TacticalStrat]
That's a problem for any open-bolt gun that doesn't have a ratchet safety mechanism in the cocking handle (like the Uzi SMG). Basically, when cocking an open-bolt gun, there is a point after the bolt-face passes a live round and before the bolt engages the sear. If your hand slips off the cocking knob before the sear engages the bolt and after the bolt face passes the live round, the bolt will fly forward, pick up a round and fire it.

I don't recall ever reading that the Sterling has a ratchet safety mechanism on the cocking handle/knob. Off hand, the Uzi is the only SMG that I know of that has this ratchet safety mechanism.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 10:00:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
That's a problem for any open-bolt gun that doesn't have a ratchet safety mechanism in the cocking handle (like the Uzi SMG). Basically, when cocking an open-bolt gun, there is a point after the bolt-face passes a live round and before the bolt engages the sear. If your hand slips off the cocking knob before the sear engages the bolt and after the bolt face passes the live round, the bolt will fly forward, pick up a round and fire it.

I don't recall ever reading that the Sterling has a ratchet safety mechanism on the cocking handle/knob.



Didn't this fact come screaming to fhe forefront for the Israelis when they lost a huge number of men, officers mostly, IIRC, when this happened to them IIRC again, dismounting choppers?

Link Posted: 8/25/2005 10:10:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 3-gun:
Para,how did you find that?



3-gun , my buddy,
I was going to wait till I had a chance to post a pic to tell you'all but what the hell.
I had to bail out of my ride the other day very quickly and my damm M4 got hung up and I almost busted my ass. I said to myself "Self , you'z need you a lap gun"
SOOO , today I broke down and bought me a like new , cherry , MK4 Sterling for the grand sum of $200.
Now before you have a fit about "what a great deal" that is , it only came with one mag!
And of course I can not ever bring it home
Normal deal here gun w/ many mags for two bills , but I figured what the hell, this one is LNIB.
I'll get some pics posted over on the Survival Forum as soon as I can.
Our Internet here sucks for downloards.
(O' by the way for those that do not know me I am a Contractor in Iraq)
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 10:17:25 AM EDT
the l2a3 sterling doesn't have a fixed firing pin like the sten. i don't think it'll fire. but i'm definitely no expert.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 10:45:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
That's a problem for any open-bolt gun that doesn't have a ratchet safety mechanism in the cocking handle (like the Uzi SMG). Basically, when cocking an open-bolt gun, there is a point after the bolt-face passes a live round and before the bolt engages the sear. If your hand slips off the cocking knob before the sear engages the bolt and after the bolt face passes the live round, the bolt will fly forward, pick up a round and fire it.

I don't recall ever reading that the Sterling has a ratchet safety mechanism on the cocking handle/knob.



Didn't this fact come screaming to fhe forefront for the Israelis when they lost a huge number of men, officers mostly, IIRC, when this happened to them IIRC again, dismounting choppers?





Not sure, but it makes sense. I should have added that many SMG's can accidentally fire in the same way if dropped/jarred on the butt if the bolt is forward, the safety off, and a loaded mag inserted. The UZI SMG has a grip safety that must be squeezed before the bolt can be retracted. The combination of the grip safety and ratchet, eliminates this safety issue if the weapon is dropped or the bolt slips during cocking.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 10:54:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By CITADELGRAD87:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
That's a problem for any open-bolt gun that doesn't have a ratchet safety mechanism in the cocking handle (like the Uzi SMG). Basically, when cocking an open-bolt gun, there is a point after the bolt-face passes a live round and before the bolt engages the sear. If your hand slips off the cocking knob before the sear engages the bolt and after the bolt face passes the live round, the bolt will fly forward, pick up a round and fire it.

I don't recall ever reading that the Sterling has a ratchet safety mechanism on the cocking handle/knob.



Didn't this fact come screaming to fhe forefront for the Israelis when they lost a huge number of men, officers mostly, IIRC, when this happened to them IIRC again, dismounting choppers?





Not sure, but it makes sense. I should have added that many SMG's can accidentally fire in the same way if dropped/jarred on the butt if the bolt is forward, the safety off, and a loaded mag inserted. The UZI SMG has a grip safety that must be squeezed before the bolt can be retracted. The combination of the grip safety and ratchet, eliminates this safety issue if the weapon is dropped or the bolt slips during cocking.



Yup, I think so. I meant pre Uzi Israeli SMGs, which means Stens and the like, I'd guess. With that comment, now my statement makes more sense, and also explains why the Uzi has the grip safety, assuming I'm recalling the story correctly.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 11:06:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hardcorps1775:
the l2a3 sterling doesn't have a fixed firing pin like the sten. i don't think it'll fire. but i'm definitely no expert.




I have never examined a Sterling, but I believe it does fire from an open bolt. The majority of open bolt SMG's have the firing pin either machined into the bolt face, or they have a replaceable fixed firing pin (like the MP40). Regardless of the type of firing pin, if it fires from an open-bolt, then it's gonna discharge the round if the bolt slams home on a live cartridge.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 11:18:27 AM EDT
From the 5th Edition of "Military Small Arms of the World"

"There is an integral firing pin and a means of ensuring that it lines up with the primer only at the moment of firing, which is a useful safety measure."

Shrug.

G
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 11:20:34 AM EDT
Para, the Sterling will do that.
Double check, I know the safety is mounted on the left side of the pistol grip, does it lock the bolt forward? I'll check my reference library later tonight and IM you if I can.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 1:59:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By glock23carry:
From the 5th Edition of "Military Small Arms of the World"

"There is an integral firing pin and a means of ensuring that it lines up with the primer only at the moment of firing, which is a useful safety measure."

Shrug.

G




Sounds like that means the bolt face is dished out to not allow the firing pin to strike the primer during feeding. Or possibly it's like a Thomson 1921, whereas when the bolt closes it strikes a lever at the last 1/8" of bolt travel, which forces the firing pin to strike the primer.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 2:06:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 2:07:15 PM EDT by glock23carry]
TS,

From the blurb at the bottom, it would appear you're correct:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_submachine_gun

Still, not very clear how it is done.

However, assuming it does line up once it is chambered, a slam fire is a reasonable result.

G
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 2:33:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Para069:
Is a MK4 British Sterling 9mm SMG safe to carry with a EMPTY chamber, loaded mag , safety off, bolt foward?

Is this SMG able to slam fire if the bolt is partly retracted and allowed to go foward and strip and chamber a round (without the trigger pulled)?

I know this was a problen on the Sten Gun , M3 Grease Gun , and others , but how about the Sterling?

(I know I could Google this , but asking you'all is more fun)



All of the MK4 Sterlings I've played with couldn't load a full magazine with the bolt in the closed position. And, par for the course, most tube-receiver SMGs have simple safety mechanisms too. yikes.

This is how I load a Sterling, direction, check safe and clear, the weapon should end up in the SEMI position with the bolt locked back.

Return the safety selector lever to SAFE

Load a full magazine.

The Sterling is a blowback operated weapon that fires from the open-bolt, By the way the bolt is VERY heavy for such a small weapon. They're basically one of the reasons the term "Slam-Fire" exists.

Just a side-note, I watched a Kurdish officer fignore the forend stops and let his finger wander too close to the ejection port. The bolt bit off a good-sized part of his pinky finger.

I just kept wondering if he just was ignoring the feeling of hot brass hitting his fingers or what....
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 2:35:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
If your hand slips off the cocking knob before the sear engages the bolt and after the bolt face passes the live round, the bolt will fly forward, pick up a round and fire it.



BTDT

Link Posted: 8/25/2005 3:32:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/25/2005 3:37:47 PM EDT by TacticalStrat]

Originally Posted By tweeter:

Originally Posted By Para069:
Is a MK4 British Sterling 9mm SMG safe to carry with a EMPTY chamber, loaded mag , safety off, bolt foward?

Is this SMG able to slam fire if the bolt is partly retracted and allowed to go foward and strip and chamber a round (without the trigger pulled)?

I know this was a problen on the Sten Gun , M3 Grease Gun , and others , but how about the Sterling?

(I know I could Google this , but asking you'all is more fun)



All of the MK4 Sterlings I've played with couldn't load a full magazine with the bolt in the closed position. And, par for the course, most tube-receiver SMGs have simple safety mechanisms too. yikes.

This is how I load a Sterling, direction, check safe and clear, the weapon should end up in the SEMI position with the bolt locked back.

Return the safety selector lever to SAFE

Load a full magazine.

The Sterling is a blowback operated weapon that fires from the open-bolt, By the way the bolt is VERY heavy for such a small weapon. They're basically one of the reasons the term "Slam-Fire" exists.

Just a side-note, I watched a Kurdish officer fignore the forend stops and let his finger wander too close to the ejection port. The bolt bit off a good-sized part of his pinky finger.

I just kept wondering if he just was ignoring the feeling of hot brass hitting his fingers or what....




I'm not following what you mean about "slam fire" with an open-bolt SMG. All the SMG's that I know of that fire from an open-bolt are supposed to fire when the bolt closes. The gun is cocked by pulling the bolt back and it stays back until you pull the trigger. You pull the trigger and the bolt closes, picking up a round and firing it as soon as the bolt closes.

A slam-fire is an accidental discharge that results from feeding a round into the chamber of a weapon that fires from a CLOSED-Bolt, and having that weapon fire as soon as the bolt shuts because of an out of the ordinary and unintentional mechanical condition.


Possibly I just misunderstand your meaning and if so, I apologize.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 11:54:04 PM EDT
Just got back fom the range and gave the Sterling a good workout.
Heres the deal.

You can not pull the bolt back with the safety on.

And YES! The Sterling will fire if the safety is off in the semi or fullauto position , finger OFF the trigger and the bolt is retracted enough to fly foward and strip and chamber a round.

Its a shame that on the redesign from the Sten to Sterling the Brits did not fix this issue.

I shot it mainly with the the stock folded as my main plan for this weapon is as a "Lap" gun for those quick bailouts while running the streets.
I will have the stock folded to reduce the overal length and have to room to move.
Bringing the weapon up to eye level , thrust out position I had no trouble keep 3-5 round burst on target at 25 meters. Beyond 25 meters and the groups start to open up. Not enough to prevent some body hit but, enough to throw a few rounds past any target.
The weapon is very quick into action once I got the safety movement down.
Not real crazy about the hugh ejection port just being wide open to dirt,etc , but it must be OK and function even if a lot of crud gets in , thats the way it was designed. Still wish it had a ejection port cover like a M16 series.
I think the next range trip I am going to interduce some dirt into the port and see the results.

With the stock extended it becomes useful out to 100 meters plus , but I will always chose my M4 for general use if given a choice.
For $200 bucks I'm Happy
Thanks for all replys
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:55:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By tweeter:

Originally Posted By Para069:
Is a MK4 British Sterling 9mm SMG safe to carry with a EMPTY chamber, loaded mag , safety off, bolt foward?

Is this SMG able to slam fire if the bolt is partly retracted and allowed to go foward and strip and chamber a round (without the trigger pulled)?

I know this was a problen on the Sten Gun , M3 Grease Gun , and others , but how about the Sterling?

(I know I could Google this , but asking you'all is more fun)



All of the MK4 Sterlings I've played with couldn't load a full magazine with the bolt in the closed position. And, par for the course, most tube-receiver SMGs have simple safety mechanisms too. yikes.

This is how I load a Sterling, direction, check safe and clear, the weapon should end up in the SEMI position with the bolt locked back.

Return the safety selector lever to SAFE

Load a full magazine.

The Sterling is a blowback operated weapon that fires from the open-bolt, By the way the bolt is VERY heavy for such a small weapon. They're basically one of the reasons the term "Slam-Fire" exists.

Just a side-note, I watched a Kurdish officer fignore the forend stops and let his finger wander too close to the ejection port. The bolt bit off a good-sized part of his pinky finger.

I just kept wondering if he just was ignoring the feeling of hot brass hitting his fingers or what....




I'm not following what you mean about "slam fire" with an open-bolt SMG. All the SMG's that I know of that fire from an open-bolt are supposed to fire when the bolt closes. The gun is cocked by pulling the bolt back and it stays back until you pull the trigger. You pull the trigger and the bolt closes, picking up a round and firing it as soon as the bolt closes.

A slam-fire is an accidental discharge that results from feeding a round into the chamber of a weapon that fires from a CLOSED-Bolt, and having that weapon fire as soon as the bolt shuts because of an out of the ordinary and unintentional mechanical condition.


Possibly I just misunderstand your meaning and if so, I apologize.



I was just trying to say be careful with the gun... they have notoriously weak actions on them. If you have the bolt locked back and keep the safety off (for some reason, like between shots for example) the bolt might release itself, strip, load and fire a round (or more, yikes). The bolt is extremely heavy for this size weapon and the action is underbuilt for it (my opinion).

Just keep using the safety religiously and you'll be fine. I safe between shots anyway with an M4, since you'll probably be moving between shots. Safing is a little more work with a Mk4 since you have to pull the safety back with your thumb, but I'd make especially sure that I did with this thing.

I should have just written what I just did... the first time around. Sorry, I confuse myself too sometimes.
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